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Cantata BWV 244a
Klagt, Kinder, klagt es aller Welt

Discussions

BWV 244a --- HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

David Glenn Lebut Jr.
wrote (September 14, 2003):
I realize this might be out of order, but I must ask anyways. I am reconstructing the music for the Trauerkantate "Klagt, Kinder, klagt es aller Welt" BWV 244a, which Bach wrote for the funeral services for Prince Leopold of Anhalt-Köthen. My question is in the Rezitativ movements, what voice(s) were they written for (in order by movement number) and in the Arien (not the Arien fuer Chor, but the Soloarien), are the voices the same as the ones that they were parodied from (namely the Arien movements from the Matthaeuspassion)?

Ludwig wrote (September 14, 2003):
[David Glenn Lebut Jr.] I am unable to listen before answering but most likely you are correctand you will find the same in the Mass in B minor (BWV 232) which is the genesis---so it seems to me of all of his choral works and some secular as he borrowed heavily from the Mass.

If you borrowed from the Mass you would not be out of line as Bach himself in a pinch would have done the same.You also might try borrowing from some of the instrumental works also.

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (September 15, 2003):
[To Ludwig] What about the Rezitativ Movements, though? the only text I have (which can be found on Z. Philip Ambrose's Web Site) only lists the movements and words. Unlike the Bischoff site (which lists instrumentation and voicing as well), the Ambrose site does not list what voices were intended for what movements, nor what instrumentation (which might be allright, since the score (as far as known) is not extant).

Thomas Braatz wrote (September 15, 2003):
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote: >>I realize this might be out of order, but I must ask anyways. I am reconstructing the music for the Trauerkantate "Klagt, Kinder, klagt es aller Welt" BWV 244a, which Bach wrote for the funeral services for Prince Leopold of Anhalt-Koethen. My question is in the Rezitativ movements, what voice(s) were they written for (in order by movement number) and in the Arien (not the Arien fuer Chor, but the Soloarien), are the voices the same as the ones that they were parodied from (namely the Arien movements from the Matthaeuspassion)?<<
NBA II/5 KB (Alfred Dürr) indicates that only the text of the Trauerkantate has survived. I assume that you already have the existing text for the Trauerkantate from the Ambrose site. No indication for the voices used is given by the NBA since no reliable copy of the music for the Trauerkantate is available. Also, it is doubtful that some of the mvts. from the Trauerkantate were entirely original as the Trauerkantate may have contained mvts. from a yet earlier original work. All of this is based upon reasonable conjecture. Only the texts for the arias in the Trauerkantate are reprinted in the NBA notes (mvts. 3, 5, 22, 19 w. 2 Choirs, 17, 10, 12, 15, 20 and 24 -- which are compared with mvts. 6, 8, 13, 20, 23, 39, 49, 57, 65, and 68 of BWV 244.) No recitatives are noted nor are the voices designated. One would have to assume that they might have been the same, but there is no guarantee for this.

John Pike wrote (September 15, 2003):
[To Thomas Braatz] Do you have web sites for Ambrose and the NBA, and does Alfred Dürr have a web site, or is he already dead?

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (September 16, 2003):
[To John Pike] The Z. Philip Ambrose site is at: http://www.uvm.edu/~classics/faculty/bach/. I have yet to find a Neue Bach-Ausgabe site (anjd I have tried many times). As to Alfred Dürr, I don't know if he is dead (I assume not since he [from what I have heard] is one of the principle people involved in the Bach-Kompendium project that was completed 5 years ago and has published another work on the history of the Johannespassion and the Keiser/Bruhns Markuspassion Pasticcios of Bach's.

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (September 16, 2003):
[To Thomas Braatz] I have the text from Ambrose's site. You could find the site at: http://www.uvm.edu/~classics/faculty/bach/. In the header for the text it lists the sources of the Arien and Chor movements, but says nothingabout the Rezitativ movements. That is why I posted. My question is:

Would the Rezitativ movements be exclusively for the Tenor (as they are in the Passions Bach wrote), or would other voices be involved as well? I grant that most of what I know of Bach's Choral works are from the Oratorien and Passionen and his Sacred Kantaten, and do not have that much experience in his Secular Choral music, so that is why I posed the question in this forum.

Alex Riedlmayer wrote (September 16, 2003):
Recitatives and Passions (was: 244a)

< David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote: Would the Rezitativ movements be exclusively for the Tenor (as they are in the Passions Bach wrote), >
The tenor generally doesn't sing that much recitative, with the exception of the Gospel text.

I don't see why tenors and basses singing "Evangelist" and "Jesus" parts shouldn't take arias, despite common practice. I haven't been convinced by the line that it would be confusing to have a dead Jesus singing an aria that refers to the Saviour in third
person.

< I grant that most of what I know of Bach's Choral works are from the Oratorien and Passionen and his Sacred Kantaten, and do not have that much experience in his Secular Choral music, so that is why I posed the question in this forum. >
The recitatives in secular cantatas tend to be less musically and textually interesting than their sacred counterparts. The arias are another matter: "Aufgeblasne Hitze" from BWV 201 has a very beautiful application of obbligato traverse flutes.

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (September 16, 2003):
[To Alex Riedlmayer] That was my point, though. Perhaps I should have been more explicit. When I refer to Rezitativ, I mean what the Italians call Recitativo secco ("Dry Recitative"). The other Rezitativ movements in those works I would classify (as did the German Evangelical composers of Bach's time) Accompognato. The only exceptions would be for such roles as Jesus, Petrus, Pilatus, Herodes, etc., for obvious reasons.

I also agree with you about the Arien. As far as I can tell, in Bach's day the Arien and the Stimmenrollen (Vocal roles for the German challanged) were sung by the same people, and those usually a part of the Choir. I think the reason they have soloists in the recordings for the Vocal roles and Arien is because of the name value. Alas, who would pay money (excpet us who are more knowledgeable about the subject) to hear a recording of say the Matthaeuspassion with only Thomanerchor Leipzig and the Gewandhausorchester Lepzig and another Orchester and a Knabenchor as the only performers (in other words, the Solistenstimmen would come from the Choirs and would be singing the Vocal roles and the Arien)? But people would spend hundreds of dollars to hear a recording of Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau as a soloist (either as Jesus or singing the Arien, I have recordings of him in both situations under Karl Richter in the Mattheuspassion).

Alex Riedlmayer wrote (September 16, 2003):
< David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote: When I refer to Rezitativ, I mean what the Italians call Recitativo secco ("Dry Recitative"). The other Rezitativ movements in those works I would classify (as did the German Evangelical composers of Bach's time) Accompognato. >
The scores do not use the "secco" term, but even that is irrelevant when you only have the text. It is impossible to figure out the original instrumentation without the autograph score (which

< As far as I can tell, in Bach's day the Arien and the Stimmenrollen (Vocal roles for the German challanged) were sung by the same people, and those usually a part of the Choir. I think the reason they have soloists in the recordings for the Vocal roles and Arien is because of the name value. >
You really think theyweren't employed for their vocal technique?

< Alas, who would pay money (excpet us who are more knowledgeable about the subject) to hear a recording of say the Matthaeuspassion with only Thomanerchor Leipzig and the Gewandhausorchester Lepzig and another Orchester and a Knabenchor as the only performers (in other words, the Solistenstimmen would come from the Choirs and would be singing the Vocal roles and the Arien)? >
Who, indeed, would want to pay to hear the advice of an empiric?

John Pike wrote (September 16, 2003):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.] Many thanks, David

Bradley Lehman wrote (September 16, 2003):
< David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote: (...) Would the Rezitativ movements be exclusively for the Tenor (as they are in the Passions Bach wrote), or would other voices be involved as well? I grant that most of what I know of Bach's Choral works are from the Oratorien and Passionen and his Sacred Kantaten, and do not have that much experience in his Secular Choral music, so that is why I posed the question in this forum. >
Look into the testo role in 17th century music. Then you'll have your answer.

And if recitative music is missing, why not compose it yourself? Compositional acumen would seem to be a prerequisite in any sort of reconstruction. As with reconstructing a building or an organ, you want someone who is able to build something from scratch, therefore able to anticipate any practical problems; not merely to move existing materials around and hope they fit.

John Pike wrote (September 16, 2003):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.] Try the following:
http://www.bach-institut.de/nba.html
http://www.baerenreiter.com/html/completeedi/bach.htm
http://www.baerenreiter.com/html/completeedi/gabach.htm

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (September 17, 2003):
[To Alex Riedlmayer] You ecidently didn't read very much.

1.) The question was what voice was intended for the Rezitativ movements of the Secular Kantaten? The reason I put down the alternative was to specify what I meant (which they did do in Bach's day) between theunaccompanied Rezitativ movements (which during Bach's day were called "Rezitativ") and those that were accompanied (such as those that Bach principly employed rightbefore the Arien in the Matthaeuspassion and the Weinachtsoratorium, which in his day were called "Accompognato").

2.) I was not implying that singers weren't hired in Bach's day based on their ability, but rather that the tendency nowadays is to go for a "big name" instead of following suit with the intention of the work and to have individuals as Solisten come from the Choir(s) itsself/themselves. In point of fact, the musicality of the individual was only one factor that was employed in Bach's day to find Choristers. In addition, he did not always work with "the best". It was partly this that led, after all, to his discourse in 1730 on the condiiton of performing Sacred music in his post in Leipzig. Oftentimes the "best" musicians were performing in other music ensembles which payed better or had better conditions. not to mention the fact that Bachoften had to compete with other ensembles (whether Sacred or Secular) to find musicians.

3.) The point of my final statement in the post was that oftentimes what is considered for purchase amongst the masses is not what goes along with the true intent of the work, but the "drawing power" of the performers, not that they should (or would, oftentimes) solicit advice from one moreknowledgeable (although in order to be more well-informed in one's decision-making, I would suggest that it is better to solicit the advice of such a person). after all, if one wanted to be truly in tune with Bach's intentions (for example) and one was considerring getting a recording of the Matthaeuspassion (for example), none of the recordings (with the possible exception of the one mentioned in the Bach Cantatas Web Site led by Heinz Henning) would be 100% recommended since 99.9% of all recordings use 1 Orchester instead of 2 and 2 Choeren instead of 3 (the 3rd one being the Ripieno Choir of Sopranos for the 1st and last movements of Part I).

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (September 17, 2003):
[To John Pike] Maybe I misinterpreted your post. I thought that the question was about links to the actual volumes themselves, not to lists of the volumes and the items they contain. I know ofthe links you mentioned, but they only list the volumes, not link one with the actual volumes themselves.


BWV 244a, Nr. 19

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (September 20, 2005):
Here is a question I have:

When reconstructing the music for BWV 244a, I have read where Nr. 19's music is parodied from BWV 244, Nr. 20. If this be so, then how would one reconstruct the music for Coro I, since BWV 244a, Nr. 19, is for two Choirs and accomanying orchestras? Also, how would one reconstruct the music for the first Orchestra in that movement?

Thomas Braatz. wrote (September 20, 2005):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.] Let's see:

Assuming that BWV 244a "Klagt, Kinder, klagt es aller Welt" (Trauermusik für Fürst Leopold von Anhalt-Köthen) performed on either March 23 or 24, 1729 came before BWV 244b which might have been composed and performed as early as April 11, 1727, then one might speak of a parody. However, the most recent research into this matter by Andreas Glöckner in the NBA KB II/5b (2004) pp. 32-35 seems to indicate that BWV 244b came before BWV 244a. Thus the notion of parody should be considered rather questionable in this instance.

Disregarding then just which state of the SMP came from which other state, BWV 244b, the Farlau copy of an early state of the SMP shows the following:

Mvt. 19 has a title that reads: "Tenore, 2. Travers: e 2 Hautb da Caccia" The autograph copy of the score from 1736 shows in place of "2. Travers:" "due Fiauti" = 2 recorders or Blockflöten. This raises the question whether Farlau, in light of more recent orchestration and performance practices (Farlau's copy dates from not before 1755), may have changed this orchestration (modernized it) on his own or for Doles for whom he may have prepared this copy.

In m 5 of Farlau's copy, Farlau marks the entrance of the only vocal choir in this mvt. as "Chor 2." This has led Glöckner to tentatively assign the marking "Chorus I" to the instruments listed above while retaining Farlau's designation of "Chorus II" for the vocal choir which sings the chorale intermittently.

This brings up Bach's own use of the term "Chor" in his "Entwurff" [Leipzig, 1730], where he speaks of 'per Choros' and "Chorus Musicus" but then also "Vocal Chor." The only term we do not find directly is "Instrumental Chor", but it is certainly implied since this terminology goes back directly to Michael Praetorius and perhaps even earlier.

In the 1736 version of the SMP BWV 244, mvt. 33 has two separate 'Choruses' : ("Chorus I" and "Chorus II" are marked as separate groups) performing in the same mvt. but neither has a choir ('Vocal Chor' consisting usually of SATB or some close equivalent) singing in it.

Coming back to the initial question:

We have here a mvt. for two physically separated performing groups: the tenor with his recitative accompanied by the above instruments (the basso continuo functions as the bass for both groups); and the 4-pt. SATB choir singing the chorale but probably being accompanied by the string players assigned to the 2nd group ("Chor 2") as follows: Violino I to play colla parte with the Soprano part; Violino II with the Alto, Viola with the Tenor, and the Bass is supported by the basso continuo which has the bass line of the chorale written into this part.

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (September 21, 2005):
[To Thomas Braatz] You didn't answer the question, however. There are two Choirs inteded for BWV 244a, Nr. 19. That means two 4-part Choirs. And two Orchestras. So I ask again: How would I reconstruct the first Choir's parts?

Thomas Braatz. wrote (September 21, 2005):
[To DGlenn Lebut Jr.] This misunderstanding on my part came from confusing BWV 244, BWV 244a, and BWV 244b. You actually wish to reconstruct the 1729 'Trauermusik' BWV 244a from Bach's score from 1736 of the revised BWV 244? This despite the current view held by experts such as Andreas Glöckner (NBA KB II/5b pp. 32-33, 2004) that the "Parodiebeziehungen zwischen beiden Werken konnte allerdings bislang nicht befriedigend geklärt werden" [The parody relationships between both works (BWV 244a and BWV 244) to be sure have not until now been clarified satisfactorily." And in regard to certain mvts.: "Zumindest bleiben Zweifel, ob Text und Musik ursprünglich zusammengehörten" ["At least there remain doubts whether the text and music did belong together originally."]

The point that I made regarding BWV 244b/19 (Farlau Frühfassung) applies just as well to hypothetical (no music for any of BWV 244a has ever been found) BWV 244a "Aria a 2 Chören: Geh, Leopold, zu deiner Ruh" for which the claim is made that it is based on BWV 244/20. Assuming such a conjecture equivalency, the NBA score of BWV 244/20 shows a division into Chorus I and Chorus II. Chorus I has no vocal choir/chorus. It consists simply of oboe I solo, tenor solo and continuo/organo (There are no other vocalists singing in 'Chorus I' in this mvt.) Only Chorus II has flutes and strings + continuo/organ playing essentially colla parte with the 4 vocal parts that constitute a vocal choir as we tend to know it.

Now consider once again what I had originally stated based on Bach's 'Entwurff' and terminology used by Michael Praetorius.


Cantata BWV 244a: Details | Discussions


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