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Recordings & Discussions of Other Vocal Works: Main Page | Motets BWV 225-231 | Mass in B minor BWV 232 | Missae Breves & Sanctus BWV 233-242 | Magnificat BWV 243 | Matthäus-Passion BWV 244 | Johannes-Passion BWV 245 | Lukas-Passion BWV 246 | Markus-Passion BWV 247 | Weihnachts-Oratorium BWV 248 | Oster-Oratorium BWV 249 | Chorales BWV 250-438 | Geistliche Lieder BWV 439-507 | AMN BWV 508-523 | Quodlibet BWV 524 | Aria BWV 1127

Matthäus-Passion BWV 244
General Discussions - Part 16

Continue from Part 15

Discussion ion the Weeks April 12+19, 2009 [Continue]

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 16, 2009):
I have found the discussions of the SMP as performed by Bach in the context of Good Friday services to be illuminating. My understanding of the points made, so far, is:

(1) In the morning, there was a conventional Lutheran Mass, including presentation of a Gospel text of the passion story, in evolved plainchant.

(2) The afternoon Vesper service was greatly expanded, to accomodate the newly composed (or other) passion performance. It is worth contemplating that in the case of SMP, what we now experience as an intermission would have originally been a sermon. Quite frankly, I find that prospect intimidating.

I believe I misstated Christoph Wolff in his introduction to the recent Boston performance. He did not say that the passion story would have been heard at Vespers, only that it would have been heard in the morning, prior to the afternoon performance of the full passion, including Gospel text. He did imply that the morning Gospel would match the afternoon passion. This would seem logical (not to say theological), but it is difficult to reconcile with the history of passion performances (afternoon), in comparison with a regular annual rotation of the four Gospels in the morning Mass.

Prof. Wolff also implied (at least!) that the difference in the music that Bach composed and structured for SJP, in contrast to SMP, is directly related to the distinctly different character of the two Gospel passion stories, with reference to the apocalyptic tone of John, also the author of the Book of Revelation (finis). This leads a thoughtful person (at least this one) to ponder how confusing it would be to hear one passion text in the morning, followed by a different one in the afternoon, with commentary and amplification. As to why the four passion stories do not agree more closely in their details, I will leave to Christian theologians. I do not have any difficulty relating to Bach, perhaps wondering about the same details.

Aryeh Oron wrote (April 16, 2009):
BWV 244 > BWV 147 Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben 2nd part

Thomas Braatz sent me the message below:

In the discussion of BWV 244 on the BCML, Doug Cowling raised a question about the authenticity of Parte seconda + Nach der Predigt.
The NBA KB I/28.2 p. 63 reports that Bach's autograph score simply has: Parte seconda (actually: Parte 2da. with a line above the da.) This appears after mvt. 6 (Choral), while the original set of parts prepared mainly by Johann Andreas Kuhnau with some help from Christian Gottlob Meißner and even less so from some anonymous copyists has only Nach der Predigt (added by the copyists) and not Parte seconda. In the printed version of this cantata, the NBA I/28.1 p. 109 has conflated these two sources to read:

Parte Seconda
Nach der Predigt

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 16, 2009):
BWV 244 > The Second Cantata

Aryeh Oron wrote:
< The NBA KB I/28.2 p. 63 reports that Bach's autograph score simply has: Parte seconda (actually: Parte 2da. with a line above the da.) This appears after mvt. 6 (Choral), while the original set of parts prepared mainly by Johann Andreas Kuhnau with some help from Christian Gottlob Meißner and even less so from some anonymous copyists has only Nach der Predigt (added by the copyists) and not Parte seconda. >
It would be interesting to know what sources Wolff uses to say that the second part of a cantata was not performed immediately after the Sermon ("nach der Predigt") but later during the communion which took place after several major musical items such as the Sanctus. I can't remember what Stiller says, but he does have an extended list of cantatas which he proposes as "communion cantatas" because of their texts (e.g. "Schmücke dich"). If I recall, he doesn't show any documentary evidence for their performances and relies only on the eucharistic themes in their librettos: "Christ lag in Todesanden" would be a candidate because of its references to the celebration of the "Abendmahl"

Our focus on this list has always been the first cantata because that's when the new music was premiered. What music did Bach use for the second cantata? Was that always a work which was performed without revision? Was the previous year's cantata slotted into this spot? Were cantatas written intentionally with eucharistic references in their librettos so that they could be used at communion in subsequent years?

Is there any scholarly work on this question?

William Hoffman wrote (April 16 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Our focus on this list has always been the first cantata because that's when the new music was premiered. What music did Bach use for the second cantata? Was that always a work which was performed without revision? Was the previous year's cantata slotted into this spot? Were cantatas written intentionally with eucharistic references in their librettos so that they could be used at communion in subsequent years?
Is there any scholarly work on this question? >
William Hoffman replies: Doug raises several important questions related to use of Bach's cantatas in the service. I think the short answer to the last question is "no." Even scholars of Wolff's stature find statements and practices which support their views but as in so much scholarship, little seems definitive.

I went to recent sources, Robin Leaver's <Luther's Liturgical Music> (BCW portions downloaded) and to Stiller, who discusses at length the Communion where Bach's had the best opportunity to present figural music (cantatas). So, I turn to Bach's work contract with the Town Council. It says: "Bring the music in both the principal churches of this town into good estate, to the best of my ability;" while, "In order to preserve the good order in the churches, so arrange the music that it shall not last too long, and shall be of such a nature as not to make an operatic impression, but rather incite the listeners to devotion."

I think that Bach, especially with with the support of his Thomas Church pastor Christian Weiss Sr., sought to realize his opportunity to the fullest, most notably in the first cantata cycle while achieving music in "good estate," which I interpret to be Bach's calling of a "well-regulated church music to the glory of God." In that initial cycle, Bach explores all manner of opportunity with all manner of musical presentation. This includes two-part cantatas, double-bills, communion reprises of some of the music, and a fine Passion -- here to fit that fullest opportunity. In later times, Bach presented shorted versions of some of his cantatas and cantatas that used limited resources.

I also think that the pragmatic performing Bach adapted his cantatas in future presentations to new chorale settings to meet a special emphasis in a particular sermon or in a particular service setting. This would explain the some 80 free-standing chorales, most of which were less known and best for thematic Trinity services.

In his Passions, particularly in the SMP, Bach realized his opportunities, and surmounted the restrictions, to the fullest. Here he presented all manner of music -- figural poetic arias, proclamatory biblical narrative, and interpretive hymns -- with engaging texts in a service which focused on Luther's prime concern of word with music -- sermon and musical sermon with reading -- as great sacred human drama. SDG

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 17, 2009):
Doug Cowling wrote:
< Is there any scholarly work on this question? >
William Hoffman replies: <Doug raises several important questions related to use of Bach's >cantatas in the service. I think the short answer to the last question
>is "no." Even scholars of Wolff's stature find statements and practices which support their >views but as in so much scholarship, little seems definitive. <
EM
As I might phrase it, scholarly opinion is informed opinion, but nothing more (nor less!), in the absence of definitive evidence. As if very much evidence is ever definitive.

WH
>I think that Bach, especially with the of his Thomas Church pastor Christian Weiss Sr., sought to realize his opportunity to the fullest, most notably in the first cantata cycle while achieving music in "good estate," which I interpret to be Bach's calling of a "well-regulated church music to the glory of God." <
EM
I agree with this statement in principle, but I find that the second Chorale based Leipzig cycle is a musical and spiritual extension of the first cycle. It is not out of the question to suggest that Bach had the entire architecture of both cycles in mind, as expressed in the phrase <well regulated church music>. Indeed, Doug has made statements which I believe are comparable, from time to time. It is only the current generation (20-30 years) of Bach scholars who have had the 1723-25 Leipzig cantata and passion output to grapple with.

I doubt if anyone on this list would quibble with the idea that Bach wrote his music for the glory of God, would question that he meant it when he wrote SDG. Some of us (me, for sure) do find it a matter of ongoing relevance to question the specific equivalence (!) of 18th C. Lutheran belief, in Leipzig, with 21st C. (09 ECE) spirituality on planet Earth.

Or to phrase that differently, the music endures (where there is music, there is God!), independent of the specific intellectual (theo-logic?) content of the texts. It is possible, I would say preferable, perhaps even necessary, to appreciate both the music and the specific Lutheran beliefs that the texts represent, without adhering to those beliefs, some three hundred very fast-paced years hence.

Aryeh Oron wrote (April 17, 2009):
[To Douglas Cowling] Thomas Braatz sent me the following message:

Continuing with Doug Cowling's questions, here are some excerpts from Boyd's J. S. Bach:

Ärgre dich, o Seele, nicht ('Do not trouble thyself, o Soul'). Cantata for the seventh Sunday after Trinity, BWV 186, first performed at Leipzig on 11 July 1723. This is a reworking of a lost Advent cantata (BWV 186a), to a libretto by Salomo Franck, which Bach wrote at Weimar in 1716....To render the text suitable for the new occasion, the anonymous reviser of Franck's libretto provided words for four new recitatives and lightly altered the words of the arias that became nos. 3 and 5. In its expanded form the cantata was divided into two parts; in accordance with normal practice, the first would have been heard before the sermon, the second during Communion. Each part ends with a strophe of the hymn Es ist das Heil uns kommen her by Paul Speratus (1523), replacing the chorale used in BWV 186a. Malcolm Boyd

Die Himmel erzählen die Ehre Gottes ('The heavens declare the glory of God'). Cantata for the second Sunday after Trinity, BWV 76, first performed on 6 June 1723. This was the second cantata Bach performed after taking up his post as Kantor and director chori musici at Leipzig, Part 2, which was presumably heard during Communion.... Malcolm Boyd

Ein ungefärbt Gemüte ('An unstained mind'). Cantata for the fourth Sunday after Trinity, BWV 24. This is the second of three cantatas that Bach wrote for this Sunday; it was performed on 20 June 1723 along with another cantata, Barmherziges Herze der ewigen Liebe (BWV 185), which Bach had already performed in Weimar. As always when two cantatas were performed, one was heard before the sermon and the other during Communion.... Alberto Basso.

Es ist dir gesagt, Mensch, was gut ist ('He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good'). Cantata, BWV 45, which Bach produced on 11 August 1726 for the eighth Sunday after Trinity. Thus it belongs to his third annual cycle (1725-7) which contains cantatas treated in a variety of ways. Like the other six cantatas from the Rudolstadt textbook, this one is in two sections. Part 2, which would have been sung during Communion, after the sermon and the words of institution. Nicholas Anderson

Geist und Seele wird verwirret ('Spirit and soul are dumbfounded'). Cantata for the 12th Sunday after Trinity, BWV 35, first performed on 8 September 1726. A solo cantata for alto voice, the work is thought to incorporate the outer movements of a lost oboe concerto. These serve as sinfonias, opening the first and second halves of the cantata; the original soloist is replaced by obbligato organ, and two oboes and taille are added to the (presumably) original string accompaniment The second aria, accompanied only by organ and continuo, might also be a parody; its abbreviated da capo form unexpectedly connects the last line of the text to a restatement of the first, a device reminiscent of Bach's Weimar arias. Only a brief recitative and a single aria follow the second sinfonia, which would have been heard during Communion, after the sermon and the words of institution, in the original performance. David Schulenberg

Hauptgottesdienst. After the words of institution, during Communion, there was musica sub communionis. This could be either another cantata or the second part of a two-part cantata. Robin A Leaver

Bibliography: G. Stiller, Johann Sebastian Bach and Liturgical Life in Leipzig, Eng. trans. H. J. A. Bouman, D. F. Poellot, and H. C. Oswald, ed. R. A. Leaver ( St Louis, Miss., 1984); C. S. Terry, Joh. Seb. Bach Cantata Texts, Sacred and Secular, with a Reconstruction of the Leipzig Liturgy of his Period (London, 1926).

Jesus nahm zu sich die Zwölfe ('He took unto him the twelve'), BWV 22. The first of two cantatas performed in the Thomaskirche, Leipzig, on 7 February 1723, the Sunday before Lent. Later in the same service Cantata BWV 23, Du wahrer Gott und Davids Sohn, was heard during communion. Robin A Leaver

O Ewigkeit, du Donnerwort ('O eternity, thou thunderous word) (i). Cantata, BWV 20, for the first Sunday after Trinity, first performed on 11 June 1724. The cantata is in two parts, with movements 8-11 inscribed 'seconda parte' and presumably designed to be performed during Communion in the usual manner. David Humphreys

Vergnügte Ruh, beliebte Seelenlust ('Delightful repose, favoured longing of the soul'). Cantata for the sixth Sunday after Trinity, BWV 170, first performed on 28 July 1726. It is the second of Bach's four cantatas for solo alto and the first of the three he composed in 1726 incorporating movements with obbligato organ. Unlike the two later ones (nos. 35 and 169), it has no opening instrumental sinfonia. It would have required a second keyboard instrument to furnish the continuo realization, and it was possibly in order to avoid this complication that Bach reassigned the obbligato part in the last movement to the flute when the work was repeated in 1746 or 1747.

The text, by G. C. Lehms, had been published in 1711; it has been described as particularly appropriate to a cantata performed during Communion. Indeed, Bach appears to have performed the cantata Ich will mein Geist in euch geben by Johann Ludwig Bach of Meiningen on the same day in 1726. This was presumably heard before the sermon, the present work during Communion. David Schulenberg

Wachet! betet! betet! wachet! ('Watch and pray, pray and watch!). Cantata for the 26th Sunday after Trinity, BWV 70, first performed in Leipzig on 21 November 1723. Most of the music is derived from a lost Weimar cantata to words by Salomo Franck, probably performed on the second Sunday in Advent (6 December) 1716. The last three Sundays in Advent being a tempus clausum in Leipzig, the work was adapted for its new ocby an unknown librettist, who added four recitatives and a further chorale strophe and divided the work into two parts, the first to be performed before the sermon and the second during Communion. Malcolm Boyd

All the above excerpts have been taken from: J.S. Bach. Contributors: Malcolm Boyd - editor, John Butt - editor. Publisher: Oxford University Press. Place of Publication: Oxford. Publication Year: 1999.

Aryeh Oron wrote (April 17, 2009):
Matthaus-Passion BWV 244 - Revised & Updated Discography

I have been (and still am) busy recently with a major project of revising and updating the discographies of Bach's big vocal works.

For the already existing recordings I have added exact recording date (not only month/year) and link/s to source of info/possible purchase sources.

I have done the deepest possible search over the web and discovered many dozens of unfamiliar recordings.
For each new recording I have built performer page (or update existing performer page) and bio page for each artist who took part in the recording. Many of them have to be translated from German
So far I have added over 300 bios and updated many others.
The material in some of the ensemble/conductor web pages is only partial. However, my goal is that the BCW would be as comprehensive, as updated and as accurate as possible. That means that when I finish this project I shall have to write to each ensemble/conductor, asking to check the details and fill the gaps.

I have given higher priority to the discography of SMP, because this work is currently discussed in the BCML.
The SMP discography pages are linked from the page:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV244.htm
159 recordings of SMP are now presented (in the previous version there were 143).
The last in the line so far (No. 159) is the a much discussed SMP conducted by Riccardo Chailly performed in both the Barbican in London and the Gewandhaus in Leipzig earlier this month. The Leipzig concerts were recorded by Decca and are planned for release.

I would appreciate any help in making this discography even more comprehensive, updated and accurate by adding recordings, correcting errors and completing missing details.

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 17, 2009):
[To Aryeh Oron] Thanks for references. I've always thought of the two halves of a cantata as bookends to the sermon, as the Passions were. If the concluding section was delayed to the communion, then the halves of a cantata are similar to the Gloria and Credo of the Catholic mass which were separated by several pieces of music.

Do we have a listing on this site of which cantatas are written in two parts? And has there been any scholarly speculation why Bach decided to write bipartite cantatas?

William Hoffman wrote (April 17 2009):
See: The Genesis of Bach's `Great Passion': 1724-29 [PDF]

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 17, 2009):
BWV 244 > A Cycle of Passion?

William Hoffman wrote:
< Meanwhile, in 1722 George Philipp Telemann, Bach's counterpart in Hamburg, instituted his cycle of four annual oratorio Passion presentations with a now-lost St. Matthew Passion. Telemann's cycle then involved the other two synoptic Gospels, Mark and Luke, as well as the evangelist John's setting. This pattern of oratorio Passions according to the four Gospels continued until 1765 >
Given the long tradition of setting all four Passions as a cycle in both Lutheran and Catholic traditions, is there any evidence that Bach intended to write a tetralogy of Passion settings, or do we read common factors into the SJP and SMP when they are really independent works?

Bach's Ring Cycle!

William Hoffman wrote (April 17 2009):
BWV 244, SMP Chorales

It is difficult to categorize some Bach chorales into topics such as the Passion, although there is such a category in the Helmuth Rilling's Hänssler "Complete Bach Edition," Vol. 79, part of the eight-volume collection (78-85) of chorales and sacred songs, interspersed with appropriate organ chorale preludes: www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV250-438-Rilling.htm. Some of the more obscure chorales and sacred songs from that CD are found in the listings below, including recent BWV deest/Weimar and Neumeister Collection versions.

Another difficulty in categorization is the clearly non-passion chorale, especially in the St. Mark Passion, BWV 247, such as "Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott" or "O Ewigkeit, du Donnerword. Also there are various Passion-type chorales for Lent, Easter and Trinity: i.e., "Christ lag in Todesbanden" "Alle menschen Müßen sterben," "Ach wie Flüchtig" and "Christus der ist mein Leben." The on-going BCW listings of chorales have a wealth of information, such as the "Passion Chorale": www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Befiehl-du-deine-Wege.htm.

In the listings below of the chorales in Bach's three surviving Passions, it also should be noted that various chorales such as the "Passion" chorale are used at many different places in one Passion, as well as different places among the three Passions. Only one Passion chorale text is common to all three Passions: Paul Gerhardt's "O welt, sieh hier dein Leben," BWV 244//16(10), BWV 245/15(11), and BWV 247/20(7).

Some of the connections between these "Passion" chorales and Bach's theological use and placement are fund in the BCW listing: www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/SMP-Spiritual-Hoffman.htm

Vesper Chorales

Da Jesus an dem Kreuze stund ("There Jesus on the cross hung"), Vespers 1;
Ecce quomodo moritur justus quomodo moritur justus ("Behold how dies the righteous person"), Jacob Gallus;
Vespers 4
Herr Jesus Christ, dich zu uns wend ("Lord Jesus Christ, Thee to us turn around");
Vespers 3: BWV 332
Nun danket alle Gott ("Now thank we all Our God"), Rinhart; Vespers 6
O Lamm Gottes unschuldig ("O Lamb of God, guiltless"), metrical version Agnus Dei
(Lamb of God), Nikolaus Decius (1531); Vespers 2;
O Traurigkeit, o Herzeleid ("O darkest woe, o heart's pain") Vespers 5;

BWV 244, St. Matthew Passion
1. O Lamm Gottes unschuldig [s. chorale] (Agnus Dei)
3. Herzliebster Jesu, was hast du verbrochen (V. 1, Herzliebster Jesu)
16(10). Ich bins, ich solte büssen (V. 5, O welt, sieh hier dein Leben)
21(15). Erkenne mich, mein Hüter (V. 5, O Haupt voll Blut, mel. Herzlich tut)
23(17). Ich will hier bei dir stehen (V. 6, O Haupt voll Blut, Herzlich tut)
25(19). "Was ist die Ursach aller solcher Plagen? (V.3, Herzliebster Jesu)
31(25). Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit (Albrecht)
35 (29). O Mensch, bewein' dein' Sünde groß [chorus]
35(a). Jesum, laß ich nicht von mir (S. 6, Meinen Jesum, laß ich nicht)
38(32). Mir hat die Welt trüglich gericht (S. 5, In dich hab ich gehoffet )
44(36). Wer hat dich so geschlagen (S. 3, O welt, sieh hier dein Leben)
48(40). Bin ich gleich von dir gewichen (S. 6, Werde munter, mein Gemüthe)
53(44). Befiehl du deine Wege (S. 6, Befiehl du deine Wege, Herzlich tut)
55(46). Wie wunderbarlich ist doch diese Strafe (V. 4, Herzliebster Jesu)
63(54). O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden (V.1, O Haupt voll Blut, Herzlich tut)
Du edles angesichte (V. 2, O Haupt voll Blut, Herzlich tut)
72(63). Wenn ich einmal soll scheiden (V. 9, O Haupt,voll Blut, Herzlich tut)

BWV 245, St. John Passion
1(a). O Mensch, bewein' dein' Sünde groß [chorus]=244/35
7 (3). O große Lieb (S. 7, Herzliebster Jesu)
9 (5). Dein will Gesche, (S. 4, Vater unser im Himmelreich)
15 (11). Wer hat dich so geschlagen (V. 3, O Welt, sieh' hier dein Leben)
Ich, ich und meine Sünden (V. 4, O Welt, sieh' hier dein Leben)
15(a). Jesu deine Passion (S. chorale)=245a (V. 33, Jesu Leiden, Pein)
20 (14). Petrus, der nicht denk zurück (S. 10, Jesu Leiden, Pein)
21 (15). Christus, der uns selimacht (Patris sapientia, M. Weisse)
27 (17). Ach großer König (S. 8, Herzliebster Jesu)
Ich kann's mit meinen Sinnen (S. 9, Herzliebster Jesu)
40 (22). Durch dein Gefängnis, (?Postel; Mach's mit mir)
52 (26). In meines Herzens grunde (V. 3, Valet will ich dir geben)
56 (28). Er nahm alles wohl (V. 20, Jesu Leiden, Pein)
65 (37). O hilf, Christe, Gottes Sohn (V. 8, Christus der uns selig macht)
68 (40). Ach Herr, laß dein lieb Engelein (V. 3, Herzlich Lieb' hab' ich)
68 (40)(a). Christe, du Lamm Gottes (Agnus Dei)=23/4

BWV 247, St. Mark Passion
7 (3). Sie stellen uns (V.4, Wo Gott, der Herr/Ach lieben Christen)
11 (5). Mir hat die Welt (V5. In dich hab ich gehoffet/Da Jesu am dem)
20 (7). Ich, Ich und meine Sünde ( V. 4, O Welt, sieh' hier dein Leben)
30 (11). Wach auf, o Mensch (V. 13, O Ewigkeit, du Donnerwort)
41 (13). Betrübtes Herz (mel. Wenn mein Stündlein)
44 (15). Machs mit mir Gott
56 (21). Jesu, ohne Mißetat (V. 8, Jesu, Leiden, Pein)
58 (23). Ich will hier bei dir stehen (Ich will/O Haupt voll Blut)
63 (26). Was Menschenkraft (V. 2, Wo Gott der Herr/Ach lieben Christen)
67 (28). Befiehl du deine Wege (V. 1, Befiehl/O Haupt voll Blut, mel. Herzlich tut)
77 (30). Du edles angesichte (V. 2, Befiehl/O Haupt voll Blut, Herzlich tut)
89 (32). Herr, ich habe Mißgehandelt
110 (36). Man hat dich sehr (V. 4, Jesu, meines Lebens Leben)
112 (38). Das Wort sie sollen (V. 4, Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott)
120 (41). Keinen hat Gott verlassen
130 (44). O Jesu du, mein Hilf (V. 8, O Traurigkeit, o Herzeleid)

Quinquageisma estomihi Sunday Cantatas

Christe, du Lamm Gottes, BWV 22/4, chorale chorus
Herr Christ, der einig Gottes Sohn, BWV 22/5 chorale chorus
Herr Jesu Christ, wahr' Mensch und Gott, BWV 127/1, chorale chorus; BWV 336
V. 5, Ach herr, vergib all unsre Schuld, BWV 127/5
Ich will hier bei dir stehen (SA chorale aria), BWV 159/2
Jesu, deine Passion (V. 33, Jesu Leiden, Pein), BWV 159/5

Various
BWV 106/4, Glorie, Lob, Her und Herrlichkeit (mel. In dich hab), chorale chorus
BWV 131/2, Erbarm dich mein in solcher Last (S. 2, Herr Jesu Christ, du höchstes Gut)
Weimar Funeral I; BC B-19/3, Ach, wie flüchtig=?BWV 26/2
WFI; BC B-19/6, Herzlich tut mich verlangen =?BWV c.270
WFI; BC B-19/18, Christus, der ist mein Leben=?BWV 281
WFI; BC B-19/21, Nun hab ich überwunden=?BWV 282 (V. 3, Christus, der ist)
Weimar-Gotha; BC D-1/6, Christus, der uns selig macht (M. Weisse) =BWV 283,
Keiser Mark D-5/5, Was mein Gott will [cf 244/31(25)]
Keiser Mark D-5/9, BWV 500a, So gehest du nun (chorale aria, 1726?JSB)
Keiser Mark D-5/14a, BWV 1084, Hilf Christe, Gottes Sohn (M. Weisse)
Keiser Mark D-5/23, Wenn ich einmal so scheiden (V. 9, O Haupt) (1726, S. aria)
Keiser Mark D-5/49, O Traurigkeit, o Herzeleid (all 8 VV.)

Other Plain, Sacred, and Organ Chorales

Ach (O), wir armen Sunder, BWV 407
Als Jesus Christus in der Nacht BWV 265, BWV1108
Brich entzwei, mein armes Herze: BWV 444
Da der Herr Christ zu Tische saß, BWV 285
Die bitter Leidenzeit beginnet abermal, BWV 450
Die grosser Schmerzenmann, BWV 300
Erbarm dich mein, O Herre Gott, BWV 305
Es ist vollbracht! Vergiß ja nicxht dies Wort, BWV 458
Herr Jesu Christ, du meist bereit', BWV333
Herr Jesu Christ, meins Lebens Licht: BWV 335, 750
Herzlich Lieb' hab' ich, BWV 174/5 149/7; 340
Herzlich tut mich verlangen, BWV 127/1, 270, 271,
Heut ist, O Mensch, ein großer Trauertag, BWV341
Hilf Gott, dass mir's gelinge, BWV624
Jesu, dein Liebeswunden: BWV 471, deest Weimar 8
Jesu, Meine Freude: BWV 227 (VV 1-6)
Komm, Jesu, komm, BWV 229
Komm, süßer Tod, BWV478
Kyrie eleison: BWV 233a
Kyrie, Gott Vater in Ewigkeit, BWV 371
Lasset uns mit Jesu ziehen, BWV 413, 481
Mein Jesu! Was vor Seelenweh, BWV 487, deest Weimar 11
Meinen Jesum, laß ich nicht, BWV 379, 380
O du Liebe, mein Leibe, BWV 491
O Herzensangst, 407
O Jesu Christ, meins Lebens Licht, 118
O Jesu, wie ist dein Gestalt, 1094
O Lamm Gottes unschuldig, 618, 1085
O Mensch, bewein' dein' Sünde groß, 402, 622
O Mensch, schau Jesu Cgristum an, 403
O Traurigkeit, o Herzeleid, BWV Anh. 200 (Orgelbüchlein fragment)
O Welt, ich muß dich lassen (O welt, sieh hier dein Leben), 393, 394, 395
Schaut ihr Sunder, 408
Sei gegrüßet, Jesu gütig, 410, 499, 768/1
Selig, wer an Jesum denkt, 498
So gibst du nun, mein Jesu, gute Nacht, 412, 501
Valet will ich dir geben, 415
Warum sollt ich ich denn grämen, BWV 228 (VV 11, 12)
Wenn mein Stündlein vorhanden ist, 428, 429, 430
Werde munter, mein Gemüthe, 146/8, 55/5=?D-1
Wir danken dir, Herr Jesu Christ, 623
Wo Gott der Herr/Ach lieben Christen, 178/1, 178/7, 258

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 17, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote:
< Vesper Chorales
Ecce quomodo moritur justus ("Behold how dies the righteous person"), Jacob Gallus; Vespers 4 >

What criteria are you using for "chorale"? "Ecce Quomodo" is a four-voice motet by Jacob Handl (1550-1591) which sets a non-metrical prose text:

Ecce quomodo moritur justus
et nemo percipit corde.
Viri justi tolluntur
et nemo considerat.
A facie iniquitatis
sublatus est justus
et erit in pace memoria eius:
in pace factus est locus ejus
et in Sion habitatio eius
et erit in pace memoria eius.

Behold how the righteous man dies
And no one understands.
Righteous men are taken away
And no one considers:
The righteous man has been taken away from present iniquity
And his memory shall be in peace.
In peace is his place
And in Sion is his homestead.
And his memory shall be in peace.

This is the motet that was sung every Good Friday after the Passion. A link to the score at: http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Jacob_Handl

William Hoffman wrote (April 17 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Given the long tradition of setting all four Passions as a cycle in both Lutheran and Catholic traditions, is there any evidence that Bach intended to write a tetralogy of Passion settings, or do we read common factors into the SJP and SMP when they are really independent works?
Bach's Ring Cycle! >
William Hoffman replies: I think the ringing answer to both of Doug's questions is YES!
As past of his well-regulated church music, we have five "Bach" Passions systematically listed. Besides trying to account for them, we also have the contemporary practice of the lack of pride of authorship as well as the operatic anomaly that none is an "opus," carved in stone, the necessarily definitive version. All of these concerns are 19th century Romantic obsessions and mythologies.

As to common factors, I believe that Bach's great Passion mosaic, which we are still learning about, is interelated, woven with many similar threads as well as strands from other composers and poets. It's one giant, kaleidoscopic tapestry! We also have Wolff's theme of the Bach Oratorios as a "Sacred drama trilogy." However, if we accept Duerr;s thesis of a lost Pentecost Oratorio, Voila! we have a Ring Cycle. Then, if we accept the Weimar Passion, we have a second Ring Cycle. Eat your heart out, Dickie!

As to the previous question about two-part cantatas: Duerr (Cantatas, 23) says that Bach was limited in main service to 30 minutes for each work. Therefore, he split them into two parts, especially the enlarged Weimar versions, or did dual cantatas, best outlined in Wolff (Learned Musician, 269) in 13 compositions: BWV 75, 76, 21, 24+185, 147, 186, 179-199, 70, 181-18, 31+4, 172+59, 194+65, and 22-23.

William Hoffman wrote (April 18 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< What criteria are you using for "chorale"? "Ecce Quomodo" is a four-voice motet by Jacob Handl (1550-1591) which sets a non-metrical prose text: >
It is a loose usage, or conflation of terms, which also includes sacred hymns, songs, arias, lieder, etc. We have a history of Lutherans taking Latin motets and, through reverse contrafaction, turning out chorale-type settings in the German Mass. We also have Bach experimenting in Weimar with the Agnus Dei chorale in his figural Kyrie, BWV 233a, and in later life with settings of Pergolesi's Stabat Mater in German and the Agnus Dei, through Kuhnau, (with instruments!), as the motet "The righteous come in," BWV deest. I remember one time in graduate school tracing through Denkmaeler term "motet" and finally concluding that it is, essentially, a figural piece for one or more voices. If the piece has more than one voice, its a "mo-tet"; only one voice, it's a "less-tet."

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (April 18, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Given the long tradition of setting all four Passions as a cycle in both Lutheran and Catholic traditions, is there any evidence that Bach intended to write a tetralogy of Passion settings, or do we read common factors into the SJP and SMP when they are really independent works?
Bach's Ring Cycle! >
Actually, the concept of setting all four Passions as a cycle only appears to be a tradition of Hamburg. There is no evidence of cyclical Passion settings anywhere else.

Whilst it was customary and traditional to perform Passions (however, this tradition is also relatively new [at least since the early Middle Ages]), and even in the Catholic Church certain days were set aside for Passion narratives [Matthew on Palm Sunday, Mark on Tuesday, Luke on Wednesday, John on Good Friday], there is no concrete evidence of cyclical Passion performances outside of Hamburg.

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (April 18, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote:
< It is difficult to categorize some Bach chorales into topics such as the Passion, although there is such a category in the Helmuth Rilling's Hänssler "Complete Bach Edition," Vol. 79, part of the eight-volume collection (78-85) of chorales and sacred songs, interspersed with appropriate organ chorale preludes: www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV250-438-Rilling.htm. Some of the more obscure chorales and sacred songs from that CD are found in the listings below, including recent BWV deest/Weimar and Neumeister Collection versions.
<>
A couple of things to help you out here, Will:

1.) Actually, there is no difficulty at all in categorizing Chorales, since each Chorale has its own liturgical purpose and season.

2.) Some of your examples that you use actually hurt your point:

a.) "Christ lag in Todesbanden" is an Easter Chorale, not a Passion Chorale.

b.) "Alle Menschen muessen sterben" is liturgically non-seasonal, as it deals with death.

etc.

The problem comes that people use these Chorales and Chorale melodies out of context (i.e., using "Alle Menschen muessen sterben"'s tune to texts for Easter, Advent, and other occasions instead of funerary occasions).

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 18, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote:
>I remember one time in graduate school tracing through Denkmaeler the term "motet" and finally >concluding that it is, essentially, a figural piece for one or more voices. If the piece has >more than one voice, its a "mo-tet"; only one voice, it's a "less-tet." <
Oh, you sixties humorists! Fifties? Seventies? Whatever. I am reminded of the Mourvedre quality of a nice Chateauneuf-du-Pape, some have more-vedre, some less-vedre.

Thanks for the accurate scholarship, and clear writing, re BWV 244! A landmark, I believe.

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 18, 2009):
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote:
< A couple of things to help you out here, Will:
1.) Actually, there is no difficulty at all in categorizing Chorales, since each Chorale has >its own liturgical purpose and season. >
Is it clear that such specifity is inherent in the original creation of each Chorale, or are the liturgical purpose and season traditions which have accreted over the years?

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 18, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Given the long tradition of setting all four Passions as a cycle in both Lutheran and Catholic traditions, is there any evidence that Bach intended to write a tetralogy of Passion settings, or do we read common factors into the SJP and SMP when they are really independent works?
Bach's Ring Cycle! >
I believe Christoph Wolff addressed this point specifically, in his spoken intoduction to the recent Boston performance of the SMP by Emmanuel Music, coming down on the side of the SJP and SMP as independent works, representing the unique, apocalyptic, perspective of John, distinct from the synoptic perspective of the other three Gospels, typified by Matthew.

Perhaps Bach started out aiming for a cycle of four, but he realized in the process that a cycle of two would suffice!? He polished them up, and we have SMP and SJP to hear, contemplate, and enjoy. I accept that as his intent, SDG.

William Hoffman wrote (April 18 2009):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< I believe Christoph Wolff addressed this point specifically, in his spoken intoduction to the recent Boston performance of the SMP by Emmanuel Music, coming down on the side of the SJP and SMP as independent works, representing the unique, apocalyptic, perspective of John, distinct from the synoptic perspective of the other three Gospels, typified by Matthew.
Perhaps Bach started out aiming for a cycle of four, but he realized in the process that a cycle of two would suffice!? He polished them up, and we have SMP and SJP to hear, contemplate, and enjoy. I accept that as his intent, SDG. >
William Hoffman replies: I'm off to rehearse the Mozart Requiem.

I think Wolff and other scholars remain short-sighted: There is a fine third Passion: Mark, BWV 247., It is Bach' most concise, faithful account of the Passion Gospel with its 16 chorales. I'll have much to say about it and its clear connections to the SMP -- neither could exist without the other -- all part of a great Passion tapestry. Sadly, as one Bach choral director said to me: "I don't care about Mark, we already have two great Passions, that's enough!" The work is still a step-child among scholars who refuse to open their eyes, cast a wide net, and go wherever their journey takes them with a generosity of spirit, mind and heart!

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 18, 2009):
BWV 244 - Outside the Canon

William Hoffman wrote:
< Sadly, as one Bach choral director said to me: "I don't care about Mark, we already have two great Passions, that's enough!" >
And don't talk about different versions! 20 years ago, the Tallis Choir of Toronto did the 1725 version of the SJP. I was surprised how negative both the choir and the orchestra were about trying something outside the received tradition. Even one of the soloists complained about having to learn a new aria. Mercifully, the audience was more sympathetic. But even I have to admit that I missed the final chorale. Funny how the canon atrophies the brain.

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (April 18, 2009):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< Is it clear that such specifity is inherent in the original creation of each Chorale, or are the liturgical purpose and season traditions which have accreted over the years? >
In many cases, the specifity is self-evident and inherent. Case in point: "Christ lag in Todesbanden (or Todes Banden)" in both text and music clearly point to Easter and the Resurrection (as did the original tune and text that Luther paraphrased, "Christ ist erstanden").

However, there are some cases where things are not as clear. Case in point: the turbulent history of the tune that has (in English circles) become known as the "Passion Chorale".

Hans Leo Hassler wrote a text and tune called "Mein G'müt ist mir verwirret" for a collection of love songs and dances called "Lustgarten neuer teutscher Gesäng" (Nürnberg 1601). Four years later (1605), Christoph Knoll (Deacon in Spottau) wrote the text "Herzlich thut mich Verlangen" (a Chorale text dealing with desire for release from this life [death]). Whether he did so or not, I am not sure, but somehow the tune for Hassler's love song became used for Knoll's text. Much later still, the famous pastor and hymnist Paul(us) Gerhardt wrote two texts: "Wie soll ich dich empfangen" (1653, dealing with meeting Jesus) and "Passionssalve des heiligen Bernhardi an die Gliedmassen des HErrn JEsu" (1653 "Passion greetings of St. Bernard to the body members of the Lord Jesus" a collection of poems in the style of Buxtehudes "Membri Jesu nostri" addressed to the feet (1--"Sei mir tausendmall gegruesset"), knees (2--"Gegruesset seist du, meineKron"), hands (3--"Sei wohl gegrueesset, guter Hirt"), sides (4--"Ich gruesse dich, du froemmster Mann"), breast (5--"Gegruesset seist du, Gott, mein Heil"), heart (6--"O Herz des Koenigs aller Welt") and, finally, the face of Jesus (7 [and most famous]--"O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden")). Both these texts were set to music by Gerhardt's good friend Johann Krueger (or Crueger). In both cases ("Wie soll ich dich empfangen" and "O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden"), Krueger opted to use the exact same Hassler tune (albeit in the latter case in somewhat modified form).

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (April 18, 2009):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< However, there are some cases where things are not as clear. Case in point: the turbulent history of the tune that has (in English circles) become known as the "Passion Chorale".
Hans Leo Hassler wrote a text and tune called "Mein G'müt ist mir verwirret" for a collection of love songs and dances called "Lustgarten neuer teutscher Gesäng" (Nürnberg 1601). >
Its first use in a religious context came (I don't know how) shortly thereafter, when the 1597 text "Ach Herr, mich armen Sünder" (a cry for mercy along the lines of "Straff' mich nicht in deinen Zorn" and "Ach Gott, vom Himmel, sieh' darein") by the German theorist and composer Cyriakus Schneegaß.

In 1603 (whether by his own design or not), the tune was used again to the text "Lobet Gott. unsern Herren" by the Kantor of Frankfurt am Oder Bartholomäus Gesius.

< Four years after the tune's premiere (1605), Christoph Knoll (Deacon in Spottau) wrote the text "Herzlich thut mich Verlangen" (a Chorale text dealing with desire for release from this life [death]). Whether he did so or not, I am not sure, but somehow the tune for Hassler's love song became used for Knoll's text. >
Again in 1649 the tune was used in association with the text "Ihr Christen, auserkoren" by the deacon of the Lobenicht Church in Konigsberg, Georg Werner.

< Much later still, the famous pastor and hymnist Paul(us) Gerhardt wrote three texts: "Wie soll ich dich empfangen" (1653, dealing with meeting Jesus), "Befiehl du deine Wege" (1653, dealing with committing all troubles to God) and "Passionssalve des heiligen Bernhardi an die Gliedmassen des HErrn JEsu" (1656 "Passion greetings of St. Bernard to the body members of the Lord Jesus" a collection of poems in the style of Buxtehudes "Membri Jesu nostri" addressed to the feet (1--"Sei mir tausendmall gegruesset"), knees (2--"Gegruesset seist du, meine Kron"), hands (3--"Sei wohl gegrueesset, guter Hirt"), sides (4--"Ich gruesse dich, du froemmster Mann"), breast (5--"Gegruesset seist du, Gott, mein Heil"), heart (6--"O Herz des Koenigs aller Welt") and, finally, the face of Jesus (7 [and most famous]--"O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden")). These texts were set to music by Gerhardt's good friend Johann Krueger (or Crueger). In these three cases ("Wie soll ich dich empfangen", "Befiehl du deine Wege", and "O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden"), Krueger opted to use the exact same Hassler tune (albeit in the latter case in somewhat modified form). >

James Atkins Pritchard wrote (April 19, 2009):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< Prof. Wolff also implied (at least!) that the difference in the music that Bach composed and structured for SJP, in contrast to SMP, is directly related to the distinctly different character of the two Gospel passion stories, with reference to the apocalyptic tone of John, also the author of the Book of Revelation (finis). This leads a thoughtful person (at least this one) to ponder how confusing it would be to hear one passion text in the morning, followed by a different one in the afternoon, with commentary and amplification. As to why the four passion stories do not agree more closely in their details, I will leave to Christian theologians. I do not have any difficulty relating to Bach, perhaps wondering about the same details. >
It's far from generally agreed that the author of the Gospel of John was also the author of the Book of Revelation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Johannine_works

I'm not sure one would want--on the basis of a supposed common authorship--to allow the Book of Revelation to colour one's view of the Gospel of John or the SJP. On the other hand, I suppose that if Bach thought that the two books were written by the same person it might be the case that Revelation influenced his understanding of the Gospel of John...

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (April 19, 2009):
[To James Atkins Pritchard] Actually, Jim, the authors are different.

Current thinking is that the Gospel of John (just as the three Epistles General of John) were authored by John the Divine (the brother of James bar-Zebedee) or one of his followers. However, the author of Revelation is known only as "John of Patmos".

Silvio Battagila wrote (April 19, 2009):
impression on S.M.P. rendition by Mark padmore and orch. of enlightnement (berlin)

I wanted to share with you some impressions and thoughts about concert I was able to hear last week in Berlin. I think it could be of interest, since I read a lot about post-Rifkinian discussion over here, and first learned about the new philological points of view just recently from this valuable site. First of all I have to say I was very intrigued by the idea of corals being sang by soloists, but never had the chance of listening to some examples of it. The curiosity was strong than, and I decided to fly to Berlin from Venice where I live just to find out how in Bach's time this great work of art was performed and heard. Matthaus Passion to me is without any doubt one of the most perfect pieces of music, so my love and passionate historic interest went together pushing me on and on towards the Koncert House.

This concert was performed with a very little orchestra, as you can immatgine, and mainly with American singers who seemed to be lead by Mark Padmore. The orchestra of the age of enlightnement provided the players.

As soon as the first number started, I was much surprised by the effect: the pace didn't sound as fast as I imagined (I'm quite used to Herreweghe's, Bruggen's and Harnoncourt's...), but the corals did really sound something different - it was more of a contemplative and intimate moment than a huge and articulate thing, more confused to at times - the second soprano didn't seem to stand out enough all the chorals trough... as a whole, anyway, I was still hoping for a great time, intense music experience. But then my hopes started declining more and more, since the recitative parts started. The way Mark Padmore sang them was not at all suited for my tastes: much vibrato everywhere, unmotivate pauses, which should in his mind have brought some more effect and drama to the piece but did only let it float in an undistinguished and vague sense of waight, or cheap drama I should say. This was partly saved by the good and fair singing of Roderich Williams as Jesus, who delivered a great bass aria too at its right time. But as far as my ears where concerned, all the concert went on fairly badly: the first soprano arias were average, the second bass' ones absoultely arguable, but the most of it was Padmore's troubled voice which reminded me Villazon at times, maybe the stress of singing both the evangelist and the chorals and the tenor arias was to much for him: the more the time passed, the more doubtful I felt about his continuous pauses and stressing of the voice, his keeping the notes very long, his over-interpretation in one word. What an evangelist should sound like, in my opinion, is Coloman von pataky, Fritz Wunderlich, Aefliger and Schrier (in his good moments), not certainly like this.

When the very passionate moment of the soprano aria with the solo violin came (I'm sorry for the imprecision in spotting out this one, being blind means also that you cannot easily grasp all the datas required), I felt a big relief and started hoping again: for me that is a very poignant step, a turning point, one of my all time favourites. But what happened was that the violin playing, with all its ornatus, was so blurry aumprecise, the intonation was very arguable and the whole aria, therefore, received not the best possible light, I should say.

So, in the end, I got out of the place and asked myself what my final opinion should be. I'm not a hard-core Rifkinian now, ofcourse, but still I'd be very curious to here a good rendition of its theory (maybe such as Kuijken's). All I look for is good musical effect, so in my next years I don't think I'll avoid great choirs on Bach, as long as the spirit of sober and intimate humanity, clarety and turst is kept alive and not sold for cheap romanticism. But I'm still wondering if all this I tryed to describe, with my very poor English, was just caused by my personal ignorance or due to real matters. Does anyone have any idea about Padmore's account of S.M.P. these days? Can you tell me what you think of it?

I beg your pardon for the length of this.

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 19, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote:
>I think Wolff and other scholars remain short-sighted: There is a fine third Passion: Mark, BWV 247., It is Bach' most concise, faithful account of the Passion Gospel with its 16 chorales. I'll have much to say about it and its clear connections to the SMP -- neither could exist without the other -- all part of a great Passion tapestry. Sadly, as one Bach choral director said to me: "I don't care about Mark, we already have two great Passions, that's enough!" The work is still a step-child among scholars who refuse to open their eyes, cast a wide net, and go wherever their journey takes them with a generosity of spirit, mind and heart!<
EM replies
I look forward to Wills further thoughts (especially any fugitive ones!) on the topic, with open (striving for generosity!) mind, spirit, and heart. My comments re Wolff were based on hearing his spoken introduction to the recent Boston SMP performance, without current review of any of his scholarly publications. Any misinterpretation is my responsibility, and due to carelessnesss rather than intent.

I do think that the underlying idea is not so much the objective quality of other music, but the simple fact that the SMP and SJP were the works that Bach chose to perform again in the 1740s. There also seems to be substantial evidence that at that time (1740s), he was selecting (and perfecting?) the sacred music he wanted to leave as his legacy, in that genre. He did the same for his keyboard works, along with the few new, late, secular compositions, which are the equal (at least!) of any of his youthful and/or sacred works.

William Hoffman wrote (April 20 2009):
Beyond probing deeper into the SJP and SMP, especially their literary and spiritual sources, genesis, and provenance, we still have only scratched the large surface of the great Passion tapestry.

We still need to get beyond intrinsic 19th century rigidity and bias and 20th century obsessions, ennui, and academic onanism. There are many tertiary, literary and cultural sources still to be found, like the recent Gottsched collection. We also need to apply -- rigorouslky, systematically and pervasively -- all manner of circumstantial and collateral evidence to really grasp the big picture, find the contexts and connect the dots.

There are some major tasks ahead for those who would look in all corners and uncover all manner of information, to ask tough questions and pursue nominal, tentative answers. We need both scholars and "amateurs," musicians and music-makers, theorists and constructionists to collaborate -- and for us guys to leave our testosterone and egos at the door. I really want to learn more about:

The 1717 Weimar-Gotha Passion, its scope and place, was it a Keiser St. Mark pastiche;

The funeral music for Weimar and Koethen and their connections;

The Markus Passion and its subseqent, possibly expanded version in 1734 and beyond, especially as it relates to the SJP 1725 three arias and the BWV 198 ariosi.

Bach's entire Leipzig Passion output -- year by year -- including pastiches, other Passion oratorios, like Stoezel's in 1734 (he wrote seven of them!) and the anonymous Luke chorale Passion.

Bach's possible use of the free-standing chorales, BWV 252-500,

All those poets who contributed to the sacred music, including the woefully neglected,
embarrassing Picander -- there's a good new book about Christiane von Ziegler.

An exhaustive look at ALL the possible parody connections in the B-Minor Mass, which Joshua Rifkin started and William Scheide recently pursued.

The lost Pentcost oratorio and possible literary sources, including Christian Weiss Sr., Picander's obscure poems and the Ziegler cycle of 1729 (which has texts for all four Advent Sundays).

The lost proto cantatas (texts only) of the 1730s, including the Gottsched progressive piece of 1738, BWV Anh. 13.

I think there is still a measure of instrisic bias and ignorance. There are still major Bach scholars who make knee-jerk statements like Bach never parodied recitatives -- he did and they are among his most radical and ingenous!

For too long, Bach scholars -- have been looking for the wrong cycles of cantatas instead of the Christological cycles of Passions and Feast Day Oratorios as well as the secular dramatic music.

Ladies and Gentlemen, start your search engines and discussion groups!

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 20, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote:
< Bach's entire Leipzig Passion output -- year by year -- including pastiches, other Passion oratorios, like Stoezel's in 1734 (he wrote seven of them!) and the anonymous Luke chorale Passion. >
I would love to see a list of the Good Friday passions we know were performed during Bach's cantorate in Leipzig.

Stephen Benson wrote (April 20, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote:
< and for us guys to leave our testosterone and egos at the door. >
You really are a dreamer!

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (April 20, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< I would love to see a list of the Good Friday passions we know were performed during Bach's cantorate in Leipzig. >
Actually, one had been published in 1977 as part of the article on Bach's Passions in the Bach-Jahrbuch (article by Andreas Gloeckner), and further added to in the 2006 and 2008 Bach-Jahrbuchs.

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 20, 2009):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.]
Is it posted on this site?

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (April 20, 2009):
[To Douglas Cowling] None of the Bach-Jahrbuch articles have ever (as far as I know) been posted on the site (they are all in German, even though some of the authors are Americans or English-speakers).

For those unfamiliar with it, the Bach-Jahrbuch is the principal journal/magazine published by the Neue Bach-Gesellschaft (which was founded in 1901 upon the closure of the Alte Bach-Gesellschaft [whose aim was the collection and publication of all of Bach's works], whose purpose was and is the further spread of Bach's music worldwide, the organization of Bach festivals around the world, the establishment of a Bach museum in Eisenach, and the further research into Bach, his life, times, and music). Along with the Bach Magazin (published by the Bach-Archiv Leipzig), it represents the pinacle of Bach scholarship publication.

William Hoffman wrote (April 20 2009):
[To Douglas Cowling]
http://www.s-line.de/homepages/bachdiskographie/kaneins/karfreitag_passionen.html

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 20, 2009):
[To William Hoffman] Is the URL correct? I can't get it to open

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 20, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Is it posted on this site? >
David replied to Doug:
>None of the Bach-Jahrbuch articles have ever (as far as I know) been posted on the site (they are all in German, even though some of the authors are Americans or English-speakers).<
[...]

EM adds:
I hope the thread is clear. Doug's question/request is important. If it is not a copyright infringement, adding the known sequence of Bachs passion performances to theBCW archives would be a valuable addition to our discussions and to the reference convenience of the website.

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 20, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote:
>There are some major tasks ahead for those who would look in all corners and uncover all manner of information, to ask tough questions and pursue nominal, tentative answers. We need both scholars and "amateurs," musicians and music-makers, theorists and constructionists to collaborate -- and for us guys to leave our testosterone and egos at the door.<
Steve replied (re testosterone and egos):
>You really are a dreamer!<
EM adds:
Perhaps, but IMO the increased BCW participation of many ladies over the past year or so has at least ameliorated the tendency of us guys to pontificate (or worse).

Indeed, crank up those search engines, ladies and gentlemen!

Aryeh Oron wrote (April 20, 2009):
Known Early Performances of Bach's SMP

Thomas Braatz contributed is a list of early performances of the SMP.
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/SMPDaten.htm
Linked from:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV244.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/index.htm

The list is considered 'a work in progress'.
Readers are encouraged to send me corrections and/or additions.

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 20, 2009):
[To Aryeh Oron] I love this contemporary comment on Mendelssohn's first performance of the SMP:

Carl Friedrich Rungenhagen, in his report to the Sing-Akademie, stated: ³The concert was successful, the effect upon the listeners profound, and the cash proceeds significant.²

The perfect concert!

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 20, 2009):
[To Aryeh Oron]
"1841, Germany, Leipzig
Mendelssohn gives a performance of Bachıs SMP in the Thomaskirche in Leipzig. Clara Schumann-Wieck has the following entry in her family diary regarding this performance: ³As a way of erecting a monument to Bach, Mendelssohn gave a performance of Bachıs OPassions-Musikı [the SMP is obviously implied here] just as he had already done just a year ago [here the reference is to an organ recital of Bachıs music which Mendelssohn had given for the same purpose]. We [Robert Schumann and Clara] had bad seats and could barely hear the music. This is the reason why we left after the first part. I derived a lot more pleasure from it when I heard it for the first time in Berlin. This was probably due to the better acoustic environment of the concert hall in Berlin, a place ideally suited for such music; while the same was not true for the Thomaskirche because the ceiling is much too high.²
[Although there were renovations of the Thomaskirche after Bachıs death in the second half of the 18th century {the main organ had been moved awafrom the position it had had during Bachıs tenure}, the greatest expansion of the interior, particularly the west end and both sides of the church, took place from 1885-1888. What is not clear from Clara Schumann-Wieckıs report is the location of the performers. Was there an expectation that the performers should be seen as well as heard as in a regular concert hall? Certainly the number of performers involved would have been comparable to the number used in the Berlin performances, so why had the volume of sound produced by a large choir and orchestra suffered so considerably.]"

This is a fascinating example of how quickly Bach's Passions became divorced from their original performance context and became monumental concert works. If the Leipzig forces were comparable to the Berlin performance with a chorus of 150, the performers must have been positioned at the front of the church with the consequent muddying of the sound which continues to plague modern performances in large reverberent buildings.

It's worth noting that this taste for large-scale performances of Baroque works was established by the last quarter of the 18th century at least in England for the monster concerts of Handel's oratorios. It would be interesting to know the size of CPE Bach's choir and orchestra.

William Hoffman wrote (April 20, 2009):
William Hoffman replies: just one minor addition to Thomas Braatz' fine summary:

No. 30, my recent SMP selective annotaed bibliography on SMP, No. 30, Gloeckner NBA IIV/b, BWV 244b, English trans:

Farlau's SMP copy (c.1756) was one of three presumed Bach Passions performed in Leipzig by Kantor Friedrich Doles, as recalled later by student Johann Friedrich Rochlitz. The other two "Bach" Passions in Doles' possession were copies of the apocryphal St. Luke Passion, BWV 246, and the Passion oratorio, "Jesu, deine Passion," later attributed to Weimar capellmeister Ernst Wilhelm Wolf (1735-1792).

William Hoffman wrote (April 20, 2009):
Chronologie der durch Bach aufgeführten Passionsmusiken, eigene Kompositionen sowie Werke anderer Komponisten in der durch Bach eingerichteten Fassungen

Exkurs V: Liturgische Ordnung der Karfeitagsvesper zur Bach-Zeit

zurück

Aufführungsjahr
BWV
BC
VBN
Titel
Bemerkungen

bis 1711
--
--
--
Keine Passionsmusiken bislang nachweisbar

1712
--
BC D 5
VBN
I/K/1
Weimarer Fassung der wohl zu unrecht
Reinhard Kaiser zugeschriebene Markuspassion,
Komponist evt.Friedrich Nicolaus Brauns/Bruhns oder Gottfried Kaiser - Reinhard Keisers Vater? -,
Aufführung wohl 1713, evt. aber auch schon 1712,
Eingriffe und Ergänzungen durch Bach.
Bachs-Abschrift weicht zum Teil stark von anderen Quellen ab,
ob und in wieweit diese Änderungen durch Bach veranlasst wurden ist derzeit nicht zu ermitteln.

1713
1714 - 1716
--
--
--
Keine Passionsmusik bislang nachweisbar

26. März 1717
deest
BC D 1
--
Evt. Aufführung der sogenannten Weimarer-/Gothaer-Passion BWV deest / BC D 1, Aufführung wohl am 26. März 1717 in der Kirche zu Schloß Friedrichstein zu Gotha. JSBach vertrat den im Sterben liegenden Christian Friedrich Witt (?13. April 1717), dem Kapellmeister von Herzog Friedrich II. Am 12. April erhielt Bach hierfür 12 Taler,
offenbar gab es auch einen Textdruck, der sich leider nicht erhalten hat. Musik vielleicht teilweise in BWV 244/245 erhalten?

1718 - 1723
--
--
--
Keine Passionsmusiken bislang nachweisbar

07. April 1724
BWV 245 I
BC D 2a
--
Johannespassion, I. Fassung

30. März 1725
BWV 245 II (a, b, c)
BC D 2b
--
Johannespassion, II. Fassung

19. April. 1726
deest
--
VBN
I/K/1
Leipziger Fassung der wohl zu unrecht Reinhard Kaiser
zugeschriebene Markuspassion,
Komponist evt.Friedrich Nicolaus Brauns/Bruhns oder Gottfried Kaiser - Reinhard Keisers Vater? -.
WA der schon 1713, evt. aber auch schon 1712 in Weimar/Gotha aufgeführten Passion.
Es gibt von Bachdurchgeführte Eingriffe und Ergänzungen.

11. April 1727
BWV 244b
BC D 3a
--
EA ? der Matthäuspassion
wohl nicht erst 1729,. d. h. Aufführung 1729 wäre WA

26. März 1728
BWV 245 III
BC D 2c
--
Johannespassion, III. Fassung 1728/1730?
wohl aber erst 1732

15. April 1729
BWV 244b
BC D 3a
--
EA? eher WA der Matthäuspassion
EA wohl eher 1727 und nicht erst 1729

07. April 1730
BWV 246/Anh. II 30
--
VBN I/An/8
EA der apokryphe Lukasspasion
(Komponist evt. J. M. Molter)
(wohl nicht Johannespassion, III. Fassung wohl erst 1732)
Eine Aufführung der Lukasspassion wird von Daniel R. Melamed bezweifelt (BJ 2006)

23. März 1731
BWV 247
BC D 4
--
Markuspassion, nur Text erhalten

11. April 1732
BWV 245 III
BC D 2c
--
Johannespassion, III. Fassung
wohl nicht schon schon 1728/1730

03. März 1733
--
--
--
wegen Landestrauer keine Passionsmusik aufgeführt

23. April 1734
--
--
--
Passionsoratorium "Ein Lämmlein geht und trät die Schuld" von. G. H. Stölzel
(Quelle: Bach-Jahrbuch 2008 S. 77 ff, Tatjana Schabalina, Textheft aufgefunden
in der Nationalbibliothek St. Petersburg, Signatur 6.49.9.47)
Ob Eingriffe und Änderungen durch Bach erfolgten ist derzeit nicht zu ermitteln.

08. April 1735
BWV 246/Anh. II 30
--
VBN I/An/8
WA der apokryphe Lukasspasion mit Einfügungen durch Bach
(Komponist evt. J. M. Molter)
EiAufführung wird von Daniel R. Melamed bezweifelt (BJ 2006), s.o.

29. März 1736
BWV 244
BC 3 b
--
WA Matthäuspassion mit Überarbeitungen

19. April 1737
--
--
--
Keine Passionsmusik bislang nachweisbar

04. April 1738
--
--
--
Keine Passionsmusik bislang nachweisbar

27. März 1739
BWV 245 unv. Revision
BC D 2e
--
Beginn der Revision der Johannespassion,
nur Sätze 1-10 / T. 42 fertiggestellt.
Abbruch evt. wegen der Untersagung einer
Aufführung durch den Leipziger Rat ?
Ob eine Passionsmusik aufgeführt wurde
und wenn ja welche, ist derzeit nicht abschliessend zu klären,
evt. Aufführung der Brockespassion von Telemann
(??; Quelle: Wolff, Christoph, JSBach 2000 S. 310ff.)

15. April 1740
--
--
--
Keine Passionsmusik bislang nachweisbar

31. März 1741
--
--
--
Keine Passionsmusik bislang nachweisbar

23. März 1742
BWV 244
BC D 3b
--
WA der Matthäuspassion in der
Fassung von 1736, wiederum Revisionen

ca. 1743 bis um 1746
BWV 244
BC D 3b
--
WA der Matthäuspassion,
wiederum mit Revisionen,
wohl in den Jahren ca. 1743 bis um 1746,
Jahr bislang nicht exakt zu ermitteln.

12. April 1743
--
--
--
Keine Passionsmusik bislang nachweisbar,siehe jedoch oben

27. März 1744
--
--
--
Keine Passionsmusik bislang nachweisbar,siehe jedoch oben

16. April 1745
--
--
--
Keine Passionsmusik bislang nachweisbar,siehe jedoch oben,
evt. Lukaspassion BWV 246 (??; Quelle: Wolff, Christoph, JSBach 2000 S. 310ff.)

08. April 1746
--
--
--
Keine Passionsmusik bislang nachweisbar,siehe jedoch oben
evt. Händel Brockespassion (??; Quelle: Wolff, Christoph, JSBach 2000 S. 310ff.)

31. April 1747 oder 12. April 1748
BWV deest
BC D 5
VBN I/K/2
Passticcio aus der wohl zu unrecht Reinhard Kaiser zugeschriebene Markuspassion,
Komponist evt.Friedrich Nicolaus Brauns/Bruhns oder Gottfried Kaiser - Reinhard Keisers Vater? -.unter Einfügung
Unter anderem Einfügung von 7 Arien aus der Brockespassion von Georg Friedrich Haendel,
zusammengestellt von JSBach mit Erweiterungen und Ergänzungen.

04. März 1749
BWV 245 IV
BC D 2d
--
WA der Johannespassion,
Annährung an die Fassung 1724, jedoch erweiterte Aufführungsapparat
wesentliche Textänderung (evt. auf äußeren Zwang ?),
Revisionen von 1739 wurden nicht übernommen!!!

27. März 1750
--
--
--
Keine Passionsmusik bislang nachweisbar

Copyright İ 2002 - by Jochen Grob
Alle Angaben ohne Gewähr.
Fehler und Irrtümer vorbehalten
Quellen siehe LiteraturverzeichnisLetzte Aktualisierung: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:55:18 GMT

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 20, 2009):
[To William Hoffman]
Here's the URL without spaces:
http://www.s-line.de/homepages/bachdiskographie/kaneins/exkurs-passions-kalendarium.htm

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 20, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
>The perfect concert! <
Especially the cash proceeds.

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 20, 2009):
Will Hoffman cited the chronology of Bachs passion performances (his own, and others) as understood (and copyright by others) as of 2002. I note some details for highlighting:

For the critical period 1727 to 1732, the sequence is:
1727, SMP, BWV 244b
1728, SJP, BWV 245 III
1729, SMP, BWV 244b
1730, Lukaspassion (comp. J. M. Molter), BWV 246
1731, Markuspassion, BWV 247
1732, SJP, BWV 245 III

Although there is a hint of a cyclic progression (John, Matthew, Luke, Mark, John) from 1728 to 1732, it does not not appear to extend either previously or going forward. Especially into the 1740s, where we have:
1742, 1743, SMP, BWV 244
1749, SJP, BWV 245 IV
No performance of the Markuspassion, BWV 247.

If I have made any errors in a quick read of the German text, please post corrections. I am enchanted and enamored (if not yet intellectually convinced) with Wills tapestry of passions. I look forward to ongoing discussion.

Aloha, Ed (amateur) Myskowski

William Hoffman wrote (April 20, 2009):
[To Douglas Cowling] The URL works only if the entire listing is underlined with -ndaerium.html (full extension: html) try to Google it!

 

Continue on Part 17

Matthäus-Passion BWV 244: Details
Recordings: 1900-1949 | 1950-1959 | 1960-1969 | 1970-1979 | 1980-1989 | 1990-1999 | 2000-2009 | 2010-2019 | Individual Movements
General Discussions:
Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6 | Part 7 | Part 8 | Part 9 | Part 10 | Part 11 | Part 12 | Part 13 | Part 14 | Part 15 | Part 16 | Part 17 | BWV 244a | BWV 244b
Systemetic Discussions:
Part 1: Mvts. 1-8 | Part 2: Mvts. 9-20 | Part 3: Mvts. 21-29 | Part 4: Mvts. 30-40 | Part 5: Mvts. 41-50 | Part 6: Mvts. 51-57 | Part 7: Mvts. 58-63b | Part 8: Mvts. 63c-68 | Part 9: Role of the Evangelist
Individual Recordings:
BWV 244 - L. Bernstein | BWV 244 - F. Brüggen | BWV 244 - J. Butt | BWV 244 - R. Chailly | BWV 244 - S. Cleobury | BWV 244 - J. Daus | BWV 244 - D. Fasolis | BWV 244 - W. Furtwängler | BWV 244 - J.E. Gardiner | BWV 244 - W. Gönnenwein | BWV 244 - P. Goodwin | BWV 244 - E.z. Guttenberg | BWV 244 - N. Harnoncourt | BWV 244 - P. Herreweghe | BWV 244 - R. Jacques | BWV 244 - H.v. Karajan | BWV 244 - O. Klemperer | BWV 244 - T. Koopman | BWV 244 - S. Koussevitzky | BWV 244 - S. Kuijken | BWV 244 - F. Lehmann | BWV 244 - G. Leonhardt | BWV 244 - P.J. Leusink | BWV 244 - E.&R. Mauersberger | BWV 244 - H. Max | BWV 244 - P. McCreesh | BWV 244 - W. Mengelberg | BWV 244 - K. Münchinger | BWV 244 - R. Norrington | BWV 244 - G. Oberfrank | BWV 244 - S. Ozawa | BWV 244 - A. Parrott | BWV 244 - G. Ramin | BWV 244 - S. Rattlr | BWV 244 - K. Richter | BWV 244 - H. Rilling | BWV 244 - H.J. Rotzsch | BWV 244 - H. Scherchen | BWV 244 - G. Solti | BWV 244 - C. Spering | BWV 244 - M. Suzuki | BWV 244 - J.v. Veldhoven | BWV 244 - B. Walter | BWV 244 - F. Werner | BWV 244 - M. Wöldike
Articles:
Saint Matthew Passion, BWV 244 [T.N. Towe] | Two Easter St. Matthew Passions (Plus One) [U. Golomb] | St. Matthew Passion from Harnoncourt [D. Satz] | The Passion according to Saint Matthew BWV 244 [J. Rifkin] | The Relationship between BWV 244a (Trauermusik) and BWV 244b (SMP Frühfassung) [T. Braatz] | Matthäus-Passion BWV 244 - Early History (A Selective, Annotated Bibliography) [W. Hoffman] | Spiritual Sources of Bach's St. Matthew Passion [W. Hoffman] | Bach and the "Great Passion" [D.G. Lebut Jr.] | The Genesis of Bach's `Great Passion': 1724-29 [W. Hoffman] | Early Performances of Bach's SMP [T. Braatz]

Recordings & Discussions of Other Vocal Works: Main Page | Motets BWV 225-231 | Mass in B minor BWV 232 | Missae Breves & Sanctus BWV 233-242 | Magnificat BWV 243 | Matthäus-Passion BWV 244 | Johannes-Passion BWV 245 | Lukas-Passion BWV 246 | Markus-Passion BWV 247 | Weihnachts-Oratorium BWV 248 | Oster-Oratorium BWV 249 | Chorales BWV 250-438 | Geistliche Lieder BWV 439-507 | AMN BWV 508-523 | Quodlibet BWV 524 | Aria BWV 1127

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