Systematic Discussions of Bach’s Other Vocal Works
Missa Brevis in F major BWV 233
Discussions in the Week of April 18, 2004
Ehud Shiloni wrote (April 23, 2004):
Pierce Drew wrote: < Perhaps it's time to rename this discussion group? I suggest "BachBickeringAdNauseam@yahoo.com"
"Off Topic": Anybody encounter an inspiring recording of Bach's music lately? >
What a breath of fresh air! "Golden words", Pierce,
On the "OT of the week" we were supposed to look at Lutheran Mass BWV 233.
I listened to four recording, and here they are, including conductor, year made, and the Soprano in the "Qui tollis":
1. Redel, 1965, Agnes Giebel.
2. Herreweghe, 1990, Agnes Mellon.
3. McCreesh, 1997, Ann Monoyios.
4. Purcell Quartet [no conductor], 1997, Nancy Argenta.
Bach played a nifty trick with his Missae ["Brevis" or not], by assembling a slection of "the best of" movements and making each Mass into a "hit parade". The results are very satisfying for this listener.
The more learned members may prefer to focus on the non-parody movements such as the Kyrie, but I go were my ears lead me and focus on the beatifull "Qui tollis", even though it is already known from its origin in BWV 102.
Of the four sopranos, I was somewhat dissapointed by Monnoyios, whose performance was not a very confident one. This singer excelled in the early recordings of Rifkin, delivering exquisite moments in both BWV 131 and BWV 106, but here, unfortunately, that magic did not return. The other three were all very satisfying, with Argenta possibly taking a slight advantage.
As a whole, my favorite of the four remained the Purcell Quartet, where the clarity of the small forces have won the day.
A question: Does anyone know if Koopman plans to record the Missae Brevis on the tail end of his cantata project?
So much on this OT. Would like to hear from others here about BWV 233.
Gabriel Jackson wrote (April 23, 2004):
Ehud Shiloni wrote: < As a whole, my favorite of the four remained the Purcell Quartet, where the clarity of the small forces have won the day. >
I too think all four of the Purcell Quartet Masses are terrific - apparently they are recording some Cantatas (presumably also OVPP) but I don't know which ones.
Johan van Veen wrote (April 23, 2004):
Ehud Shiloni wrote: < A question: Does anyone know if Koopman plans to record the Missae Brevis on the tail end of his cantata project? >
Never heard of any plans in that direction. He has said in interviews that after the Bach cantata project is finished he wants to record all cantatas by Buxtehude.
Gabriel Jackson wrote (April 23, 2004):
[To Johan van Veen] It would be be logical though, wouldn't it, having recorded everything else? He's obviously a bit of a completist...
John Pike wrote (April 23, 2004):
I have been listening to 2 recordings of the 4 Lutheran masses. This mass is one of my favourites of the 4. I particularly like the Gloria and the next movement, Domine Deus.
The 2 recordings I have are Rilling and the Purcell Quartet on Chandos Chaconne. Both very enjoyable performances. I tend to prefer recordings on period instruments, which the Purcell Quartet recording is. It is also OVPP with a range of top soloists (Nancy Argenta, Michael Chance, Mark Padmore and Peter Harvey) singing the choruses as well as the solos. I think they are very close miked and I prefer the balance in the Rilling recording where I can here more of the wonderful instrumental lines, especially in the Domine Deus. The Chandos recording is coupled with the Lutheran mass BWV 236 (BWV 234 and 235 are on a separate CD) and an arrangement of the organ trio sonata BWV 529 in C, transposed into D for 2 violins, harpsichord and viola da Gamba. This is one of my favourite pieces by Bach, especially the last movment. It is a most enjoyable performance, although there is a point in the last movment where they seem to accelerate a bit, which I always find disconcerting.
Aryeh Oron wrote (April 24, 2004):
Mass in F major BWV 233 – Introduction
We have agreed that Year 2004 would be dedicated to systematic discussions of Bach's other vocal works. The order of discussion for 2004 is located at the following page of the Bach Cantatas Website (BCW): http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Order-2004.htm
The chosen work for this week's discussion (April 18, 2004) is the Lutheran Mass in F major BWV 233.
Recordings
The gate to all Short Lutheran works BWV 233-242 is located at the following page of the BCW: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV233-242.htm
The recordings of the Short Lutheran works are listed in the following pages of the BCW:
Complete Recordings: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV233-242-Rec1.htm
Individual Movements: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV233-242-Rec2.htm
Discussions
The Short Lutheran Works have already been discussed in the BCML, BRML and some other lists. Those discussions are compiled into the following page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV233-242-Gen.htm
Additional Information
Links to additional useful complementary information can be found at the page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV225-231.htm
a. Original Latin text and various translations
b. The sources of the Lutheran Masses' music.
c. Commentaries
I warmly recommend to you reading the beautiful description by Michael Sartorius of the background to the composition of the Lutheran Masses. See: http://www.baroquemusic.org/bqxsporck.html
Neil Halliday wrote (April 25, 2004):
A sound example can be heard here (from the link supplied by Aryeh in message 7944; there is much interesting information at the home site): http://www.baroquecds.com/musamples.html
The 1971 Flämig recording (ie, in the example) of the 1st movement is very fine indeed, and packs considerable nobility into this brief movement. The choir entries are clear, building into a powerful ensemble; the continuo has strength, the horns have the necessary impact, and the moderate tempo makes for a noble reading.
Herreweghe's recording (1st movement), which I have on tape, is brisk, light, and lacks impact. An annoying feature is the 'messa di voce' treatment applied to every long note from the horns and oboes.
The end of the last movement (Cum Sanctu Spiritu), in the example (Flaemig), shows a somwhat unvarying staccato in the continuo, which is about the only criticism I would make; otherwise the music is unhurried and pleasing. Herrewghe's fast tempo results in the continuo sounding rushed and shapeless.
My favourite movement from the Herreweghe is the 'Quoniam tu solus' alto aria, with violin solo; this features attractive singing, and a sweet and mellow sounding period violin, in some very appealing 'romantic' writing by Bach.
Arjen van Gijssel wrote (April 25, 2004):
[To Neil Halliday] I entirely agree with you. The opening choir of the Flämig recording is very noble and clear. Nice sounds of the male singers. The ending is somewhat staccato and has an overwhelming sound. I like this approach as much as a like Herreweghe's, who is much lighter indeed.
Otto wrote (April 26, 2004):
[To Arjen van Gijssel] You can listen to Herreweghes and McCreesh’s versions of BWV 233 in 64 Kbps here at my server: http://musicke.no-ip.com:8080/index.php (64kbps)
Charles Francis wrote (May 1, 2004):
Roman Catholic Mass: BWV 233
Introduction:
In writing about Bach's four short masses, the Protestant Bach biographer, Philipp Spitta, wrote:
"Hier sind prachtvoll entfaltete Blumen vonihren Stengeln geschnitten und zum verwelklichen Strauss gebunden"
["Here fine open blooms have been cut from their stems and bound in a withering bouquet"]
The Protestant theologian Albert Schweitzer noting that Bach sent them to [Catholic] Dresden "as tokens of his assiduity" commented:
"Barbarischere Parodien (als BWV 233 und 235) lassen sich nicht denken"
["More barbaric parodies (than BWV 233 and 235) cannot be imagined"]
From: http://www.baroquemusic.org/bqxsporck.html
"It appears that these four Masses had been commissioned by Count von Sporck, who had been the High Commissioner for Bohemia for a considerable time and lived at Lissa on the Elbe (Lysa-nad-Labem).... As these Masses were liturgically unsuitable for use in Leipzig it seems likely that they were composed expressly for the Count, which would explain the "assemblage" of previously composed cantata movements (most of which the Count would not have known) and the use of the Catholic liturgy."
The article speculates:
"The Count might well have attended Services at St. Thomas' Church, or at least heard some of Bach's cantata choruses in rehearsal. It only remained for the inventive Bach to sidestep any possibility of Bohemian censorship by presenting the Count with some of his best cantata movements cleverly disguised as Catholic liturgical music."
Performances (N.B. review of Kyrie only):
Martin Flämig, DRESDNER KREUZCHOR (1971):
The recording can be purchased at:
http://www.baroquecds.com/7012Web.html
Moreover, an MP3-file of the Kyrie can be found at:
http://www.baroquecds.com/7012Missae1.mp3
I agree with the assessment of Neil:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/7986
It is a very good performance.
Hans-Martin Linde, Basler Madrigalisten / Linde-Consort (1979):
This HIP recording was made at a time when it was fashionable to list the dates of the instruments to add an air of "authenticity"; needless to say the instruments are suitably old, although some models (two from 1760, one from 1767) do perhaps let the side down. As the recording dates from a time when Rifkin's OVPP theories were unknown, there are 5 Sopranos, 5 Altos, 5 Tenors and 4 Bases. The recording is well performed, smooth, if lacking in profoundity.
Hickox/Ansermet, Orch. Suisse Romande (1984):
By and large, I agree with the comments of Uri:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/8218
The Kyrie performance features a fairly prominent organ and discrete horns. The trained voices of the female sopranos can be a little overpowering at times, but otherwise a very good recording.
McCreesh, Gabrieli Consiort & Players (1998):
This is a One Voice Per Part (OVPP) recording, featuring a fairly prominent organ. It is a very well executed performance, showing that OVPP can capture emotional depth and doesn't have to be performed in the up-beat "Swingle Singers" manner.
Purcell Quartet, without conductor? (2000)
A superficial recording taken much too fast with an unpleasant Soprano voice dominating the proceedings. The vocal balance is poor. Kellner temperament is an interesting and worthwhile feature of this CD, but unfortunately the Kyrie performance is seriously impaired by others factors.
Conclusion:
Four worthwhile performances, one to avoid.
Best OVPP: McCreesh
Best Traditional: either Flämig or Hickox/Ansermet
Best HIP: Linde
Finally: I must disagree with both the emminent Spitta and Schweitzer. BWV 233 is a fine work - a personal compilation by Bach of his greatest hits.
Gabriel Jackson wrote (May 2, 2004):
Charles Francis wrote: < This is a One Voice Per Part (OVPP) recording, featuring a fairly prominent organ. It is a very well executed performance, showing that OVPP can capture emotional depth and doesn't have to be performed in the up-beat "Swingle Singers" manner. >
McCreesh's recording is not OVPP. He uses a small consort of 3.2.2.2.
Gabriel Jackson wrote (May 2, 2004):
Charles Francis wrote:
Hickox/Ansermet, Orch. Suisse Romande (1984):
By and large, I agree with the comments of Uri: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/8218
The Kyrie performance features a fairly prominent organ and discrete horns. The trained voices of the female sopranos can be a little overpowering at times, but otherwise a very good recording. >
This recording of BWV233 is conducted by Hickox, not by Ansermet (or Hickox/Ansermet, whatever that might mean)!. The orchestra is not the Suisse Romande orchestra either.
Charles Francis wrote (May 2, 2004):
Gabriel Jackson wrote: < This recording of BWV233 is conducted by Hickox, not by Ansermet (or Hickox/Ansermet, whatever that might mean)!. The orchestra is not the Suisse Romande orchestra either. >
You are correct it is actually the Hickox Singers and Orchestra.
< McCreesh's recording is not OVPP. He uses a small consort of 3.2.2.2. >
Thanks for clarifying that.
Arjen van Gijssel wrote (May 2, 2004):
[To Charles Francis] Txs for your elaborate review. I think Albert Schweitzer was definitely wrong in his assessment this time. The masses are, like you say, a personal compilation by Bach of his greatest hits. Schweitzer somehow did not like the whole parody process. A re-used work was not unique, and Art was about singular geniality.
The Purcell extrait on the site is interesting. With individual voices you should be much more aware where to come out, and where to just support the other voices. I agree it is too fast, and with poor balance. What about the same part sung by Laurenscantorij. Did you listen to that recording?
Charles Francis wrote (May 2, 2004):
[To Arjen van Gijssel] Was that the wedding link? I tried for ages to find a music link, but eventually gave up. How do I find it?
Arjen van Gijssel wrote (May 2, 2004):
[To Charles Francis] No, I mean the link on the Music section on Areyh's site, at the masses.
As for the wedding link. It is still there on: http://www.ikonrtv.nl/kerkdiensten/uitzending.asp?oId=262. You should then click on : "Bekijk de uitzending". You will see the couple entering the church on the tunes of BWV 137, and at the end of the service they are leaving the church on BWV 34. Unfortunately, Brad and Neil were not able to receive the streaming video. Let's see if you manage to get something.
Ludwig wrote (May 2, 2004):
[To Arjen van Gijssel] I submit that the so called 'roman' mass was not a roman' mass at all but most definitely a high form of the lutheran mass and was in latin because that was the international language of the elete and literate people of the times.
Lutheran and the Church of England of which are now one (THE EVANGELICALS) and the same body in America----have liturgies that are the same OR very similar as the Roman Church with major differences----the lack of the cult of mary and the cult of the adoration of Saints in most cases (although some HIGH Churches not only engage in the bells and smells things and may even say the rosary.) and failure to recognize the Pope as the ulitimate leader of Christendom.
We also must remember that Bach near the end of his life was not only famous but associated with what is now a University which at that time called for even daily speach to others of such stations in Latin. Further evidence of this is supported by the works and life of John Milton, the great English Poet.
Gabriel Jackson wrote (May 4, 2004):
Gabriel Jackson wrote: << McCreesh's recording is not OVPP. He uses a small consort of 3.2.2.2. >>
Charles Francis wrote: < Thanks for clarifying that. >
Could you not hear it?
Charles Francis wrote (May 4, 2004):
[To Gabriel Jackson] I didn't hear anything inMcCreesh's recording which is at odds with Parrott's "Essential Bach Choir" or with Rifkin's paradigm of One Voice Per Part. Granted there were ripienists as well as soloists, but that is kosher, n'est pas?
Gabriel Jackson wrote (May 4, 2004):
[To Charles Francis] That doesn't answer the question!
Charles Francis wrote (May 4, 2004):
[To Gabriel Jackson] McCreesh's ripienists do enhance the music, IMO. But note, Rifkin's OVPP theory does not stipulate a maximum of 4-singers, but acknowledges Bach used ripienists (re: the "Entwurf").
Gabriel Jackson wrote (May 4, 2004):
[To Charles Francis] True, but if you describe a performance as OVPP you are stating that it is performed with One Voice to a Part! Flummery along the lines of "I didn't hear anything in McCreesh's recording which is at odds with Parrott's "Essential Bach Choir" still doesn't answer my question "Could you not hear it" (...that McCreesh's recording uses a small choir of 3.2.2.2.)
The fact that this needed clarifying, by me, and the lack of a stright answer to my question suggest that you couldn't hear the difference between OVPP and a small choir, and that in turn casts doubt on the other judgements expressed.....
Charles Francis wrote (May 4, 2004):
[To Gabriel Jackson] Rightly or wrongly 'OVPP' tends to be equated with Rifkin's performance theories as outlined in, for example, Parrott's book "The Essential Bach Choir". I fully accept that this is sloppy language and welcome your clarification of the misleading terminology. I suggest that in future we reserve the term 'One Voice Per Part (OVPP)' for a performance practice which adheres to an extreme and unhistorical dogma of excluding ripienists.
[OT: If any of my responses strike you as "flummery", it is only because I try to respect the new group guidelines posted today on the group Web page. Needles to say, your extrapolations from the negative are misguided.]
Gabriel Jackson wrote (May 4, 2004):
[To Gabriel Jackson] As you wish,
An inability to distinguish the sound of a single soprano from that of three in unison tells its own story about the hearer's competence to judge the competence of others.
Charles Francis wrote (May 4, 2004):
[To Gabriel Jackson] Indeed it would! Likewise, an inability to distinguish a valid inference from a fallacious inference (drawing a conclusion from a negative) tells its own story about ones competence to judge the competence of others.
But, I'm afraid your posting (and therefore my reply) is in violation of "Guideline A". Likewise, your post is apparently in violation of "Guideline F" and "Guideline E". Moreover, I am now perhaps in violation of Guideline I, but hopefully since the subject is marked "OT", this can be overlooked. But lest I be accused of ignoring "Guideline G", please do not interpret my remarks in any way as a recommendation for correct behaviour on this group; rather take my remarks as a clarification of my own unwillingness to respond to your question in the terms you might have expected.
Missae Breves & Sanctus BWV 233-242
: Details
Complete Recordings | Recordings of Individual Movements | General Discussions
Systematic Discussions: BWV 233 | BWV 234 | BWV 235 | BWV 236 | BWV 233-236 | BWV 237-242
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Last update: ýMay 20, 2004 ý19:16:58
