Cantata BWV 200 - Discussions

Cantata BWV 200 Bekennen will ich seinen Namen Discussions - Part 2
Continue from Part 1
Discussions in the Week of December 14, 2008
Terejia (Satoko Kodama) wrote (December 13, 2008): Introduction to BWV 200 Bekennen will ich seinen Namen It's Saturday night Japan time and I suppose that for most of the region, it may well be too early for introduction. However, since I am tied up all the day tomorrow(well...actually I'm going to perform BWV 654 and some Christmas/Advent related orgelbuechlein pieces...), please forgive for my early posting. I’d like to change my modus operandi in introduction and firstly I give a link of recordings samples here : http://www.kantate.info/old_recordings.htm#BWV200 http://www.emusic.com/search.html?mode=x&QT=BWV200&x=19&y=13 I would imagine it might well be convenient to have recording samples to hand, although I would also imagine there are those who have preference listening to CDs or maybe even LPs despite some inconvenience for searching. Overall guidance for this work: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV200.htm previous discussions: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV200-D.htm The link above contains most of the valuable information about the gem masterpiece, including comment on recordings, professional commentars. After two weeks of joyous and merrily secular cantatas, it would be good to return to tranquil music with more familiar flavour to most of us about Bach. This is an Alto aria with the accompany of as stoic as just 2 violins and continuo. Peaceful and calm atomosphere all in all. .I feel very uplifted and comforted when continuo plays diatonic ascending line, which is subsequently settled down and responded with descending three notes of upper instruments. I like cadenza part just before the entering of Alto voice and violin trill feels very peaceful and comforting-at least to my personal ears. Probably some of you cannot help being reminded of BWV 53 (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV53.htm) Providing my ears faculty is not far off the wall, I hear it to be with the same key as BWV 53, another singled-out independent Alto Aria-(aside from controversy as to genuine work), i.e. E-dur…. Would anybody who have score like to volunteer speaking about the key of BWV200? Unfortunately, I do not have score nor I succeeded in finding one on the web. I am very curious as to the key. Instrumental arrangement that BWV 53 added viola would be one of the main difference. I'd rather let my humble pen cease here and let the music itself be more eloquent. Meanwhile I know many of you have far better pen than mine to describe the beauty of this gem so will you lend me the one please?
Julian Mincham wrote (December 13, 2008): The key is E major, the same as that for the wonderful fantasia with which BWV 8, 'When, Lord, will I die?' commences. The reaction of most listeners coming across this fine aria is likely to be one of great regret for the almost certain loss of the rest of the work. Dated at 1742 (Dürr p 665) this must have been one of Bach’s last works in this genre and its loss is keenly felt. Even its liturgical function is not certain; Dürr (ibid p 665-6) suggests the Purification and quotes various works which were adapted from other sources for presentation on this day e.g. Cantatas BWV 161, BWV 157 and BWV 158. The text does, however, strike resonances with others of those written or adapted for this day----I confess the Name of the Lord from whom all are blest----death will not rob me of the certainty of His Light. For example a very similar sentiment, though differently expressed, may be found in the bass aria/recitative from Cantata BWV 157. This aria, for alto, two violins and continuo has a quality of mellow assurance often to be found in works from Bach’s last decade. It is built on the ritornello principle with the familiar adaptation of ternary form There is an unmistakable A section ending in the cadence in the dominant key over bars 25-6 a contrasting second section passing through related keys. But there is no proper reprise, merely a few musical echoes of the original ideas. Long notes and melismas on certain key words aside, there is none of the obvious or graphic=20word painting from the earlier works. This is clearly Bach at his most mature and assured.
Douglas Cowling wrote (December 13, 2008): Julian Mincham wrote: < This aria, for alto, two violins and continuo has a quality of mellow assurance often to be found in works from Bachąs last decade. > I assume (and hope) that there is no scholarly dispute about Bach's authorship of this wonderful aria (I was traumatized by the loss of "Schlage Doch" (BWV 53) as a teenager.) The orchestration of strings without viola is an old-fashioned 17^th century configuration that might indicate a Bach arrangement of a pre-existing movement. Are there other solo movements in Bach which have this 2 violins and BC layout? Is there any indication of how Bach performed other composers' cantatas? I'm thinking that this aria may not be an incomplete cantata but a pastiche insertion into someone else's Purification cantata, a work which had the old-fashioned string format. Pure speculation ...
Kim Patrick Clow wrote (December 13, 2008): Douglas Cowling wrote: < Is there any indication of how Bach performed other composers' cantatas? > Yes, Telemann (C.P.E.'s god-father), and Stölzel certainly.
Kim Patrick Clow wrote (December 13, 2008): Sorry Doug asked if we know how Bach performed other composers' cantatas, not if or who ;) I misread, then mistyped. My apologies.
Douglas Cowling wrote (December 13, 2008): Kim Patrick Klow wrote: < Yes, Telemann (C.P.E.'s god-father), and Stölzel certainly. > Did JSB "tinker" with the music or add movements?
Neil Halliday wrote (December 14, 2008): Douglas Cowling wrote: >Are there other solo movements in Bach which have this 2 violins and BC layout?< The penultimate movement of BWV 51 comes immediately to mind.
Douglas Cowling wrote (December 14, 2008): Neil Halliday wrote: < The penultimate movement of BWV 51 comes immediately to mind. > Interestingly, the two violin parts in that movement are marked 'solo' (the tutti strings with viola return for the closing "Alleluia". By coincidence, I was writing program notes today for Cantata #7, "Christ der Herr zum Jordan Kam" and noticed that the tenor aria has two violins marked "concertante" without viola. I can't open the Capella file of the BGA full score of BWV 200. Are there any solo markings on the violin parts of this cantata?
William Hoffman wrote (December 14, 2008): BWV 200: arias w/2 vns., Bc According to Werner Neumann's final edition of Handbuch der Kantaten JSB, 1984, listed in the appendices, arias with 1 or 2 obligatto instruments (2 violins), p. 293: Soprano: BWV 17/3 in E Major, BWV 52/3 in d Minor; Alto, BWV 72/3 in d Minor, BWV 200 in E Major; Tenor; BWV 7/4 in a Minor, BWV 171/2 in A Major, BWV 248IV/6 in d Minor, BWV 249/6 in G Major; Bass, BWV 12/5 in Eb Major, BWV 42/6 in A major; and Tenor-Bass, BWV 125/4 in G Major.
Neil Ha wrote (December 14, 2008): Douglas Cowling wrote: >I can't open the Capella file of the BGA full score of BWV 200. Are thereany solo markings on the violin parts of this cantata?< According to the OCC, only the NBA contains the score of BWV 200, not the BGA. Unfortunately my browser won't work with the the Capella software.
John Pike wrote (December 14, 2008): [To Julian Mincham] I agree. The first time I heard this sadly fragmentary piece of perfection itself was when I bought the Gardiner recording on DG many years ago. I listened to it umpteen times that day.
Thomas Braatz wrote (December 15, 2008): BWV 200 Orchestration Indications Here is what the NBA KB I/28.1 p. 117 indicates that the only evidence is in the form of an autograph score (from which cantata this may have been taken is still completely unknown). This score carries no indications about which voice or which instruments were intended (if the original parts had survived, they would have been clearly marked). Based on the watermark and Bach's handwriting, Kobayashi has determined that this Bach score originated circa 1742, more precisely after May 1742. For this reason February 2, 1742 (Mariae Reinigung) can be given with some reservations and February 2, 1743 with only slightly more confidence. The movement is entitled 'Aria' from which it may be inferred that a solo vocal part is involved. The clef used makes it clear that an alto voice was intended. The similarities between the two obbligato instrument parts would signify that the instruments were of the same type or very similar. Based upon the range of notes employed and certain musical figures typical for string instruments (particularly beginning with m 44), the orchestration of this movement obviously points to the use of violins. Ludwig Landshoff, who used this manuscript source in 1935 for the first edition of it as Edition Peters (Nr. 4209), indicated that it came from a private owner in Berlin. who found it among his father's possessions after the latter hat died in 1924. Nothing is known about its earlier provenance. It later belonged to Mrs. Franz Osborn (Lady Hutchinson, who had remarried) and subsequently her son, Christopher Osborn, sold it to the SBB in 1979.
William Hoffman wrote (December 15, 2008): BWV 200: Fugitive Notes Purification Cantatas:
Date(Cy.)	BWV	Title(Key)	Type
?2/2/16	BWV 158(a)	Welt, ade! ich bin deine müde(G,e)	SB solo
1724-35	[BWV Anh. 157]	Ich hab Lust zu Scheiden(G) TelemannVWV 1:833,4	(Chs.)
2/2/24(1)	BWV 83	Erfreute Zeit im neuen Bunde(F)	ATB solo
2/2/25(2)	BWV 125	Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin(e)	Cle. Chs.
2/2/26(a3)	[JLB 9]	Mache dich auf, werde Licht(C)	J.L. Bach
2/2/27	(BWV 83)	Erfreute Zeit im neuen Bunde	repeat
and(3)	BWV 82	Ich habe genung, ich ...Heiland(c)	B solo
?2/2/28(3a)	BWV 157	Ich lasse dich nicht, du segnest mich(b,D)	TB solo
2/2/29(4)	deest(P16)	Herr, nun lässest du deinen Diener	Text Only
?1730-31	(BWV 82)	Ich habe genung, ich habe die Heiland	repeat
2/2/35	(BWV 82a)	Ich habe genung, ich ...Heiland repeat(in e)	S solo
and(5)	BWV 161	Komm, du süße Todesstunde(C-a)	chorus, adapt
1736-39	(BWV 125)	Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin	repeat
?c1742(5)	BWV 200	Bekennen will ich seinem Namen(E)	fragment
?1746-47	(BWV 82)	Ich habe genung, ich habe die Heiland	repeat
?1747-48	(BWV 82b)	Ich habe genung, ich ...Heiland	repeat(in c)A solo
According to my calculations, Bach was more active on this church date than any other. There are as many 10 cantatas (or portions) presented on at least 12 dates, including two double bills in 1727 and 1735. Bach originally composed perhaps five cantatas for this feast day, including the first in Weimar: BWV 158(a), BWV 83, BWV 125, and BWV 82. Bach made adaptations from two cantatas, BWV 157, originally a funeral work, Weimar Cantata BWV 161, originally for the 16^th Sunday after Trinity, for the 1735 Candelmas double bill. Bach repeated his three repertory works: BWV 82 at least four times, and BWV 83 and BWV 125 at least once. Bach also presented the cantatas of composers Telemann (BWV Anh. 157, Bach autograph harpsichord part ? 1723-35) and J.L. Bach. Only the Picander 1729 text, "Herr, nun lässest du deinen Diener in Frieden fahren" (Lord, now let thy servant depart in peace), survives, including the related chorale "Mit Fried und Freud," possibly BWV 382. The-well regulated Bach not only presented Purification works consistently throughout his Leipzig tenure, but also adapted them for special usage. Giving weight to Doug Cowling's speculation about a possible pastiche, there are at least three other works, BWV 27/6, BWV 145 and BWV 231, with insertions of other composers. It also should be noted that Bach's Purification cantatas are generally intimate and simple, usually using a five-movement symmetry, alternating arias (or chorales) and recitatives. It would be easy to substitute or add an aria. All of this, of course is related in context to the significance of the Purification observance, especially its Simeon Canticle. I will pursue the Calov Bible Commentary and Günther Stiller's book, unless it has been done as part of the BCW discussion of the other Candelmas cantatas.
Douglas Cowling wrote (December 15, 2008): [To William Hoffman, regarding Fugitive Notes] What an amazing lineup of works for a secondary weekday feast day. What made Bach return to the theme of holy death? He wasn't drawn to the Marian motifs in the readings. I suppose he is following the shift at the Reformation to the feast being an admonition to godly living rather than an celebration of the interior theological privileges of the Virgin. By the way, did the feast day (Feb 2) have any significance in the civic calendar?
Terejia wrote (December 15, 2008): Neil Halliday wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29470 < The penultimate movement of BWV 51 comes immediately to mind. > Also, Tenor aria in Christmas Oratorio Part 4?
Terejia wrote (December 15, 2008): Julian Mincham wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29463 < The key is E major, the same as that for the wonderful fantasia with which BWVÂ 8, 'When, Lord, will I die?' commences. > Thank you, I'm glad to confirm. Also thank you for the reminding us another example. Hmmm...ok, the same key as Violin Sonata No.3, too... (..) < This aria, for alto, two violins and continuo has a quality of mellow assurance often to be found in works from Bach's last decade. It is built on the ritornello principle with theÂ familiar adaptation of ternary form There is an unmistakable A section ending in the cadence in the dominant key over bars 25-6 a contrasting second section passing through related keys. But there is no proper reprise, merely a few musical echoes of the original ideas. Long notes and melismas on certain key words aside, there is none of the obvious or graphic=20word painting from the earlier works. This is clearly Bach at his most mature and assured. > Thank you for this interesting commentar. I seem to have a lot of work to explore deeper into Bach's music in the fut.
John Pike wrote (December 15, 2008): [To Terejia] It's also the key of solo violin partita no. 3 and of one of the violin concertos, both magnificent pieces.
Julian Mincham wrote (December 15, 2008): Terejia wrote: < Thank you for this interesting commentar. I seem to have a lot of work to explore deeper into Bach's music in the future. > Terejia? We all do!? No matter how well you think you know a piece of Bach there is always something new to find in it! I have found this to be true from the perspectives of the listener, researcher and performer. This is, perhaps, the main reason why we keep returning to his music.
Julian Mincham wrote (December 15, 2008): [To John Pike] And several opening choruses from the cantatas, one flute sonata, the last French suite and one each of the violin and keyboard concerti. Four sharps (and four flats) were the most extreme keys generally used by Bach for the setting of works, excluding, of course , the WTC. And he would modulate into the most extreme keys in the course of certain movements for dramatic effect or for extreme chromatic contrasts of harmony. I have always been rather intrigued by Bach's use of E major though, wondering what, if anything, he might have associated with a key which he used for both the most elegiac and extrovert of moods.
Terejia wrote (December 15, 2008): Douglas Cowling wrote [Fugitive Notes]: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29484 (..) < What made Bach return to the theme of holy death? > (..) Doug, I suppose your question is very profound and well worth exploring into. I suspect it might be something essential in Bach's cantata, if not that 100% of his music is related to the theme.
Terejia wrote (December 15, 2008): Categorizing BWV 200 discussion by points so far It's Monday night. I wasn't able to access to the computer yesterday but I'm glad to see lively discussions going on. As I read along, I quickly categorized the posts as followings so far. Orchestration of BWV 200 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29464 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29481 2 violins and bass continuo accompanies vocal solo http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29470 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29471 list of obligato solo instrument and solo vocal arias http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29473 if Bach performed another composerfs cantata http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29464 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29465 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29466 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29467 If it is fragmentary part of the cantata with the rest of the movement lost http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29475 I hope it could be of some use- may be for discussion leader on 3^rd run?
Jean Laaninen wrote (December 16, 2008): OT: Capella Reader in Vista Someone had mentioned in a recent post having difficulty using Capella Reader with his browser. I installed Capella Reader into Windows Vista Home Premium this morning, and at first it would not work right because the program did not follow the directions given on the capella site. However, by right clicking, and then browsing for Capella.exe, and right clicking on it, the file for BWV 200 loaded perfectly. I bring this to the attention of anyone having trouble with the program because there is so often a work-around.
Douglas Cowling wrote (December 16, 2008): Jean Laaninen wrote [Capella]: < I bring this to the attention of anyone having trouble with the program because there is so often a work-around. > What about MACs? (grin)
Jean Laaninen wrote (December 16, 2008): [To Terejia] It seems to me that this refers to the Luke text for the day. Simeon has seen salvation (perhaps equivalent to a holy death here), and Bach seems to be completing this number based on the text.
Jean Laaninen wrote (December 16, 2008): Julian Mincham wrote: < I have always been rather intrigued by Bach's use of E major though, wondering what, if anything, he might have associated with a key which he used for both the most elegiac and extrovert of moods. > The key is interesting here, but also Bach's rhythmic patterns. Having a chance to look at the lovely Capella score was informative for me. Notable to my mind is the use of a dotted eighth note followed by a sixteenth note at or near the end of bars as well as in a few other places, and phrasings moved from part to part for rhythmic variety using this short rhythmic pattern. This is catchy, and perhaps might be seen as a technique for the extroversion mentioned by Julian. On meines Lebens Licht, this rhythmic pattern is sequential, perhaps lending agreement to Deurr's point of view that Jesus as the Lord of all people's is the most recognizable focus of this work, rather than the focus on the redemptive death (loosely paraphrased from Deurr, p. 665). A lovely, short and interesting work.
Jean Laaninen wrote (December 16, 2008): [To Douglas Cowling, regarding Capella] So, so, sad...my MAC died when the power company was working on the lines last summer. It was one of the first eMACs, with enhancements, but eight years was enough apparently. And when replacement time came I couldn't afford the MAC I wanted so I got an HP with Vista. If I had a MAC here I could experiment, but [?] at this point I'm of little use in the MAC category. Maybe the Capella site has a tech area that could be accessed...my only suggestion. Sorry.
Ed Myskowski wrote (December 16, 2008): Doug Cowling wrote: >By the way, did the feast day (Feb 2) have any significance in the civic calendar?< From a site documenting Catholic traditions, and with a welcome sense of humor: www.fisheaters.com <Candlemas Day is also known as <Groundhog Day> in America, the day when, if the groundhog sees his shadow, there'll be 6 more weeks of Winter. All Europeans have a similar belief about how Candlemas weather portends the length of winter. The English have a saying, <If Candlemas Day be bright and clear, there'll be two winters in the year.> ... German immigrants to the United States brought their Candlemas traditions with them when they settled in Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania. Each year, a great to-do is made over the town's official groundhog, "Punxsutawney Phil," emerging from his den to predict the weather, said prediction being broadcast by all the major media in the U.S.A.> [end quote] Not exactly a civic function, but I had no idea of the German origin of Groundhog Day. From the same site, the official French Candlemas dish is the Crepe Suzette (recipe included). And finally: <In Poland, the candles brought from home to be blessed are decorated with symbols and ribbons. There, the custom is to let a blessed candle burn all night tonight before an icon of Our Lady who, when the world still had forests, was relied upon to keep the wolves away during these cold nights. ... This tradition gives Candlemas its Polish name -- <Matka Boska Gromniczna,> or <Mother of God of the Blessed Thunder Candle.> [end quote]
Terejia wrote (December 16, 2008): Raison d'etre of BCML? Mincham wrote: < Terejia? We all do!? No matter how well you think you know a piece of Bach there is always something new to find in it! I have found this to be true from the perspectives of the listener, researcher and performer. This is, perhaps, the main reason why we keep returning to his music. > What Julian said here may be the raison d'etre of this list, at least in my own understandings. Bach's music has variety of aspects and I appreciate multiple viewpoints of subscribers. IMHO, probably what we Bach lovers all share in common would be upward vector, aspiration toward high things.
Terejia wrote (December 16, 2008): Jean Laaninen wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29495 < The key is interesting here, but also Bach's rhythmic patterns. Having a > chance to look at the lovely Capella score was informative for me. Notable > to my mind is the use of a dotted eighth note followed by a sixteenth note at or near the end of bars as well as in a few other places, and phrasings moved from part to part for rhythmic variety using this short rhythmic pattern. > Thank you, Jean, for calling our attention on rhythmic pattern. (..) < A lovely, short and interesting work. > Indeed. We seem to have wide variety of valid approaches to Bach's masterpiece. My approach tends to be instrumental, abstract these days,partly because Bach seems to have been instrumentally oriented composer in that his work seems to show instrumental construction in the front (at least to me...) and his vocal part often sounds to be too cruel for singers-other composers like Haendel sounds more natural for singing. I do have some experience in participating chorus dealing with Bach, Händel, Monteverdi, Parestlina masterpieces. http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29487 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29489 John's referring to other Bach works in E-dur and Julian's comment on E-dur is very insightful viewpoint.
Ed Myskowski wrote (December 16, 2008): BWV 200 - Candlemas Yesterday I posted a few comments retrieved from the site www.fisheaters.com. I think the information was interesting and supportable, but I did not check it further. I wish to emphasize that the site does not represent my spiritual position, and I do not believe it is endorsed by the Roman Catholic Church. While I found the site name (and some of the Candlemas material) humorous, I now realize that there are areas of the site which may be offensive to BCML participants. Apologies for any misunderstanding, I did not intend to endorse the site as anything but a source of info re Purification/Candlemas traditions. I will follow up on the quality of the Crepes Suzette recipe.
Terejia wrote (December 17, 2008): Cantata text and some personal list thoughts (was: BWV 200 - Candlemas) Ed Myskowski wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29501 > Yesterday I posted a few comments retrieved from the site www.fisheaters.com. I think the information was interesting and supportable, but I did not check it further.< I reread your post and I find it to be interesting. I haven't read the link. I find it to be civic in nature and related to Maria's Purification. I am a Catholic myself but I am quite illiterate on this celebration so have no ability to respond. As simple as that. > I wish to emphasize that the site does not represent my spiritual position, and I do not believe it is endorsed by the Roman Catholic Church. While I found the site name (and some of the Candlemas material) humorous, I now realize that there are areas of the site which may be offensive to BCML participants. Apologies for any misunderstanding, I did not intend to endorse the site as anything but a source of info re Purification/Candlemas traditions.> (..) Thank you, Ed, for your usual kind consideration toward others' sentiment. I don't find it to be offensive at all nor I could think of anyway how it could be offensive to another but in case it SHOULD, which I strongly doubt, I would write even more offensive thing : WARNING IN ADVANCE ! Unlike instrumental works, text/liberetto is an essential part of vocal music and when it comes to sacred cantatas/mottets/oratorios, etc, we cannot avoid referring to the text and theology to some degree in order for our approach to be whole pictured although I strongly skeptical of the correctness of approach which is more than, say, 85% on text/theology. This is a non-religious list and for me being non-religious means not imposing particular belief system upon others. It also could mean that refrain from overreactive against particular system. Non-religious could be a synonym to liberal. In other words, being adult toward each other and respect each other regardless of one's belief system including non-religious attitude. My boss, who is a member of Buddhism sect Soka Gakkai, which is a rather hostile sect against Christianity, is going to celebrate Christmas with his non-Christian friends. He is quite an adult. Of course there may well be a criticism that being liberal/being an adult is synonym of "lurkwater". To the best of my understanding, this list prefers being liberal to being pious/faithful. In Japan, Christmas is a rather civil event and celebrated by Christians and non-Christians alike, with each on its own way. A friend of mine, who lives in St. Louis and who likes stocktrading, said stockmarket closes on Christmas Day. Now, I learned that this list experienced trauma about Merry Christmas greetings. Even though I wasn't a member at that time and I myself didn't experience the trauma, it IS very heartbreaking to me. How about, if you allow me to say my humble opinion, not being overreactive against Merry Christmas, which is commonly accepted civil seasonal greeting even in a non-religious country like Japan? In Japan, in many occasions, I have to conform to the custom of another religions, esp. Shinto and Buddhism. Since Christmas has a widespread civil aspect (as well as sacred aspects for those who take it that way), I don't think it would be too unfair to request non-Christians not to be overreactive against Merry Christmas, when it has no imposing flavour behind the simple message. Sometimes, it matters to me more with what motivation/with what flavour the particular message was sent rather than the word of the message itself. Merely my personal opinion and feelings.
Douglas Cowling wrote (December 17, 2008): Terejia wrote: < Unlike instrumental works, text/liberetto is an essential part of vocal music and when it comes to sacred cantatas/mottets/oratorios, etc, we cannot avoid referring to the text and theology to some degree in order for our approach to be whole pictured although I strongly skeptical of the correctness of approach which is more than, say, 85% on text/theology. > Thankfully, this forum no longer has a firestorm when Bach's theological and liturgical context is discussed. My original question was really why Feb 2, the Purification, was such a big occasion in Bach's Leipzig. If Bach had gone to Dresden, he would have seen the Catholic chapel royal engaged in a major celebration which featured a procession with hundreds of candles ("To be a light to lighten the Gentiles"). Luther abolished the candle procession, and the feast day should have atrophied back to a simple commemoration in the Lutheran calendar, yet in Leipzig the day was one of the very few saint's days which required the composition of a cantata. Bach certainly went the extra mile to write smusic. Why Purification and not All Saints on Nov 1? We've noted that St. Michael (Sept 29) was connected to a city fair. Was Purification connected with an event in the civic calendar? The beginning of a school term? An election? A quarter day for fiscal or legal terms? It was clearly a holiday when secular work was suspended and there was an expectation of attendance in church.
Julian Mincham wrote (December 17, 2008): Douglas Cowling wrote: < Thankfully, this forum no longer has a firestorm when Bach's theological and liturgical context is discussed. > Hopefully to remain so. Though I wouldn't put any money on it!
Terejia wrote (December 18, 2008): Douglas Cowling wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29503 (..) < My original question was really why Feb 2, the Purification, was such a big occasion in Bach's Leipzig. If Bach had > gone to Dresden, he would have seen the Catholic chapel royal engaged in a major celebration which featured a procession with hundreds of candles ("To > be a light to lighten the Gentiles"). Luther abolished the candle procession, and the feast day should have atrophied back to a simple commemoration in the Lutheran calendar, yet in Leipzig the day was one of the very few saint's days which required the composition of a cantata. Bach certainly went the extra mile to write superlative music. Why Purification and not All Saints on Nov 1? > (..) Interesting questions. I 'm not up to answer these questions but it would add another deeper insights into our appreciation, if these are answered. In Orgelbuechlein, there is an organ piece whose thema is Purification of Maria.
Terejia wrote (December 18, 2008): Julian Mincham wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29504 < Thankfully, this forum no longer has a firestorm when Bach's theological and liturgical context is discussed. Hopefully to remain so. > (..) Yes, indeed! This list seems to have "grown up" , so to speak??
Jean Laaninen wrote (December 18, 2008): Terejia wrote < Interesting questions. I 'm not up to answer these questions but it would add another deeper insights into our appreciation, if these are answered. In Orgelbuechlein, there is an organ piece whose thema is Purification of Maria. > In a previous post when these questions arose, I brought forth some information after consulting my 100 year old Dad. Dad has his own views as a Pietist, but I thought his explanation made sense. He commented that even with the changes Luther instituted, popular festivals were not always disregarded, and his view was that Luther was not rigid on some of these issues so the popular practices could easily have continued. This isn't strictly academic stuff here, but I am also quite sure that deep, meaningful answers are not going to be possible. Luther changed the direction of the church, and had both his enemies and his friends. But there were also a good many other pastors who might have had differing views and continued celebrations. Perhaps in the same way Terejia ascribes Christmas as a civic holiday in Japan, Germany may have had a carry-over that was a time of communal celebration, and Bach may have been inspired. An interesting aside to my mind is that I've encountered Eastern Orthodox scholars who believe the lack of regard for Mary under Luther's system may well have damaged the status of women. Bach, who was married and had many children may have had an appreciation of Mary that exceeded some standards of the day, and felt that some glorious music befitting the ancient festival was in order. This is speculation, but perhaps some of it has some merit. When I cannot know exactly what the composer might have been thinking since history doesn't record all, I just enjoy the piece for what it is...and that's really enough, especially when we are talking Bach.
Terejia wrote (December 18, 2008): On Maria's Purification Festival (text topic on BWV 200) Jean Laaninen wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29507 < In a previous post when these questions arose, I brought forth some information after consulting my 100 year old Dad. > Oh, for whatever reasons I may have missed it, sorry, mea maxima culpa. (..) < Perhaps in the same way Terejia ascribes Christmas as a civic holiday in Japan, Germany may have had a carry-over that was a time of communal celebration, and Bach may have been inspired. > Even though I'm in no position of judging the academic correctness of the statement, it makes much sense to me. (..) < When I cannot know exactly what the composer might have been thinking since history doesn't record all, I just enjoy the piece for what it is...and that's really enough, especially when we are talking Bach. > I definitely concur with you on this. While information is useful, valuable, greatly helpful to assist appreciation, nothing could possibly substitute for music itself. Having said that I also realize appreciating music itself per se is much easier said than done in my case.
Ed Myskowski wrote (December 18, 2008): OT? BWV 200 - Candlemas Jean Laaninen wrote: >Luther changed the direction of the church, and had both his enemies and his friends.< Or from the Catholic perspective, Luther simply started his own church? Thanks to Doug for pointing out the attempted elimination of Candlemas, by Luther. I believe it was me who incorrectly started the association of BWV 210 with this thread, BWV 200 looks more appropriate. In order to avoid controversy, I omitted some data I enjoy, re Candlemas. Not especially relevant to Bach and Luther, but perhaps of interest to others, nonetheless. In fact, the celebration of Feb. 2 predates both Luther and Christ, as the festival of the Roman goddess Februar, and likely even older pagan traditions. It has always been a <feminine> day, associated with increasing light, and the beginning of the end of winter (or not quite yet, depending on the groundhog or his prdecessors). It is one of the eight major pagan festival days, which are important in every religion, and which were adopted in various ways by Christianity. The most familiar associations are Winter Solstice - Christmas, and Spring Equinox - Easter. Candlemas is the quarter-point day falling between those two. In very general terms, the four major calendar days, two solstices and two equinoxes are masculine, and the intermediate quarter-point days are feminine. I will point out calendar relations which interest me, as we spend the coming years discussing the Bach cantatas in relation to the Lutheran liturgical calendar. Note that the connection between Christmas and the solstice is very direct, while that between Easter and the equinox became exceedingly complex, in order to distinguish Christianity from all other religions, especially Judaism. We have discussed that at some length and interest (at least to me). In the process of establishing the calculation of the date for Easter, the already existing fragmentation of Christianity became cast in stone, a millenium and more prior to Luther.
William Hoffman wrote (December 19, 2008): BWV 200: Luther, Catholics, Bach & Canticles Re.: Martin Luther. Embattled as he was, Luther had his bad days. He railed not only against the Counter-Reformationists -- "hoards of devils (that) fill the land" ("Ein feste Burg" )-- he also opposed the peasants in their revolt against authoriand expected Jews to see the light and become Christian. I don't think Bach was a "Mr. Smooth-It-Away", he simply found opportunities to celebrate the positive ideas fostered by Luther. I am doing a study of OT & NT Canticles and Bach's use of them, a Catholic concept related to Vespers -- spirtually and musically enriching, and reconciling. Stay tuned!
Jean Laaninen wrote (December 19, 2008): [To Ed Myskowski] A fine textbook titled Mysteries of the Middle Ages is a recent acquisition here. The author is Thomas Cahill. On pages 58-59 the history of the incorporation of pagan festivities with Christian events during the reign of Pope Gregory, who was known for his charitable and missionary work is documented. The well known Augustine was one of his missionaries, sent to the British Isles. Gregory had an interesting perspective in that he told Augustine not to prefer Roman customs to English--rather, to retain what was good about pagan customs in order to make the missionary message more palitable. "Nor was there any need to outlaw the old festivals or the customs that accompanied them. Just baptize them a bit." Herein we probably have the historical context, in my view, for the maintainance of those questionable festivals which Luther was not able to totally diminish--nor, do I suppose he even thought it always wise. Change is a real struggle for many people. Additionally, some of my European family and friends, who are agnostic rather than Christian, still name seasons of the year in liturgical terms--this is especially true where a state church exists. I was fascinated when I asked our cousin Helvi when her dance classes would resume, and she said, after Epiphany. So in light of history and the carry-over even today with defining times of the year, I imagine it is no stretch to think Bach followed the customs of his day.
Ed Myskowski wrote (December 19, 2008): Will wrote: >Stay tuned!< I can only hope the heading <Fugitive Notes> will continue, Whittaker must be smiling! Fugaciously yours (and Aloha for the Solstice season), Ed Myskowski
Peter Smaill wrote (December 19, 2008): [To Douglas Cowling] Gunther Stiller has a lot to say on the rich liturgical life of Leipzig, specifically: "These circumstances in any case demonstrate th prominence still given to the three Marian festivals, which since the Reformation were celebrated as festivals of Christ. This may also be clearly seen from Johann Sebastian Bach's rather significant Cantatas for these festivals, e.g. BWV 1 and BWV 147. At any rate , the feast of the Annunciation was so highly regarded that it was always observed on Palm Sunday if it fell on Maundy Thursday, Good Friday or Easter." Stiller, quoting Rost, notes that in 1724 the feast day of the apostle James was observed in Leipzig (25 July) which is odd in that Luther loathed the Book of James because of its support of the doctrine of Justification by works.
Douglas Cowling wrote (December 19, 2008): Peter Smaill wrote: < Stiller, quoting Rost, notes that in 1724 the feast day of the apostle James was observed in Leipzig (25 July) which is odd in that Luther loathed the Book of James because of its support of the doctrine of Justification by works. > "Throw Jimmy on the fire" was Luther's quip.
Ed Myskowski wrote (December 19, 2008): >"Throw Jimmy on the fire" was Luther's quip.< I suspected that Doug might be pulling our collective leg (that is, having a joke at our expense), so I googled the phrase in quotes, and received exactly one hit. a site called <theology and a pub>, which is in agreement with Dougs comments. I am home, at last.
Terejia wrote (December 19, 2008): Ed Myskowski wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29509 (..) > Note that the connection between Christmas and the solstice is very direct,< Yes, I've been aware of that. I am by no means calendar specialist but personally it makes perfect sense to me we have a big celebration when we have the longest night in the year to have a hope for light- for those living in northern hemisphere. There seems to be a speculation that actual day when Christ was born may not have been December 25th. They say that Nazareth is too cold for sheperds to be watching outside in winter. If so, probably Christmas Day was determined so that it could serve best for Roman churches in northern hemisphere. < while that (Terejia insert commentar : 'that' refers to connection) between Easter and the equinox became exceedingly complex, in order to distinguish Christianity from all other religions, especially Judaism. We have discussed that at some length and interest (at least to me). In the process of establishing the calculation of the date for Easter, the already existing fragmentation of Christianity became cast in stone, a millenium and more prior to Luther. > In Japan, Easter is much less commonly celebrated than Christmas. However, Easter is also the day when New York stockmarket closes. So a friend of mine who likes stocktrading and who is non-relisioug concerns to know the date of Easter. I've heard that Eastern egg is originated from entirely different root than Christian Churches. Also I've learned that Tannenbaum, which is commonly associated with Christmas, has nothing to do with Christmas and implanted from Germanic people's custom. I suspect many parts of major events in Christian church liturgy which are considered to be indispensable are not really originated in primary Christian church but were actually taken from folk customs adopted by church for convenience or for whatsoever. Whatever the history might be, in today's world, church calendar/events is as it is, as culture. Cultural aspect of church is beautiful, although it is not always perfect. To go back to Bach to some degree, the circumstances of music is so much different today. Bach wouldn't have imagined that his music could be enjoyed in all over the world. Without change of the world, we would not be enjoying Bach as we are today.Afterall, we live in today's world.
Terejia wrote (December 19, 2008): [To Jean Laaninen] Oh, unwittingly, I wrote my previous message before reading your post but I learned the same on my canonical study before being baptized in Catholic. For me personally, aethetic has independent elements from any time, location, culture surrounded the musician/artist (radical speculation /imagination: Bach would have been still great composer of sacred music had he be born and grown up in SokaGakkai culture ) but there might be other elements in aethetic which are inspired by particular time, location, occasion, culture, etc-there may well be part of Bach that wouldn't have been born without German Lurtherian church, culture around 1685~.
Kim Patrick Clow wrote (December 19, 2008): Terejia wrote: < There seems to be a speculation that actual day when Christ was born may not have been December 25th. They say that Nazareth is too cold for sheperds to be watching outside in winter. If so, probably Christmas Day was determined so that it could serve best for Roman churches in northern hemisphere. > That's purely speculation and a lot that particular theory is based on current climatology. The Middle East and Northern Africa had a much different climate 2000 years ago, never mind weather patterns can have a great deal of variables happening year to year (e.g. snow in Las Vegas Nevada just a few days ago). There are some interesting discoveries involving archaeology and a lot of research, entirely too lengthy to get into here, but I will provide some links at the end of my reply. Dr. Michael Molnar has discovered gold coins from Antioch dated to 6 B.C. By using ancient astrological sources from the per(that explain the symbolisms on coins), and using astrological charts and combining that with the story as it's presented in the New Testament, ad using computer models of the astronomical events (essentially running them backwards) Dr. Molnar determined there were three times when such a "star" would have appeared: April 17 (when the "star" appeared in the "east"), August 23, and drumroll December 18^th for several days (when the account in the gospels describe "stood over"). Dr. Robert Drier (a professor of archaeology American Egyptologist specializing in paleopathology) has a television special on TLC (The Learning Channel) as part of his Mummy Series dealing with the magi and the star of Bethlehem called "The 3 Kings." It's fascinating stuff: Drier uses iconography, art work and historical accounts to discuss the Magi. After looking at many legends about the magi and the surviving evidence, Drier finds compelling evidence suggests that the remains of the 3 magi are in fact in Cologne Cathedral today, which he points out is the only cathedral in the world that has uses a star on it's crown, and not a cross or crucifix. There is an extensive segement on this show also discussing Dr. Molnar's pinning down of the astronomical event of the star of Bethlehem. Drier's program is available on DVD from TLC I believe. Some links: http://www.liu.edu/cwis/CWP/pr/press/2004/122.html (press release from Long Island University about Dr. Brier's findings. http://www.eclipse.net/~molnar/index.html Dr. Molnar's research about the Star of Bethlehem
Terejia wrote (December 19, 2008): William Hoffman wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29514 (..) < I don't think Bach was a "Mr. Smooth-It-Away", he simply found opportunities to celebrate the positive ideas fostered by Luther. > I simply like the idea that Bach took the benefit of Lutherian church culture in order to amplify the aethetic effect of his music. (..) >> Stay tuned!<< Indeed ! Great to see harmonious and fruitful discussions going on.
Douglas Cowling wrote (December 19, 2008): OT? BWV 200 - Bach & History Kim Patrick Clow wrote: < There are some interesting discoveries involving archaeology and a lot of research, entirely too lengthy to get into here, but I will provide some links at the end of my reply. > I think we need to be cautious in bringing popular archaeology and scholarship into the mix. Most mainstream scholars would agree that the historicity of the Infancy narratives in Matthew and Luke are irretrievable to investigation. Even the New Testament writers vary in their approach to the questions. Neither Mark nor John have birth narratives, and the letters of Paul, the earliest strata of the New Testament, merely comment that Jesus was "born of a woman." The best modern commentary is "The Birth of the Messiah" by Raymond Brown (Doubleday, 1977). He later wrote "The Death of the Messiah" on the Passion narratives. Ironically, it is modern scholars' skepticism of the historicity which brings us closer to Bach. Brown assembles a vast background of allusions to OT passages. When I was reading "The Birth of the Messiah", I was struck how many correspondences there were to the libretto of the "Christmas Oratorio." Scriptural allusions which most listeners do not catch are certainly there in Bach's text. Bach never doubted the historicity of the narratives but his real creative interest is in the theology. If theology rather than history is the focus, we can make some sense of Bach's seemingly "undramatic" handling of narrative in the oratorios and Passions. The constant interruption of the scene of the Shepherds and Angels in Part II is a classic instance.
Terejia wrote (December 19, 2008): OT? circumstantial affairs on Christmas Kim Patrick Clow wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29524 (..) < Dr. Michael Molnar has discovered gold coins from Antioch dated to 6 B.C. By using ancient astrological sources from the period (that explain the symbolisms on coins), and using astrological charts and combining that with the story as it's presented in the New Testament, ad using computer models of the astronomical events (essentially running them backwards) Dr. Molnar determined there were three times when such a "star" would have appeared: April 17 (when the "star" appeared in the "east"), August 23, and drumroll December 18^th for several days (when the account in the gospels describe "stood over").> Interesting! Somehow, your account reminds me of oboe accompanyment of Bass aria in Part 5 Christmas Oratorio. It is very personal feeling but I feel as if oboe were depicting star lightening the darkest part of mind in that aria. I feel oboe in general is special in terms of aethetics- of course so are other istruments and voices... Also, I vaguely feel that the use/aethetic purpose of oboe is somehow different between Bach and Mozart. I cannot say exactly how, currently. < Drier uses iconography, art work and historical accounts to discuss the Magi. After looking at many legends about the magi and the surviving evidence, Drier finds compelling evidence suggests that the remains of the 3 magi are in fact in Cologne Cathedral today, which he points out is the only cathedral in the world that has uses a star on it's crown, and not a cross or crucifix. > (..) It's really beautiful, be it academically correct or not(which I am in no capacity to judge), it is enriching and inspiring. Thank you for contribution.
Kim Patrick Clow wrote (December 19, 2008): Douglas Cowling wrote: < I think we need to be cautious in bringing popular archaeology and scholarship into the mix. Most mainstream scholars would agree that the historicity of the Infancy narratives in Matthew and Luke are irretrievable to investigation. Even the New Testament writers vary in their approach to the questions. Neither Mark nor John have birth narratives, and the letters of Paul, the earliest strata of the New Testament, merely comment that Jesus was "born of a woman." > But the thing is, both researchers aren't making any claims about the historical nature of the birth accounts, rather they are looking at the context of the period and explaining the symbolism used in astrology as found on real objects, and astronomical computer models, then trying to understand that context, as it's presented in the gospels. There was a astrological event that DID occur in 6 B.C. Drier looks at the calenders used and explains the mixup about that too. Sure it's speculative, but it's informed speculation. The same thing could be said about the crucifixion and passion accounts in the New Testament too-- there's a great deal of confusion about what happened specifically, all the Gospels vary on details, but there are archalogical findings that tend to support some elements of it. Remember, some of the most die hard New Testament form critics of the New Testament didn't believe there were any historical figures in any of the accounts, but archaelogy has a way of proving scholar's assumptions wrong. < The best modern commentary is "The Birth of the Messiah" by Raymond Brown (Doubleday, 1977). He later wrote "The Death of the Messiah" on the Passion narratives. > Yep. Great reseacher, have read everything he wrote and one of my college professors was a student of Brown's. But that doesn't change the fact anything form critics write about the New Testament isn't any more speculative than what Bob Drier has done. Merry Christmas :-)
Douglas Cowling wrote (December 19, 2008): Kim Patrick Clow wrote: < Yep. Great reseacher, have read everything he wrote and one of my college professors was a student of Brown's. But that doesn't change the fact anything form critics write about the New Testament isn't any more speculative than what Bob Drier has done. > Grin. I don't realagree. Most modern archaeologists of ancient Israel/Palestine resist the label of "biblical archaeologist", and dissociate themselves from the notion that they are searching for "proofs" of the biblical narratives. In some cases, there are spectacular archaelogical finds: a stone inscription with the name of Pilate. In many others, however, there is a popular rush to judgment: the controversy over the supposed ossuary of James. The same impulse can be seen in scientific studies of the astronomy of the ancient period by astronomers whose science is impeccable but who don't have the biblical expertise. Even PBS falls victim to these tempting "proofs." At the same time, there are more sophisticated treatments of the scholarly questions: "From Jesus to Christ" was an excellent, if somewhat provocative, examination of the early Christian period. To get back to Bach ... The 18th century saw the explosion of much modern biblical criticism: for example, the recognition that there were multiple authors of Isaiah. It would be interesting to know if the new scholarship was active at Leipzig and whether Bach had any contact with these academics.
Ed Myskowski wrote (December 19, 2008): Kim Patrick Clow wrote: >Dr. Michael Molnar has discovered gold coins from Antioch dated to 6 B.C.< I am curious as to the method used for dating, with that precision. Or are the coins stamped with the date (6 BC)?
Jean Laaninen wrote (December 19, 2008): [To Trejia] I have no argument regarding the aesthetics of a work. But in response to why Bach would have chosen to do something special I think there is a combination of cultural patterns and the darkest time of the year. Scandinavians still celebrate the Santa Lucia event in Lutheran communities in America in December -- more of the light in darkness pattern. And I guess for me, having grown up with Bach and festive and enriching traditions connected to his music, the aesthetic, the text and the cultural/historical aspect combine richly. However, as a singer, I am a text first thinker, following along into the instrumental aspects regarding the cantatas. During the years some time ago as an organist, I often found elements of chorales or techniques of previous works incorporated in the organ works pleasing or depressing or hopeful--more the aesthetic aspect, and made appropriate choices of what material to use based on the church year. But I think it is difficult to spell out what aesthetics actually comprises. This probably differs some from person to person. As you use the term aesthetics, I'd be interested in your definition of the word. As a person who took my singing training further than my playing, I find my tendency now is to look first at a work, almost from the business aspect of how it might have been used, and then go on to study the structural elements to see how Bach carries out a given story. Or, if I am going to learn and record something then I think additionally in those terms.
Kim Patrick Clow wrote (December 19, 2008): Douglas Cowling wrote: < Grin. I don't really agree. Most modern archaeologists of ancient Israel/Palestine resist the label of "biblical archaeologist", and dissociate themselves from the notion that they are searching for "proofs" > of the biblical narratives. > Nice strawmen. William G. Dever is referenced in the press as a "Biblical archaeologist" but it's not a title he would call himself and certainly doesn't reflect on the quality of his work; and please show me where either one of the two people I cited in my first post made such claims. < In some cases, there are spectacular archaelogical finds: a stone inscription with the name of Pilate. > I think the list is a lot longer than just finding Pilate's name inscribed. The most recent and exciting find was the discovery of Herod's tomb. Another one is the discovery of a 8^th or 9^th century artifact that mentions the "House of David." But many form critics of the Bible just 100 years ago claimed all of these historial figures never existed. < In many others, however, there is a popular rush to judgment: the controversy over the supposed ossuary of James. > A popular rush to judgement? In the specific case you cite: a claim was made by Israeli antiquities dealer Oded Golan, who he said "discovered" James's ossuary (the brother of Jesus or cousin if you're Roman Cathoic)--that claim that was later debunked by experts. The popular rush as you call it was made by the press, not anyone within the field of archaeology itself. < The same impulse can be seen in scientific studies of the astronomy of the ancient period by astronomers whose science is impeccable but who don't have the biblical expertise. > What you really mean, they have a different take on the scientific evidence. grin If specialists are making claims based on science, and making statements about that only, who cares if they have biblical expertise? By way of example: let's say the remains under the altar of St. Peter's Basilica were tested for genetic markers, in an effort to determine the geographic origin of the body. If the experts reported back that the person had genetic markers indicating he was from the Middle East, would you really care if they were "biblical specialists" or not? By the same token, should we disqualify Biblical form critics when they write about scientific matters outside their field? Just because form critics write off any historical veracity within the gospel accounts because they say so, and shut off their world view to science, that's rather circular thinking. < At the same time, there are more sophisticated treatments of the scholarly questions: "From Jesus to Christ" was an excellent, if somewhat provocative, examination of the early Christian period. > Well of course, that's stating the pretty obvious isn't it? The TLC show was never meant to be a scholarly monograph; instead it showed the highlights of the research about the Star of Bethlehem and the Magi. If the broadcast generated any interest in viewers to look more into this subject, then bravo! < To get back to Bach ... The 18^th century saw the explosion of much modern biblical criticism: for example, the recognition that there were multiple authors of Isaiah. It would be interesting to know if the new scholarship was active at Leipzig and whether Bach had any contact with these academics. > Rationalism had been around since the late Renaissance, I'm sure Bach, Fasch, Telemann, et al were involved in the bruhaha all the writings of Kant and Lessing were generating. Merry Christmas,
Douglas Cowling wrote (December 20, 2008): Kim Patrick Clow wrote: < Rationalism had been around since the late Renaissance, I'm sure Bach, Fasch, Telemann, et al were involved in the bruhaha all the writings of Kant and Lessing were generating. > This takes us back to an old firestorm I started about the nature of ecclesiastical censorship in Bach's Leipzig. If "reductionist" scholars were astir in Leipzig, Bach's cantata libretti would have aroused intense interest in those who were charged with maintaining orthodoxy. Since Bach himself was one of those watchdogs of orthodoxy, is it totally fanciful that his texts were informally reviewed by his colleagues, the Superintendant in particular, before they went to the printer? There would certainly have been conservative clerics who watched Bach's close association with university academics. The fact that very little, if any, theological heterodoxy manifests itself in Bach's cantatas would suggest that Bach was not only a well-regulated composer but a self-regulating composer. Interesting to think of Bach positioning himself not only between political parties but philosophical schools as well. Has anyone studied the atmosphere at the university during Bach's tenure? Being surrounded constantly by young students all the time mhave brought him into contact with just about every political and philosophical controversy of the period.
William Hoffman wrote (December 20, 2008): BWV 200 - Candlemas, Fugotes: Bach & Canticles Fugitive Notes: Canticles and Bach Thanks to Stiller and our contributors, we have a sound perspective on liturgical practice and Lutheran history in Bach's time. As to the larger issue of Bach's involvement with the academic and related currents during his time, the best grounding, IMO is Carol Baron's Bach's Changing World>, which I know Ed has read through. I turn to the Calov Biblical Commentary and Howard Cox's findings first, one of which still stirs considerable interest and positive debate. This is the Canticle of Moses, Exodus 15:2, "The Lord is my strength and song"; what Robin Leaver calls the first Western music. Bach's marginal comment: "First prelude for two choirs to be performed to the honor of God." While Bach does not use this canticle in his work (Handel does in <Israel in Egypt> 1740), the closest that we come to the marginal comment, literally, is Motet BWV 225, "Sing to the Lord a new song" (Ps. 149). Biblical canticles, also called songs or chants, are a special group of non-psalmic songs. They are intimate songs of individuals directly to God, often as thanksgiving for deliverance. Besides the Song of Moses, echoed by Miriam, there are other notable OT canticles which Bach treats extensively: Moses' canticle to the Congregation of Israel, Deut. 32, notably, verse 4, "He is the rock, his work is perfect"; and the wisdom Song of Solomon; as well as Hanna's Canticle, 1 Samuel 2, beginning verse 1, My heart rejoiceth in the Lord (Cantata BWV 10/1, German Magnificant). What is most significant is Bach's treatment of the three NT Lukan canticles: Mary's Magnificant (My soul doth magnify the Lord), 1:46-55; Zacharias' "Benedictus" (Blessed be the Lord God of Israel), 1:68-79; and Simeon's Nunc dimittis (Lord, let your servant depart in peace), 2:29-32. His usages, variously, are for the Feast of Christmas (BWV 243a) and John the Baptist (BWV 30!, BWV 167), as well as the Marian Festivals of Purification (Simeon, Feb. 2; BWV 200, BWV 157/4, BWV 82/2, BWV 125, BWV 83/2, BWV 158/2); Annunciation, Gabriel's Prophecy, Lk. 1:26-38 (BWV 1, BWV 182 and BWV Anh. 199 and BWV Anh. 156); and Visitation, Magnificat (BWV 243, BWV 10, BWV 147, BWV Anh. 21). Obviously, Bach had some great Lutheran texts to work with, notably the German Magnificat and chorale "Mit Fried und Freud." In conclusion, I would venture to point out that these canticles are a vital part of the vespers, especially the Lucan at Eventide, as well as those other great Psalmic songs, found throughout Bach's celebratory music. So, with all humble respect to both our Catholic brethren and the Protestant Book of Common Prayer, and with a vital acknowledgement of prior contributors to this week's discussion, too numerous to name -- IMHO these songs as well as the German Te Deum and Gloria Patri are the foundation of Bach's joyous music, SDG, aesthetically, and an ecumenical expression from the Lutheran Cantor and composer of the Great C(c)atholic Mass in B-Minor. P.S.: Re. Peter Smaill's recent BCW entry: "Stiller, quoting Rost, notes that in 1724 the feast day of the apostle James was observed in Leipzig (25 July) which is odd in that Luther loathed the Book of James because of its support of the doctrine of Justification by works." In the Lutheran doctrine (for ?Baptism), I think Lutherans make three pledges: To follow the word alone, faith alone, and grace alone, that is to do good works after the acceptance of justification of faith through grace freely given.
Jean Laaninen wrote (December 20, 2008): From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics Aesthetics or esthetics (also spelled æsthetics) is commonly known as the study of sensory or sensori-emotional values, sometimes called judgments of sentiment and taste.[1] More broadly, scholars in the field define aesthetics as "critical reflection on art, culture and nature."[2][3] Aesthetics is a subdiscipline of axiology, a branch of philosophy, and is closely associated with the philosophy of art.[4] Aesthetics studies new ways of seeing and of perceiving the world.[5] I guess this is a pretty broad term, so maybe in discussion it would be helpful to define what part of aesthetics is being addressed for greater clarity. The definition seems to include time, culture, etc., so I don't think the elements are independent to many people.
Douglas Cowling wrote (December 20, 2008): William Hoffman wrote: < What is most significant is Bach's treatment of the three NT Lukan canticles: Mary's Magnificant (My soul doth magnify the Lord), 1:46-55; Zacharias' "Benedictus" (Blessed be the Lord God of Israel), 1:68-79; and Simeon's Nunc dimittis (Lord, let your servant depart in peace), 2:29-32. > It's worth pointing out that the canticles were part of Bach's daily experience. At the Eisenach school, the young Bach and his fellow boys sang Matins (Morning Prayer) at 5:30 am and Vespers (Evening Prayer) at 1:30 pm every day of the week. The Benedictus or Te Deum were sung at Matins daily and the Magnificat at Vespers. (Compline with its canticle, Nunc Dimittis, does not seem to have been sung in every collegiate church.) The same daily pattern was in place for the boys of St. Thomas when Bach came to Leipzig. Although the boys were led by one of the prefects for the daily offices, Bach would have had ultimate responsibility that they knew their music. And of course, the Magnificat was sung in a polyphonic setting every week at Sunday Vespers and in a concerted setting on festivals. Commentators often make the Magnificat in D sound like an orphan in Bach's works, but, in fact, the canticle was constantly present in Bach's creative consciousness. We see this beautifully expressed in the "Suscepit Israel puerum suum" of the D Major setting. The text literally means "He has helped Israel, his boy (=servant). Bach picks up "puerum" and conjures up an aural vision of choirboys singing daily Matins by setting it for three upper voices. And above them, the oboes intone the old German Magnificat, the chorale melody which they sang at those chilly, early Matins services.
Ed Myskowski wrote (December 21, 2008): BWV 200 recordings The Gardiner version of BWV 200, from the year 2000 pilgrimage series, was the first choice of many listeners in the first discussions. Note that the recording is included on one of the four CDs from that series which are available only in the original DG Archiv issues, not in the ongoing SDG releases. The details of this tangled web were kindly (with a bit tedious effort, I expect) provided by Sandy Vaughn in 2006, available in BCW archives at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Performers/Gardiner-Gen11.htm Essential information for those planning to collect the complete pilgrimage releases. I also noticed some nostalgic Xmas/Solstice chat archived on the same page. What a merry coincidence! I share the enthusiasm for Gardiner and ct Robin Tyson, but I find the Koopman version, which was not available at the time of earlier discussion, to be equally enjoyable with its own distinct character. The tempos are comparable, very unhurried, Koopmans gestural details (see earlier explanation bBrad Lehman, from p. 1 of BWV 200 discussion) are somewhat lighter, and provide a fine example of how two different interpretations can be equally <correct>, at least to my ears. Alto Bogna Bartosz is not to be missed, if you will forgive me saying that one more time. Aloha, Ed Myskowski (early solstice AM)
Terejia wrote (December 21, 2008): Jean Laaninen wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29538 quote from the link you gave: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics#cite_note-4 'For Baumgarten aesthetics is the science of the sense experiences, a younger sister of logic, and beauty is thus the most perfect kind of knowledge that sense experience can have. For Kant the aesthetic experience of beauty is a judgment of a subjective but universal truth, since all people should agree that 'this rose is beautiful' if it in fact is. However, beauty cannot be reduced to any more basic set of features. For Schiller aesthetic appreciation of beauty is the most perfect reconciliation of the sensual and rational parts of human nature. For Hegel all culture is a matter of "absolute spirit" coming to be manifest to itself, stage by stage. Art is the first stage in which the absolute spirit is manifest immediately to sense-perception, and is thus an objective rather than subjective revelation of beauty. For Schopenhauer aesthetic contemplation of beauty is the most free that the pure intellect can be from the dictates of will; here we contemplate perfection of form without any kind of worldly agenda, and thus any intrusion of utility or politics would ruin the point of the beauty.' This is how I use the word 'aethetics', roughly speaking. I do not mean that these paragraphs I quoted is correct but at least for me personally aethetics is something absolute(as opposed to relative), objective and often mathematical. Since I am far from up to defining as precisely as the quoted paragraph, the link helps me a lot. I am in the process of learning and I am subject to change, but, for now, I feel Bach's music is expressing aethetics mostly in terms of absolutes, sometimes in terms of relatives. BWV 191 feels like more absolutes rather than relative, to my personal ears.
Neil Halliday wrote (December 21, 2008): [Recordings] Finally, Suzuki should also be mentioned, for a lovely example of BWV 200; relaxed tempo, rich acoustic, Robin Blaze in fine form.
Terejia wrote (December 21, 2008): Bach and misceleneous Jean Laaninen wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29531 >> I have no argument regarding the aesthetics of a work. But in response to why Bach would have chosen to do something special I think there is a combination of cultural patterns and the darkest time of the year. Scandinavians still celebrate the Santa Lucia event in Lutheran communities in America in December--more of the light in darkness pattern. And I guess for me, having grown up with Bach and festive and enriching traditions connected to his music, the aesthetic, the text and the cultural/historical aspect combine richly.<< Probably this is an approach which is a missing element on my part. One of my organ teachers, who studied in a solid German Christian culture (he studied in northern part of Germany, protestant culture, not southern region which has Catholic tradition) used to say that in order to really grasp Western classical music, one may as well place oneself in the same environment as the composer, breath the same air as the composer. Although I was baptized in Catholic in my twenties, I was born and brought up in oriental culture, Buddhism and Shintoism environment. Logical and mathematical approach is the best I can do. Not always correct approach to rely solely on intellectual approach, but for now I cannot help. Most of the active posters are those from USA areas or Europa countries. (..) < But I think it is difficult to spell out what aesthetics actually comprises. This probably differs some from person to person. As you use the term aesthetics, > (..) Yes. I have much more to explore into. I vaguely feel oriental notion of aethetics is much different from that in western world. Not the matter or superior or inferior, simply different. Now speaking of winter solstice, it seems to me as if Japan is seeing the darkest hours now. Yesterday, I attended a seminar addressed to lawyers and social workers on the subject of Livelihood Protection. As you might know in news, recent financial crisis and job shortage is driving more and more people on the street in this cold winter. I came acquainted with many social workers and I realized we both share the same earnest desire : may the text of the first movement of BWV 191 come true and we see peace on earth! I may have to refer more to the text, since cantatas are vocal works. Thank you for your supplementary insight.
Jean Laaninen wrote (December 21, 2008): [To Terejia] You are catching on to the context, and you also have a home frame of reference in your final paragraph. I am still thinking about your prior post on the topic of what aesthetics means, and I will post something more before too long. However, the holidays are just about here, and as with many people, I will be somewhat busy...but I will comment more eventually. (Chuckle--no surprise.)
Ed Myskowski wrote (December 22, 2008): OT? BWV 200 - Bach and history From the site which appears to be sponsored by Dr. Michael Molnar, astronomer, representing his book: <The Star of Bethlehem: The Legacy of the Magi> http://www.eclipse.net/~molnar/ >Why do we celebrate December 25 as Jesus’ birthday? Early Christians did not know the birth date so they adopted and converted a pagan holiday, the birthday of Sol Invictus, the Unconquerable Sun. As I explain in the book it was not the Roman Saturnalia that was converted into Christmas, but the birthday of the pagan sun god. (p. 55-57) < Leaving me to feel at peace (internally), wishing everyone a Merry Christmas (in a few days) and a swinging solstice (an instant of time in the day just passing). I recall a reference (which I do not have time to recover at the moment), suggesting that the reason we celebrate Dec. 25, rather than the precise solstice, usually Dec. 21, is that the four day time interval is exactly what was required to confirm by ancient astronomy (Stonehenge, for example) that the sun had indeed reached its low point, and begun to recover. Patience, only forty days until Candlemas (BWV 200 and many more).
Bruce Simonson wrote (December 23, 2008): [To William Hoffman, regarding Fugitive Notes: Canticles and Bach] I want to acknowledge William's important post on the Canticles; it slipped through my reading of the list. One of my current hot topics of interest is Bach's treatment of the OT and NT Canticles. I hope the group can provide additional insights and pointers to additional resources.
Ed Myskowski wrote (December 23, 2008): OT? Bach and history Terejia wrote: >Overall, in Japan, Catholic church is much popularity oriented and original solemn flavour which might be retained in Europa or USA Catholic churches is almost lost-they gave way to popularity.< Jean Laaninen wrote, paraphrasing Thomas Cahill: >Gregory had an interesting perspective in that he told Augustine not to prefer Roman customs to English--rather, to retain what was good about pagan customs in order to make the missionary message more palatable. "Nor was there any need to outlaw the old festivals or the customs that accompanied them. Just baptize them a bit."< Anything I might try to add would be superfluous? How about the old adage: <When in Rome, do as the Romans do>?
Ed Myskowski wrote (December 23, 2008): Bach and misc. Terejia wrote: >Logical and mathematical approach is the best I can do. Not always correct approach to rely solely on intelapproach, but for now I cannot help.< Logic is never inappropriate, IMO. Some may disagree. I do not find that Terejia relies <solely on intellectual approach., indeed just the opposite. I find her expressions about how the music makes her feel, especially emotional reactions to different keys, very rewarding to share. One of the great benefits of BCW, and one of Aryeh's stated objectives, is to share Bach around the world, in all languages. Just a reminder, there are no 18^th C. Leipzig Lutherans alive. We are all outsiders, enjoying the challenge of understanding that culture and the miracle of the music.
Stephen Benson wrote (December 24, 2008): Ed Myskowski wrote: < Just a reminder, there are no 18^th C. Leipzig Lutherans alive. We are all outsiders, enjoying the challenge of understanding that culture and the miracle of the music. > A quotable quote, Ed!
Jean Laaninen wrote (December 24, 2008): Jean Laaninen wrote: < You are catching on to the context, and you also have a home frame of reference in your final paragraph. I am still thinking about your prior post on the topic of what aesthetics means, and I will post something more before too long. However, the holidays are just about here, and as with many people, I will be somewhat busy...but I will comment more eventually. (Chuckle--no surprise.) > When you say logical and mathematical perhaps you mean that you appreciate the strucutre of the works as your ear picks up on the various lines in Bach. Tell me if I have the right idea.
Jean Laaninen wrote (December 24, 2008): [To Terejia] When you say absolute, do you mean that you are immediately attracted to the work as complete and fulfilling. Does relative mean you are not quite as impressed, or you do not think that the text and the music fulfill an idea as much as possible?
Terejia wrote (December 25, 2008): Jean Laaninen wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29618 < When you say logical and mathematical perhaps you mean that you appreciate the strucutre of the works as your ear picks up on the various lines in Bach. > Yes, something of the sort. I like structural beauty in Bach's combination of lines,which are beautiful in itself when taken apart. My example is the last movement of BWV 131 fugue part, in which, three lines, beautiful in themselves when taken apart, are combined beautifully.
Terejia wrote (December 25, 2008): absolutes and relatives in Bach cantata Jean Laaninen wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29619 > When you say absolute, do you mean that you are immediately attracted to the work as complete and fulfilling.< Yes, something of the sort. I used the word absolute meaning "independent of " other elements. > Does relative mean you are not quite as > impressed, < Not quite... being impressed or not is another separate issue here, for me. >or you do not think that the text and the music fulfill an idea as much as possible? < I used the word "relative" meaning " in relation to other things", like , for example, in relation to Christmas liturgy, advent text. In my own understanding, cantata tends to be relative in that it has text/liberetto as part of it. As Ed said, nobody here has live experiene of Lutherian church liturgy in Germany around the time 1685~ 18C, but as is often pointed out, the cantata originally was performed within a particular context, to the best of my understanding. The thema of aethetic has so deep to explore and well worth being researched into its depth. best wishes for holiday
Terejia wrote (December 25, 2008): Summery of recent posts Thank you, all, for contributing lively and fruiteful discussions. The following is a rough summery of the posts these few days. Far from satisfactory, but Ifd like to offer my humble summery substituting individual replies, which courtesy requires. Also dedicated to the future discussion leader, if it should be of any use at all. BWV 552 related posts (with much appreciation! Those posts of yours helped me a lot last night ) http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29610 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29606 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29615 In dulci Jubilo http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29597 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29598 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29596 Christmas works by J.S.Bach and other composers http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29624 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29605 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29621 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29614 Commentar on Bach's Advent cantata BWV 61 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29613 BWV 243 and/or BWV 243a from the perspective of performers http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29625 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29626 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29628 <>
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (December 25, 2008): [To Bruce Simonson] Bach, to the best of my memory, never treated any of the OT Canticles (i.e., the Canticle of Moses, the three Canticles of Isaiah, etc.). As far as the NT Canticles, Cantata BWV 10 and of course BWV 243 and BWV 243a treat the Canticle of Mary (the "Magnificat anima mea") and Cantata BWV 125 treats one of the two Luther treatments of the Canticle of Simeon ("Mit Fried' und Freud' ich fahr dahin") His treatments also could be found in the smaller Chorale and Sacred Song treatments (BWV 253-523) and, of course, in the Chorale preludes (BWV 599-771). In other sources, Bach's treatment of the Magnificat tune could also be found in the 2^nd movement of both of Bach's second-eldest son's first treatment of the Matthäus-Passion (namely that of 1769) and of the Passionskantate "Die letzten Leiden des Erloesers" of 1770.
James Atkins Pritchard wrote (January 5, 2009): [To Douglas Cowling] Raymond Erickson read a paper a few years ago at a meeting of the American Bach Society called "Leipzig Theologians and the Early Enlightenment: A new avenue to the issue of Bach and the Jews." It occurs to me that this may be of interest. http://j.s.bach.gr.jp/tomita/script/bach2.pl?23=22509 www.americanbachsociety.org/Meetings/LeipzigMeeting.htm http://qcpages.qc.cuny.edu/music/index.php?L=1&M=120 On might also want to look at this when it comes out: Amazon.com Kant and Lessing were just beginning to publish in the years immediately before Bach's death so I don't think it likely that they made much of an impression on him.

Cantata BWV 200: Recordings \| Discussions: Part 1 \| Part 2

Back to the Top

Last update: ýJanuary 5, 2009 ý17:27:21