Cantatas BWV 34 & BWV 34a - Discussions

Cantata BWV 34
O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe [I]
Cantata BWV 34a
O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe [II]
Discussions - Part 2

Continue from Part 1

BWV 34 /BBC Prom/Bach Choir of Bethlehem, USA

Thomas Shepherd wrote (July 30, 2003):
Just finished listening to the late night Prom from the Albert Hall, London on digital radio (DAB - we are so very lucky in the UK with this new technology!!). Its a big venue and the choir did very well to fill it with the exuberance of the musical "fireworks" (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV34-D.htm) conjured up by the words and music. There was a real feeling of joy and enjoyment in their performance. Probably not as Bach would have heard it or imagined it as a concert piece , certainly not for our precious HIPsters, or those who feel Bach has to be heard OVPP - but who cares! - the music was radiant, spoke lovingly of a good God and was very moving. What a wonderful piece - performed with such a intimacy and passion.

Thank you to the choir under Greg Funfgeld for making the end of a tiresome day full of radiance and light.

Philippe Bareille wrote (July 30, 2003):
[To Thomas Shepherd] Thanks to your previous email Thomas I tuned in to radio 3 last night. It is always a pleasure to listen a live concert despite obvious imperfections. It was a large choir but befitting such a big concert hall. They tackled this music with great (and infectious) enthusiasm. I was, however, less impressed by the soloists including the countertenor Daniel Taylor whose voice was probably not suited to such a big space.

BWV 34

Benedikt Haag wrote (February 26, 2004):
I want to discuss about recordings of the cantata BWV 34 "O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe":

Does anybody know very excellent recordings of the cantata 34? Can anybody tell me something about such recordings? Are there any online-shops which sell bach cantatas?

Bradley Lehman wrote (February 27, 2004):
[To Benedikt Haag] My favorite currently is the one by the Windsbach choir, with orchestra of modern instruments, conducted by Beringer [13]: http://rondeau.de/webbusiness/query.php?cp_sid=2382daf371&cp_tpl=5504&cp_pid=15

A 3-minute sample of the opening chorus is available on that page, or directly at: http://rondeau.de/webbusiness/files/samples/ROP2007/BWV34OEwigesFeueroUrsprung.mp3

I ordered it from http://www.jpc.de but it looks like it's available directly from Rondeau also.

The performance? It sounds very well rehearsed, yet still also fresh and spontaneous. It conveys very strongly the fire in the music and text. The other two cantatas here (93 and 100) are also vivid. From cantata BWV 93 Bach reused the soprano/alto duet as a solo organ piece, in the Schüebler chorales BWV 647.

I bought this CD because the alto (Rebecca Martin) was a friend of mine in college and I wanted to hear what she has been up to, with her opera and oratorio career in Germany. And she sings regularly in the Thomaskirche in Leipzig.... But I was impressed with this entire CD, one of my favorites (any CD) of 2003. And especially I like the singing of Markus Schaefer, whom I had not heard before. What a voice! What an interpreter, so clear with the meaning and pronunciation of the words, singing the drama of his texts!

The choir's web site is: http://windsbacher-knabenchor.de

Lawrence Walker wrote (February 27, 2004):
[To Benedikt Haag] For a list of the recordings of BWV 34, see: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV34.htm

Uri Golomb wrote (February 27, 2004):
Of the four recordings I know (Richter [5], Christophers [8], Leonhardt [9], Gardiner [10]), my personal favourite is Gardiner, which combines energetic enthusiasm with meticulous attention to details. Gardiner can be a bit "glib" sometimes, but happily this does not happen in this work: Gardiner employs fast tempi in the opening and closing choruses, but he varies the articulations, timbres and dynamics throughout, creating clear textures and an overall electrifying atmosphere. And I very much enjoy Bernarda Fink's singing in the central alto aria (Mvt. 3).

I do not know Beringer's recording [13], which Brad Lehman recommended, but I have heard Cantata BWV 100 from the same disc (in a listening session at Aryeh Oron's house a few months ago), and enjoyed it very much -- so I have reason to believe that I would enjoy Berginer's Cantata BWV 34 as well.

Neil Halliday wrote (February 27, 2004):
[To Benedikt Haag] The Beringer version [13] is very good, especially in the choruses, but I think both Rilling/Watts (1972) [4] and Richter/Reynolds (1975) [5], with slower tempi and richer orchestration in the exquisite alto aria (Mvt. 3), reveal the rapture of "the souls chosen to dwell with God" more convincingly than Beringer's [13] more 'matter-of-fact' approach (in the aria).

There are many online shops; a good list is at: http://www.jsbach.org/purchasing.html

Aryeh Oron wrote (February 27, 2004):
[To Benedikt Haag] This cantatas was discussed in the BCML in June 2003. That discussion (including my contribution) was compiled into the following page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV34-D.htm

BTW, I think that the place to discuss the cantatas is the BCML and not the BRML...

Bradley Lehman wrote (February 27, 2004):
< The Beringer version [13] is very good, especially in the choruses, but I think both Rilling/Watts (1972) [4] and Richter/Reynolds (1975) [5], with slower tempi and richer orchestration in the exquisite alto aria (Mvt. 3), reveal the rapture of "the souls chosen to dwell with God" more convincingly than Beringer's [13] more 'matter-of-fact' approach (in the aria). >
I haven't heard those Richter [5] and Rilling recordings [4]. But, I must say, I don't notice anything left to be desired in Beringer's [13] orchestra in that aria...it has gorgeous playing from the flutes and strings, a magical texture perfectly balanced. No, it doesn't resemble a Stokowski sound, which could be magical in other ways. But the approach here, IMO, expresses the text well.

I'm curious what "richer orchestration" means in the above paragraph. It's the same orchestration, is it not? All three of these recordings are with orchestras of modern instruments. Are Rilling's [4] and Richter's [5] thicker somehow, with more players and/or more vibrato, or something? The word I think of, listening to Beringer's orchestra [13], is "elegance"...plenty of rapture and an ecstatic hush in that texture. Such gracefully shaped phrasing!

From a concert photo in the booklet it looks as if Beringer [13] has 4 violins per part, and 2 violas.

Neil Halliday wrote (February 28, 2004):
[To Bradley Lehman] Brad, in deference to Aryeh, who correctly points out that this discussion should take place at the BCW, please see a reply to your query concwhat I meant by "richer orchestration" at: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/7235

Neil Halliday wrote (February 28, 2004):
BWV 34 alto aria (Mvt. 3): Rilling, Richter v. Beringer

[To Bradley Lehman] For Brad, who asked what I meant by a "richer orchestration", in comparing the Rilling [4] and Richter [5] versions of this aria, with the more recent Beringer recording [13] (all using modern instruments).

It is simply this, that at a slower tempo and with more legato articulation (Rilling [4] and Richter [5]), one can hear more intermingling of the delicious harmony, as well as more of the individual lines themselves, from the flutes and all the string parts (including viola and continuo), because the notes are being held for a longer time.

It is probably what you referred to as the "Stokowski sound" and yes, in the case of this aria, with Rilling [4] and Richter [5], it is magical. I don't believe it's a question of more instruments (not sure on this), or more vibrato; and I would not use the word "thicker", which suggests loss of transparency of sound.

Beringer [13] is indeed elegant, but in a direct comparison with R and R, is not as rapturous, lacking the 'soft sheen' that colours the orchestra, in the case of Rilling [4] and Richter [5]. (This statement is of course a personal opinion, but is based on the "richer harmony" that is an objective fact, as noted above).

(BTW, with these views in mind, it will be of no surprise to you when I say that Beringer [13], in the recitatives, seems to be following certain 'rules' that result in the vocalist being left 'high and dry').

Beringer's recording [13] features excellent acoustic in the choruses, with fine playing from the orchestra, including resonant but well-balanced timpani, brilliant trumpets, and clear choral singing.

While some may find the tempo of the opening chorus from both Rilling [4] and Richter [5] to be on the 'slowish' side, all three recordings are of the highest standard.

Bradley Lehman wrote (February 29, 2004):
[To Neil Halliday] Thanks for the response, Neil.

I realized last night that I do have the Richter recording [5] after all, on an LP that I had mis-filed to the wrong place, so I listened to it today. I hear what you mean by the description below, about that alto aria (Mvt. 3).

But, as beautiful and well-done as it is...I believe the effect he got here with that super-legato is more appropriate to Wagner and Richard Strauss than to Bach. I miss the natural (like the syllables of language) rise and fall of strong and weak "syllables" in the notes. Yes, there is a decent overall shape to the phrases, but that is only one level of interest and I'd rather hear several more dimensions to it. More gracefulness and naturalness from smaller groupings of the notes, while still having the forward flow and longer shapes as well.

Such shaping of good/bad notes makes it easier to follow as many lines as one wants to, with the ear, not more difficult. For example: in Harnoncourt's [6] and Leusink's recordings [12] of this aria, no trouble at all picking out anything. By comparison, in my opinion, Richter's [5] is an amorphous blob of pleasant sound, all run together. (And Harnoncourt's tempo there, even slower than Richter's, seems to me to be eccentrically slow...but they make it work nicely in the shaping of all the parts.)

Anyway, as I said recently on that other list, overall for this cantata my favorite recording remains Beringer's [13]; but all of these are enjoyable. Beringer's is so simple and unproblematic, and well-rehearsed yet fresh...so elegant and exciting at the same time.

Has anybody pointed out the thematic ties that alto aria (Mvt. 3) has with the "O Mensch, bewein" chorus of the St Matthew Passion (BWV 244)? The instrumental parts are so similar!

I noticed with interest, in the documentation of the Richter album [5], it took them two days in March and May of 1974 and two more days in January 1975 to get this 18-minute cantata recorded. I'd guess that's one day for both choruses, and one each for the three solos. And they list just about everybody in the orchestra except the violinists and violists. Then five days in those same two years for cantata 68, and four days for 175. I understand the exigencies of recording sessions, but that still seems awfully widespread for any hope of a unified forward flow.... Whatever happened to getting the people all together on the same day and giving it a couple of tries, the way music is normally played and sung outside recordings? It's only 18 minutes long!

Neil Halliday wrote (March 1, 2004):
[To Bradley Lehman] I quite like the Leusink example [12], available at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Mus/BWV34-Mus.htm

Notice that Leusink [12] does in fact employ more legato than Beringer [13] (who breaks the flute line after the first two notes, for example). The use of legato - to give a flowing 'line' to a (longer) phrase - seems to be important in this aria.

In general, while Brad's point that

"Such shaping of good/bad notes makes it easier to follow as many lines as one wants to, with the ear, not more difficult"

alerts me not to necessarily equate legato articulation with greater clarity of the parts (and consequent "richness" of harmony), I would point out that if one note in a particular line is given special emphasis by means of an increase in volume, then, at this instant, the notes in the other lines will more likely become (in effect) inaudible. (This is the reason for my aversion to the exaggerated articulation, or micro-management, we sometimes hear from period groups).

BWV 34 & 34a (was: Religious Affiliation (was: Introducing Myself)

Continue of discussion from: Members - 2004 [General Topics]

Charles Francis wrote (May 22, 2004):
[To Smoovus] As one who worships FIRE, I imagine you'll appreciate one of Bach's late cantatas, BWV 34:

O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe,
Entzünde die Herzen und weihe sie ein.
Laß himmlische Flammen durchdringen und wallen,
Wir wünschen, o Höchster, dein Tempel zu sein,
Ach, laß dir die Seelen im Glauben gefallen.

[O eternal FIRE, o source of love
ignite our hearts and consecrate them.
Make heavenly flames penetrate and flow through us,
We wish, o most high Lord, to be your temple,
Ah, make our souls pleasing to you in faith.]

A reference, one suggests, to the alchemical transformation of the temporal to the eternal (Re: turning lead into gold).

Johan van Veen wrote (May 22, 2004):
[To Charles Francis] What a load of rubbish.

This is a cantata for Whit Sunday. The text of the opening chorus refers to the "cloven tongues like as of fire" which appeared to the apostles and "sat each of them" - as told in Acts 2.

This is a symbol of the Holy Spirit moving in with them and making them to his 'temple'. In the cantata this is connected to the Gospel reading of that Sunday, in which Jesus says: "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

The "eternal fire" (= the HolSpirit) is asked to fill the heart with love and then to move in and make it to his temple.

No connection to alchemy whatsoever.

Charles Francis wrote (May 22, 2004):
[To Johan van Veen] I don't believe your somewhat parochial interpretation of the text corresponds to the facts we have available. If one looks at the original wedding cantata from 1726 (BWV 34a) ones reads:

O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe,
Entzünde der Herzen geweihten Altar.
Laß himmlische Flammen durchdringen und wallen,
Ach laß doch auf dieses vereinigte Paar
Die Funken der edelsten Regungen fallen.

[O eternal FIRE, o source of love,
ignite the sacred altar of their hearts.
Let heavenly flames penetrate and surge,
Ah, may upon this united pair
the sparks of noblest impulse fall.]

Given the purposes of the original (BWV 34a) was a wedding, there is no reason to assume a connection to the apostles in Acts 2. In the parody (BWV 34) Bach made for Whit Sunday, he therefore leverages an existent wedding text, almost certainly making the needed textual adjustments himself. This is fully aligned with the Lutheran-inspired alchemical treatise "The Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkruetz", which was first published in 1616 with a commentary published in Lüneburg in 1617: http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Archives/chemical.htm

(Lüneburg will be known to many on this group as the place where Bach worked as a chorister at the Church of Saint Michael).

Cara Emily Thornton wrote (May 22, 2004):
Charles Francis wrote:
< Given the purposes of the original (BWV 34a) was a wedding, there is no reason to assume a connection to the apostles in Acts 2. >
Yeah there is. It's in Ephesians 5:22-33. This passage is about marriage, and an explicit parallel is drawn between the relationship of husband and wife, and the relationship of Christ and the Church. Furthermore, in Eph. 1:13-14, there is something about the function of the Holy Spirit - in this context, He serves as a deposit on our inheritance [as children of God] until the day of redemption. In the wedding imagery, He could be viewed as an 'engagement ring' - the wedding to take place in due time in heaven, as I understand it (I'm not much into eschatology, in that I am already living in eternity and considering all those things that are 'yet to come' as present reality).

Johan van Veen wrote (May 22, 2004):
Charles Francis wrote: < This is fully aligned with the Lutheran-inspired alchemical treatise "The Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkruetz", which was first published in 1616 with a commentary published in Lüneburg in 1617: http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Archives/chemical.htm
(Lüneburg will be known to many on this group as the place where Bach worked as a chorister at the Church of Saint Michael). >
And what has the one thing to do with the other? Is the fact that Bach worked in the same place as the treatise was published evidence that he has been influenced by it, or even read it? Is there any proof he even knew that it existed?

Thomas Braatz wrote (May 22, 2004):
BWV 34 &34a (formerly: Religious Affiliation (formerly:Introducing Myself))

Just checking quickly in the NBA KBs and Dürr�s book on the cantatas, I discover the following theories about both libretti:

1) the authorship of both libretti can be attributed to Christian Weiß, senior, pastor of St. Thomas Church in Leipzig from 1714-1736. He would have written, in all probability [�es ist von großer Wahrscheinlichkeit� � Frederick Hudson based on research by Werner Neumann, NBA KB I/33 p. 46] the libretto, as father of the bride, for her marriage ceremony on November 8, 1728, and then later, for the parody, have been of assistance to Bach as well. Alfred Dürr places BWV 34a even earlier: March 6, 1726, based upon the early watermark and a probable connection to a theologian indirectly referred to in the text, while the parody BWV 34, again based upon the paper used, must have been created in the early 1740s but not 1742 because it (Pentecost) was during the 2-week time of mourning for the queen-widow Maria Amalia (last fact courtesy of Fr. Smend.)

2) the librettist for both compositions is still unknown.

3) the least likely theory is that Bach wrote both libretti, or that he may have attempted to rewrite/modify the original for the parody.

Christian Weiß, senior, was Bach�s �father confessor� 1723-1736 and had defended him against Leipzig City Councillor Lehmann who represented the city over against the authority of the church (Weiss.) As Christoph Wolff puts it in his Bach biography �Johann Sebastian Bach: The Learned Scholar� [Norton, 2000] p. 245:

�The cantor [Bach] was expected to respond, but on the instruction of superintendent Deyling, pastor Christian Weiss quickly rose to make the presentation and carry out the official installation on behalf of the consistory, an act branded by Lehmann as �an innovation which must be brought to the attention of a Noble Council.� After extending his congratulations to the new cantor, Lehmann put this to the assembly �at once,� having perceived Weiss�s action as an encroachment by the church on the civic authorities, already a sore point between the church consistory and the city council. But before the unexpected interruption led to a sidebar dispute between Lehmann and Weiss, �the new Cantor expressed his most obliged thanks to a Nobel and Wise Council, in that the same had been most graciously pleased to think of him in conferring this office, with the promise that he would serve the same with all fidelity and zeal, would show due respect to his superiors, and in general to conduct himself that his greatest devotion should always be observed. Whereupon the other instructor of the School congratulated him, and the occasion was concluded with another musical piece.�

Christian Weiß, senior, died in 1736, so that the Hudson�s theory that Weiss, senior, might have helped Bach with the Pentecost parody BWV 34, which was subsequently dated to the early 1740s, can be scratched.

Discussions in the Week of February 24, 2008

Jean Laaninen wrote (February 22, 2008):
Introduction to Cantata BWV 34 - O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe

Introduction to Cantata BWV 34 - O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe
(O eternal fire, O source of Love) Dürr
(O eternal fire, O fount of love) Unger

URL for BWV 34 page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV34.htm

URL for BWV 34 previous discussion page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV34-D.htm

Created for Pentecost or Whit Sunday, the high day of celebration of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus before his ascent into heaven, this cantata is based upon a wedding cantata, number 34a (Dürr).

The following sections offer development of the theme:

(Mvt. 1) Opening Chorus: SATB, trumpets I-III This is a petition to God, the eternal source of fire and love to enkindle �our� hearts and to build within �us� the desire to be a pleasing temple for His Spirit.
(Mvt. 2) Tenor Recitative: This section is in the form of a prayer upon the established theme, but progresses from the corporate angle of a congregation of those whom the Spirit will inhabit to the personal element of the individual making his/her own heart a dwelling that may be pleasing.
(Mvt. 3) Alto Aria: The textual direction returns to the corporate or congregational scene as the alto proclaims the benefits of being chosen by God to be His temple.
(Mvt. 4) Bass Recitative: Reinforcing the words of the alto aria the bass pronounces that if God has chosen people as His tabernacle He will pour oublessings over His consecrated house with the following words:
(Mvt. 5) Tutti SATB trumpets I-III, timpani and strings, oboe I and II and continuo: �Peace upon Israel� (that is, peace to the church in traditional Lutheran theology and in the context of the liturgical service). The chorus speaks forth thanks for God�s thinking of them (His people) through His works of blessing in sending to them His peace, and on this particular Sunday the outpouring of His Spirit.

In the libretto, the vocal and verbal elements fit quite adequately with the preaching texts for the day. Poetically, the word occurrence alone is also interesting. The librettist is anonymous in this case. In the opening aria following the first two lines that do not rhyme, the remaining six lines follow in pairs with rhyming or similar sounding endings. These rhyming words are particularly appealing in German rather than English, as they highlight the text so well. The first pair �Flammen� (flames) and �Wallen� (wall, as in flames moving up a wall) depict the flames of the Spirit and the welling up of His spiritual flames. The second pair �dein� (yours) and �sein� (to be) indicate the idea that �we wish to be yours.� This builds upon the idea of the flames building up in a corporate sense in the congregational community. In the final two lines the words �gefallen� (please), Seelen (soul or life) and Glauben (to believe) work together poetically to give the idea �to please by belief� and provide the singers an expressive tool. As a former chorale member and still a singer these details are perhaps the most interesting elements for me.

Schweitzer also points out something interesting in regard to the score of the first chorus (Mvt. 1). He shares that by the existence of some older parts this verse has been based on a mourning cantata of the same title (II, p. 347). He says, regarding the first violin part that �the semiquaver figure of the first violins run through the whole first chorus like the lambent flames that are to set the heart on fire.�

Score-wise, the tenor recitative provides a long sustained four measure basso continuo note that may or may not be harmonically realized, but that provides a break from the enjoyable and frenetic activity of the violins in the preceding verse. The remainder of the score in the tenor aria does not show figured bass numbers, and if so one might consider that the simplicity of the underlying lines allows for a more personal and reflective contemplation of the text. As a matter of text painting the ascending figures in the tenor line in my view also reflect the prayer aspect of this recitative.

As the progression moves to the alto aria (Mvt. 3), the basso continuo engages in an undeveloped pattern of two sets of quavers--or as we say in the US, sets of four eighth notes--in a very simple pattern. Above, flutes, violins and violas accompany the alto. A repeated motive of four semi-quavers and eighth notes tied together in the strings form one pattern that is repeated in the accompaniment many times over. Variations on this motive also can be seen in the flutes. I cannot say that this necessarily involves some text painting, but I see the motive as an aural/textual figure that adds expansion to the cantata as a whole, and provides a nice contrast to the tenor part.

Moving to the bass recitative, the continuo provides just the barest of lines to undergird the vocalist. The technique imparts some solemnity before the pronouncement of �peace� in a measured slow tempo, followed by an exuberant move to cut time punctuated with rising motives in octave scale patterns. These are contrasted with some straight quarter note rhythms placed against periodic sets of eighth note patterns that then accompany straighter rhythms when the vocal parts enter. Even rhythm prevails in the continuo for the most part. The rising scale motif on �Dankt� (thanks) seems to me to be a matter of text painting. I have occasionally mentioned in writing that the falling motives are sometimes interpreted either as blessings or judgment from heaven, and ascending motives may be seen as a response to God�s blessings or prayer petitions. Dürr emphasizes the declamatory character of this final movement.

Some scoring elements:

Taking a little more detailed look at the score, beginning in measure four of the opening chorus, both the continuo and the timpani have an interesting figure for two measures. The continuo pattern is to sustain, and the timpani provides a trill on a single pitch above. This pattern is a kind of echo of the trumpet part in full measures two and three and the sustain pattern occurs again in measure eight, once again for the trombone. The timpani and continuo pick up this pattern again in measure 10. Going on to measure 12 the strings join with the same motive. Other parts move in eighth and sixteenth notes supplying forward motion that is then taken on by the singers when the chorus enters. The sustain motives develop eventually in the chorus with the arrival of a new motive in four sixteenths and an eighth note in the high range of the trumpet for a dramatic moment on �entsunde die Herzen und weihe sie ein�. From this point, what we have is a lengthy opening chorus with repeats and diminution of some motives, and some passages that are more sustained. After the fermata there is a chorus and continuo section alone, presented with greater simplicity as the strings re-enter using some of the prior motives which are joined with fragments or variations on others. At this point the oboes, trumpets and timpani drop out. The form is ABA.

The tenor Recitative II opens with a three measure sustained note, and is followed by half and quarter notes, with no syncopation. To date, most of the recitatives I have observed either have some dotted notes, or they have some flourishes. Figured bass is available if an arrangement is desired. This is one of the simplest recitatives I�ve seen so far.

The tempo picks up, using two sets of eighth notes in four in the continuo moving into the aria, Mvt. 3. However, the sustained figure we have seen in the previous movements is also used in the viola in this instance. Parallel, oblique and contrary motion are presented in the flutes and other strings with a new rhythmic motive we have not seen so far in this cantata. The alto enters in measure nine with the motive that has been offered in the introduction by the flute and strings. A bit further on her part becomes smoother over fewer notes as the flutes and strings continue with greater activity. A new motive appears in the flutes in measure fifteen, and is used alternatively with prior motives. Further enhancing the work, voice and continuo proceed along together for about six measures before all the other instruments re-enter. These basic motives again continue to be mixed and matched until the end. There is no return to the beginning.

With even greater simplicity, the accompaniment for Recitative IV is built primarily via long sustained notes. Here no figuration is given for the continuo.

All parts join in a final chorus. In this case there is no return to motives from the previous numbers. A rising motive of an eighth note rest followed by seven eighth notes is seen frequently, along with other eighth note clusters. The continuo for the most part keeps the rhythm in quarter notes throughout.

Once again I am impressed with the way Bach masters, mixes and remixes his motives to produce a work that vibrantly moves, carrying a message for the day.

Please add your comments and observations to my writings to enrich this discussion. And if you have comments on the recordings of this cantata please step in to share your thoughts. In particular, if you have studied BWV 34a, please add your views.

Bruce Simonson wrote (February 22, 2008):
[To Jean Laaninen] Thank you for your excellent introduction to BWV 34, and your insights for the group.

I look forward to discussing a number of topics on this cantata, so I think I'll start another threaon text issues, for now. And I would like to respond directly to your introduction, after I have some time to think about it in detail. Thanks again for getting this cantata started.

Bruce Simonson wrote (February 22, 2008):
BWV 34 - which text is best, BWV 34 or BWV 34A ?

Short question:

Which text is best matched to the music ... BWV 34 or BWV 34A?

Longer Explanation:

We anticipate performing this cantata (BWV 34) in May, here in Juneau. I very much look forward to getting to know this work in detail, and to the many pleasures provided by studying it and preparing its performance.

It is interesting reading the previous BCML discussions, dating back to 2003, for this cantata. It's probably inappropriate to rehash All Of The Issues here, even though they are still interesting, and I'd love to do it.

At the outset, though, I'd like to get the group's advice and thoughts on one point.

Before each of our concerts, I like to discuss the work with the audience, and highlight important ideas with musical examples.

One of the recurring points I find myself making is the way Bach amplifies his texts, and particular words in the texts, with his music. This isn't a new idea with me, of course, ... consider Harnoncourt's "Music as Speech", and practically any discussion of specific cantatas and their texts.

In BWV 34, specific examples come to mind, just from the title and first line of text, including the words "ewiges", "Feuer", and "Ursprung".

Here's my dilemma however. It's BWV 34A, to be precise.

If Bach pays so much attention to text, and composed this music for BWV 34A, then the music should fit the words to 34A, and shouldn't (necessarily) be expected to match up with the text for BWV 34. Specifically, the music is for a wedding, or it's for Pentecost, but it's surely not for both ...

I'm not comfortable calling this out as a coincidence, and also a little squeamish saying something like "weddings and Pentecost have a lot in common (or at least, something in common...), so ... uh ... naturally, the same music is appropriate for both."

(Although something like this must have been what Bach was thinking when he adapted BWV 34A for use in BWV 34, 20 years later ... or, maybe, he was thinking Pentecost 20 years earlier, as he worked on a Cantata for a wedding on November 8? ... ).

What is troubling me, is my belief that Bach thought deeply about his texts, and thought how he could best set them to music, and then in this instance, we find the same music fits (magnificently!?) in two different contexts.

Anyone have some suggestions on how to resolve this quandry for me?

The extent to which the texts are unchanged in the movements common to BWV 34A to BWV 34 is remarkable, of course, and adds credibility to using the music twice. And the music does seem to fit the text so very well, in both cases. (Only once, perhaps, a little more obviously in BWV 34A:4 than in BWV 34:5, where the ascending D major scales can be easily analogized to "Stufen").

Anyway, here are the texts ( from
http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~wfb/cantatas/34.html and
http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~wfb/cantatas/34a.html ), which are in "possible conflict":

---------

Specific texts, differences in bold face (if yahoo groups will display them that way):

---------

BWV 34A:1

O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe,
Entzünde der Herzen geweihten Altar.
Laß himmlische Flammen durchdringen und wallen
Ach lass doch auf dieses vereinigte Paar,
Die Funken der edelsten Regungen fallen.

BWV 34:1

O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe,
Entzünde die Herzen und weihe sie ein.
Laß himmlische Flammen durchdringen und wallen,
Wir wünschen, o Höchster, dein Tempel zu sein,
Ach, lass dir die Seelen im Glauben gefallen.

---------

BWV 34A:5

Wohl euch, ihr auserwählten Schafe,
Die ein getreuer Jacob liebt.
Sein Lohn wird dort am größten werden,
Den ihm der Herr bereits auf Erden
Durch seiner Rahel Anmut gibt.

BWV 34:3

Wohl euch, ihr auserwählten Seelen,
Die Gott zur Wohnung ausersehn.
Wer kann ein größer Heil erwählen?
Wer kann des Segens Menge zählen?
Und dieses ist vom Herrn geschehn.

---------

BWV 34A:4

Friede über Israel.
Eilt zu denen heilgen Stufen,
Eilt, der Höchste neigt sein Ohr.
Unser Wünschen dringt hervor,
Friede über Israel,
Friede über euch zu rufen.

BWV 34:5

Friede über Israel.
Dankt den höchsten Wunderhänden,
Dankt, Gott hat an euch gedacht.
Ja, sein Segen wirkt mit Macht,
Friede über Israel,
Friede über euch zu senden.

---------

Question rephrased:

One way to make this issue concrete would be:

If you were given the music to BWV 34, and both of the above texts, which text would you guess inspired the music?

I look forward to your comments (and help!) ... please.

PS: Here are some thoughts on possible connections between BWV 34A, a wedding cantata, and BWV 34, a cantata for Pentecost:

a) Christ is the Bridegroom, the Church is the Bride.

b) Pentecost (for which BWV 34 is composed) starts the portion of the Lutheran Church year assigned to the Church (the "Bride"). From Advent, up to Pentecost, the portion of the Church year is assigned to Christ (the "Groom", i.e., Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Lent, Easter, and six more Sundays, before Pentecost). Hence Pentecost is the first day of the liturgical year when the Church (as the "Bride") is identified, and the relationship ("marriage"?) between Christ and the Church is explicity defined.

c) Ascension Day is forty days after Easter (on a Thursday); Pentacost is fifty days after Easter, including Easter, and there is a Sunday in between ("Exaudi"). Technically, Christ ascended "off this mortal coil" for approximately a week and three days, before the Church's portion of the liturgical year begins. Don't know if this helps or complicates a "wedding" interpretation of Pentecost.

Bruce Simonson wrote (February 22, 2008):
BWV 34 - recitativs and quick questions

[To Jean Laaninen] In her introduction, Jean mentions a couple of items that I would like clarified a bit:

a) Schweitzer mentions something about a "mourning" cantata as a source ... is this one of those unfortunate typos passed forward in the chaos of transcriptions, where "Trauung" (wedding) and "Trauer" (sorrow) have been confused? Is there really a funeral cantata or motet somewhere in the mileau?

b) Jean mentions the tympani has a roll on a "single pitch above". In my scores (sorry, I only have the BG on CD, and a score from Hannsler (1960)), timpani is in A and D (like the trumpets), so the pitch of the tympani rolls are the same note as in the continuo. However, in the piano vocal transcription on the web-site, this tympani roll is very odd ... indeed, appearing as a whole note above the continuo pitch: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Scores/BWV034-V&P.pdf .

This is very odd to me, perhaps a means to somehow making a tympani roll more playable on the piano (why not octave tremolos)? (Incidentally, this piano reduction is very challenging; the one currently available from Hannsler (Carus) is much easier to play).

c) Jean mentions that in the two recits (tenor, Mvt. 2; bass, Mvt. 4), only the first three measures of the tenor recit have continuo figures. I don't have access to NBA, or the Kritical Bericht; is there anything in here that explains the lack of figures? On the other hand, is it common to not have figures in recits? (I have a copy of Dreyfus's "Bachs Continuo Group", but haven't read it in a while, and don't have it here, right at hand, at the office). Can anyone provide information on the lack of continuo figures in most of the measures in these recits?

Salute! my Bach friends and aficionados!

Jean Laaninen wrote (February 23, 2008):
[To Bruce Simonson] Thanks for your support of the work I've done so far. Prior to this my involvement in writing in this vein has been limited to two papers prepared in a Baroque Music Theory graduate level class at ASU in Tempe. I am retired now, amy academic work was spread between the disciplines of Sociology, Theology and Music. I am not a musicologist, and I rely a great deal on the opinions of those with such training when I encounter questions. However, having said that, if you are presenting material to a Bach chorus (and most of these people are accomplished, educated, and intelligent) you will no doubt want to 'feed' the group with an understanding of the material which will inspire their performance.

I cannot say which might have been written first, but the most meaningful connection I find at surface level is that Pentecost is a huge celebration in the church, and a wedding is quite often a huge celebration in a family. Both Pentecost and wedding gatherings are highly communal activities in which the blessing of God is poured out as it is sought. The imagery of the church as Christ's bride in my view compares favorably to the wedding celebration. In some of the weddings where I have played or been a singer, attendant or guest, the prayers for future children to extend the family, and thereby the growth family of God is a given in parallel to the growth of the church at Pentecost.

The joining of families in Roman Catholic services, and perhaps in some Lutheran services sometimes involves the lighting of a candle (unity candle) by the bride and groom, followed by their lighting of candles of the parents of both couples. Here we have the 'flammen' imagery imparted. I do not know whether this tradition may or may not have passed down from Catholism to Lutheransim in Bach's day, but there is a parallel here that I find very interesting, that joins these two works for the purposes of illustration.

For Bach to use such material with some similar wording twice bodes for the fact that he found some association. Could it be too far fetched to imagine that someone loved the music so much from the 'original' that they asked Bach to set the second cantata to this score?

In my past history I was in charge of the music for a large Lutheran Women's convention in Michigan many years ago. I hired an organist from Andrews University in Berrien Springs, Michigan (one of my past teachers) for the job, and we selected some hymn tunes and I wrote song text for these tunes related to the theme of the convention. We had some quick work to do as we'd hired some brass players and at the last minute had to re-write their parts for the staff in which they ordinarily read. Sometimes there is no reason to reinvent the wheel...I'm sure Bach was quite comfortable with reworking his material the way preacher's often rework theirs.

So I cannot see as a rule the kind of chicken and egg question too well...who knows, and maybe someone does, which text or music came first. The main thrust in my thinking is whether a thing works or not, and inspires or fails to inspire. I will never forget that convention because on top of everything we could not find a choir director who would travel to the location and I had to undertake the choir director's job as well as being a presenter for one discussion group. Somehow it all worked out, and within the time frame. So, there is also the possibility that Bach had a time constraint and may have wished to re-use which ever came first to get a job done effectively. But I think he would have seen meaningful associations between the work in the vein that I have just written. And, I hope others will add their thoughts.

Additionally, you wonder how it was possible for him to make things work so well in both cases. He was smart, he was inspired, he was experienced and he was needed. Bach could rise to the occasion--but I think the parallel went quite deep with him in this case. He knew the struggles of the church and the importance of the inspiration of God's spirit, and certainly marriage in Lutheran views, God's Spirit to make things work and hold things together. This is my opinion. I don't think it is superficial. I've been married forty years as of this past week. That's one reason I endorse my own ideas. IMO.

Jean Laaninen wrote (February 23, 2008):
Scroll down for some answers:

Bruce Simonson wrote:
< In her introduction, Jean mentions a couple of items that I would like clarified a bit:
a) Schweitzer mentions something about a "mourning" cantata as a source ... is this one of those unfortunate typos passed forward in the chaos of transcriptions, where "Trauung" (wedding) and "Trauer" (sorrow) have been confused? Is there really a funeral cantata or motet somewhere in the mileau? >
I'm glad you mentioned this...I don't know the answer, but tried to include a variety of material for the group to peruse. This is probably one of those typo issues that occasionally occured, to my guess.

< b) Jean mentions the tympani has a roll on a "single pitch above". In my scores (sorry, I only have the BG on CD, and a score from Hannsler (1960)), timpani is in A and D (like the trumpets), so the pitch of the tympani rolls are the same note as in the continuo. However, in the piano vocal transcription on the web-site, this tympani roll is very odd ... indeed, appearing as a whole note above the continuo pitch: >
I believe I pulled this from the BGA , but I wrote the intro six months ago and have not revisited the score. I do know that today we have quite a few different scores, and they do not always all show the same thing; even more, sometimes the scores available are in different keys. Here, at least we have the possiblility of a typographical error, but I do remember Brad sharing with Julian not so long ago that a score Julian felt to be clearly in error was a case of scores that were compiled at different times from different sources. For practical purposes, then, the only choice seems to be to use the score you have for your work, and disregard this particular feature of my writing as it is not useful for you. If it is wrong...well, it would be fine with me if someone were to correct it.

< http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Scores/BWV034-V&P.pdf
This is very odd to me, perhaps a means to somehow making a tympani roll more playable on the piano (why not octave tremolos)? (Incidentally, this piano reduction is very challenging; the one currently available from Hannsler (Carus) is much easier to play). >
c) Jean mentions that in the two recits (tenor, Mvt. 2; bass, Mvt. 4), only the first three measures of the tenor recit have continuo figures. I don't have access to NBA, or the Kritical Bericht; is there anything in here that explains the lack of figures? On the other hand, is it common to not have figures in recits? (I have a copy of Dreyfus's "Bachs Continuo Group", but haven't read it in a while, and don't have it here, right at hand, at the office). Can anyone provide information on the lack of continuo figures in most of the measures in these recits? >
This is likely due to a difference between editions. Due to the fact that we have recitatives with developed continuo (arrangements) in the scores Aryeh has obtained, I was curious about the scores without figuration or missing elements. I had read somewhere that continuo players were often so developed that they did not need lengthy figuration, but that is only occured sometimes where the composer had something very specific in mind. Going back to my work with Sibelius, just using the melody and the bass note produced a chord sequence for a recitative that matched the online scores in terms of chord progression. The two book series which Thomas Braatz recommended by F. T. Arnold will show you, if you desire, an amazing array of possibilities for fb as they were worked out in time.

Best wishes on what I hope will be a superb performance of this work.

Aryeh Oron wrote (February 23, 2008):
BWV 34 & BWV 34a

Some questions have been raised as well as confusing statements made (as for example: it appears not to be clear to some as to which version came first) in the present discussion.
Thomas Braatz asked me (off-list to) indicate that important information that may have been overlooked can found at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Ref/BWV34-Ref.htm
He also sent me more material, which has been added to this page.

Jean Laaninen wrote (February 23, 2008):
[To Aryeh Oron & Thomas Braatz] Thanks Aryeh and Thomas.

I appreciate this information (below) being added as these finer details were not available to me, and of interest to individuals based on past discussions. My own efforts are basically to provide a foundation for the discussion, and every valuable addition that others can offer certainly enhances the discussion. As a singer, flute player and keyboard player my primary interests lie with the matter of performance, but as we discuss these matters I can see that the educational factor for someone like Bruce who wishes to offer his chorale the greatest informative detail can also become important to the outcome of a performance. Thanks so much to both of you for staying on top of this.

Neil Halliday wrote (February 24, 2008):
Bruce Simonson wrote:
>Jean mentions the tympani has a roll on a "single pitch above". In my scores (sorry, I only have the BG on CD, and a score from Hannsler (1960)), timpani is in A and D (like the trumpets), so the pitch of the tympani rolls are the same note as in the continuo.<
The two-bar-long notes in the opening bars are all D's, but at different pitches. I expect Jean was referring to the fact that the timpani part is above the continuo part in the 14 stave score.

Allowing for the transposition of the timpani and trumpets (written in C major; the rest of the score is written in D major), my reading of the BGA has bars 2 and 3 with held D on 1st trumpet (the D on 4^th line of treble clef); bars 4 and 5 with timpani roll on D ( the D on 3^rd line of bass clef); and simultaneously long held D on continuo above the bass clef (after an initial leap from the D an octave below); these three D's span two octaves (I think they are referred to as D3, D4 and D5. In another system I have seen them referred to as d, d1 and d2).

<I don't have access to NBA, or the Kritical Bericht; is there anything in here that explains the lack of figures?>
Thomas Braatz has supplied the answer to that question: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Ref/BWV34-Ref.htm

"Normally there are 3 continuo parts. Since the Organo or transposed continuo part is the only part or source that usually contains the figured bass that J.S. Bach adds after it has been copied is missing, there is no other source for Bach's figured bass intentions. His autograph scores do not, as a rule, contain any figured bass."

[BTW, I am pleased to report what I regard as satisfactory secco accompaniment from another HIP ensemble, heard on the radio recently in BWV 66: Philip Pickett and the London Consort. His method, similar to Coin that I reported recently, was with pratically full-length organ chords - similar to those shown in the BCW scores - with bright upper harmonies, and without the bass strings that often thicken the texture in an unpleasant manner. OTOH, he only had one anaemic little violin in his ensemble in the other movements....)

Re the textual points mentioned by Bruce: (a) it seems inconceivable (following Schweitzer?) that this cantata (BWV 34 or BWV 34a) has anything to do with a funeral. (b) I find both both texts (of BWV 34 and BWV 34a) to be equally appropriate; I would use BWV 34a for a wedding and BWV 34 for a more general occasion (including ofcourse a church service at Pentacost); the brilliance of the music will make a profound impression regardless of the occasion.

The imagery of the opening line, the same in both texts, is fantastic: "O eternal fire, O well-spring of love".

This image perhaps relates to many cultures and religions, eg, the fire constanly burning at Delphi in ancient Greece, the eternal fire of Zoroastrianism which was likely assimilated by Judaism and Christianity, with God represented by fire (the burning bush seen by Moses, Pentacost). Modern listeners might also think of the fire of sexual passion as well the mystical union of souls (soul-mates) that occurs (hopefully) in marriage. The Pentacostal event itself, where the fire of the Holy Spirit ("as with tongues like fire") revealed itself, was also an event of great joy.

{Fire is obviously a fascinating topic - the first technology mastered by man, it also has a negative side, reflected in the eternal fires of Hell, and destructive power).

Thanks to Bruce (or was it originally Jean) for mentioning the frequent occurence of long-held notes; they are certainly an important feature of the opening chorus.

Jean Laaninen wrote (February 24, 2008):
[To Neil Halliday] Thanks so much, Neil. As always, your years of working with the material add so much comprehension. I mention the continuo sustaining--which was my reference to the long held notes. All the features of these works are fascinating just to view, but become meaningful in the performance. I can imagine conductors over the years experiencing some real excitment when they have the right ensemble to highlight the interesting techniques of the Baroque period and especially Bach's works.

As always...I look forward to what you will add to each week's cantata.

Terejia wrote (February 24, 2008):
[To Jean Laaninen] Thank you so much for taking time on this inspiring contribution.

Again, being rather pressed in schedule(I have to do a legal lecture tomorrow), I cannot afford spending my time on a score analysis. To reply to your kind regards for me in your last e-mail quickly, being priviledged to full time study in music is definitely an essential part of musical talent/gift, in my personal opinion.

Now as to this joyous cantata, this is definitely one of my favorite. I have Leonhardt. Quoting from the bottom :

>> All parts join in a final chorus. In this case there is no return to motives from the previous numbers. A rising motive of an eighth note rest followed by seven eighth notes is seen frequently, along with other eighth note clusters. The continuo for the most part keeps the rhythm in quarter notes throughout. <<

If you permit me to post my casual non-academic comment, I can feel outpouring joy of "Danken"(i.e. gratitude) in in an ascending melody all the way to octave higher in eighth notes.

As to what Ed mentioned about the link of text and music, I don't know for sure if voice is just "another instrument" or has some distinct independent aethetic factor in the music. At least sometimes text might have significant influence on music, and this final chorus feels like so, as it feels like to me...

Jean Laaninen wrote (February 24, 2008):
[To Terejia] You're most welcome...any way any of us can help each other contributes to the good of all of us.

You wrote:
< As to what Ed mentioned about the link of text and music, I don't know for sure if voice is just "another instrument" or has some distinct independent aethetic factor in the music. At least sometimes text might have significant influence on music, and this final chorus feels like so, as it feels like to me... >
Most of my teachers and directors take the view that Bach wrote the vocal parts instrumentally. That is to say that they think in Bach's mind the voice was yet one more instrument. To support this evidence vocal teachers I have known often refer to the demanding lines Bach produces for both chorus and soloists--this in regard to the sixteenth note runs as quite instrumental. To my mind, sometimes the instrumental aspect of the chorus seems to carry the words in a very inspirational manner. At times, when the continuo sustains and the other instrumentation is light, the singers seem to carry the day. Sometimes there is a well constructed balance. But when singers are instructed in Bach's music they are often told not to regard themselves too highly (as we are sometimes apt to do) but to see themselves as Bach would have--as just one more instrument in the total ensemble. When one takes into context the liturgical setting of Lutheran worship, and local young boys and sthat were older as the primary singers--one gets perspective. This is why my choice of singers in the soprano range is more toward the lyric quality if I am thinking in terms of Bach's music in church. There are a number of Lutheran choir directors who also choose for personal and historical reasons to focus on a lyric quality traditionally for their entire repetoire--I also think of the work of St. Olaf College, and they have web casts of many performances that you can listen to, and the young voices are very refreshing.

In terms of Bach in professional concerted settings I am sometimes enthralled by the amazing voices that God-given gifts and professional training have produced, and I enjoy the more operatic qualities. From some of these performances perhaps at times it could seem as though the singers are more important, and certainly they deserve to be featured in the publicity before concerts for all their efforts, but in my view it is most in the line of tradition to think of the singer as one more instrument. Thereby, a unity of purpose may be more easily attained.

I'm glad that you enjoyed this work so much, and best wishes for all your continuing endeavors.

Jean Laaninen wrote (February 24, 2008):
As I had raised some questions about the recitatives over the past weeks, Brad Lehman sent me a link to an article that he posted on the web a while back detailing some aspects of the recitative form. I have excerpted a quote from this article that seems relevant to me, to share with the group:

"Overall: the accompaniment is there to heighten the intensity of the singer's delivery...which itself must already be committed and intense, like the spoken word that has already crossed into the realm of pitches, because a merely spoken delivery is not enough to contain it! The point is for everybody to put the message across as vividly as possible: the singer as (by far) the most important, supported by accompaniment that punctuates and affirms it. The accompaniment is like an eager group sympathetically nodding along with the points the singer is making, interjecting the equivalent of "amen!" "preach it, brother!" to heighten what is being said/sung."

Brad's article makes it clear to me that the questions I raised about syncopation in the recitative are probably not where the focus belongs--but rather to the side of communication.

If anyone would like to read Brad's article in its entirety or check out the bibliography here is the link:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/recits.htm

Ed Myskowski wrote (February 24, 2008):
Introduction to BWV 34

Brad Lehman wrote (Feb. 2004):
>Has anybody pointed out the thematic ties that alto aria (Mvt. 3) has with the "O Mensch, bewein" chorus of the St Matthew Passion (BWV 244)? The instrumental parts are so similar!<
More recently, we have been speculating (I think it is OK if I say that with reference to myself?) on other connections among cantatas of 1726 and SMP (BWV 244). Suddenly, I feel I am in good company!

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