Cantata BWV 53 - Discussions

Cantata BWV 53 Schlage doch, gewünschte Stunde Discussions
Cantata BWV 53 (Pseudo-Bach)
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (January 22, 2001): The only cantata I have multiple recordings of is not by Bach "any more". Nevertheless, it is of much interest to all Bach lovers. I often listen to the seven recordings I have managed to find of "Pseudo-Bach" Cantata BWV 53 "Schlage doch gewünschte Stunde", a solo cantata for alto. I began with the first interpretation I ever heard of this and most likely still the most beautifully sung, as I perceive it, that of Hilde Rössl-Majdan with Scherchen conducting [4]. It is funny how, in general, our tastes don't change that much. I had much the same reaction today to all the recordings as last time I ran through them some few years ago. [6] Next I listened to the Helen Watts recording with Thurston Dart conducting. I found her interpretation to be a child-like and naive reading of the text. By this I mean that it struck me as though she were singing one of those Mahler Symphony texts with those enigmatic and intentionally naive views of the heavenly life. This doesn't accord with my response to Bach. I listened to some of the other Bach items on this LP to check my response and this was the same response I had to her singing also of the aria "Erbarme dich, mein Gott" from the Matthäus Passion (BWV 248) as well as to the fragment from Cantata BWV 200 "Bekennen will ich seinen Namen". Dart was a renowned authentic interpreter of Bach style in his day. These are all, of course, about 40 year old recordings. [7] Third I played the old MHS re-release of the Erato Fritz Werner series of Bach cantatas on which the alto was Claudia Hellmann whom (1) I don't know from Eve and (2) came to with no preconceptions as I don't recall the last time I listened to this. Her recording really seemed to have the requisite heft and right type of seriousness and was very successful for me. I often don't like the interpretations on this at one time prominent set of Bach cantatas. [8] Fourth I put on the Maureen Forrester reading with Antonio Janigro who made Zagreb famous before the relatively recent tragic events. I find Forrester in Bach totally not to my taste. I simply don't respond to certain oddities of the voice and lack the terminology and musicological understanding to specify better. It is not appealing to me. [5] Fifth is someone I never would have picked up, if not for the fact that it was yet another reading of the BWV 53. This is one Herta Glaz (Mezzo-Soprano of the Metropolitan Opera Company) on a MGM LP (with another Bach cantata and with the Pergelosi "Salve Regina", with the Guilet String Quartet). This was a totally appealing and lovely reading. [11] For sixth I turned to a CD cheapo re-issue. This is Shirley Love with the Amor Artis Baroque under Johannes Somary. This was the most unsatisfactory performance. I have been to various Somary Oratorio performances and own many of his Händel oratorios and have replaced them all. He was a devoted conductor of this repertoire at a time when much better groups were coming on the scene. Ms. Love was really nothing to rejoice in. [13] And, in a perverse, but knowing manner, I kept for last the one that I acquired last and which alone came out only on CD, the one that is musicologically and Bach-wise the most representative of the Bach style, that of Ensemble 415 with counter-tenor René Jacobs. Now here we have an interpretation that fits both needs. It is authentic in today's terms (not as the term was understood 30-40 years ago) and it was beautifully sung and very satisfactory in every possible way. Alas, when I came to the only possible competition, the alto cantatas as done by Andreas Scholl with Philippe Herreweghe, BWV 53 is already excluded as not being by Bach. Too bad. It would have been very nice to compare and Bach indeed did copy and did appreciate this delicious cantata. The speculation as to by whom it is ranges and is not that relevant here. Or maybe it is. So, to respond to myself: Is one to prefer the "authentic" to the great singers who did Bach? Well, obviously Bach is big enough for both and we probably want to have both. For me Rössl-Majdan's [4] only competition is Jacobs [13].
Johan van Veen wrote (January 24, 2001): [To Yoël L. Arbeitman] [10] There is another fine recording by the late Henri Ledroit with the Ricercar Consort (Ricercar RIC 20 002).

Cantata BWV 53
Ludwig wrote (January 1, 2002): [To Aryeh Oron] Thank you and a happy New Year to you. I am wondering if anyone knows if there is a recording of the Cantata "Slage doch----" which uses real bells (these would weigh several tons) or a Carillon at the bass pitches which Bach asks for??? The places where such bells are available are few. If so: would appreciate knowing about these and the labels. There is no real substitute for these sounds as Wagner's Parsifal and Mahler's Symphonies have taught us.
Aryeh Oron wrote (January 5, 2002): [To Ludwig] Cantata BWV 53 'Schlage doch, gewunschte Stunde' was not composed by J.S. Bach but by M. Hoffmann. A list of its recordings appears in the following page of the Bach Cantatas Website: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV53.htm Although it was not composed by Bach, this is still a charming piece of music. Since I do not have all the recordings of this cantata, I am not sure if there is a recording which uses real bells.
Thomas Braatz wrote (January 6, 2002): Regarding real bells and BWV 53: if my memory does not fail my completely here, I remember hearing real bells (a single, small bell such as a percussion section might have, with the single note being struck repeatedly) on an LP recording that I heard in the late fifties and never again after that time. This is the recording that Yoël L Arbeitman owns and discussed: Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (January 22, 2001): < The only cantata I have multiple recordings of is not by Bach "any more". Nevertheless, it is of much interest to all Bach lovers. I often listen to the seven recordings I have managed to find of "Pseudo-Bach" Cantata BWV 53 "Schlage doch gewünschte Stunde", a solo cantata for alto. I began with the first interpretation I ever heard of this and most likely still the most beautifully sung, as I perceive it, that of Hilde Rössl-Majdan with Scherchen conducting [4]. It is funny how, in general, our tastes don't change that much. I had much the same reaction today to all the recordings as last time I ran through them some few years ago. > Perhaps Yoël can tell us, if this is done in one of the mvts. of this recording of the cantata.
Riccardo Nughes wrote (January 6, 2002): [To Aryeh Oron] There is a new recording of BWV 53/Melchior Hoffman's "Schlage doch, gewunschte Stunde": [19] Carlos Mena, CT Ricercar Consort Philippe Pierlot, conductor TT : 5'17" Mirare records MIR9911 Recorded in november 2000. http://www.abeillemusique.com/produit.php?cle=5760
Ludwig wrote (January 6, 2002): [To Riccardo Nuges] Thank you. Would you happen to know what proof there is that Bach did not write this and that Hoffman "borrowed" phrases from Bach--based on the excerpts I have heard. Would you also happen to know if this recording uses real church bells in it??
Ludwig wrote (January 6, 2002): [To Thomas Braatz] The score which is mentioned in a classic Orchestration text by Forsyth and according to Forsyth calls for two deep toned bells. Irregarless of whether or Bach wrote it; it is a very important work from the point of Orchestration. It is the only work along with one by Handel that calls for genuine bells with Orchestra and voices. The bells called for would weigh in the neighborhood of 20,000 lbs or more. Now where such bells existed in Bach's neighborhood when he was living can not be determined be cause Napoleon and others after him requisitioned bells and made them into Cannon and guns. The Nazi's did the same thing during WWII and the Kaiser also did during WWI. Russia use to be a place of great bells that is until Napoleon and Hitler came there.
Ludwig wrote (January 6, 2002): [To Aryeh Oron] Among my many musical talents is that I am a Carillonneur. You would be surprized how many fake bell sounds are out in the world trying to pass as real tuned bronze bells. It does not take a rocket scientist to know the difference because the sounds of real bells is not easily duplicated by tubular chimes,electronics or other cheap substitutes. Real musical bells are made of Bronze and thus tend to be expensive. When a real bell sounds it sounds more than one note---in fact a chorus of them. The tuner puts the newly cast bell on a lathe and voices the bell so that it's tuned fundamental note is the loudest while the other notes act like the Mixture Stop of an Organ. Thus when you hear a bell; you have the illusion of hearing only one note but if you listen carefully you will hear all the others also. There are curently are few places in the world that have bells the size which Bach/Hoffman wrote for. Big Ben in London is just a few notes above and in fact one octave above the lowest note of what Bach/Hoffman asks for in this work. Some of the places that have bells this size and weight are Riverside Church in New York; Bloomfield Hills in Michigan, The Kremlin in Moscow; and possibly St. Paschal's in Spain (which has the worlds largest rollover bell (i.e. it can rotate 360 degrees).

BWV 53 and those who leave out doubtful mate
Thomas Braatz wrote (January 26, 2002): Ludwig wrote: < Now if Bach wrote this or not the case for it is that there is an autograph copy. In the case of BWV 53; there was an original autograph of JS Bach. If one listens carefully---if even sounds like Bach at least to a certain extent. Could it be that Bach wrote some of this music and added Hoffmans music to it or is it that Hoffman copied Bach's score and added something of his own. Or maybe Bach sketched things out roughly and then had Hoffman fill in the details for him? > Alfred Dürr is mainly responsible for removing BWV 53 from the list of Bach's cantatas. The evidence is contained in books that I do not have access to: Dürr, Alfred "Studien über die frühen Kantaten J.S.Bachs, Leipzig, 1951, 1977, [Vol. 2, p. 58] and the Bach Jahrbuch 1955 [p. 15, note 9]. I have nothing to indicate that this work is in Bach's handwriting. In all probability this work is by Georg Melchior Hoffmann. BWV 53 is not a genuine, original work by J.S. Bach. Spitta, in the late 19^th century, states that it is obvious that this work was not to be performed in a church since it is much too short for a church service and for a funeral the words are not suitable. And you can be assured that Bach "eine wirkliche Campanella in der Kirche doch nicht hätte mitwirken lassen" ["would not have allowed a real campanile to play along in the church."] He would not have had objections if this piece were played in a home situation. Schweitzer, very early 20^th century, says that "strictly speaking it is not a cantata, but a "mourning aria," as it is called on the title page of the old manuscript in which it has come down to us. As Bach employs two bells in this work, Forkel thinks that "it does not belong to the period of his [Bach's] purified taste." Voigt, also very early 20^th century, indicates that this piece was frequently performed in the 19^th century. He thinks it must have been an extremely early work of Bach's. There was no way to date the manuscript. The manner in which the desire for death is expressed is not the way one usually finds it expressed in other works by the master. Voigt suggests numerous cuts that can be made to shorten the aria. A difficult problem for the conductor is how to perform the "Campanella" which has two notes, 'b' and 'c' that are notated in the bass clef. "Mir ist unbekannt, ob eine Hypothese darüber vorliegt, was für ein Instrument der Komponist sich dabei gedacht haben mag. (Sollten zufällig zwei kleinere Kirchenglocken in dieser Stimmung vorhanden gewesen und mit einem leichten Hammer angeschlagen sein? Oder besaß eine in Betracht kommende Orgel ein Campanella-Register?)" ["I have no idea whether a hypothesis has been given, as to what kind of instrument the composer might have had in mind. (Is it possible that there just happened to be two small church bells with these pitches, bells that could be struck with a light hammer? Or did the organ chosen for the performance have a campanella stop?"] Then Voigt suggests, for a modern performance, the cylindrical steel 'bells' used in orchestras, or glasses filled with water to different pitches. As a last resort a horn can be used as a replacement.

Cantata 53
Hiroluwian wrote (February 6, 2002): Last year I posted here about the 7 recording of Pseudo-Bach cantata BWV 53 I have and was informed that there were 3 others that I did not have. It remains a sublime piece of music although usually excluded more recently. I was surprised tonight to run across a listing on the Bongiovanni70.com site listing it as by G.M. Hoffmann. Yes, I know that it is ascribed to various beings, but I have never seen it listed as by another. JOHANN SEBASTIAN BACH Tilge, Höchster, Meine Sünden G. M. HOFFMANN: Schlage Doch, Gewünschte Stunde G. B. PERGOLESI: Salve Regina in la minore Kathleen Cassello, Gloria Banditelli Orchestra Filarmonica Marchigiana FABIO MAESTRI GB 2113-2

Info needed re Ledroit's Cantata #53 recording
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (April 15, 2004): I have a very simple problem amidst a lot of joy. Cantata BWV 53 (no longer by Bach and mostly ascribed to G.M. Hoffmann currently) stills smells as sweet to me as ever. Some many years ago Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (January 22, 2001): [various things about his = my collection of LP recordings of this work] http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonBach.htm scroll to bottom. The sum of the matter is that, although I still have these LPs, I no longer play LPs. I haven't for some years now.I am not capable at this point of transferring them either. Rössl-Majdan's has always been my reference point for any Bach singing and for any Mahler singing for that matter. That is the joyous part. I have just noticed the reprint of the Scherchen/R-M solo contralto cantatas on the Archipel label at one obscure USA dealer and at JPC.co.uk. I ordered this item and Scherchen's BWV 198 (a performance I really never liked, but that's another matter) [4]. Last night I went reading on Aryeh's site concerning this cantata and found the recommendations for the recording of Henri Ledroit [10] the lamented: Johan van Veen wrote (January 24, 2001): (To Yoël L. Arbeitman) (53-9) "There is another fine recording by the late Henri Ledroit with the Ricercar Consort (Ricercar RIC 20 002) [10]". Some years earlier (before I was on the list) Steven Langley Guy wrote (October 27, 1999): "The French Counter-tenor Henri Ledroit has made a very attractive recording of BWV 53 on the Ricercar label [10]". Back then his name meant nothing to me. I have recently become very interested in this counter-tenor. It seems that the only place that has the 2-CD set with Henri Ledroit [10] and also with other cantatas by Van Egmont is JPC. The postage from there to the USA is almost the same as the cost of the set. The set sells for c. 20 Euros and the postage is c. 15 Euros. Simple question: Does anyone know of another source for this set? Finally, my current favorite recording is that of Gerard Lesne on that magnificent Astree CD of the Bachs including Hoffmann [21].
Aryeh Oron wrote (April 15, 2004): [To Yoël L. Arbeitman] Good to see you writing again to the BCML. Hope to see you writing more often. This 2-CD was re-issued a short while ago [10]. The package of this reissue by Ricercar label is beautiful indeed. I am not sure that the content is identical with the original issue. You can see a picture of it at the pages of Cantatas BWV 53 & BWV 54. Nevertheless, it included moving performances of Henri Ledroit of both Cantatas BWV 53 (non-Bach) and BWV 54 (genuine J.S Bach). I prefer him to Lesne [21], whom you hold in high esteem. I purchased the album in Israel couple of months ago. We are lucky here to have many of the small labels, which are imported on more or less a regular basis. Back to Ledroit, IMO it is worth the price. I understand that it is quite expansive for you considering the shipment. But I am not sure how long it will stay in the catalogue. My recommendation is purchasing it as long as it is available. I believe that you will not regret it.
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (April 15, 2004): Aryeh Oron wrote: < I purchased the album in Israel couple of months ago. We are lucky here to have many of the small labels, which are imported on more or less a regular basis. > Perhaps, Aryeh, it would be cheaper to order from a source in Israel:-). I shall order it bc. there are things one needs and that's that. Let food worry about itself and rent too.

Schlage doch
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (May 11, 2004): Those interested in Cantata 53 will find interesting files at: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GMHof/ Unfortunately my recordings of Hellmann/Werner [7], Watts/Dart [6], and Glatz/Solomon are on LPs and I cannot digitize them. The #53 Monster Der Bach singt voller Wohllaut durch das Dunkel.

*�Schlage doch� again*
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (June 10, 2004): Great collection of Cantata BWV 53 recordings at: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GMHof/
File Name	Name	Size	Creator	Created
[8] Forrester, Maureen - 01 - Track 1.mp3	Maureen Forrester 1964 Janigro	2205 KB	ascagne_ascanio	05/10/2004
[19] Hoffmann-Carlos Mena -.mp3	Carlos Mena, Ricercar Consort, P.Pierlot (2000)	1241 KB	erre_enne	05/15/2004
[20] Hoffmann-Laurens.mp3	G.Laurens, I Barocchisti, D.Fasolis, Schlage doch (2000)	1744 KB	erre_enne	05/15/2004
[13] Jacobs, René - 13 - Track 13.mp3	René Jacobs 1987 Ensemble 415	1900 KB	ascagne_ascanio	05/10/2004
[16] Kowalski, Jochen - 11 - Track 11.mp3	Jochen Kowalski 1993 Sillito	1338 KB	ascagne_ascanio	05/10/2004
[10] Ledroit, Henri - 11 - Track 11.mp3	Henri Ledroit 1983 Ricercar Consort	1417 KB	ascagne_ascanio	05/10/2004
[1] Leisner, Emmi - 02 - Track 2.mp3	Emmi Leisner 1926	1112 KB	ascagne_ascanio	05/10/2004
[11] Love, Shirley - 03 - Track 3.mp3	Shirley Love 1984-86 Somary	1824 KB	ascagne_ascanio	05/11/2004
[21] Lésne, Gerard - 07 - Track 7.mp3	Gérard Lesne	1369 KB	ascagne_ascanio	05/10/2004
[17] Robin Blaze - 13 - Track 13.mp3	Blaze Parley of Instruments 1998	1384 KB	ascagne_ascanio	06/09/2004
[4] Roessl-Majdan, Hilde - 09 - Track 9.mp3	Hilde Rössl
As you see, most current ones are by counter-tenors. The three I have on LPs, but have not appeared on CDs are: Helen Watts [6], Herta Glaz [5] (that is a rarity), and Claudia Hellmann [7].

BWV 53
Charlie Richards wrote (July 28, 2004): I know this list primarily discusses those works of Bach which are considered authentic, but I was wondering if anyone here had any thoughts on the apocryphal cantata formerly catalogued as BWV 53 ("Schlage Doch"), but now attributed to Melchior Hoffmann? I fell in love with this cantata when I first heard the Maureen Forrester recording on LP [8] many years ago (recently re-issued on CD on the "Amadeus" label - still unsurpassed, in my opinion). At that time I had no reason to doubt that it was not an authentic Bach cantata. However, upon repeated hearings, and after listening to other Bach cantatas, it began to seem like an "odd man out" to me in many ways. It is hard for me now to understand why this cantata was ever considered to be an authentic part of the Bach canon. Both structurally and harmonically it seems to belong in an entirely different sound world; not even BWV 4, which has a particularly antiquated structure (resembling, I think, in its construction, more a cantata by Schütz or Buxtehude than that of the later Bach) seems as different from what we normally think of as a "classic" Bach cantata than BWV 53. So, some questions: when was the cantata's authenticity first questioned? And how was its attribution to Hoffmann determined? Also, for those who are familiar with it, which recordings do you prefer? As stated above, I love the Forrester recording [8], but the recent recordings by Lesne [21] and Mena [19] (both of which use the Hoffmann attribution) are growing on me. I have a particular aversion to Jacobs' recording on Harmonia Mundi [13] (which attributes it to Bach, on a recital of "Bach Cantatas for Alto") which I find almost unbearable (although I have heard other recordings by Jacobs I HAVE liked, in general I prefer him in his role as conductor than as singer). I'm looking forward to reading any comments others on this list may have on this cantata, especially those of musicians or music students (I fall into neither category) who may be able to analyze this cantata better than I can.
Aryeh Oron wrote (July 28, 2004): [To Charlie Richards] The following page of the Bach Cantatas Website lists all the known recordings of Cantata BWV 53: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV53.htm Yoel Arbeitman, a member of the BCML, created a special website 'Cantata Schlage doch' dedicated to recording of this charming work: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GMHof/ If you want to listen to the music examples, you must subscribe to this group.
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (July 29, 2004): [To Aryeh Oron] Why am I not surprised?????? Three persons joined that group today and that has never happened before. We need members. Thanks, Aryeh, for the advertising. I have recently also become fascinated-- as a byproduct of the Schlage doch recordings I have been collecting-- with the two great cantatas of Johann Christoph Bach "Wie bist du denn, o Gott, im Zorn auf mich entbrannt?" and "Ach, dass ich Wassers g'nug haette". These are amazing works.

The bells
Bradley Lehman wrote (July 28, 2004): Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote: < Of course discussion is always welcome. > Anybody have info about the possibuse of regular church steeple bells around the original performances? Or, perhaps, a set of handbells (handbell-choir type)? Or a couple of specially-constructed bells, either for this particular piece or some occasion around its composition? That seems more plausible than rolling in a rack of orchestral tubular bells....

BWV 53 bells
Continue of dicsussion from: Cantata BWV 54 - Discussions
Doug Cowling wrote (October 13, 2004): Going back one BWV number, I have a couple of questions about BWV 53, "Schlage Doch" which alas is not by Bach but Hoffman ... still an exquisite one-movement cantata. The work calls for a bell -- the text refers to death's hour striking -- and I am curious about the "campanella" which was probably a bell stop on a Baroque organ (there were all manner of exotic theatrical ranks on some organs). The superb old Helen Watts recording [6] uses an orchestral chime whereas Rene Jacobs lovely performance [13] use a tiny chime like a small clock. So is the "striking of the awaited hour" a tolling church bell or a chime on the mantelpiece? I doubt Watts' contralto [6] or Jacobs' countertenor [13] is the sound that Hoffman wanted. Anyone know of a recording sung by a boy soloist? The old Harnoncourt recordings used these chesty teenagers quite a bit, but counter-tenors seem to be the norm these days.
Bradley Lehman wrote (October 13, 2004): [To Doug Cowling] There's (surprisingly!) a whole Yahoo group about that piece: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GMHof/messages ...which is mostly a place to download other recordings of it.... I'd asked a similar question there in July about the bells, but nobody followed it up: "Anybody have info about the possible use of regular church steeple bells around the original performances? Or, perhaps, a set of handbells (handbell-choir type)? Or a couple of specially-constructed bells, either for this particular piece or some occasion around its composition? "That seems more plausible than rolling in a rack of orchestral tubular bells...." The recording of that that I currently like best is Ledroit's, with the Ricercar Consort [10], including some medium-sized bells with a long ring time.
Doug Cowling wrote (October 13, 2004): Bradley Lehman wrote: "Anybody have info about the possible use of regular church steeple bells around the original performances? Or, perhaps, a set of handbells (handbell-choir type)? Or a couple of specially-constructed bells, either for this particular piece or some occasion around its composition? "That seems more plausible than rolling in a rack of orchestral tubular bells...." The organ probably had a set of bells which could be played from a keyboard. I'm not sure if the Leipzig organs had this bit of exotica. Is the copy of the cantata in Bach's handwriting?
Ludwig wrote (October 13, 2004): [To Bradley Lehman] First of all I have researched this Cantata rather throughly as both a Conductor,Organist and Carillonneur. First of all; this is not a Cantata by JS Bach but has long been attributed to him. Some scholars say that one of Bach's cousins or Uncles wrote this work. From the score only ---one would assume that this required a Bourdon Bell(the largest bell in a Carillon or a Bass sounding Bell) weighting some 20 to 40 tons and as far as is known such Bells were not in Germany during either Bach's lifetime and the technology in Bach's lifetime for casting them existed only in Japan, Burma and China Russia, (where the Worlds largest unrung Bell (the 200 ton Bourdon named the Tzar Kolokol I--cast in 1654) rests in the Kremlin where it fell when the timbers upon which it was hung burned). Please note the phrase <as far as known>:Bells before Napolean were regarded as sacred objects both Napoleon and Hitler developed the habit of robbing Church and Municipal Towers of their bells and melting them down to form guns and cannon). Often no detailed records were kept of bells removed. Music for Bells was often written from the 12^th century to the 19^th century as for transposing instruments but today it is written as sounds in the key of C or transposed up or down in Octaves from the notation as written and this is the clue to what was intended in this Cantata as the Church where this Cantata was written did not have any Huge Bells of many tons hanging in it's tower. When one examines the Organ and the Church Records --one finds that the Congregation requested that a number of Bells (read cymbelstern type of Bicycle bell) be installed when the Organ was being renovated. This was done and these bells were connected to the botton part of the Organ Keyboard so the sounds called for are at least 2 to 3 octaves higher. However, I have often wondered what the effect would be with real live Carillon Bells playing this just as Wagner imagined such Bells in Tannhauser but never realized until John D. Rockefellow built Riverside Church in New York with the Laura Spillman Carillon. The so-call theatrical stops on Organs of Bach's day is an Southern German ideology and led to the developement of the Wurlitzer theatre Organ of the 1920s. North German Organs rarely had such stops. Bach's In duli jubilo organ piece is often played with great satifaction with the cymbelstern or similar bells. Please let us not discuss Tubular bells which are at best a very poor imitation or real Carillon Bells and do not even sound like real bells to the educated ear. BWV 53 has never been performed , as far as is known, with real bells (other than bicycle type) and most recordings either omit them or use the bicycle type. However, as this is a funeral Cantata they are essentail to the piece. Now if there are real bells used in some recording out there that I may not know about please let me know so I can acquire a copy.
Thomas Braatz wrote (October 14, 2004): Doug Cowling wrote: >>The organ probably had a set of bells which could be played from a keyboard. I'm not sure if the Leipzig organs had this bit of exotica. Is the copy of the cantata in Bach's handwriting?<< As far as I can tell, there were no bell (Glockenspiel) stops on the Leipzig organs in Bach's time. I had written part of this before William Rowland's excellent summary on bells, but I am sending this mainly for the excellent biography of the supposed composer of BWV 53. BWV 53 "Schlage doch, gewünschte Stunde" is not by Bach, but possibly by M. Hoffmann (There is a Martin Hoffmann who lived from Aug. 28, 1654 to April 15, 1719 in Leipzig) In the extensive Hoffmann family beginning with Veit Hoffmann (died in May 1673 in Leipzig), a family that had friendly ties with or were even related to J. S. Bach's family, and members of which included musicians and were also well known as instrument makers (violins, lutes, etc.,) there is even mention of 'bell-makers' ('Glockengießer') among them. The MGG [Bärenreiter, 1986] had listed BWV 53 this way: >>Schlage doch, gewünschte Stunde. Dichtung unbekannter Herkunft, möglicherweise S. Franck. Einzelne Arie (aus einer Kantate?). Um 1730? Autorschaft Bachs höchst unwahrscheinlich. Partitur in Abschrift.<< [Librettist unknown, possibly by S. Franck, a single aria (from a cantata?) Around 1730? Extremely unlikely to be by J. S. Bach. The score is a copied manuscript.] Then, since the 'M.' of 'M. Hoffmann' is not fully identified, there is also the following report by Andreas Glöckner ['Glöckner',BTW, means 'bell-ringer' in German] in the Grove Music Online [Oxford University Press, 2004] on Melchior Hoffmann, who might be an even more likely prospect [Christoph Wolff, in the same GMO, still has BWV 53 as spurious with 'Franck?' for the text, the occasion of the 1^st performance a funeral, and the music by '?M.Hoffmann']: Melchior Hoffmann (born in Bärenstein, near Dresden, c. 1679; died in Leipzig, 6 Oct 1715). German composer and organist. As a choirboy in the Dresden Hofkapelle, Hoffmann received his musical training from Johann Christoph Schmidt. He went to Leipzig in autumn 1702 and enrolled at the university to study law. He also joined the student collegium musicum founded by Telemann. When Telemann left Leipzig in June 1705, Hoffmann succeeded him as organist and music director of the Neukirche, and took over as director of Telemann's collegium musicum. He was also conductor of the Leipzig civic opera, which had been in existence since 1693 and for which he wrote a number of works. In 1709 he met the violin virtuoso Johann Georg Pisendel, who became leader of the orchestra of Hoffmann's collegium. At this time the ensemble consisted of 50 to 60 musicians and had won fame and recognition beyond the Leipzig area. [Note the size of this ensemble!!!] Hoffmann seems to have visited England between 1709 and 1710, but no details are known. There is no definite evidence of a visit to Italy in 1714 either, and it is unlikely that he went there. In 1713 he applied, along with J.S. Bach and three other candidates, to succeed F.W. Zachow as organist at the Liebfrauenkirche in Halle. When Bach eventually declined the appointment on 19 March 1714 the Halle consistory offered it to Hoffmann, but although he officially accepted the post he never took up his duties in Halle, and in fact resigned on 23 July. On 9 September 1714 he married Margaretha Elisabeth Philipp and in the same month became one of the few Leipzig musicians of the time to be granted citizenship. He had been suffering from a serious illness since 1713 and died on the evening of 6 October 1715, aged only 36. He was buried in the Johannisfriedhof in Leipzig on 10 October; all the pupils of the Thomasschule attended the funeral. Hoffmann died a prosperous citizen, regarded by his contemporaries as an important composer and a sensitive musician. The Leipzig chronicler Christoph Ernst Sicul described him in an obituary as 'a famous composer', whose collegium musicum had produced many fine musicians holding prominent positions as organists or in the Kapellen of major German courts. Gottfried Heinrich Stölzel, a member of Hoffmann's collegium from 1707 to 1710, and the Darmstadt court poet Georg Christian Lehms also paid tribute to Hoffmann's great importance in their writings, and Charles Burney regarded him as one of the finest composers of the first half of the 18th century. In spite of his early death Hoffmann left a quite extensive body of work, although only a fraction of it has survived. Very little from his secular output, and in particular from his operas, is extant, and his music only began to attract attention from musicologists when three works previously attributed to Bach (BWV 53, BWV 189 and Anh.21) were recognized as being by Hoffmann (or, in the case of BWV 53, probably by him). In older studies Hoffmann has often been confused with the Breslau composer Johann Georg Hoffmann. Melchior Hoffmann's music shows a feeling for unusual and effective orchestration. His cantata and opera arias are notable for their pleasant, attractive and accessible melodies, sometimes with a strong emotional emphasis, as in the cantata Meine Seele rühmt und preist. His later compositions show Italian influence. WORKS sacred vocal Missa (e), B, vn/fl, bc, D-Bsb (partly autograph), later version (a), S/T, va, bc, Bsb; Sanctus (a), SATB, str, bc, 1708, Bsb; Sanctus (C), SATB, 3 tpt, timp, str, bc, Bsb; Sanctus (D), SATB, 3 tpt, timp, 2 ob, str, bc, Bsb; Mag (d), SATB, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, 1700, Bsb* Cantatas: Entfernet euch, ihr schmeichlenden Gedanken, S/T, 2 hn, 2 ob, str, bc, Dl; Lob sei dem allerhöchsten Gott, SATB, 2 tpt, str, bc, B-Bc; Meine Seele erhebt den Herrn, S, fl, str, bc, D-Bsb (partly autograph), RUS-SPsc; Meine Seele rühmt und preist, T, fl, ob, vn, bc, D-Bsb; Singet dem Herrn ein neues Lied, SATB, 2 tpt, timp, str, bc, 1708, Bsb, DK-Kk Doubtful: 3 missa brevis (C, C, G), D-Bsb; 4 cantatas, MÜG; Schlage doch, gewünschte Stunde (cantata), A, bells, str, bc, Bsb Lost: 32 cantatas, listed in Breitkopf catalogues, 1761 and 1764 operas performed in Leipzig; music lost except for some arias in D-SHs and S-L Acontius und Cydippe, 1709; Banise, oder Die dritte Abteilung dieser asiatischen Prinzessin, 1710; Balacin, oder Die erste Abteilung der asiatischen Banise, 1712; Chaumigrem, oder Die andere Abteilung der asiatischen Banise, 1712; Die amazonische Königin Orithya, 1713; Rhea Sylvia, 1714 other secular vocal Cantatas.: Auf, muntre Sinnen zum Jagen, T, str, bc; Ich lebe als im Schlafe, S, str, bc; Schönste Lippen, eure Liebe, S, ob, bc; Treue Liebe edler Seelen, S, str, bc; Verdopple, Tyranne, verdopple dein Rasen, S, ob, str, bc; Verfolge mich immer mit rasenden Stürmen, S, str, bc: all D-SHs Lost: 8 cants., listed in Breitkopf catalogue, 1761 instrumental Sinfonie (f), str, D-Dl, GB-Lbl; Conc. (E ), hn, 2 ob, str, D-Dl; Sonata (g), ob, vn, bc, Dl Lost: 5 sinfonie (D, D, F, A, B ), str, bc, listed in Breitkopf catalogue, 1762 BIBLIOGRAPHY Mattheson GEP, 117-19 A. Schering: Musikgeschichte Leipzigs, ii: Von 1650 bis 1723 (Leipzig, 1926), 341-4, 462-3 A. Dürr: 'Zur Echtheit der Kantate "Meine Seele rühmt und preist"', BJb 1956, 155 only A. Glöckner: 'Die Leipziger Neukirchenmusik und das "Kleine Magnificat" bwv Anh.21', BJb 1982, 97-102 A. Glöckner: 'Neukirchenmusik unter der Direktion von Melchior Hoffmann (1705-1715)', Die Musikpflege an der Leipziger Neukirche zur Zeit Johann Sebastian Bachs (Leipzig, 1990), 39-76 ANDREAS GLÖCKNER � Oxford University Press 2004 Submitted by Thomas Braatz
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (October 14, 2004): Bradley Lehman wrote: < There's (surprisingly!) a whole Yahoo group about that piece: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GMHof/messages ...which is mostly a place to download other recordings of it.... > Not surprising at all in that even with a 56K connection I uploaded all the recordings I have on CD (I am not sophisticated enough to upload the few I have on LP only). Then Riccardo (erre_enne) uploaded two others of which I was not aware. Today a similar question was raised on the list devoted to this cantata. < The recording of that that I currently like best is Ledroit's, with the Ricercar Consort [10], including some medium-sized bells with a long ring time. > The reason you prefer this recording is the bells rather then the voice? I am a great admirer of the late Henri Ledroit [10] but I still prefer Gérard Lesne in this cantata [21] amongst the counter-tenors. In response to another post, I know of no boy singing this on records. Whether there is a private recording with a boy is always possible.
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (October 14, 2004): Thomas Braatz wrote: < I had written part of this before William Rowland's excellent summary on bells, but I am sending this mainly for the excellent biography of the supposed composer of BWV 53. > And deeply appreciated it is. Are any of the mentioned works recorded?
Bradley Lehman wrote (October 14, 2004): << The recording of that that I currently like best is Ledroit's, with the Ricercar Consort [10], including some medium-sized bells with a long ring time. >> < The reason you prefer this recording is the bells rather then the voice? I am a great admirer of the late Henri Ledroit [10] but I still prefer Gérard Lesne in this cantata [21] amongst the counter-tenors. In response to another post, I know of no boy singing this on records. Whether there is a private recording with a boy is always possible. > In general, I listen more closely to the orchestra (and especially the phrasing of the bass line, and its impact on the whole) than to solo singers, unless the singer is either outstandingly riveting or outstandingly awful. The Ricercar Consort plays in a very involved and graceful way here--and in the 54 on the same disc, too: I like that sense of a struggle against heaviness of sin in the 54 first movement (right along with the meaning of the text). Yeah, Ledroit's German has some problems, notably the missing of final consonants on words...but I like his sound anyway. And he's not too distracting away from the great stuff happening in the orchestra.
Bradley Lehman wrote (October 14, 2004): Ludwig wrote: < BWV 53 has never been performed , as far as is known, with real bells (other than bicycle type) and most recordings either omit them or use the bicycle type. However, as this is a funeral Cantata they are essentail to the piece. Now if there are real bells used in some recording out there that I may not know about please let me know so I can acquire a copy. > Well, go listen to the 11 recordings at: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GMHof/files/ and see what you think about the different types of bells represented there. I was listening tonight to the recent "Wolcom Yole" Christmas album by Anonymous 4 and Andrew Lawrence-King: and in light of today's discussion of bells, and listening to ALK there, it seemed to me that a harp would make a nice substitution if bells aren't available.
Ludwig wrote (October 14, 2004): [To Bradley Lehman] The harp's upper range does have suggestive bell like tones but it is not the same and the same is true of the guitar. I know that you are at the University of Michigan so there is no reason for you and other people there not to know what real bells sound like as the University has a Carillon. I do not mean this in a rude or impolite way but it is surprizing how many people confuse fake bell sounds or something approaching it with real bell sounds. If you will listen to these bells carefully, as I have(one of the better Carillons in the area), you will hear sounds that say "hey substitutes you just do not make the grade for real bells". Dr.Halstead, who use to be the University Carillonneur, is now at UC-Berkeley.
William Rowland (Ludwig) wrote (October 14, 2004): JS Bach and Bells We have no evidence that Bach ever used Bells other than perhaps what was traditional use at Christmas time of the Cymbelstern. However, in the Mühlhausen Organ, the congregation had requested that a set of bells be included in the revision of the Organ. Bach complied and in the documents about this Organ he specifies a set of bells of 4 foot pitch. In the past it has been inferred that what the congregation ordered was despised by the Organist. However this inference is not entirely logical. While in some instances this may be true we have such evidence that suggests that Bach would have made full use of the resources of this instrument. Again there is no evidence that Bach ever used these stops nor is there any evidence that he used others except in the rare cases where he prescribed registration (vide the Peters edition of the Complete Works for Organ) for some pieces. In the choral prelude--In dir ist Freude (In thee is gladness) BWV 615; we have a bass ostinato which is 17 times repeated ushering in the New Year with bell like motives. When this piece is registered with bright flue stops; a choral bass or other reed in the pedal to give a strong bass line and we add a quiet cymbel III rank along with 4 foot pitched bells (or cymbelstern) this work takes on a new meaning that is exciting that when played without the bells, mixture and choralbass or reed stop.
Doug Cowling wrote (October 14, 2004): Ludwig wrote: < We have no evidence that Bach ever used Bells other than perhaps what was traditional use at Christmas time of the Cymbelstern. > Is the manuscript of "Schlage Doch" in Bach's hand and is there any evidence that he performed it? On the Handel side of things, G.F. Used a keyboard carillon 'Acis & Galatea". He also had a hybrid keyboard instrument built which was both harpsichord and organ and engineered so that we could either or both when conducted oratorios -- and I assume operas.
Bradley Lehman wrote (October 14, 2004): Ludwig wrote: < I know that you are at the University of Michigan so there is no reason for you and other people there not to know what real bells sound like as the University has a Carillon. > I'm not there now, but for five years I lived in an apartment only a block and a half away from that carillon. I heard it almost every day (how could one not?), and I attended many of Dr Halstead's announced concerts (she'd tell me about them personally when she came into the library where I was working). A fan! And, the modern carillon repertoire is pretty interesting. She tried several times to get me to go sign up for carillon lessons myself, but I never got around to it: I figured I wouldn't use it later, and my schedule was already packed. Additionally, one of my harpsichord students was there at U-M primarily as a carillon student. Anyway.... < I do not mean this in a rude or impolite way but it is surprizing how many people confuse fake bell sounds or something approaching it with real bell sounds. If you will listen to these bells carefully, as I have(one of the better Carillons in the area), you will hear sounds that say "hey substitutes you just do not make the grade for real bells". Dr.Halstead, who use to be the University Carillonneur, is now at UC-Berkeley. > Yes, well, there are lots of types of "real bells" and they don't have to be as big or loud as carillon bells. I think fondly of a shop I know in central Ohio where they have a whole room full of imported Swiss bells, a big variety of pitches. I like to go in there and try them all; they're all slightly different, as you'd expect, even if they're the same size. These: http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=349&itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1 For more direct intentions of musical use, there are of course plenty of fine handbell manufacturers today.... I like singing bowls, too; my wife and I had one played during our wedding. This kind: http://www.bodhisattva.com/tibetan.htm Play around the rim for that eerie sustained effect, or strike them with a soft mallet.... In my first job as an organist, elsewhere before U of M, the organ I played had two octaves of keyboard-activated bells. Mediocre-sounding ones, to be sure, but real ones. (A single strike with a clapper activated by a solenoid.) I made up some pieces for church services where I'd solo out a chorale melody on the bells against accomp on the other manual and pedal; that's what such bells on such organs are designed to do. The congregation said they enjoyed it. They especially wanted to hear them around Christmastime. We didn't have a Cymbelstern, although I've played some other organs that did. Somewhere I have an LP of somebody playing Bach's C minor French Suite on a carillon.... I hate electronic fake bells.
Bradley Lehman wrote (October 14, 2004): JS Bach and Bells, and BWV 53 << We have no evidence that Bach ever used Bells other than perhaps what was traditional use at Christmas time of the Cymbelstern. >> How far back does the Glockenspiel go before Mozart's "Magic Flute"? (In that score it's merely instrumento d'acciacio, i.e. "steel instrument".) By "Glockenspiel" here I mean the one that has metal bars laid out like a xylophone's, and struck with mallets. ===== The current BWV (1998) puts BWV 53 into thpurgatory appendix of works of doubtful authenticity, and (as has already been discussed here) cites the most likely composer as Melchior Hoffmann. The research they give as reference is Glöckner's Die Musikpflege an der Leipziger Neukirche zur Zeit Johann Sebastian Bachs, Beiträge zur Bachforschung 8, Leipzig 1990, p55. Philipp Spitta, who didn't question Bach's authorship of the piece, gave us this: "I believe the style of Franck is to be detected in the text. It is self-evident that this aria cannot have been intended for church use, for there is no part of the service where it could have been introduced; it is too short for the regular church music, which had to last from twenty-five to thirty minutes, and the text is not suited for any extraordinary occasion of mourning. It may be regarded as certain that Bach, though as much inclined as ever to introduce a musical imitation of the sound of bells, would never have brought a real bell into the church to produce the effect, while in the family circle no one would have objected. [He then refers to the Bach-Gesellschaft's listing, and continues...] It is singular that this composition, which is so undoubtedly Bach's, has no original warranty for his name; in Breitkopf's list even there is no author's name. Forkel's opinion that the mention of the Campanella of itself proves it to belong to a period when Bach's taste was still imperfect is thus justified. Still, it is very certain that in its full and mature state it is not a youthful work." (p476 of the Bell and Fuller-Maitland translation) [I merely present Spitta's text here for information purposes and curiosity; no attempt to support its assertions.]
Thomas Braatz wrote (October 14, 2004): Doug Cowling wrote: >>Is the manuscript of "Schlage Doch" in Bach's hand and is there any evidence that he performed it?<< It is not in Bach's hand nor is there any evidence that he performed it. This is probably very similar to the history of the "Magnificat A-Moll" by Melchior Hoffmann (BWV Anh. 21.) This had been ascribed to Bach as a Bach autograph (the BG published it as such.) W. G. Whittaker rediscovered the missing score in 1940 and once again reaffirmed Bach's authorship, but a careful handwriting analysis by Alfred Dürr and Frederik Hudson in 1954 revealed that the score was in an unknown hand. Hans-Joachim Schulze, in 1968, declared on the basis of handwriting comparison that it was a Telemann autograph. Andreas Glöckner, in 1982, determined through comparison with other documents that this score was actually a Melchior Hoffmann autograph. Since BWV 53 has long been declared not to be by Bach, the NBA does not feel obligated to reveal details about the score as such, except that it is quite evident, that BWV 53, very likely by Melchior Hoffmann, was not in Bach's handwriting as all such scores by other composers copied by Bach are included in the NBA. If Bach had performed this cantata, he would most likely have made some corrections and additions that would have been evident and worthy of inclusion in the NBA.
Charles Francis wrote (October 15, 2004): Bradley Lehman wrote: < Yes, well, there are lots of types of "real bells" and they don't have to be as big or loud as carillon bells. I think fondly of a shop I know in central Ohio where they have a whole room full of imported Swiss bells, a big variety of pitches. I like to go in there and try them all; they're all slightly different, as you'd expect, even if they're the same size. > One of the charms of strolling through the Swiss alps in spring, summer or autumn, is encountering a herd cows, each wearing one of these bells. One can hear the jangling from a considerable distance - the presumed purpose being to allow the Milchmädchen to locate their animals. Church bells, are a different story, however. Grossly inferior to their English counterparts, several bells of indistinct pitch, having no particular harmonic relation to each other, are struck in a random manner. Worse, in my area, they do this in the early morning each Sunday, when God-fearing people are trying to sleep. Austrian and German church bells make a similar cacophony - the ancient art of Change Ringing having passed these countries by.
Ludwig wrote (October 15, 2004): [To Charles Francis] Mahler captured these sounds in his Symphonies and did it so well that before I knew anything about Mahler or where these symphonies were written---I got the full picture of a pastoral scene in Switzerland with Cows ringing their bells and Sheperds playing their alpine horns. You hit it right when you said that they were all not the same and neither the sounds are the same and that my friends is the one big difference between real bells and fake ones ---especially of the electronic variety with their sickening cloying tones.

Watts (was: BWV 083)
Continue of discussion from: Cantata BWV 83 - Discussions Part 2
Yoël L. Arbeitrman wrote (March 2, 2006): Ed Myskowski wrote: < I am glad that I did, if only for Helen Watts in BWV 83/1 (alto sanity?). > As far as I know Watts is only one of two altos whose recording of Pseudo-Bach cantata BWV 53 is not available on CD [6]. The other is Herta Glaz [5]. The rest of them may be found at: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GMHof/ except for Claudio Hellmann in the Werner set [7] which I have not gotten on CDs as I really only want no. 53. =================== Name Size Creator Created Actions [8] audio/ Forrester, Maureen - 01 - Track 1.mp3 Maureen Forrester 1964 Janigro 2205 KB ascagne_ascanio Added: May 10, 2004 [19] audio/ Hoffmann-Carlos Mena-.mp3 Carlos Mena, Ricercar Consort, P.Pierlot (2000) 1241 KB erre_enne Added: May 15, 2004 [20] audio/ Hoffmann-Laurens.mp3 G.Laurens, I Barocchisti, D.Fasolis, Schlage doch (2000) 1744 KB erre_enne Added: May 15, 2004 [13] audio/ Jacobs, René - 13 - Track 13.mp3 René Jacobs 1987 Ensemble 415 1900 KB ascagne_ascanio Added: May 11, 2004 [16] audio/ Kowalski, Jochen - 11 - Track 11.mp3 Jochen Kowalski 1993 Sillito 1338 KB ascagne_ascanio Added: May 11, 2004 [10] audio/ Ledroit, Henri - 11 - Track 11.mp3 Henri Ledroit 1983 Ricercar Consort 1417 KB ascagne_ascanio Added: May 10, 2004 [1] audio/ Leisner, Emmi - 02 - Track 2.mp3 Emmi Leisner 1926 1112 KB ascagne_ascanio Added: May 10, 2004 [11] audio/ Love, Shirley - 03 - Track 3.mp3 Shirley Love 1984-86 Somary 1824 KB ascagne_ascanio Added: May 11, 2004 audio/ Lésne, Gerard - 07 - Track 7.mp3 [21] Gérard Lesne 1369 KB ascagne_ascanio Added: May 10, 2004 [17] audio/ Robin Blaze - 13 - Track 13.mp3 Blaze Parley of Instruments 1998 1384 KB ascagne_ascanio Added: Jun 9, 2004 [4] audio/ Roessl-Majdan, Hilde - 09 - Track 9.mp3 Hilde Rössl-Majdan 1953 Scherchen 2303 KB ascagne_ascanio ================== This occasional post to GMHof@yahoogroups.com will serve a good purpose at all events.

Bells in BWV 53
Continue of discussion from: Altos in Bach's Vocal Works [General Topics]
Jeremy Vosburgh wrote (March 3, 2006): Majdan & Question I'm glad Yoel and Ed mentioned Hilde yesterday. She is one of the very few woman altos who has convincing sung sacred Bach in a period attempt imho (I know that seems like a contradiction in terms). I never warmed to Watts' interpretations although I greatly respect her technical ability and in general. That being said; I recently went on a rant about how I always prefer counter-tenors because of the greater apparent contrast in voices due to the same sex of all the singers. I must now make an exception for solo cantatas where this is not a factor. Especially with BWV 53 which is not even a Bach cantata and is very much an occasional piece. Another note: can someone tell me why with all the professional recordings of BWV 53 there is not one that uses real bells? To me this is a travesty! I don't know if any of you are pyromaniacs, but I imagine I get a similar feeling when I think about large bells! Lets all petition Suzuki to not skip BWV 53 and use real bells when he does. Can someone tell me once and for all: did bach use boy altos or late teen altos or full grown counter-tenors or some mixture? Somehow on this list, we seem to go on the subject again and again without actually nailing the truth down. Bach taught students in Leipzig. Isn't there a roll somewhere with the age and voice parts that everyone sung? How is it that we still don't seem to know today how many singers were present when the cantatas were sung. I seem to remember a description of one of his performances of the Matthew passion (BWV 244) which described the two choirs being greatly physically separated and the evangelist and Jesus being the only soloists who were separated from the choir. If we are able to have this great detail about one performance of Bach's, why don't we seem to agree on how many singers he had per part, etc.?
Douglas Cowling wrote (March 3, 2006): Bells in BWV 53 Jeremy Vosburgh wrote: < Another note: can someone tell me why with all the professional recordings of BWV 53 there is not one that uses real bells? To me this is a travesty! I don't know if any of you are pyromaniacs, but I imagine I get a similar feeling when I think about large bells! Lets all petition Suzuki to not skip BWV 53 and use real bells when he does. > "Schlage Doch" is one of my favourite pieces of Baroque music -- I've asked for it at my funeral! The "campanella" are a fascinating question. Some recordings use a modern orchestral chime which sounds appropriately like a tolling funeral bell. Jacobs [13] and others use a very small chime which sounds like a mantle clock. I was surprised by this at first but then realized that the staccato string figure is meant to symbolize the ticking of a clock. Hoffmann notates it on the B above middle C. I've never heard any speculation what the "campanella" division in the organ sounded like. I'll sign any petition to record this wonderful piece!
Ludwig wrote (March 3, 2006): [To Douglas Cowling] There are no known recordings of BWV 53 with real bells in them. There could be some private ones out there somewhere but no one has spoken up about them. This work is not by JS Bach but by his grandfather or cousin who had the same name. It was mistakenly attributed to JS Bach the later(the one everyone means when they say JS Bach) instead of the earlier Bach. I do not know where your recording is from but it must be a rare recording as BWV 53 is very hard generally to find in a recording. I had to comb public libraries just to hear it. Yes it is a very nice funeral work that could possibly be used in today's services. If we examine the Documents concerning the Organ for the Church that this work was composed to be presented in --there are explanations of the bells. The Congregation wanted bells playable from the Organ Console apparently. Personally, not only being an Organist but also a Carillonneur, I do not understand how that would be possible in Bach's day other than some smart sophisticated use of the physics of levers and cranks to have a finger move the clapper of a large bell even if struck from the outside. The reason being is from a tracker Organ the clapper of the bell weighing upwards of 500 lbs would be very hard to ring if it were in the tower from the Organ because of the weight of the clapper. Could you lift 100 lbs with your little finger?? If not then that is the problem here with the score and it's interpetation. The clapper could not be set in motion with the depression of a key. Today this would be very possible even if the bell weighed 20 tons and had a 10 ton clapper. If the church survived WWII and there is someone in Germany on this list who could enlightened us about if there were bells in the Church tower and how much did they weigh---they might solve the problem. Hitler and Napoleon, however, 'stole' bells from most churches in Germany and melted them down into cannon and items for warfare and as a result almost no original bells survive from the war periods since the days of Napoleon. The score calls for huge bourdons (these are the so-called bass bells and called such because they hum) which would weigh as much as 10 tons it we take the score literally. They could be nothing more than Zimbelstern type bells (so-called bicyle bells these days) or they might truly be real bells aka tower/church bells. I would assume that the bells were playable only from the bass keyboard if they were of the Zimbelstern type which is the cause of the confusion. Yes I also would like to hear this with big heavy bells. If you record it or know anyone who is please let the list know.
Thomas Braatz wrote (March 3, 2006): Ludwig wrote: >>This work [BWV 53 "Schlage doch, gewünschte Stunde" is not by JS Bach but by his grandfather or cousin who had the same name. It was mistakenly attributed to JS Bach the later(the one everyone means when they say JS Bach) instead of the earlier Bach.<< BWV 53 was composed by Georg Melchior Hoffmann. For more information about him, do a search for "Georg Melchior Hoffmann" or simply "Melchior Hoffmann" on the BCW (Aryeh Oron's Bach Cantata Website) [be sure to enclose the search string with quotation marks]. The Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis (BWV) of 1998 still has a question mark behind Hoffmann's name, but research in the meantime has confirmed Hoffmann's authorship. Another cantata, BWV 189 "Meine Seele rühmt und preist" is also without a doubt by Melchior Hoffmann and definitely not by J.S. Bach. The BGA incorrectly ascribed the Magnificat in A-minor or sometimes called the "Little Magnificat" to Bach (BWV Anh. 21). It also is a composition by Melchior Hoffmann.
Douglas Cowling wrote (March 3, 2006): Thomas Braatz wrote: < The BGA incorrectly ascribed the Magnificat in A-minor or sometimes called the "Little Magnificat" to Bach (BWV Anh. 21). It also is a composition by Melchior Hoffmann. > Has this Magnificat been published?
Aryeh Oron wrote (March 3, 2006): [To Douglas Cowling] See the following pages at the BCW: BWV Anh 21 - Recordings: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWVAnh21.htm BWV Anh 21 - Discussions: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWVAnh21-Gen.htm Georg Melchior Hoffmann bio: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Hoffmann.htm
Thomas Braatz wrote (March 3, 2006): In addition to the links supplied by Aryeh Oron, there are some passages I would like to share regarding the subject matter at hand. BTW, Andreas Glöckner's [isn't it odd that "Glöckner' in German means "Bell ringer"?] article on Melchior Hoffmann in the Grove Music Online (Oxford University Press, 2006,acc. 3/3/06) still features in the most recent bibliography his articles from 1982 and 1990. At that point in time, he still considered the ascription of BWV 53 to Hoffmann as being in doubt. I thought that I had read elsewhere that it was no longer being disputed, but I cannot find that particular reference. In lieu of this, I will supply other references, from the Grove Music Online (source as given above) that might shed some further light on Melchior's activities and potential for being the composer of BWV 53. However, first I will share some excerpts from Johann Gottfried Walther's "Musicalisches Lexicon...." Leipzig, 1732: Entry: Glöcklein-Ton a 2-foot stop with a wide measurement. It sounds like someone hitting an pleasantly-ringing anvil. When it is coupled (used together with) a 16-foot 'Quintade' stop, it can easily (appropriately) be used in faster moving passages along with a sweet-sounding accompaniment supplied on another manual. Entry: Tintinabulum or Tintinnabulum (Latin), a little bell or a small bell (like a sleighbell) or any other kind of sound produced that sounds like a little bell. Remarkably, although there are a number of Hoffmanns listed in Walther's musical dictionary, Melchior Hoffmann is not even mentioned anywhere! Here is an excerpt from George J. Buelow's article on Kuhnau in which Hoffmann is mentioned. Rather unsenstive and morbid is the manner in which the city council officials of Leipzig recruited replacements for the major musical directors in Leipzig -- Bach was treated similarly only because he was beginning to lose his sight. >>During the last years of his life Kuhnau suffered constantly from ill-health and grew deeply dissatisfied with the deteriorating conditions at the Thomasschule. The number and quality of young voices available for the choir at the Thomaskirche declined as the students were enticed away to perform at the Leipzig opera. When the young Telemann arrived in 1701 as a law student, he immediately established a rival musical organization in the form of a collegium musicum, which attracted some of Kuhnau's pupils. Telemann managed to obtain permission from the mayor to write music for the Thomaskirche: this blatantly undermined Kuhnau's authority, and he was powerless to prevent it. Much the same privilege was granted to Melchior Hoffmann when Telemann left Leipzig in 1705. Moreover, one of Kuhnau's own pupils, J.F. Fasch, attempted to interfere further with his musical responsibilities by proposing to establish another collegium musicum in the university and by trying to take over the direction of the music at the university and the Paulinerkirche, but Kuhnau managed to forestall him. In 1703, during one of his several periods of illness, the town council too annoyed Kuhnau by asking Telemann to succeed him should he die. Despite his difficulties, however, he had the satisfaction of teaching many excellent students, including Graupner and Heinichen. He was greatly esteemed by many of Germany's foremost musicians and was the last of the many-sided Thomaskantors, a man who 'displayed an element of medieval universality and mastered music, law, theology, rhetoric, poetry, mathematics and foreign languages' (Schering, 1926). Scheibe put him alongside Handel, Keiser and Telemann as one of the major German composers before Hasse and the Grauns, and Mattheson, paying equal tribute to his musicianship and his erudition, claimed never to have known his like as composer, organist, chorus director and scholar.<< From another very interesting article on the Leipzig opera by the same author, Stauffer, we find that Melchior Hoffmann had a relatively long tenure (considering his short life-span) as the director of the Leipzig Opera. During this time he would have had opportunity for employing bells as part of the staging and sound effects. Also worth noting are some potential Bach connections: 1. Stauffer's reference to the figures on stage addressing the audience directly -- this, a century later, becomes the very essence of Romantic drama (dramatic stage plays during the time of German Romanticism, in which the characters on stage would step out of their roles temporarily to address the audience directly concerning what was happening in the play) which Stauffer compares to Bach's madrigal-like cantatas (does Stauffer refer to the sacred cantatas here as well?). 2. The itinerant Italian troupes included castrati which visited and performed in Leipzig during Bach's tenure -- is there a connection here to BWV 51? >>The formal beginning of opera in Leipzig can be traced to the licence granted by Elector Johann Georg III to Nicolaus Adam Strungk of Dresden in 1692 to operate a public opera house and present 15 performances during each of the three trade fairs. Strungk acquired a plot on the Brühl, just inside the city wall on the north-east corner of town, and commissioned Italian architect Girolamo Sartorio, builder of opera houses in Hanover, Amsterdam and Hamburg, to construct the town's first opera house. The house opened on 8 May 1693 during the Easter Fair with a performance of Strungk's Alceste, which featured a German libretto fashioned from Aurelio Aureli's well-known Italian text by Paul Thymich, a language instructor at the Thomasschule, and a cast of local singers that included Thymich's wife, Anna Catharina, in the role of Alcestis. Local composers, local performers and mostly German texts were to become mainstays of the Leipzig opera with its audience of wealthy citizens, university students and fair visitors. Other composers to write for the Leipzig house included Telemann, Christian Ludwig Boxberg, Gottfried Grünewald, Johann David Heinichen, Melchior Hoffmann and Johann Gottfried Vogler. Although the music to most of this repertory is lost, the surviving librettos show a marked taste for both mythological and historical themes - Strungk's Nero (1693) or Agrippina (1699), Telemann's Ferdinand und Isabella (1703) or Die Satyren in Arcadien (1719) and Heinichen's Hercules (1714), for instance - and comic subjects - Grünewald's Der ungetreue Schäffer Cardillo (1703) and Heinichen's Der angenehme Betrug oder Der Karneval in Venedig (1709), for example. The Leipzig librettos show a strong inclination towards informality, with opera seria gods speaking to the audience about everyday situations in everyday language, much like the figures in the madrigal texts of Bach's cantatas. Like opera elsewh, Leipzig productions often dwelt on the spectacular. Strungk's Phocas (1696) called for a burning tower, a wild bear and a storm. For singers the Leipzig opera relied principally on students for the male roles and wives and daughters of men associated with the company for the female roles. Grünewald, Telemann, Graupner, Fasch, Heinichen and others took time from their academic studies at the university to sing in the opera. The instrumentalists, too, were drawn chiefly from the student ranks, much to the annoyance of Kuhnau, who complained that the opera was draining the resources for church music-making. After Strungk's death in 1700 the Leipzig opera was directed by Telemann, who ran the operation with great vigour from 1702 to 1704 by recruiting the students from his collegium musicum. Following Telemann's departure for Sorau (he continued to contribute works afterwards), Hoffmann served as principal director until his death in 1715. After Hoffmann's tenure Leipzig opera declined. A gradual accumulation of debts led to the closing of Sartorio's opera house in 1720, and the building was razed in 1729. For the next 30 years opera was provided by itinerant Italian troupes that performed on temporary stages (indoor and out) during the fair times. The most famous visitors were the Mingotti brothers, Angelo and Pietro, whose virtuoso ensembles sometimes included castratos. Riemer reports seeing the opera Adelaide, Königin aus Italien and the intermezzo Amor fa l'uomo cieco with excellent Italian soloists (including castratos and prima donnas) during the 1744 Easter Fair. Also significant was the appearance of the Singspiel in the form of Der Teufel ist los (an adaptation of Charles Coffey's The Devil to Pay) presented first by a visiting troupe under Johann Friedrich Schönemann in 1750 and then by Heinrich Gottfried Koch's local company in 1752. Visiting or temporary troupes remained the chief source of opera in Leipzig until the construction of the Comödienhaus after the Seven Years War (1756-63).<< In another article by Stauffer, Melchior Hoffmann is mentioned again in connection with a collegium musicum: >>Credit for making the collegium musicum a force in Leipzig cultural life must go to Telemann, who formed a group around 1702 while studying law at the university. Under his energetic direction, the 'Telemann collegium' grew to 40 players and gave well-organized weekly performances in coffee houses (which appeared in great numbers after being introduced to Leipzig in 1694). Telemann's group also provided sacred music in the Neukirche, where Telemann was awarded the post of organist in 1704 on the promise that he would bring his student players with him. After Telemann's departure in 1705, his collegium was directed by Melchior Hoffmann (1704-15), Johann Gottfried Vogler (1715-20), Georg Balthasar Schott (1720-29), J.S. Bach (1729-36 and 1739-41) and Carl Gotthelf Gerlach (1736-9 and 1741-c1745). Apart from Bach, all served as organist of the Neukirche. During Bach's tenure, the ensemble met on Friday evenings in Zimmermann's Coffee House during the winter and Wednesday afternoons in Zimmermann's Coffee Garden during the summer. A second collegium, such as that directed by Johann Friedrich Fasch from 1708-11 or that by Johann Gottlieb Görner from 1723-56, often ran parallel to Telemann's. During the trade fairs both collegia added a special weekly concert and arranged the schedule so that fair visitors could hear music four evenings per week. The concerts featured a mixed fare of appealing, progressive vocal and instrumental music. Gottfried Heinrich Stölzel, who played in Telemann's collegium from 1707 to 1710, described the programme as beginning with an overture, continuing with vocal and solo concertos and closing with a Sinfonie. This parallels the music that Bach performed during his collegium tenure: overtures (including pieces by Johann Bernhard Bach), violin and harpsichord concertos, secular cantatas (including the famous 'Coffee Cantata'), instrumental sonatas and possibly book 2 of Das wohltemperirte Clavier. The collegia also took part in performances of allegiance music written for the Saxon royal family, which often involved large-scale polychoral pieces performed on the market square, such as Bach's Preise dein Glücke, gesegnetes Sachsen, BWV 215. A third collegium appeared in 1743. Organized by Leipzig merchants and termed the 'Grosse Concert-Gesellschaft', the ensemble performed in the hotel 'zu den drei Schwanen' to a subscription audience that grew to over 200 people by 1750. It was this group, directed at first by Johann Friedrich Doles and then by Gerlach and Johann Schneider, that outlasted the others. By 1763 it had grown to include a string section of 8-8-3-2-2 and a full complement of woodwind and brass.<< Finally, in a cooperative effort by James Blades and Charles Bodman Rae, the authors of the following excerpt, find that BWV 53 constitutes the first use ever of bells used with other instruments. [I wonder whether the authors have investigated Michael Praetorius description of various bells (with illustrations) used in music (Syntagma musicum II, p. 4) which includes "Campanae, Glocken" ("Bells"); "Tintinabula, Glöcklein" ("Little Bells"); "Nolae, Schellichen" ("Sleighbells")]? There is a recording by the August Wenzinger (sp?) group on LP many years ago of dances by Praetorius where bells are used together with viols, etc. Would this not constitute the earliest example of what the authors above had mentioned? [This observation is not intended to deprive Hoffmann of the distinction of being the first, if and when it is definitively established that he was the composer of BWV 53.] >>Bells were first used in orchestral music in the cantata "Schlage doch, gewünschte Stunde" (formerly attributed to Bach, now tentatively attributed to Melchior Hoffmann) they were probably small and operated from the organ manual. Bells are called for in various late 18th-century scores, e.g. Dalayrac's opera Camille (1791) and Cherubini's Elisa (1794). Rossini called for a bell to sound g' in the second act of Guillaume Tell (1829), and Meyerbeer for low bells sounding c and f in Les Huguenots (1836). Possibly real church bells were used on these occasions, and also by Berlioz for the finale of his Symphonie fantastique (1830). In the original score of Boris Godunov (1868-9) Musorgsky called for trezvonï (see Chimes, �1; for details of the bells used at the first performance of Tchaikovksy's 1812 Overture (1882), see �2 above). The use of real church bells, or their near equivalent, is connected more with the theatre than the concert hall: the stage equipment of many opera houses includes real church bells. Some composers have aimed to imitate their effect with orchestral colour; others have usubstitutes, including tubular bells, bell plates, mushroom bells and electrically amplified metal bars, piano wires and clock gongs. Mushroom bells and large bronze plates, such as those used in La Scala and the Covent Garden mushroom bells, have proved effective substitutes for church bells. The instruments used for the notorious ostinato tolling which accompanies the processions of the Grail Knights in Wagner's Parisfal (1882) have ranged from church bells and a piano frame with four strings (occasionally supplemented with the 16' stop of an electric organ) to hammered bell machines, amplified metal rods and gongs; since the 1970s synthesizers and electronic instruments have increasingly been used. Wagner apparently based the ostinato, a pattern of interlocking perfect fourths c-G-A-E, on chimes which he had heard at Kloster Beuron; the motif was soon to become as ubiquitous in German timepieces as William Crotch's 'Westminster' chimes had long been in England (see Chimes, �2). The bells generally used in the concert hall are Tubular bells (termed 'chimes' in the USA, 'orchestra bells' being the term for the glockenspiel). These were introduced by John Hampton of Coventry in 1886, for the peal of four bells in Sullivan's Golden Legend. In 1890, tubular bells appeared with a keyboard (the codophone) at the Paris Opéra. In the symphonies of Mahler, bells are used for literal effects (the sleigh bells in the outer movements of the Fourth Symphony) and metaphoric reasons (in the Sixth Symphony real alpine Cowbells allude to the ascension of a human soul). In the fifth movement of the Third Symphony Mahler employed bells in pentatonic patterns. Outstanding bell writing in the modern orchestra can be found in John Ireland's These Things Shall Be (1937), Britten's chamber opera The Turn of the Screw (1954), Messiaen's Turangalîla-symphonie (1946-8) and Chronochromie (1960), Boulez's Pli selon pli (1959-62), William Alwyn's Fifth Symphony 'Hydriotaphia' (1972-3) and Tippett's The Rose Lake (1991-3); Stockhausen wrote for a specially constructed set of bell plates in Musik im Bauch (1975). Composers also use orchestral colour to imitate the motivic and timbral effects of bell ringing and chiming for metaphoric or allusive reasons.<<
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (March 3, 2006): BWV 53 Bracha Kol (Abu Ghosh Festival) [18] http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachRecordings/message/16922 Because Aryeh does not compress as much as I do with audiograbber and which is rather necessary in the limited space of Yahoogroups files, there was no room at GMHof or at BachCantatas for this file made from a live concert in Israel (I am assuming) which Aryeh very generously and kindly sent me. Therefore I uploaded it to the BachRecordings files area where there is almost no use of the file space. I have not listened to it. I do thank Aryeh again,
Peter Smaill wrote (March 4, 2006): [To Doug Cowling] Not only can one hope that Suzuki will record the lovely "Trauer-Aria" BWV 53, "Schlage doch," but certainly Gardiner who holds the piece in high regard, having played it at Iona on the 250^th anniversary of Bach's death. Here is the programme note by Ruth Tatlow; "Although this funeral aria is now known to be by Melchior Hoffmann (1685-17150 rather than by Bach, it is sufficiently Bachian in style to have tricked the editors of the Bach Gesellschaft and so find a place in Schmieder's original catalogue of Bach's works in 1950. the aria features solo bells in G and D, graphically depicting the word "Schlage" (beat) representing both the death knell, albeit joyous, and the failing heart beat." On the campanella we have more detail fom Whittaker: "there are two bells, B and E, written for in the bas stave as transposing instruments, D and g being the indicated notes. there is nothing to tell whether deep or high bells are required, though the string bell effects suggest that a contrast of pitch is needed. It will be remembered that when Bach drew up a specification for the reconstruction of the Mühlhausen organ he inserted a st of bells to be operated by the pedals." (W goes on to talk about Handel's ownership of a keyboard carillon.) He also surmises that BWV 53, was written for a child's funeral "The sound of the bell is a welcome one, the call to an ideal life".
Douglas Cowling wrote (March 4, 2006): Ludwig wrote: < Still from an Organ pedal these bells would still be difficult to operate. It is hard enough from some Carillon Consoles from which most large bells are played except in more modern baton consoles where the learnings of science have made it easier without electrifying the action of the bells ( regarded as an unacceptable practice). > If I recall correctly, there is only one bar of 3/2 in which the bell sounds more than once. There would be plenty of time even if the mechanical action required considerable force.
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (March 3, 2006): Douglas Cowling wrote: < "Schlage Doch" is one of my favourite pieces of Baroque music -- I've asked for it at my funeral! The "campanella" are a fascinating question. Some recordings use a modern orchestral chime which sounds appropriately like a tolling funeral bell. Jacobs [13] and others use a very small chime which sounds like a mantle clock. I was surprised by this at first but then realized that the staccato string figure is meant to symbolize the ticking of a clock. Hoffmann notates it on the B above middle C. I've never heard any speculation what the "campanella" division in the organ sounded like. > Every time this subject comes up, I go back and listen to Karl Muck's 1927 recording of the so-called "Transformation Scene" in Parsifal (now on Naxos Historical "The Complete Karl Muck Parsifal Recordings") which is supposed to be the only place where one can hear "the bells of Monstalvat, built to Wagner's specifications for the first performance of Parsifal, and alas destroyed in the Second World War. [These bells] made (and still make) an extraordinary impact on the listener". I would rather not moan any destruction of WWII connected to Wagner who one cannot exculpate for much destructive philosophy that caused far worse destruction than bells. However, while the Muck recording is fascinating, just listened to tracks 6-9 (end of CD) three times, I don't hear much of the bells. My loss, I am sure.
Tom Hens wrote (March 3, 2006): I've looked at the earlier list discussions on this topic on the website to see if I might not simply be repeating things said earlier, but I don't think so. So here goes: Douglas Cowling wrote: < "Schlage Doch" is one of my favourite pieces of Baroque music -- I've asked for it at my funeral! The "campanella" are a fascinating question. > Why not assume the simplest answer is the right one? Campanella is a perfectly ordinary Italian word, the diminituve of "campana", and means little bell or chime. A bit of very superficial googling also shows it is used in musical contexts (completely unrelated to this cantata) as a synonym for "tintinnabulum", again a "small, tinkling bell" (American Heritage Dictionary), or a small set of such bells joined together. It definitely does not mean "large (church) bells". < Some recordings use a modern orchestral chime which sounds appropriately like a tolling funeral bell. Jacobs [13] and others use a very small chime which sounds like a mantle clock. I was surprised by this at first but then realized that the staccato string figure is meant to symbolize the ticking of a clock. > And this seems to me to be the solution to the riddle, if there ever was a riddle in the first place. Simply reading the short text shows it doesn't say anythingspecific at all about church bells, or such bells tolling for a funeral. It does refer very specifically to a clock, however, in the last lines: "Ich begehr' von Herzensgrunde / Nur den letzten Zeigerschlag!" "Zeigerschlag" refers to the ticking of a clock (either the sound made when the seconds or the minutes hand moves, or the visual equivalent). It seems to me the underlying metaphor of the text, and the intended musical representation with the bells, is clearly that of a clock ticking away the time until the chimes sound at the top of the hour. Church bells tolling at a funeral don't mark a specific "Zeigerschlag" on a clock, AFAIK. < Hoffmann notates it on the B above middle C. I've never heard any speculation what the "campanella" division in the organ sounded like. > One very well-founded piece of speculation would be: it could simply be used as an italianate designation for a glockenspiel register, perhaps coupled to the pedal as in the St. Blasius organ in Mühlhausen. Assuming such an arrangement would also seem to explain Hoffmann's notation using a bass clef: it would simply be transposing notation to make things easier for the organist. But since only two notes are needed, any two properly tuned little bells would serve just as well.
Tom Hens wrote (March 3, 2006): Ludwig wrote: On the off chance someone might take you seriously, let's just put the record straight: < This work is not by JS Bach but by his grandfather or cousin who had the same name. It was mistakenly attributed to JS Bach the later(the one everyone means when they say JS Bach) instead of the earlier Bach. > There is no other composer with the name Johann Sebastian Bach, he was the first in the family to have the name Sebastian. The only other Johann Sebastian Bach was a grandson, one of C.P.E.'s children, who didn't produce music, he was a painter. < If we examine the Documents concerning the Organ for the Church that this work was composed to be presented in --there are explanations of the bells. > There are no documents showing that BWV 53 was ever intended for performance in a church, let alone which church specifically.
Tom Hens wrote (March 3, 2006): Peter Smaill wrote: < Not only can one hope that Suzuki will record the lovely "Trauer-Aria" BWV 53, "Schlage doch," > Is the designation "Trauer-Aria" actually on the ms., or is that just another one of those nineteenth-century accretions? < Here is the programme note by Ruth Tatlow; "Although this funeral aria is now known to be by Melchior Hoffman (1685-1715) rather than by Bach, it is sufficiently Bachian in style to have tricked the editors of the Bach Gesellschaft and so find a place in Schmieder's original catalogue of Bach's works in 1950." > Based on what I've read, the erroneous 19^th century attribution to Bach, just as with Hoffmann's "little" Magnificat, had nothing at all to do with it being Bachian in musical style, but simply with Hoffmann's hand being quite similar to that of JSB. And of course it found a place in "Schmieder's original catalogue": he made a table of contents to the chaotic BG edition, not as a systematic works catalogue separating authentic from inauthentic works. (As the editors of BWV 2a put it: "kein Werk-, sondern ein Inhaltsverzeichnis zur alten Bach-Gesamtausgabe"). Since they had published it as cantata no. 53, it inevitably became BWV 53, whatever doubts about authenticity existed. < On the campanella we have more detail fom Whittaker: <snip> "It will be remembered that when Bach drew up a specification for the reconstruction of the Mühlhausen organ he inserted a set of bells to be operated by the pedals." > How easily things get twisted. Bach did no such thing. In the memorandum he wrote somewhere in early 1708 about the refurbishment of the organ in St. Blasius in Mühlhausen, he mentions a new Glockenspiel register as point 6 in the list of things to be done: "Das von denen Herrn Eingepfarten begehrte neue Glockenspiel ins Pedal, bestehend in 26 Glocken à 4 Fuß-thon; Welche Glocken die Herrn Eingepfarten auff ihre kosten schon anschaffen werden, und der Orgelmacher solche hernachmals gangbahr machen wird". My translation: "The new Glockenspiel in the pedal which the members of the parish council [I hope that's a correct interpretation of "Herrn Eingepfarten"] want, consisting of 26 bells at 4' pitch. These bells will be acquired by the parish council at their expense, and subsequently made playable [i.e., incorporated into the pedal mechanism] by the organ builder." In other words, this glockenspiel register wasn't Bach's idea at all, it's something people in the parish insisted on, and even the finances are handled separately from the rest of the work. < He also surmises that BWV53, was written for a child's funeral. > "Surmises" is a nice way of putting "he's just making it up". I surmise it was written for the birthday party of a 103-year old lady who was in bad health, and fondly hoping to die soon. Prove me wrong.
Tom Hens wrote (March 3, 2006): Thomas Braatz wrote: < Finally, in a cooperative effort by James Blades and Charles Bodman Rae, the authors of the following excerpt, find that BWV 53 constitutes the first use ever of bells used with other instruments. [I wonder whether the authors have investigated Michael Praetorius description of various bells (with illustrations) used in music (Syntagma musicum II, p. 4) which includes "Campanae, Glocken" ("Bells"); "Tintinabula, Glöcklein" ("Little Bells"); "Nolae, Schellichen" ("Sleighbells")]? There is a recording by the August Wenzinger (sp?) group on LP many years ago of dances by Praetorius where bells are used together with viols, etc. Would this not constitute the earliest example of what the authors above had mentioned? > Bells have been used in combination with other instruments since antiquity. < [This observation is not intended to deprive Hoffmann of the distinction of being the first, if and when it is definitively established that he was the composer of BWV 53.] > It begs the question: how and to what year did they date BWV 53? If the good burghers of Mühlhausen insisted in 1708 on having a glockenspiel register in their refurbished organ, that means such registers must have been around for some time already -- they would hardly come up with an unheard-of instrumental innovation all on their own. So they were definitely being played by that date, and in combination with other instruments (at the very least, the other organ registers).
Peter Smaill wrote (March 4, 2006): Poor W Gillies Whittaker! He wrote his extensive review of the Cantatas in 1959 (c. 1500 pp) and of course on many scholarly points analysis of Bach has moved on. The reference to the Mühlhausen organ "having bells operated by the pedals inserted by Bach" is on the evidence wrong in that "inserted by" overstates his role. However, as Duerr (c.1000pp, including texts) (and Robertson) does not deign to analyse BWV53 at all we are left with him, and the attribution of "Schlage doch" is duly and rightly described by Whittaker as "doubted". Whittaker does clearly state that ""Trauer-aria" is clearly written on the manuscript". The surmise (Whittaker states that it is one) that "Schlage doch" was for a child is certainly statistically more probable than the 103 year old lady theory. When John Eliot Gardiner states on stylistic grounds that "some insisted on stylistic grounds that the high-pitched quavers in the flute in BWV 61/4 and in BWV 8/1 symbolise the high pitched funeral bells associated withinfant death," no-one rises up to challenge the "surmise' of a living specialist, who, like Whittaker, is careful enough to avoid saying it is a fact. Where an individual, dead or alive, has immersed themselves in baroque Cantatas and indicates when the speculation begins, then we have an interesting line of conjecture which other scholarship may help confirm or deny. It is not invalidated as such by postulating an absurd and improbable countertheory with no stylistic evidence at all, leaving the implication that the absurd is as likely as the conjectures of the (admittedly never infallible) expert. What is appealing about Whittaker (say as compared to Dürr) is a greater level of warmth in the emotional response to the Cantatas as well as scholarship, less painstaking than the latter no doubt. But sometimes more revealing.
Douglas Cowling wrote (March 4, 2006): Bells and Bach Tom Hens wrote: < It begs the question: how and to what year did they date BWV 53? If the good burghers of Mühlhausen insisted in 1708 on having a glockenspiel register in their refurbished organ, that means such registers must have been around for some time already -- they would hardly come up with an unheard-of instrumental innovation all on their own. > I'm speculating which organ works of Bach might have used a pitched bells rank -- as opposed to the percussive zimbelstern. The likeliest candidate would "In Dulci Jubilo) with its long pedal points on G and D. That would mean that the bells would have to be played by the left hand from a manual. Just speculating .... No evidence whatsoever.
Douglas Cowling wrote (March 4, 2006): Tom Hens wrote: < There are no documents showing that BWV 53 was ever intended for performance in a church, let alone which church specifically. > Conversely, there is no evidence that is wasn't performed in church as a funeral motet.
Douglas Cowling wrote (March 5, 2006): Tom Hens wrote: < It seems to me the underlying metaphor of the text, and the intended musical representation with the bells, is clearly that of a clock ticking away the time until the chimes sound at the top of the hour. Church bells tolling at a funeral don't mark a specific "Zeigerschlag" on a clock, AFAIK. > A personal request ... I raised the question because there was a difference of opinion among performers. The logical solution is the one you outline above. However, I find the tone of your response supercilious and offensive. Please try to frame your responses objectively without gratuitous comments about the worth of the question or the intention of the posting member.
Tom Hens wrote (March 4, 2006): Douglas Cowling wrote: < Conversely, there is no evidence that is wasn't performed in church as a funeral motet. > Of course not. But the person I was responding to was going on about imaginary "Documents" purportedly showing that BWV 53 was intended for performance in a specific church with a specific organ.
Tom Hens wrote (March 4, 2006): Douglas Cowling wrote: < A personal request ... I raised the question because there was a difference of opinion among performers. The logical solution is the one you outline above. However, I find the tone of your response supercilious and offensive. > I'm sorry if it came across to you that way. I was just trying to state clearly what to me seems the most straightforward interpretation of the text. If you hadn't referred to the possible musical depiction of a ticking clock, I would never have looked at the text in detail in the first place. (I was also catching up on some backlog all at once, so I perhaps didn't reread what I'd written as carefully as I'd normally do.) Interpreting someone's intended tone in this purely written medium is often difficult. Especially when one is communicating among people with widely divergent personal and cultural backgrounds, for many of whom English isn't their native language. Based on past experience I've decided that stating things clearly avoids more communication problems than it causes, even though it also carries the risk of coming across as brusque or overly blunt. < Please try to frame your responses objectively without gratuitous comments about the worth of the question or the intention of the posting member. > I've reread all the messages I sent earlier today. I can't find any comments that fit your description. But at least I've learned that calling someone's tone "supercilious and offensive" counts as an objective response, and isn't a gratuitous comment about the intention of the posting member at all. Thank you.
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (March 5, 2006): Schlage doch Bracha Kol [18] Lutherans, Atheists, Zoroastrians, simple music lovers (as this is a music list), I listened to the Schlage doch live recording by Bracha Kol [18] a little while ago. She indeed has a lovely voice and fine diction and the bells are on the light side. She does to my ears a lot of (appropriate) embellishments at various phrases which gives the work her own distinctive touches. I totally enjoyed her and the work but towards the very end I began to laugh out loud. This was not a sign of disrespect but a reaction on the part of my soul to what seemed to me to be a certain lack of "gravitas" in this recording compared to all the other recordings of this aria-cantata that I have heard throughout the years. I was laughing and then the applause came on and I joined in the applause and continued laughing and I have never had that reaction to Schlage doch in my life. Thanks to Aryeh for the opportunity and the pleasure of hearing this recording.
William Rowland (Ludwig) wrote (March 6, 2006): [To Douglas Cowling] I believe you are correct. It is typically played with cybelstern.
William Rowland (Ludwig) wrote (March 6, 2006): [To Tom Hens] I am in the midst of a thesis and do not have time to get in this but if you will remind me I can probally (if I do not have this confused with something else) give you a citation documenting what I have said.
Ludwig wrote (March 6, 2006): [To Tom Hens] I am not sure with the reply who said what but it is true that Bells have been used with other instuments as many medaevil manuscripts will show and say and probally before then. I just do not have the time at this moment to research this further back than the 11^th century.
Tom Hens wrote (March 9, 2006): Peter Smaill wrote: <snip> < The surmise (Whittaker states that it is one) that "Schlage doch" was for a child is certainly statistically more probable than the 103 year old lady theory. > It is? Statistically, the probability that special music would be written for the funeral of a child is extremely low, and at a bet I'd rate it as zero. At least, I've never heard of any music from Bach's era and geographic area that was written explicitly for the funeral of a child. Maybe I've missed something, can you name some examples? Bach himself doesn't seem to have written anything of the kind for the many children he had to bury. All funeral music we have by him is for people well advanced in years. < When John Eliot Gardiner states on stylistic grounds that "some insisted on stylistic grounds that the high-pitched quavers in the flute in BWV 61/4 and in BWV 8/1 symbolise the high pitched funeral bells associated with infant death," no-one rises up to challenge the "surmise' of a living specialist, who, like Whittaker, is careful enough to avoid saying it is a fact. > I might, at least if I could tell more clearly just what Jeggy stated, and what sources he gives. I somewhat fail to grasp why many contributors here seem to hold Gardiner in such high regard, either as a performer or as a "specialist". Is this statement based on historical sources about what kind of bells were rung at Lutheran funeral services in Saxony in the first half of the eighteenth century? It might be, but as you quote it, the claim is introduced with "some insisted" -- now there's an unclear phrase if there was one. Or is he by any chance just rehashing things earlier "specialists" have "surmised"? < Where an individual, dead or alive, has immersed themselves in baroque Cantatas and indicates when the speculation begins, then we have an interesting line of conjecture which other scholarship may help confirm or deny. > We might have. So, where is that scholarship on BWV 53 linking it to a child's funeral? < It is not invalidated as such by postulating an absurd and improbable countertheory with no stylistic evidence at all, > The burden of proof for a claim lies with the person making the claim. I did not advance a countertheory, I just gave an example of a similar "surmising" with just as little evidence to back it up as you did for Whittaker's one. Maybe there is more in his book, of course. So please tell me on what stylistic grounds Whittaker concluded that BWV 53 was composed for the funeral of a child. Please also tell me on what evidence he bases the assumption that it was composed for a funeral at all. The piece itself seems to be much too short to function as a piece of stand-alone church music. The funeral assumption just seems to be based on the text. But we can find exactly the same sentiments expressed in the aria "Schlummert ein", for instance, which is in the Notenbüchlein of Anna Magdalena Bach. We know that definitely wasn't intended for a funeral. And we know the cantata, BWV 82, from which that aria was borrowed also isn't intended for a funeral. < leaving the implication that the absurd is as likely as the conjectures of the (admittedly never infallible) expert. > People I would consider experts don't go in for unsubstianted "conjectures", which is usually a polite way of saying "pure speculation". (Always be especially careful of sentences starting with "Undoubtedly". What follows is usually pure invention.)
Eric Begerud wrote (March 23, 2006): <> BTW: thanks to the recent thread concerning mezzos and countertenors, I've been listening to a lot of solo cantatas done by males and females. Stumbled on a Naxos recording by Marianne Kielland [23] that I liked a lot. Anyway it included Schlage doch with lots of bells: not the king Quasimodo would have tended to, but real bells. Sweet.

Introduction to BWV 158 - "Der Friede sei mit dir" OT: Schlage Doch
Continue of discussion from: Cantata BWV 158 - Discussions
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (January 22, 2007): Douglas Cowling wrote: < I remember being shocked when I read that cantata BWV 53, "Schlage Doch Gewünschte Stunde" was by Hoffmann not by Bach. How could something so beautiful not be by Bach? Perhaps that's what we're encountering here in this cantata. Bach looms so large for us that it is hard to credit lesser mortals with writing fine music. > Somehow I was not shocked or hurt or offended when I heard that one of my desert island works was not by Bach. Somehow there was no reason at all to think that there were not other composers who could and did produce stunning works. Somehow the work simply spoke and sang to me for so long that it stood as what it is. Sadly however complete cantata sets stopped including it and that was mis-guided in my opinion. However there are so many wonderful recordings, most, it seems, with counter-tenors amongst the recent ones. An exception is Israeli mezzo Bracha Kol whose recording [18] is not generally available and whose recording together with the participants is one of the most felicitous. I am sure that they are many great works which each of us has not heard. There are many magical composers but most of them seem to have produced a couple of great works but not endless great works. We don't really know much of Hoffmann and I doubt that we can form a judgment on him as a whole. Then again how many works on the level of his Stabat Mater did Pergolesi produce (yes, he died at 26)? There are the two Salve Regina settings and then a lot of things that were ascribed and a few other items including a well-known opera with which I have never really bothered. Then there are composers like Mozart and Haydn who produced without end. Personally I find much of Mozart less than super-duper (that's my own view and cannot be argued against). I find some of Mozart amazing. I fear that Glenn Gould felt much the same about Mozart; actually he used to express a far lower opinion.
Russell Telfer wrote (January 23, 2007): Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote: (in reply to Douglas Cowling - about BWV 53) < Sadly however complete cantata sets stopped including it and that was misguided in my opinion. > I agree! I'd like to help push this into the public domain: there is a market opportunity for someone who is prepared to create quality performances for the neglected ducklings: BWV 15, BWV 53, BWV 141, BWV 142, BWV 160, BWV 189, BWV 217, BWV 218, BWV 219, BWV 220, BWV 221 and BWV 222. I'm sure Brad, Douglas, or one of our distinguished alumni could pave the way for a bit of worthwhile enterprise. < Personally I find much of Mozart less than super-duper (that's my own view and cannot be argued against). I find some of Mozart amazing. > I agree again. I bought the Brilliant Complete Mozart and was surprised at how tawdry some of the music in this set is. And of course some of it is amazing too.
Eric Bergerud wrote (January 23, 2007): [To Douglas Cowling] I'm not sure Bach was the type of gent that would have chuckled about incorrect attribution of his work, but Mr. Landon's point via Doug is certainly well taken. This brings up a question that perhaps wiser heads can answer. According to my liner notes of Herreweghe's version of BWV 158 and those accompanying the wonderful CD Apocryphal Bach Cantatas (BWV 15, BWV 141, BWV 142, BWV 160) by Wolfgang Helbich there were a number of Bach works originally attributed to JSB that have been "defrocked" - mostly in relatively modern times. It would be very interesting to know how many Bach instrumental works were in this category. Anyway, all of the works on Helbich's were attributed as early Bach as was 158 according to Wolff. The good gents first attempting to catalog Bach's works seem to have started with the basics: let's find the works with Bach's signature, hand writing or a solid attribution from a good source. Contemporary research as proved them wrong on occasion. However, were they wrong because they didn't know Bach's works or those of his contemporaries well enough, or were they more easily fooled because they were dealing with very large amounts of early 18^th century music and were thus vulnerable to misjudging the work of a lesser composer who happened to have a very good day. In other words, did they have too much or too little data? Anyway, pity the poor musicologists. Anyone dealing with stylistic analysis for attribution or interpretation is always skating on thin ice. (Think of how many fewer Rembrandt's we have these days thanks to modern analytical techniques.) Gives one a case of the humbles. Of course now we have copyright: too bad there's so little music worth preserving. (And if Bach didn't compose Schlage Doch he should have, or at least used bells more often.) BTW: Actually there are some Schubert operas out there. I have Fierrabras which has some really nice music, but a dopey libretto. Judging from the lyrics of his songs, Schubert was no master of the word. I wonder if inane plots might not have kept some of Schubert's operas off the stage. But heaven knows opera fans are fickle. I've also developed a prettyhefty Telemann collection and love it dearly. He couldn't match Bach day in day out, but why Vivaldi gets better press is beyond me.
Eric Bergerud wrote (January 23, 2007): OT: Schlage Doch Douglas Cowling wrote: < I remember being shocked when I read that cantata BWV 53, "Schlage Doch Gewünschte Stunde" was by Hoffmann not by Bach. How could something so beautiful not be by Bach? Perhaps that's what we're encountering here in this cantata. Bach looms so large for us that it is hard to credit lesser mortals with writing fine music. > Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote: < Somehow I was not shocked or hurt or offended when I heard that one of my desert island works was not by Bach. Somehow there was no reason at all to think that there were not other composers who could and did produce stunning works. Somehow the work simply spoke and sang to me for so long that it stood as what it is. Sadly however complete cantata sets stopped including it and that was mis-guided in my opinion. However there are so many wonderful recordings, most, it seems, with counter-tenors amongst the recent ones. An exception is Israeli mezzo Bracha Kol whose recording [18] is not generally available and whose recording together with the participants is one of the most felicitous. > Schlage Doch fans really should check the Naxos version included in Bach Sacred Cantatas for Alto (BWV 54, BWV 169, BWV 170 and BWV 200). They are sung by Norwegian mezzo Marianne Kielland with the Cologne Chamber Orchestra [23]. Kielland is young for the job but has a very weighty voice, almost masculine: a kind of anti-Cecilia Bartoli. Anyway, to my ears it's a lovely CD all around. And Schlage Doch is beautifully sung with lots and lots of bells. I like bells.
William Rowland (Ludwig) wrote (January 23, 2007): [To Eric Bergerud] Are these REAL Bells not fake substitutes as electronic chimes, tubular chimes and other fakes??
Eric Bergerud wrote (January 23, 2007): [To Ludwig] I wouldn't underestimate electronic fakers, but they sure sound real to me and there are lots of them. Sure don't think they're chimes: I'd guess hand bells. (It might not fit the libretto, but a pity they didn't throw in a canon round or two. Hey, it ain't Bach.) You can check the Naxos catalogue http://www.naxos.com . (The work is number 8.557621 - that's the easiest way to search their huge catalog.) I'm not sure whether you'll be able to hear enough of the cut to tell. I paid them a fee to be able to listen to cuts in their entirety: normal humans I think get about 90 seconds. Worth a try though.
Ed Myskowski wrote (January 23, 2007): Eric Bergerud wrote: < I wouldn't underestimate electronic fakers, but they sure sound real to me > Nor would a few of us underestimate 19^th C. (that would be 1800's, for those unclear on the concept) counterfeiters, pre-electronic fakers. If it sounds like Bach, is it Bach?
Eric Bergerud wrote (January 23, 2007): Russell Telfer wrote: < I agree! I'd like to help push this into the public domain: there is a market opportunity for someone who is prepared to create quality performances for the neglected ducklings: BWV 15, BWV 53, BWV 141, BWV 142, BWV 160, BWV 189, BWV 217, BWV 218, BWV 219, BWV 220, BWV 221 and BWV 222. I'm sure Brad, Douglas, or one of our distinguished alumni could pave the way for a bit of worthwhile enterprise. << Personally I find much of Mozart less than super-duper (that's my own view and cannot be argued against). I find some of Mozart amazing. >> < I agree again. I bought the Brilliant Complete Mozart and was surprised at how tawdry some of the music in this set is. And of course some of it is amazing too. > It would be nice to get every out of print recording available online. A good project for Aryeh on a slow day. However, all (or at least most) of the works listed below are available and in print. Wolfgang Helbich's two volumes are both really nice: I recommend Vol II with no hesitation. There are six Schlage Doch's out there but only Ms. Kielland's [23] is sung by a mezzo: the others are countertenors. As for Mozart, I have lots of serenades, diverimentii etc: the things he did to pick up a quick dollar or whatever he picked up. There is a real lack of profundity in many of such works, but what strikes me is how "pretty" they all are. Perfect music for reading, cleaning the room or accompanying my trusty combat flight simulator. Might add that some months back I mentioned that the Requiem did not really impress me. Since then I've picked up two wonderful recordings (Harnoncourt and Hogwood) and hmm.... my bad. The work is a masterpiece.

Computer matches for BWV 53
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (May 22, 2009): I was searching amazon.com (and everywhere else) for two I missed, the Banditelli and the Nes (former only available from Germany with more postage than CD cost; latter out of print). Anyway, here is what amazon has recommended for me. I love computer brains. Customers with Similar Searches Purchased Schlage F10VACC619 Accent... Schlage F10VACC619 Accent Passage... Schlage BE365VCAM619 Camelot... Schlage BE365VCAM619 Camelot Deadbolt... Schlage BE365VCAM716 Camelot... Schlage BE365VCAM716 Camelot Deadbolt... $238.00 $137.98 Schlage BE365VPLY505 Plymouth... Schlage BE365VPLY505 Plymouth... $216.00 $104.17 Schlage 40-134... Schlage 40-134 Small Keying Kit FE365-CAM-ACC-716... FE365-CAM-ACC-716 Schlage Keypad... Schlage FE595VCAM619ACC Camelot... Schlage FE595VCAM619ACC Camelot...

Lamenti of Johann Christoph Bach
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (May 24, 2009): Some years ago, when either Cantata BWV 53 (now Georg Melchior Hoffmann) or Cantata BWV 54 was being discussed, as memory serves, it was Aryeh who expressed a preference for the late Henri Ledroit [10] (in one or both). Simultaneously the recordings of the friend and disciple of HL, Gérard Lesne [21], were being discussed. I soon acquired copies of both of these amazing resp. CD sets and CD of Bach Family "Cantatas" (sensu lato), both of which happened to include BOTH of the famed "lamenti" by Johann Christoph Bach (1642-1703). One "Ach, dass ich Wassers gnug hätte in meinem Haupte" is indeed for alto singer. The other "Wie bist du denn, O Gott, in Zorn auf mich entbrannt": in the "Ledroit" 2-CD set it is sung by bass Max van Egmond, whose single recording in this Ledroit album was made 13 years after the numerous "cantatas" by Ledroit himself and wisely added to this admirable collection. In Lesne's CD, Lesne sings both lamenti and thus, to my knowledge has made the only alto recording of "Wie bist du denn, O Gott". As I have continued to collect recordings of Cantata BWV 53, a long time "hobby" of mine, as some here know: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GMHof/ , I keep on gathering automatically for the most part recordings of "Ach, das ich Wassers gnug hätte" as today mostly it comes together with the Georg Melchior Hoffmann (ascribed) "Schlage doch". Nevertheless I seem to somehow have gathered a small collection of "Wie bist du denn, O Gott" as well, although, outside of the two albums I have mentioned, it does not come together with "Schlage doch". I shall list the small collection of both of these lamenti I have, listing the alto one first and making a division by counter-tenor and female alto/mezzo: Henri Ledroit/Ricercar Cons; Gérard Lesne/Seminario Musicale; Carlos Mena/Ricercar Consort; Robin Blaze/Parley of Instruments; David Cordier/Musica Antiqua Köln, Goebel (1^st recording); Daniel Taylor/Theatre of Early Music; (I know of Bowman's recording); FEMALE ALTO: Julia Hamari/Rillling (here the work is ascribed to Heinrich Bach); Magdalena Kozená/Musica Antiqua Köln, Goebel (2^nd recording); Clare Wilkinson/Gardiner (live broadcast 14, Sept, 2007). Follow now the recordings of the Bass lamento: Max van Egmond/Ricercar Consort (in the Ledroit album, as noted); Max van den Kamp/Period Instrument Ensemble; Michael Schopper/Musica Antiqua Köln/Goebel (with Goebel's 1^st recording of the Alto lamento); Wolfgang Schöne/Rilling (with the Hamari/Rilling recording of the Alto lamento); Matthew Brook/Gardiner (live broadcast 14, Sept, 2007; ALTO: Gérard Lesne/Ricercar Consort. ---------------- So it becomes quite logical and obvious how one leads to the other. Obviously the older (and they do go back a while) female altos who recorded "Schlage doch" did not record the two Johann Christoph Bach lamenti, whose recorded life began at a much later period. With so many recordings, I often hesitate a long time before acquiring a new one of "Schlage doch" or of the lamenti and I have just acquired recently the Daniel Taylor CD and found it far beyond my expectations, both for its "Schlage doch", the alto lamento, and for terrific Buxtehude items on it. The artistry and inborn talent are moving. To my "horror" I found that I have missed two CD "Schlage doch" recordings, that of Banditelli [15] and that of van Nes [14], the former only available in Germany (it seems) and the later out of print. Sorry for my typos and any mistatements,

Seeking the Jard van Nes CD which includes cantata 53
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (June 6, 2009): I (the creator of this BWV obsession "list") am seeking a copy of the Jard van Nes CD of the following cantatas: J.S. Bach: Cantatas BWV 169; BWV 54; BWV 200; BWV 53 Amsterdam Bach Soloists, Jard Van Nes [14]. I already have her only other Bach cantatas recording and hers remains the only performance on CD of BWV 53 (Schlage doch, gewünschte Stunde) that I am lacking. The CD is out of print (offered for monstrous prices on Amazon by sellers. I am really floored by her Bach as well as the little Mahler and even Karl Amadeus Hartmann I have heard. There is an odd reality. Almost any opera CD or live performance or often even LP transfers can be found on Operasell (either for trade, for just sharing [once I even asked there for the Tourel "Erbarme dich, mein Gott", never on CD, and some stranger who had transferred the whole LP simply sent me a copy and refused any reciprocation] or sometimes for buying and all three seem reasonable to me for unavailable stuff), and for symphonic stuff, it was not hard to find persons over the years on the net who traded rare and unavailable stuff, but for baroque this seems rarely to occur. Thus without someone's help, I don't know how to get this. I have of course posted Operasell.

Cantata BWV 53: Recordings \| Discussions Non-Bach Cantatas - Recordings: BWV 15 \| BWV 53 \| BWV 141 \| BWV 142 \| BWV 160 \| BWV 189 \| BWV 217 \| BWV 218 \| BWV 219 \| BWV 220 \| BWV 221 \| BWV 222 \| Discussions: Part 1 \| Part 2 \| Part 3 \| Part 4
Georg Melchior Hoffmann: Short Biography \| Cantata BWV 53 \| Cantata BWV 189 \| Little Magnificat BWV Anh 21

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