Weihnachts-Oratorium BWV 248 - General Discussions

Continue from Part 6

Gardiner's Christmas Oratorio

Josh Klasinski wrote (January 17, 2007):
This past Christmas and indeed over the entire holiday season reaching up to the present I have had the immense pleasure of becoming intimately acquainted with what is certainly one of Bach's most fully realized and extraordinary works, the Christmas Oratorio.

What a joy it has been delving into this music and as always constantly being surprised and moved by this affectionate display of Bach's greatest loves in life, music and his faith. One is hard pressed to encounter a more masterfully sculpting of each piece into a mighty and marvelous musical edifice in the oratorio output both before and after Bach. Again Bach's gift and musical prowess which IMHO could only have come from God, is on full display with this work. Those chorales never cease to move and inspire, it is as if Bach is conversing directly with the Heavens through these beautiful affiances of choir and instrument. To say that each Christmas will not be complete without this work is no exagerration. Gardiner and his troupe perform with a gentle benevolence which the text and music demand. If anyone has any tidbits of info or interesting compositional remarks regarding the Oratorio please feel free...Was this work used in performance proliferately in Bach's time and after...say in the 19th century with the Bach revival did this oratorio recieve much attention?

Just another Bach work to add to the lifetime of wonderment, study and enjoyment a music lover is compelled to undertake.

Thomas Braatz wrote (January 17, 2007):
Josh Klasins wrote:
>>If anyone has any tidbits of info or interesting compositional remarks regarding the Oratorio please feel free...<<
Read Simon Heighes article on the WO in the "Oxford Composer Companions: J.S. Bach", Oxford University Press, 1999.

>>Was this work used in performance proliferately in Bach's time and after...say in the 19th century with the Bach revival did this oratorio recieve much attention?<<

The NBA KB indicates that, without a doubt, additional performances of the WO or at least parts of it took place during Bach's lifetime. No firm dates, however, can be given as to when this did occur. It is possible that CPE Bach used a modified version of the introductory chorus for part 1 in his Easter music in 1778. CPE Bach had all of the original parts and the autograph score in his possession (they were never separated from each other during his lifetime). If CPE Bach did use them for other performances which seems unlikely, he might have selected only a mvt. here or there to be included in a performance with many of his own works. One complete set of parts for the WO (copies of the original) was available for purchase from Breitkopf at the New Years Fair in Leipzig, 1764 (had anyone performed from these before selling them? - these were lost and never seen or
heard from since).

One of the earliest performances (complete in one concert???) would most likely have been under Zelter's direction of the Berlin Singakademie. Zelter would have acquired all the original materials for the WO soon after CPE Bach's death (check the date) after which Zelter between acquisition of them and the time of his death in 1832 would most likely have performed them in public. Zelter had a copyist duplicate all the vocal parts with usually two extra parts for each voice for each cantata in the WO. These are all indications that it was performed during Zelter's lifetime. It would be interesting to determine if Mendelssohn was aware of its existence or may even have performed it as well - there is no record of this, however. Private copies began floating around at the beginning of the 19^th century, making a few other performances of this music possible.

There are a few firm records of performances that were either considered or did take actually take place:

1. Johann Nepomuk Schelble considered performing it in Frankfurt am Main in the 1830s.

2. Johann Theodor Mosewius (1788-1855) performed the first two parts as part of the Christmas celebration given by the Breslau Singakademie.

3. Carl von Winterfeld included in his printed collection "Der evangelische Kirchengesang", Part 3, Leipzig, 1847, selected mvts. from the WO.

4. After the publication of the WO in the BGA in 1856, the number of actual performances would have increased dramatically.

As far as the tradition of performing all the cantatas in one sitting/concert, it is very difficult to ascertain this. It might possibly have happened under CPE Bach's direction, then possibly later under Zelter's direction. After that perhaps only after the complete score had been printed in the BGA. No records about this are available here.

The first performance of the WO in England took place under the direction of William Sterndale Bennett in 1861. In 1849 he had founded the Bach Society. He performed the SMP in 1854 and the WO in 1861. This might possibly have been the first time that the entire WO was performed at a single concert (unless, of course, this already took place under CPE Bach or Zelter, for which no records but reasonable assumptions exist).

Josh Klasinski wrote (January 17, 2007):
[To Thomas Braatz] Many thanks Thomas...will look into this Heighes article.

Bradley Lehman wrote (January 17, 2007):
Thomas Braatz wrote: (...)
< The NBA KB indicates that, without a doubt, additional performances of the WO or at least parts of it took place during Bach's lifetime. No firm dates, however, can be given as to when this did occur.
(...)
One of the earliest performances (complete in one concert???) would most likely have been under Zelter's direction of the Berlin Singakademie. Zelter would have acquired all the original materials for the WO soon after CPE Bach's death (check the date) after which Zelter between acquisition of them and the time of his death in 1832 would most likely have performed them in public. Zelter had a copyist duplicate all the vocal parts with usually two extra parts for each voice for each cantata in the WO. These are all indications that it was performed during Zelter's lifetime. >
So, to be clear and assuming that this message is internally consistent: this speculation about Zelter's performance(s) is not in the NBA or its KB, correct? Only the record of the source material, that he prepared some parts?

And did Zelter prepare any additional orchestral parts, or just voices?

< It would be interesting to determine if Mendelssohn was aware of its existence or may even have performed it as well - there is no record of this, however. Private copies began floating around at the beginning of the 19^th century, making a few other performances of this music possible. >
Or, to be more accurate on this part, instead of saying: "there is no record of this, however" (which is the impossible-to-prove 'universal negative') -- how about saying: "I am not aware of any record of this" ? Which books about Mendelssohn, if any, have you read in the process of formulating this universal negative?

Thomas Braatz wrote (January 17, 2007):
Christmas Oratorio, 19^th century conjectured performance(s)

Bradley Lehman wrote:
>>And did Zelter prepare any additional orchestral parts, or just voices?<<
Only the voices, with two minor exceptions, these amount to a double set of parts for each voice. The alto parts throughout are written in the soprano clef, a characteristic peculiar to copies made for the Berlin Singakademie under Zelter's direction.

The description of the condition of the original parts "leidlich gut erhalten" ('preserved in a bearable, passable condition' or 'their condition isn't too bad') might indicate that they could have been used by Zelter along with the additional parts that he had had copied out.

The conjecture about Mendelssohn possibly having e(played along or conducted the WO) is not as far-fetched as it might appear from Mendelssohn's activities with the Singakademie and his own burning interest in uncovering other Bach manuscripts; and yet a detailed modern biography of Mendelssohn, particularly in a section devoted entirely to Mendelssohn's involvement with Bach's music (contained in the Grove Music Online article on Mendelssohn), yields no specific information about Mendelssohn's connection with the WO. This is a matter of reasonable conjecture based upon research conducted, as one might assume with thoroughness by the writer of the article. This article represents the current state of research on this matter. Perhaps if you find an interesting tidbit in a letter by Mendelssohn that refers to the WO, this should be reported to the Grove Music Online? Just a suggestion. I am certain that the recipient of this information would be grateful for having this pointed out to him.

Bradley Lehman wrote (January 17, 2007):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< (...) a detailed modern biography of Mendelssohn, particularly in a section devoted entirely to Mendelssohn's involvement with Bach's music (contained in the Grove Music Online article on Mendelssohn), yields no specific information about Mendelssohn's connection with the WO. This is a matter of reasonable conjecture based upon research conducted, as one might assume with thoroughness by the writer of the article. This article represents the current state of research on this matter. Perhaps if you find an interesting tidbit in a letter by Mendelssohn that refers to the WO, this should be reported to the Grove Music Online? Just a suggestion. I am certain that the recipient of this information would be grateful for having this pointed out to him. >
All this patronizing batch of blather aside, I see that you've dodged my question on this issue as well.

My question was about the simple and honest distinction between the statement:
- "there is no record of this, however" (which is the impossible-to-prove 'universal negative')
- and a statement that takes personal responsibility for one's own knowledge/limitations: "I am not aware of any record of this".

At least you've answered one small part. You admittedly looked at one New Grove article (online version), and have then added to it your own rather absurd assumption that that one single article should tell us every possible thing that's worthwhile to know about Mendelssohn. And then, from that, you've extrapolated further to assert that "there is no record", just because that one very short article (overviewing Mendelssohn's life and career) didn't happen to mention any such connection of Mendelssohn ever performing Bach's Christmas Oratorio.

And then your response was not to recognize/acknowledge such a logical flaw and mend your ways, but rather to get all patronizing and belligerent about how research should be done.

And for all your bluster about this, it leaves us still not knowing either one way or the other if Mendelssohn ever encountered the piece.

=====

A far simpler response would have been to say something like this: "I looked at the New Grove article about Mendelssohn, and it didn't happen to mention a Christmas Oratorio performance by him. That's all I know specifically on this topic."

Thomas Braatz wrote (January 18, 2007):
Christmas Oratorio & Mendelssohn

Felix Mendelssohn (1809-1847)

Mendelssohn began singing in Zelter's Berliner Singakademie in 1820 at age 11. At age 14, in 1823, he had expressed a Christmas wish for a manuscript copy of the SMP which he thereupon received as requested. He then set about getting a group of 16 singers together at his home to perform it. Not including the interruption of a visit to Paris with his father in 1825, Mendelssohn was still regularly attending and performing with the Singakademie in 1826, 7 years after having become a member of the choir. During all these years, Mendelssohn would have had ample opportunity to become acquainted with many works by Bach. The questions that remain are:

1) Did Zelter actually perform the WO (at least we know that he had sufficient extra vocal parts especially copied out for use by the choir)?

2) Was the performance only for a small number of interested parties and for the edification of the choir members only? One of Bach's original continuo parts shows much more wear and tear than the other instrumental parts - could this have been used by Zelter to supply the figured bass with perhaps a violoncello looking on? - Felix could read orchestral scores at sight and play them directly on the keyboard - did he perhaps help out by reading and playing other instrumental parts from the original score?

3) Did Zelter perform the WO publicly? (the most likely answer to the latter would, in all probability be no, judging from his very strong reluctance later on to perform the SMP in 1829 - Zelter: "The general public is not yet ready for this music and the Singakademie cannot perform it properly.") Also, there is no public record (newspaper reports, etc.) or private indications (personal letters, etc.) anywhere to prove that such a concert had actually taken place.

Bradley Lehman wrote (January 18, 2007):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< 3) Did Zelter perform the WO publicly? (the most likely answer to the latter would, in all probability be no, judging from his very strong reluctance later on to perform the SMP in 1829 � Zelter: �The general public is not yet ready for this music and the Singakademie cannot perform it properly.�) Also, there is no public record (newspaper reports, etc.) or private indications (personal letters, etc.) anywhere to prove that such a concert had actually taken place. >
Here is that blasted (and illogical) universal negative again! There is no public record ANYWHERE to prove...blah-de-blah. Sorry, but you're just plain wrong to say so with such a universal and glib presumption at insight--whether the thing actually took place or not.

There is probably no extant (or at least easily accessible) public record to prove that I performed a certain Beethoven piece with our high school orchestra in 1981-2, at a public concert. And that was only 25 years ago. I do have a private record of it, in the form of a cassette tape of that performance, somewhere in some box; but it is unlikely "in all probability" (your construction!) that there will ever be a public record--other than my mentioning it here right now! Just my word for it, plus the several friends of mine who happened to play in that orchestra, plus my piano teacher of that era, plus my parents who happened to be at the concert. Fast-forward 50 more years, or 100. Is it likely "in all probability" that there will exist any publicly-accessible record that that performance ever took place, for perusal by any scholar who would happen to give a <> about it? I think not. Is that lack of hard evidence sufficient proof that the thing never actually happened? I think not.

Thomas Braatz wrote (January 19, 2007):
Thomas Braatz had written:
>>3) Did Zelter perform the WO publicly? (the most likely answer to the latter would, in all probability be no, judging from his very strong reluctance later on to perform the SMP in 1829....A, there is no public record (newspaper reports, etc.) or private indications (personal letters, etc.) anywhere to prove that such a concert had actually taken place.<<
Bradley Lehman wrote:
>>Here is that blasted (and illogical) universal negative again! There is no public record ANYWHERE to prove...blah-de-blah. Sorry, but you're just plain wrong to say so with such a universal and glib presumption at insight--whether the thing actually took place or not....Is that lack of hard evidence sufficient proof that the thing never actually happened? I think not.<<
It is necessary for this type of conclusion ('lack of public or private records mean that something did or did not happen') to consider that two centuries have passed during which there has been sufficient interest in these historical matters for someone to come across and make public any newspaper/musical journal reports or letters stashed away in someone's attic that would refer to a Zelter performance of the WO in a public venue. What are the chances that this might still happen today: a revelation that Zelter performed the WO with the Berlin Singakademie? Certainly, nothing is impossible, but how real, seriously, is the remote possibility that such a thing can still happen? In lieu of this evidence which now has only an infinitesimal, ever-decreasing chance of coming to light, one can reasonably assume that 'in all probability' such a public performance of Bach's WO by Zelter did not take place.

Bradley Lehman wrote (January 19, 2007):
[To Thomas Braatz] That wasn't the point. The point was the illogicality of your pseudo-omniscient pronouncements. And the pseudo-omniscience that you impute to your process of divination: of looking at one conveniently available book or internet screen, and extrapolating that whatever's not seen there definitely didn't exist, else you'd know about it and the scholar would have said so.

Try this example:

There is no readily available public record that you, sir, took a drink of water at any time yesterday (just to pick some recent day arbitrarily, and some reasonable activity arbitrarily). Should we then conclude, albeit improperly, that you didn't?

Uri Golomb wrote (January 19, 2007):
On the dangers of looking at just one book and concluding anything from it, especialy for proving a negative: I checked the index of R. Larry Todd's magisterial book, Mendelssohn: A Life in Music (Oxford University Press, 2003). Plenty of Bach citations, as one would expect -- but no mention at all of any of the Oratorios. Assuing the index correctly reflects the book, this means that, in all 600+ pages, Todd never mentions these works (it's always possible that one of Bach's Oratorios is mentioned in the book, but the index missed it -- mistakes happen). So either he never came across referenes to Mendelssohn performing, or examining, or listening to, these works -- or he didn't think these sources are worth citing in his biography.

So someone reading this book could conclude that, to the best of Todd's considerable knowledge, Mendlessohn never came across Bach's oratorios (though even this is not necessarliy the case); and from this conclude that, in all likelihood, he really never came across them.

But then I checked another secondary source -- the Cambridge Companion to Mendelssohn. And -- lo and behold! -- it says there (in Peter Mercer-Taylor's article "Mendelssohn and the institutions of German art music") that Mendelssohn performed the Ascension oratorio (BWV 11) in a festival in Cologne in 1838 (p. 17). Todd apparently doesn't mention this performance (unless, as I said, the index is inaccurate) -- either he didn't know about it, or (more likely) didn't consider it important to mention it (biographers have to be selective -- if they've done their research properly, they must amass much more material than they could fit into a single book, however large).

Of course, Zelter -- or ANYBODY in Mendelsohn's lifetime -- performing the entire WO is an endeavour much more likely to be documented than the examples Brad mentioned (e.g., Thomas Braatz drinking a glass of water yesterday). In fact, I would say that, if no such performance is mentioned anywhere in contemporaneous sources, than in all probability it didn't happen (not 100% certainty, of course -- just high probability). I don't know how well the Berlin Singakademie files were kept, but if they did a good archive of their own activities, that makes it even less likely for a WO performance with that particular group to have remained undocumented.

However, if secondary sources do not mention such a performance, this does not automatically mean that no primary sources mentioned it. And the the lack of a mention in Grove's dictionary certainly signifies nothing. If a book-length biography cannot mention all known facts, an encyclopaedia entry certainly can't!

And it's not all or nothing either. What if Mendelssohn heard (or took part in) a performance, not of the entire WO, but just of of one cantata out of the six? Or just one movement -- say, an aria? Offhand, I'd say that such an event (esp. the performance of just one movement, or a few selections) is more likely to have gone unreported than a performance of the entire work. But this is not a matter for guesswork -- to truly judge the likelihood, we'd need to KNOW much more: about how well the Singakademie, and other ensembles, kept records of their own performances; of how conscienteous the press of the time were in reporting such events; etc. etc. I readily confess that I have no such knowledge; so my judgement on likelihood is, in this case, nothing more than reasonable (or unreasonable) guesswork -- good enough (with this caveat attached!) for an online conversation, perhaps, but not for actual scholarship.

Bradley Lehman wrote (January 19, 2007):
[To Uri Golomb] All very well said, thanks Uri!

One other bit I'd add, for what it's worth (and maybe nothing): I'd second the idea that excerpts perhaps happened, but that no extant records are known anymore. Just in the past 25 years -- and I'm of course no Mendelssohn! -- I can recall two occasions when I conducted Christmas Oratorio excerpts myself (with a church choir and with college students), and I'd venture that it's very unlikely that any written record of those performances exist anymore. Nobody would know, one way or the other, if not written down and reasonably accessible in some archive or collection. That's not even 25 years ago.

There probably exists no written evidence that I have ever even seriously studied the piece, in any capacity, since my copy of the full score sits on my shelf unmarked. If someone were to go through my score collection, 50 years from now and making inferences from my markings, they'd probably conclude that I knew Wagner's "Meistersinger" much better than any full score of a vocal piece by Bach; and that conclusion would simply be wrong, but not provable by the written evidence. The evidence shows merely that I had some occasion in the past to mark "Meistersinger" up with a zillion analytical remarks, and that I didn't replace that copy later with a cleaner unmarked score. One wouldn't know that I haven't even bothered to listen to "Meistersinger" even once, straight through, on any occasion after the school year when I marked up that score...or ever conducted or played or sung any of it, markings or not.

Any other BCML members performed the Christmas Oratorio, either whole or in excerpts, but for which no written records are available anymore?

Thomas Braatz wrote (January 20, 2007):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
>>That wasn't the point. The point was the illogicality of your pseudo-omniscient pronouncements. And the pseudo-omniscience that you impute to your process of divination: of looking at one conveniently available book or internet screen, and extrapthat whatever's not seen there definitely didn't exist, else you'd know about it and the scholar would have said so.
Try this example:
There is no readily available public record that you, sir, took a drink of water at any time yesterday (just to pick some recent day arbitrarily, and some reasonable activity arbitrarily). Should we then conclude, albeit improperly, that you didn't?<<
Some important points conveniently overlooked here for the purpose of serving your argument: ('Event' here refers to a probable event that may or may not have taken place)

1. Who (or which entity) is performing the event?
[the importance of the individual or group causing the event is significant]

2. What is the context of the event? What is its significance?
[surrounding conditions will either favor the noting of the event or allow it to pass into oblivion]

3. How long ago did this event take place?
[the further back in time (century by century) an event occurs, the less likely its preservation as a recorded event]

4. How much research has been conducted focused on the subject, time and place of the event?
[the more investigation and research by Bach experts has been focused on a specific individual or group, the greater likelihood that the record of the event will be found or a reasonable determination can be made that it may never have existed in the first place]

Summary:

Reasonable assumptions can be made based upon consulting a few key sources of information because thorough methods of musicological scholarship performed by Bach experts will have gleaned and sifted large amounts of source materials bringing otherwise unknown, but important information to the fore.

Question to Uri Golomb:

Did either of the books on Mendelssohn you referred to document/mention the 1st(?) public performance of Bach's 'Piano' Concerto in D minor BWV 1052 by Mendelssohn at a concert with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra in early March of 1837. Footnote to NBA KB VII/4, p. 39: "There is no reason to doubt that Mendelssohn performed this concerto frequently." Are there any earlier (or later) public performances of this work recorded in either book?

Uri Golomb wrote (January 20, 2007):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< Question to Uri Golomb:
Did either of the books on Mendelssohn you referred to document/mention the 1st(?) public performance of Bach's 'Piano' Concerto in D minor BWV 1052 by Mendelssohn at a concert with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra in early March of 1837. Footnote to NBA KB VII/4, p. 39: "There is no reason to doubt that Mendelssohn performed this concerto frequently." Are there any earlier (or later) public performances of this work recorded in either book? >
BRIEF ANSWER:

Todd mentions this performance (p. 328), and a later one at the Gewandhaus on April 23, 1843 (p. 451). He also mentions two earlier performances, in Berlin -- December 1, 1832 (pp. 268/9); and September 15, 1835 (p. 284). This does not mean that these are the only occasions (or even the only documented occasions) on which Mendelssohn performed the work, but certainly these events are documented. The Cambridge Companion (which is a collection of articles, not a biography) doesn't mention any of these performances, but does mention a thematic link between the Concerto and Mendlessohn's first published piano piece, the F-shapr minor Capriccio Op. 5 (1825; Glenn Stanley, "The music for keyboard", Cambridge Companion to Mendelssohn, p. 150).

BTW, Todd also mentions performances of the D-minor Concerto by another pianist -- Sarah Itzig Levy (1761-1854), who, "in 1807 and 1808, frequently appeared as soloist in J. S. Bach's Fifth Brandenburg Concerto and Concert in D minor for harpsichord" (Todd, p. 11). So Mendelssohn's first public performance of the work (whether it took place on Decmeber 1832 or earlier) is not the first public performance of the work -- maybe Levy's was the first, maybe it was done even earlier than that. Todd mentions Levy as one of several sources for Mendelssohn's familiarity with J. S. Bach's and (esp. in Levy's case) C. P. E. Bach's music; she had close links with Zelter's Singakademie, and on her death, her collection of Bach manuscripts was bequeathed to the Singakademie.

Thomas Braatz wrote (January 20, 2007):
Uri Golomb wrote:
>>Todd mentions this performance [Bach's D minor 'Piano' Concerto] (p. 328), and a later one at the Gewandhaus on April 23, 1843 (p. 451). He also mentions two earlier performances, in Berlin --December 1, 1832 (pp. 268/9); and September 15, 1835 (p. 284)....<<
Thanks, Uri, for taking the time to look up and share this detailed information with the BCML.

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (January 21, 2007):
Sarah Itzig Levy

Uri Golomb wrote:
< BTW, Todd also mentions performances of the D-minor Concerto by another pianist -- Sarah Itzig Levy (1761-1854), who, "in 1807 and 1808, frequently appeared as soloist in J. S. Bach's Fifth Brandenburg Concerto and Concert in D minor for harpsichord" (Todd, p. 11). So Mendelssohn's first public performance of the work (whether it took place on Decmeber 1832 or earlier) is not the first public performance of the work -- maybe Levy's was the first, maybe it was done even earlier than that. Todd mentions Levy as one of several sources for Mendelssohn's familiarity with J. S. Bach's and (esp. in Levy's case) C. P. E. Bach's music; she had close links with Zelter's Singakademie, and on her death, her collection of Bach manuscripts was bequeathed to the Singakademie. >
We have been told here that perhaps JSB never had the "pleasure" of running into a Jew (as opposed e.g. to Handel's frequent contact with that "race"). This lady's triad of names is so very obviously Jewish (sorry, there really is such a thing as blatantly obvious Jewish names and here it applies to all three names) that one wonders exactly what was going on in this generation after JSB. First there is Mme. Levy and later cometh Felix. Please don't tell me that Zelter was half-Jewish himself:-). There is a serious sociological matter that may lie hidden here.

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