Mass in B minor BWV 232
Conducted by Herbert von Karajan
A Karajan style BWV 232 a century from now!
The Face Of Bach wrote (August 30, 2000):
< Lof3 wrote: Makes me wonder about musicians trying to perform a Karajan-style B Minor Mass in a hundred years time on authentic/period 20th Century instruments!? >
And, at least, they will have four different recordings by the great HvK (two commercial, two concert [one with Leontyne Price as the soprano soloist!]) to use for a reference.
PS: I must get the Spering SMP off the shelf when I get home to Rhode Island. I could well be wrong - It certainly wouldn't be the first time - but I recall the continuo in the recitatives as having been played by two 'cellos in double stops.
EMI/Karajan MassMikel Duiversteijn wrote (November 1, 2000):
Could anyone here give me any comments on the mass by Karajan on EMI
references? It would be greatly appreciated,
Darryl Clemmons wrote (November 2, 2000):
(To Mikel Duiversteijn) This is a "large forces", modern instruments approach. Some movements are great like the Cum Sancto Spiritu. However, other movements sound
a little "muddy" like the opening Kyrie. Overall, I would give it a "B". Since it is an older recording I think you will find the price is right.
Gerlo wrote (November 3, 2000):
I suppose you mean the Mass in b minor in the 1954 version directed by Karajan, with soloists Schwarzkopf, Höffgen, Gedda, Rehfuss: EMI 181-01791-2, on LP, not available on CD I guess.
Bach, von Karajan & Harnoncourt
Riccardo Nughes wrote (May 1, 2001):
Wien 1950, H. von Karajan directing the Wiener Symphoniker : probably N. Harnoncourt was one of the cello players (he remained in WS till 1952). That's what N. Harnoncourt said about Bach and von Karajan in an interview to french magazine "Diapason" in july 1999 : "......I have a wonderful remembrance of the SMP and the Mass in B minor that we [the WS] performed under his [HvK] direction in late 40's....for the Mass he required about 100 rehearsals and the result was marvellously elaborated...no one at those times had never given a similar interpretation [of Bach music]....but when I heard him again, 20 years later, performing Bach with the Berliner Philarmoniker, simply I didn't understand what he wanted to do.....".
Uri Golomb wrote (March 30, 2003:
[To Hugo Saldias] In your recent letter, you mentioned Karajan writing in the notes to his recording of the B minor Mass. Can you tell me which one? I have both his recordings of the B minor Mass (the early 1950s EMI and the mid-1970s Deutsche Grammophon), and neither of them has notes by Karajan himself. Perhaps it's a different issue? (I know the both recordings came out on CD more than once).
Aryeh Oron wrote (March 30, 2003):
[To Uri Golomb] A quick note before going to work.
H.v. Karajan recorded the Mass in B minor 4 times ! (not two). For details, see: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV232-Karajan.htm
[V-1], [V-2], [V-4] are available. [V-3] is long time OOP.
Uri Golomb wrote (March 30, 2003):
[To Aryeh Oron] Thanks for this. I was actually aware of the first recording on your list (the live 1950 recording) -- in fact I have it. I probably forgot about it in this context because it has no liner notes. (In general, it's a horrible issue -- the beginning of the First Kyrie is missing, the track division is ridiculous, and the sound is not too good either). I wasn't aware of the third recording... So thanks for the tip.
Hugo Saldias wrote (March 31, 2003):
[To Uri Golomb] Is in the CD with the blue cover that has his picture.... I will look to make sure what I am saying but for sure Karajan said that. If it is not there may be in his book.I will get back to you...
Hugo Saldias wrote (March 31, 2003):
[To Uri Golomb] The blue CD available on Barnes and Noble stores and on line store in the one I saw the information. Also listen HOW LOUD THE ORGAN SOUNDS IN ALL ARIAS>
Hugo Saldias wrote (April 22, 2003):
[To Uri Golomb] It took me a while since March 30th, but I cam with
the answer below:
Taken form the book:Conversations with Von Karajan by Richard Osborne:
from page 48:
Asked about the Masses of Bach and Beethoven:Herr Karajan answered:
The real problem was how to train tchoir to sing these difficult works.Again,I remember many rehearsals sixty or seventy each for the Bach or Beethoven.I have watched famous conductors direct this music and I know just form looking at their backs that in some passages they are not longer in control,they are terrified.
Matthew Neugebauer wrote (April 23, 2003):
< Hugo Sladias wrote: [snip] just form looking at their backs that in some passages they are not longer in control,they are terrified. >
Sounds like my high school Wind Ensemble! But with professional singers?
Hugo Saldias wrote (April 23, 2003):
[To Matthew Neugebauer] These are the conductors that "read music from the score while conducting".On the other hand you have the conductors that have studied the score very very hard and after lots of years of repeated concerts are also repeted recordings (Karajan made 4 of the mass) they have absorbed the music and do not need the score. In some cases like Richter they conduct by memeory and also play all the recitatives in the harpsichord by memory too!!
So Karajan is talking about those that have to read while conducting because have not prepared enough. Now imagine that after 70 repetitions how come Karajan can not memorize it! Also after 4 recordings over a period of lots of years.After all these very hard work that these conductors have done and present us a mass, there are still people that DARE MAKE REMARKS WITHOUT RESPECT FOR THEIR EARNED REPUTATION AND WORK.
Karajan will conduct all his concerts by memory!
Just compare in the New Years concert from Viena every January 1st that PBS shows .Each year with a different one! There is a video or DVD in Amazon in case you did not see the Karajan concert.He is in complete control,smiles and knows 100% that viena music that had in his soul...Some of his talentaed pupils like Claudio Abado did the same, great. But there are others (I do not want to be negative) that needed a score and never smiled the whole concert till the Radezki March at the end...
I broughht this to all of your attention because for me it is important to evaluate in performance how hard had the conductor worked on the music played.
Matthew Neugebauer wrote (April 23, 2003):
[To Hugo Saldias] Oh this is what we call a little misunderstanding-
< there are still people that DARE MAKE REMARKS >WITHOUT RESPECT FOR THEIR EARNED REPUTATION AND WORK. >
Woopsy (not sarcastic). I thought we were talking about the singers-I never intended to insult H von Karajan in any way-nor was I making any remark against my Wind Ensemble conductor.
Maybe I don't understand just how difficult this music is.
Or is the "people that...make remarks" even me? Or is it Karajan?
Or maybe I'm still confused?
Hugo Saldias wrote (Apriul 23, 2003):
[To Matthew Neugebauer] It is not you.
I give you a few from the musicians that are on the black list of the Bach Cantatas gruop: Thomaskantors: Ramin (organ too loud) Thomas (too slow) Karl Richter (organ too loud) Edith Mathis:sings bad... etc.
All the above and others(Harnoncourt does not follow the score,etc)worked very hard to get to their positions. And this is all I am saying: pls be prudent and careful with your remarks especially in this public media that is the internet...you do not know who may be reading this, and may be hurting feelings...
Everybody has a preference and opinion but it should be positive.Why tell what you do not like?
Please tell us what you like, so we may join you and have a great time together,and enjoy music together like brothers and sisters.
Herbert von Karajan: Short Biography | Wiener Singverein | Berliner Philharmoniker | Recordings | General Discusions | BWV 232 - Karajan | BWV 244 – Karajan