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Recordings & Discussions of Cantatas : Cantatas BWV 1-50 | Cantatas BWV 51-100 | Cantatas BWV 101-150 | Cantatas BWV 151-200 | Cantatas BWV 201-224 | Cantatas BWV Anh | Order of Discussion |
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Recordings & Discussions of Cantatas : Cantatas BWV 1-50 | Cantatas BWV 51-100 | Cantatas BWV 101-150 | Cantatas BWV 151-200 | Cantatas BWV 201-224 | Cantatas BWV Anh | Order of Discussion |
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Ich habe meine Zuversicht Discussions |
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Discussions in the Week of November 9, 2003 |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (November 9, 2003):BWV 188 - Introduction The chosen work for this week’s discussion (November 9, 2003) is the Solo Cantata ‘Ich habe meine Zuversicht’ (I have placed my confidence) for the 21st Sunday after Trinity. This cantata was based on Picander’s libretto, to which Bach added as a Sinfonia prelude (Mvt. 1) the first movement of his D minor Clavier Concerto BWV 1088, re-arranged for organ and orchestra. It was the first of a series featuring an obbligato organ. According to Schweitzer these were all performed at the Nicolai Church, because Bach wished to give the organist there, Johann Schneider, a chance to display his skills. Terry thinks that there is a possibility that Wilhelm Friedemann Bach set part of the music, but does not mention which parts. Certainly not the first two movements, which are definitely by his father. Neither the Epistle (Ephesians 6: 10-17) nor the Gospel (John 4: 46-54), is directly quoted in the libretto, which speaks of confidence in God’s power to govern our lives. Only the Epistle, verse 10, refers to in this theme: “Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.” Recordings BWV 188 has only three complete recordings, all of which come from complete cantata cycles: Rilling (1983) [1], Harnoncourt (1989) [2] and Leusink (1999) [3]. The details of the recordings can be found at the following page of the Bach Cantatas Website (BCW): Cantata BWV 188 - Recordings Additional Information In the page of recordings mentioned above you can also find links to useful complementary information: a. Original German text and various translations, three of which were contributed by members of the BCML: English (Francis Browne) and French (Jean-Pierre Grivois), and Hebrew (Aryeh Oron). b. Score in Vocal & Piano version and BGA Edition. c. Commentaries: in English by Simon Crouch (Listener’s Guide), and in Spanish by Julio Sánchez Reyes (CantatasDeBach). BWV 188 is the last sacred cantata to be discussed in the first round of weekly cantata discussions. Apart from this work, only 4 cantatas, all of them secular, remained to be discussed in the BCML! |
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Marie Jensen wrote (November 11, 2003):BWV 188 alto aria (Mvt. 4) Unerforschlich ist die Weise, We der Herr die Seinen führt. Selber unser Kreuz und Pein Muß zu unserm Besten sein Und zu seines Namens Preise. The ways of the Lord are past understanding.... An organ voice walks a meandering path. Calm, never stumbling, almost sounding improvised, but nevertheless - the right way. Below that a companion - a dark violoncello walks the same way. In the middle a soul sings about God leading him through life, and even bad times are good times. The overall impression - a quiet joy. The last sacred cantata aria to be reviewed on our four year long journey is in every way a pearl. Selber unser Kreuz und Pein Muß zu unserm Besten sein (BWV 188) |
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Neil Halliday wrote (November 13, 2003):One of the (many) attractions of the cantatas is the occasional appearance of a much-loved instrumental work, as a `prelude'. In this case we have one of the movements of BWV 1052 (the D minor concerto for harpsichord and strings) arranged for organ and orchestra. There appears to be some dispute as to the actual movement to be performed here; Robertson says that "A note on the only copy of the score of this cantata indicates that Bach meant the first movement... to be played", but in the booklet with the Rilling recording [1], written by Dr. Andreas Bomba, we have "..the score to this cantata was broken up...some material is missing, especially to the opening sinfonia (Mvt. 1)...this music can be shown to stem from BWV 1052...Here it is the finale; Bach had already used the first two movements in the cantata BWV 146." Organist Martha Schuster made the arrangement of the third movement of the concerto, heard in the Rilling recording [1], for oboes, strings and continuo, with concertato organ; this version is amazing for its drive and vitality, and features a bright organ registration which fairly sparkles on the treble stave notes of higher pitch. It's a joyful prelude to this cantata, whose basic message is "everything's right with the world, even when/if this is not apparent". Mvt. 2: Tenor aria. This movement ("Ich habe meine Zuversicht /Auf den getreuen Gott gericht") has something of the nature of a popular song. In the key of F major and in triple time, its cheerful mood and moderate, dance-like rhythm seem to grow on me with repeated hearings. Baldin has a fine, strong voice with suitable expression. Mvt. 3: Secco recitative, (and short arioso, for Bass). There are interesting chord progressions on "toten" and "Grausamen" (cruel God), readily seen with the piano reduction score, available at the BCW. I expect Richter would have made an interesting organ realisation of this; Rilling [1] gives a satisfactory `as notated' version with harpsichord. (I often think these recitatives, with their apparent lack of the rhythmic definition which characterises most other baroque music forms, have a parallel to the contemplative rythmn-free beginning of Indian ragas, (called `alap', which sets the mood of the piece), when given a musical/instrumental setting in the - apparently anachronistic - mid-20th century manner.) Mvt. 4: Alto aria. Marie's description of this aria, at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/6646 is excellent. Interestingly, the BGA shows this movement, in 4/4 "walking" time and key signature of E minor, to have been written with the obligato organ part in D minor. I expect Brad has covered the reason for this in his posts concerning temperament/organ tuning. The movement has an elaborate part for organ with triplet and demisemiquaver figures etc, which accompanies the alto's gentle, "quiet joy"; Schuster uses a tremolo stop which is fortunately not obtrusive, and remains appealing. (I normally dislike the tremolo stop on organ). Robertson has this to say: "Whittaker considers that the addition of the vocal part makes the number sound laboured. A look at the score shows how true this is... This is a case of a faulty adaptation of a previously existing movement." All I can say is he has not heard the Rilling recording [1]! (This is not the first time I disagree with Robertson and Whittaker; their condemnation of BWV 24 - "Ein ungefaerbt Gemüte von deutscher Treu and Güte' - as 'one of the most sterile things Bach ever wrote', appears to be little more than an early to mid-20th century Anglo/American dislike of the expression of German nationalism referred to in the title; I find much of interest in this trio). Julia Hamari has a magnificent voice with restrained vibrato, and the melismas on "Preise" are particularly enjoyable. Mvt. 5: Accompanied recitative (soprano). A striking start, with double-stopped string chords, is followed by a yearning, beautiful 4-part string setting, with the vocal line for soprano (Auger). Mvt. 6: Chorale. A straightforward setting ends the cantata, with Rilling displaying his usual excellence, in this type of movement. |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (November 22, 2003):BWV 188 - Recordings & Timings During last wI have been listening to 3 complete recordings of Cantata BWV 188: |
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No |
Conductor |
Year |
TT |
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Rilling |
1983 |
7:39 |
6:17 |
2:16 |
5:37 |
0:57 |
1:00 |
23:46 |
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Harnoncourt |
1989 |
7:38 |
8:06 |
2:00 |
5:42 |
0:34 |
0:50 |
24:50 |
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Leusink |
1999 |
- |
8:58 |
1:56 |
6:50 |
0:35 |
0:48 |
19:07 |
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The Two Arias |
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Philippe Bareille wrote (November 23, 2003):Aryeh Oron wrote: [2] < Kurt Equiluz (with Harnoncourt) is almost as good as Baldin, although his approach is more restrained. If I am not mistaken, he was 60 years old when he recorded this aria, but his age is hardly noticed. The introvert has confidence in his faith as much as the extrovert has > I haven't the Rilling performance [1] but Equiluz [2] at the end of his career was still an example to most of his younger colleagues. His singing in this beguiling aria is, as usual, full of subtle expressive nuance and always alert to the core message of the text. I also recommend the opening sinfonia (Mvt. 1), reworked from the last movement of the Concerto in D minor. The organist Herbert Tachezi is fantastic. The quick tempo captures perfectly the spirit of this powerful music. Helmut Wittek has just the few notes of a recitative to sing but his commitment to the text and expression are commendable. Esswood gives a sensitive performance but uneven in my opinion. This cantata is full of surprises and worth discovering. |
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Hans-Joachim Reh wrote (November 24, 2003):Aryeh Oron wrote: Conclusion Two days ago I attended a lecture about Cantata BWV 106 Actus Tragicus. The lecturer quoted Schweitzer by saying that certainly there is not even one Bach's fan, who has not thought to himself/herself that he/she would replace most of the two hundreds sacred cantatas with one Actus Tragicus. It is hard for me to accept this assumption. Don't get me wrong. I am very fond of Actus Tragicus. But I have found in almost all of Bach's sacred cantatas many moments of rare beauty and high inspiration; moments, and movements, and complete cantatas, I would not like to replace. I hope to be able to return to them many times in the future. The case of the two arias of Cantata BWV 188 is an absolute testimony of my conclusion. Rilling's recording [1] is my preferred recording of this cantata, the one to which I shall return. > You are absolutely right. But this is not only true for Bachs sacred cantatas. The other day I listened to BWV 205 (Aeolus) and to tell you the truth I couldn´t believe what I heard. I am a church-musician, (two weeks ago we performed BWV 100 one of my favorites, especially the first and last movement) so I never really cared much about Bachs seculacantatas. I thought I knew Bach and had heard at least all of his important music. But here one can hear Bach demonstrating Drama per musica on a level no other composer of his aera (later?) ever reached. In that first movement one can actally feel demolition, followed by a recitativ that I had a hard time enduring, because I was shook by the way Bach put this announcement of desaster into music. As if this wasn´t enough, the following aria brings relief and made me laugh, without nowing the text, until the point where die Daecher krachen. I am not aware of any music with more opera and drama. To complete this, movement No 11 (Zuruecke ...) with two horns, trumpets and Bass is one of those arias, where you sit back and wonder, how could he do it? Just horns and trumpets unbelievable BACH. |
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Jane Newble wrote (November 28, 2003):Although I am rather late because of buying and selling a house for an upcoming move to Scotland, I'd like to express some of what I felt about this cantata. The first aria (Mvt. 2) has a haunting melody, and is a confirmation of quiet faith and trust in God. In Him rests my hope, so firm and solid that nothing can shake it. But then reality sets in - the music with jagged notes breaking the lovely solidity and peace. Everything in life falls to pieces, dreams and hopes are shattered, people disappoint. It seems that there is nowhere to go. 'So ist doch Gott der allerbeste' sounds more like a cry of despair, a last resort. But it is a last resort that does not disappoint, because the confirmation of trust returns, this time with an undertone of the trauma and sadness experienced. Nevertheless, it is real, with the long notes again on 'ruhet' and 'feste'. The recitative (Mvt. 3) is consoling, explaining and exhorting to hold on to God despite everything. I like to think that it was Bach's intention to use the bass as a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ, as he so often does. The organ notes in the alto aria (Mvt. 4) express something of the bewilderment and non-understanding about the way life can take us. The alto voice underlines this in its almost weeping lament. The following recitative (Mvt. 5) and choral (Mvt. 6) come back to God as the only one to build on. It is my conviction that only someone who has been in the depths of despair could have written this music to harmonize so completely with the words. |
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Discussions in the Week of May 4, 2008 |
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Francis Browne wrote (May 2, 2008):BWV 188 Introduction The cantata for this week's discussion is BWV 188, Ich habe meine Zuversicht. As always Aryeh has provided details of the Cantata, recordings, translations, commentaries, musical examples etc at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV188.htm Dürr notes that this cantata belongs to the cycle whose texts were published in 1728-9 by Picander. Its composition therefore probably dates from 1728 (for performance on 17 October) or soon afterwards. Mvt. 1: Sinfonia In the nineteenth century the autograph score was broken up and sold in fragments . As a result most of the opening sinfonia is lost though enough survives to show that it was a version of the final movement of the lost violin concerto that Bach later arranged for harpsichord as BWV 1052. Dürr adds that the sinfonia required obbligato organ, and three oboes: (oboe I, II and taille) were added--whose parts have not survived, however, apart from the closing bars. He also states that today the cantata is usually per formed without its introductory sinfonia. In fact , of the four recordings available only Leusink [3] does not include the sinfonia. Bach of course uses other instrumental movements elsewhere in the cantatas and when this happens it often feels to me like meeting an old friend unexpectedly. But after the pleasure of recognition it is often difficult to see exactly why a particular movement has been included in the cantata . In the Oxford Composer Companion David Schulenberg suggests "The Sinfonia is ....a furious virtuoso movement, after which the opening aria, for tenor, oboe, and strings, sounds, appropriately, as a confident respite ('I have my assurance'). This is as plausible explanation as any, Mvt. 2: Tenor Aria This is the most substantial movement and will I suspect be the highlight of the cantata for most people. Dürr comments : "the first aria [is] a full-textured piece for strings with an oboe part that in places doubles the first violin and elsewhere achieves independence as a soloist. The introductory ritornello is dance-like in effect, resembling the Polonaise from the sixth French Suite. Its phrase structure fluctuates between two- and three-bar groups (twice 2 + 2 + 3 bars), which creates a hovering, relaxed impression. The tenor takes up the opening theme in the A section, sometimes indeed singing it in octaves with the top instrumental part, which causes an easy, unproblematic effect. The relatively brief middle section brings a sudden change of mood at the words `When all breaks, when all falls, when no one holds up loyalty or faith'. Here, lively string figuration and falling oboe motives* illustrate the text; and, significantly, only at the closing line of this section, 'God is indeed best of all', does the thematic material of the principal section return. Whittaker regards this aria as : "a number of outstanding beauty and one of the most grateful pieces of writing for that voice in the cantatas. The chief melody is winning in its graciousness [see example 371 at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Scores/BWV188-Sco.htm].... There is a felicitous touch in one portion to da ruhet meine Hoffnung feste' (`there rests my hope secure'), where a waving figure enters in imitation: [see example 372] The section `Wenn alles bricht, wenn alles fällt, wenn niemand Treu' und Glauben hält' ('When all breaks, when all falls, when nobody faithfulness and belief holds') has leaping figures in voice and continuo, dropping staccato passages for oboe, and the upper strings, massed into unison, picture the confusion of the world. 'So ist doch Gott der allerbeste' ('So is yet God the best of all') recalls the opening idea, and in five and four bars from the Da Capo are splendid leaps for violin, expressing exuberance at the thought that God is the best of all." [The word Zuversicht is important in this aria and also in BWV 197 next week. My German- English dictionary gives 'confidence, faith' The Wahrig Deutsches Wörterbuch suggests Vertrauen in die Zukunft (trust in the future) feste Hoffnung (firm hope) Uberzeugung (conviction); Langenscheidt suggests a firm belief that something positive will happen. The online http://wortschatz.uni-leipzig.de/abfrage/ gives a further idea of the word's range Synonyme: Aussicht, Chance, Erwartung, Hoffnung, Lichtblick, Optimismus, Zutrauen a.. vergleiche: Optimismus b.. ist Synonym von: Erwartung, Fortschrittsglaube, Glaube, Hoffnung, Hoffnungsfreude, Hoffnungsfunke, Optimismus, Vertrauen, Zutrauen c. wird referenziert von: Hoffnung, Vertrauen (The DWB of the Brothers Grimm is offline at the moment) Luther uses it 32 times in his translation of the bible, mainly in the psalms where the Authorised Version generally translates refuge. In poets such as Rist and Gerhardt, whose writings are used by Bach, it is often used with such words as Trost (consolation), Hoffnung ( hope), Heil (salvation). Perhaps to be very verbose and over -explicit we could say: Ich habe meine Zuversicht and Gott ist unsre Zuversicht would mean that God is the firm and unshakeable foundation for my unwavering conviction based on cfaith that whatever happens in the future will be for the best and -no matter how unlikely it may seem at times- will in the end prove to be positive, and this fundamental reassurance is my refuge from all life's troubles, a refuge that is secure since it is based on the omnipotent God.] Mvt. 3: Bass recitative Dürr comments : A plain secco recitative follows (no. 3), which flows into arioso* (with a change of time signature) for the closing paraphrase of Genesis 32.26. Schulenberg adds: An extended bass recitative concludes with an imitative setting of Jacob's words to the angel, `I will not let thee go, except thou bless me' (Genesis 32: 26); a rising melisma marks the crucial word 'segne' (`bless') Mvt. 4: Alto aria This aria has evoked very different reactions. Dürr thinks that it is probably the most significant piece in the cantata : "[It] is scored for alto voice, obbligato organ, and cello, which doubles the organ bass line in continuo style. Like the first aria, this movement has a hovering rhythm, here caused by the syncopated opening theme and the clustered figure-work of the upper organ part which is rhythmically articulated in multifarious ways. Whittaker - followed by Robertson - is far less positive. Robertson says : Whittaker considers that the addition of the vocal part makes the number sound laboured. A look at the score shows how true this is, the more the pity, for it is quite a long aria. This is a case of a faulty adaptation of a previously existing movement. I transcribe what Whittaker says in full: The number for alto, iii, recalls the first aria of BWV 169; it is an instrumental movement given to organ obbligato (written a tone lower) and a voice part adapted. In this case a 'cello doubles the left hand of the organist: [see Ex.373] for which there is no indication as to 8 or 16 ft. and no figuring. There is no continuo part proper; perhaps 8 ft. tone was intended in all these obbligati. The organ part sounds better without the vocal addition; the latter makes the number sound laboured. The first part of the text is devoid of suggestions for musical treatment - 'Unerforschlich ist die Weise, wie der Herr die Seine führt' ('Unfathomable is the way (in) which the Lord His own guides ') - and the elaborations mean nothing. The previously composed music does not prevent the remainder - 'Selber unser Kreuz and Pein muß zu unserm Besten sein, and zu seines Namens Preise' ('Even our cross and pain must to our best (interest) be, and to His name's glory') - from being admirably expressed in the vocal line, there are leaning tones on 'Kreuz' and 'Pein', Preise' rejoices in lengthy flourishes and the final words of this section are set in coruscating trills and leaps. 'Unserm Besten', however, does not mate comfortably with coloratura. Mvt. 5: Soprano recitative Dürr comments: "The brief recitative that precedes the plain concluding chorale (Mvt. 6) is scored with strings, which depict in concise but graphic figures the waning of earthly might (tremolos) and the eternity of God (held notes and ongoing accompaniment figures)." Whittaker, as usually more expansive says : The penultimate number is a fine little recitative for soprano. 'Die Macht der Welt verlieret sich' ('The might of the world loses itself') is heralded with crashing chords for strings, both lines of violins and violas being in double stopping, and followed by an arpeggio descent. 'Wer kann auf Stand and Hoheit bauen?' ('Who can on rank and position build?') is accompanied by detached chords. After a sustained chord to 'God but abides eternally', the strings pulsate in gentle repeated quavers, the prayer-motive, during' (It is) well for all who in Him trust' Mvt. 6: Chorale Whittaker notes: The melody of the final chorale is one of those secular tunes which curiously came to serve for hymns, 'Venus du and dein Kind' ('Venus thou and thy child'). Another instance is H. Isaak's 'O Welt, ich muß dich lassen' ('O World, I must thee leave'), which was originally Innsbruck, I must thee leave'. The melody of the song about the goddess of love came to be associated with two hymns- J. Heermann's 'Wo soll ich fliehen hin' and S. Weingärtner's (?) 'Auf meinen lieben Gott', and it is the first stanza of the latter which is set here: On my beloved God, Rely I in anguish and need; He can me always deliver From trouble, anguish and needs, My misfortune can He turn, Stands everything in His hands . For much more detailed information on this, see Thomas Braatz's discussion on the BCW: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Wo-soll-ich-fliehen-hin.htm Three questions: Is the choice of sinfonia (Mvt. 1) arbitrary or is it in someway connected with the cantata? Simon Crouch wrote about the tenor aria (Mvt. 2): "I must admit that I can't decide whether this is one of Bach's truly great movements or one of his near misses: Does he really make the most of developing that tune?" Is the alto aria (Mvt. 4) 'a faulty adaption of a previously existing movement? What do you think? These are not rhetorical questions to which I know the answer, but they are questions which after listening to this cantata for some time seem worthy of consideration and I hope the discussion will produce a range of views to illuminate this cantata .The more I have got to know this music the more I have enjoyed it. But of course no one should feel obliged to deal with these particular questions and while I greatly appreciate the contributions of the regular stalwarts it would be good if some of the many new members of the list could also share their views. |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (May 2, 2008):Francis Browne wrote: < In the Oxford Composer Companion David Schulenberg suggests "The Sinfonia (Mvt. 1) is ....a furious virtuoso movement, after which the opening aria (Mvt. 2), for tenor, oboe, and strings, sounds, appropriately, as a confident respite ('I have my assurance'). This is as plausible explanation as any, > I'm not sure if many of these recycled concerto movements serve any programmatc purpose other than as an overture to a significant work. 19th century commentators exhausted themselves trying to figure out the "meaning" of the Overture to Händel's "Messiah". All kids of inventive fantasies were conconcted: the minor key Grave was the sadness of the Israetlites waiting for the Messiah while the major key Allegro was their joy at the Messiah's approach. For Händel it was probably just a French overture which symbolized the beginning of all his operas and oratorios. I suspect that Bach's sinfonias are the same: curtain-raisers without any particular program. Nor are they inserted because Bach's choir was hung-over or decimated from the plague. One question though. Do other composers start adding overtures to their cantatas in this period? Is it a new fashion? |
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John Pike wrote (May 3, 2008):Francis Browne wrote: < The word Zuversicht is important in this aria and also in BWV 197 next week. My German- English dictionary gives 'confidence, faith' The Wahrig Deutsches Wörterbuch suggests Vertrauen in die Zukunft (trust in the future) feste Hoffnung (firm hope) Uberzeugung (conviction) ; Langenscheidt suggests a firm belief that something positive will happen. The online http://wortschatz.uni-leipzig.de/abfrage/ gives a further idea of the word's range Synonyme: Aussicht, Chance, Erwartung, Hoffnung, Lichtblick, Optimismus, Zutrauen a.. vergleiche: Optimismus b.. ist Synonym von: Erwartung, Fortschrittsglaub, Glaube, Hoffnung, Hoffnungsfreude, Hoffnungsfunke, Optimismus, Vertrauen, Zutrauen c. wird referenziert von: Hoffnung, Vertrauen (The DWB of the Brothers Grimm is offline at the moment) Luther uses it 32 times in his translation of the bible, mainly in the psalms where the Authorised Version generally translates refuge. In poets such as Rist and Gerhardt, whose writings are used by Bach, it is often used with such words as Trost (consolation), Hoffnung ( hope), Heil (salvation). Perhaps to be very verbose and over -explicit we could say: Ich habe meine Zuversicht and Gott ist unsre Zuversicht would mean that God is the firm and unshakeable foundation for my unwavering conviction based on committed faith that whatever happens in the future will be for the best and -no matter how unlikely it may seem at times- will in the end prove to be positive, and this fundamental reassurance is my refuge from all life's troubles, a refuge that is secure since it is based on the omnipotent God.] > The word "Zuversicht" also appears in BWV 138/4, the glorious Bass aria "Auf Gott steht meine Zuversicht", which Bach later used in the Lutheran Mass in G major, BWV 236. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 3, 2008):Douglas Cowling wrote: < One question though. Do other composers start adding overtures to their cantatas in this period? Is it a new fashion? > No it wasn't new, it was quite the norm to have instrumental introductions called either "sinfonia" "concerto" or "sonata" to open up a cantata. Of Bach's peers (and friends), Graupner and Telemann used opening instrumental sonatas and sinfonias in their cantatas. Bach's sinfonias are definitely longer though, But there are some real beauties in the Telemann opus. In an interesting example, Christoph Graupner actually used a single movement Ouverture (and calls it precisely that) for a homage birthday cantata in honor of his patron, Ernst Ludwig of Hessen-Darmstadt performed on December 26, 1726, so it's lavishly scored for 2 Trumpets, timpani, 2 Oboes, Strings and Continuo. Ernst Ludwig was an avid Francophile (composer and dancer and actor too!), so what better way to celebrate his birthday than to capture his essence in French styled music? I have an mp3 recording of this Ouverture if anyone would like a copy, write to me off-list, or maybe the file could be placed in the Cantata website for easy access. |
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Thérèse Hanquet wrote (May 3, 2008):Francis Browne wrote: < [...] Mvt. 3: Bass recitative Dürr comments : A plain secco recitative follows (no. 3), which flows into arioso* (with a change of time signature) for the closing paraphrase of Genesis 32.26. Schulenberg adds: An extended bass recitative concludes with an imitative setting of Jacob's words to the angel, `I will not let thee go, except thou bless me' (Genesis 32: 26); a rising melisma marks the crucial word 'segne' ('bless' > Just something that struck me while reading, the end of the bass recitative: "Drum lass ich ihn nicht, er segne mich denn" reminds me of the heading of the recently discussed BWV 157 : "Ich lasse dich nicht, du segnest mich denn!". Is there some link between both cantatas? Apart that both texts were by Picander. There is also a (beautiful) motet with the same heading (BWV Anh 159) by Johann Christoph Bach (and JSB?) which was recorded by Cantus Cölln. I recommend the whole double CD: Amazon.com | Amazon.de | Amazon.co.uk |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (May 3, 2008):Francis Browne wrote: < BWV 188 Introduction Mvt. 2: Tenor Aria -This is the most substantial movement and will I suspect be the highlight of the cantata for most people. > What an enjoyable beginning. Also interesting for me is the balanced form found in the text of this aria, and with some parallels in poetic arrangement in Mvt. 4 and Mvt. 6. As a singer I often look at the text while listening--using the one from Emmanuel Music, observing pronunciation endings at the end of each phrase. In singing one must be careful not to drop the ending sounds, and where there are poetic parallels I find the patterns ease the learning process. The tenor aria (Mvt. 2) is beautiful, as well as the bass recitative. In Mvt. 4 I love the use of the organ and the drama of the poetry. I was surprised by the brevity of the soprano recitative (Mvt. 5). Thanks, Francis, for the detailed descriptions of instrumentation you have provided. |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (May 3, 2008):BWV 188 Provenance Thomas Braatz contributed Provenance page for Cantata BWV 188. See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Ref/BWV188-Ref.htm |
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Neil Halliday wrote (May 3, 2008):Francis Browne wrote: (quoting Whittaker, on the alto aria (Mvt. 4)); >The first part of the text is devoid of suggestions for musical treatment - 'Unerforschlich ist die Weise, wie der Herr die Seine führt' (`Unfathomable is the way (in) which the Lord His own guides< Whittaker misses a very obvious point here, made even clearer if "führt" is translated as "leads"; the opening organ motif (seven notes) serves as the basis of a little canon between organ and voice that is heard several times, first time when the alto first sings the two syllables of "führt" - the organ simultaneously begins the seven note motif, which the voice immediately adopts for the repeat of the text beginning with "unfathomable", so we have this "unfathomable leading (of God)" expressed musically in canonical form. It seems unusually appropriate to me. The setting of "Kreuz" and "Pein" with chromatic harmonies and "Preise" with a particularly lovely melisma also seems made to fit. I sometimes wonder if Whittaker has ever heard a satifactory performance. Rilling's recording [1] with Hamari is a delight, not a hint of a "laboured" vocal line, and with a bright organ registration. Rilling omits the double bass from the continuo, a wise move since the organ bass is playing the same line as the continuo; the cello alone adds the right touch. Who needs an explanation for the 3rd movement of the D minor concerto with organ obbligato as an overture? Sheer delight... I've enjoyed the entire Rilling CD, with BWV 188, BWV 190, BWV 191 and BWV 192. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 3, 2008):Kim Patrick Clow wrote: < I have an mp3 recording of this Ouverture if anyone would like a copy, write to me off-list, or maybe the file could be placed in the Cantata website for easy access. > The moderator was kind enough to create a Graupner webpage along with two audio samples: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Graupner/Music.htm The two clips are from 1. The Ouverture to the 1726 birthday homage cantata for Landgraf Ernst Ludwig Hessen-Darmsadt "Bey Paucken und Trompeten Schall" 2. The chorale from one of Graupner's Leipzig audition cantatas in Janurary 1723, "Lobet den Herrn alle Heyden." Many thanks to Aryeh ;) |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (May 3, 2008):Kim Patrick Clow wrote: < The moderator was kind enough to create a Graupner webpage along with two audio samples: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Graupner/Music.htm > Thanks so much for these clips. It is always instuctive for us to hear the music of Bach's contemporaries in performance rather relegated to bland comparisons in studies of Bach and Händel. The full-blown two movement Overture is particularly interesting because Bach didn't use that convention, preferring to assimilate the French overture into the opening chorus. Such a grand overture does give us a context for Bach's concerto-movement sinfonias. The chorale is very sweet and elegant even if the orchestral rotornellos are a little repetitive. Keep these clips coming! |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 3, 2008):Douglas Cowling wrote: < The full-blown two movement Overture is particularly interesting because Bach didn't use that convention, preferring to assimilate the French overture into the opening chorus. Such a grand overture does give us a context for Bach's concerto-movement sinfonias. > The ouverture is from a secular cantata, although there are instances where Graupner did use instrumental preludes in the sacred cantatas. The nature of the research in Graupner's sacred music is very limited, even at this rather late date (I use the phrase late meaning, his music has been known for quite some time and the manuscripts have been available for research for many many years). While his instrumental works have been catalogued (GWV system), the efforts at the vocal works has just recently started, and with 1500 cantatas, it's going to take quite some time. I say all this to preface that Graupner could have indeed used a choral version of the ouverture form in his sacred cantatas, but so far I don't know. His cantatas seem to stress brevity, and I don't know why. It could have been the requirements for Darmstadt, which was more affected by Pietism than Leipzig, or it could have been a practical matter, since Graupner wrote out all the parts himself: using long ritornellos and huge movements just simply more work for a man who was already at the breaking point with being overworked. Maybe the brevity was a stylistic feature for him? < The chorale is very sweet and elegant even if the orchestral rotornellos are a little repetitive. > Yes, that's Graupner's approach in handling chorales: he never touches the main melody EVER; and saves the real fireworks for the orchestral forces. Because of this and maybe because the Darmstadt court attended the services in the chapel would sing with the chorale, I suppose maybe the instrumental backdrops had to be consistent. While the sound clip I provided was written for St. Thomas Church in Leipzig in Jan of 1723, apparently Graupner's compositional style didn't change because of the circumstance. < Keep these clips coming! > Kevin Mallon is definitely interested in recording some Graupner CD(s) for Naxos and I'm hoping to convince him to do a recording of the St. Thomas audition cantatas of Telemann and Graupner. Thanks ;) |
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Peter Smaill wrote (May 3, 2008):BWV 188 Chorale (Mvt. 6) Apart from the excellent notes on the provenance of this Cantata, the BCW also offers an interesting analysis of the Chorale, "Auf meinen lieben Gott", otherwise known as "Wo soll ich fliehen hin". Two passing thoughts on this. The chorale was previously encountered in BWV 5, for the 19th Sunday in Trinity, 15 October 1724. This setting is for 21st Sunday in Trinity, but falls on almost exactly the same calendar date, 17 October (1728). Perhaps this is an isolated and coincidental example of recurrence following the calendar rather than the Church Year. It is true that other settings such as is found in BWV 136 do not fall at this time. However, the similarity there is, as in BWV 188, Bach pitching the Chorale (Mvt. 6) very high in the treble register, in both cases giving a brilliance to the faith-asserting close. In BWV 188, the sopranos hit high G, in BWV 136 (one of Bach's most exquisite settings) an A. (Is that the highest treble note in any of Bach's chorale harmonisations, only elsewhere found in a semi quaver in the closing chorale to the SMP (BWV 244), "Herzlich lieb hab' ich dich..."?) |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (May 4, 2008):Douglas Cowling wrote: >> One question though. Do other composers start adding overtures to their cantatas in this period? Is it a new fashion?<< Kim Patrick Clow wrote: >No it wasn't new, it was quite the norm to have instrumental introductions called either "sinfonia" "concerto" or "sonata" to open up a cantata. Of Bach's peers (and friends), Graupner and Telemann used opening instrumental sonatas and sinfonias in their cantatas. Bach's sinfonias are definitely longer though, But there are some real beauties in the Telemann opus.< See BWV 150 (Bachs <Opus 1, as it were>, according to JEGardiner notes), Mvt. 1 Sinfonia. Not long at all, at the outset of Bach's cantatas. Although I have not yet had the time to access the posted clips, I agree with the principle of getting as many relevant music examples as possible available on BCW. Especially those putting Bach in the context of his peers (and friends), an important and easily overlooked idea. |
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Francis Browne wrote (May 7, 2008):BWV 188 recordings and three questions Since the earlier discussions of the BWV 188 in 2003, there has only been one new recording of this cantata -Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra and choir [4]. I'm sorry to say that I do not think this recording brings any fresh illumination to the cantata. The opening Sinfonia (Mvt. 1) seems lacklustre in comparison with Rilling [1] and the tenor aria (Mvt. 2) is taken at a skimble-skamble breakneck pace that makes it impossible for the music to achieve its effect. Other movements are somewhat better. Of the earlier recordings that by Rilling [1] seems to be most successful. Neil Halliday has already made perceptive and judicious comments on this recording in the earlier discussion, and I have nothing original to add. There is much also to enjoy in the Harnoncourt recording [2]. -- there is not what sometimes seems a perversely original interpretation and soloists perform well. As so often it was through the Leusink recording [3] and I first got to know this work. In listening to this cycle I always found something of a relief when the tenor part was taken by Nico van der Meel instead of Kurt Schoch, and here he gives a very enjoyable performance at a very uncharacteristically slow pace for Leusink. It is about three minutes longer than Koopman's [4] express train approach : it borders on the self-indulgent but I think that it is in keeping with the genspirit of the movement. In my introduction I asked three questions about this cantata. The discussions as often have taken a different route so I shall answer my questions - an occupational hazard for teachers. On the connection between the Sinfonia (Mvt. 1) and the cantata follows that I would agree with Douglas that it is probably misplaced ingenuity to try and suggest some link. It may be that the use of a Sinfonia (Mvt. 1) was determined by the particular circumstances of the production of a cantata -and such information is generally unrecoverable.It is surely sufficient simply to enjoy the music. Simon Crouch's question about whether the tenor aria (Mvt. 2) is a masterpiece or a near miss is more difficult. After repeated listening I have come to enjoy this aria greatly but it simply does not seem to be in the same class as e.g. Es ist vollbracht from BWV 159 or Wo zwei und drei versammelt sind BWV 42 or Ich habe genung BWV 82. "Zuversicht" here at least , even with the contrasting middle section, is not a concept that leads Bach to plumb the depths or scale the heights. In a way Zuversicht can border on complacency and perhaps not even Bach could make sublime music out of complacency. My last question was whether Robertson was right to regard the alto aria (Mvt. 4) as 'a faulty adaption of a previously existing movement'. Neil already expressed his disagreement with this view in the earlier discussion . Possibly it may again simply be my obtuseness but I can find no clear evidence of clumsy adaption. However, I have not found this aria as moving as such sensitive listeners as Jane Newble and Marie Jensen did in the previous dicussion, This marks the mid point of my period of introductions.The regular contributors have of course made valuable contributions on the weekly cantatas and much else besides. But I find it disappointing not to hear more from the many hundreds who have joined the list since the last discussion. Since they subscribe to the list I presume many listen to or study the cantata chosen each week - if you do so, why not share your thoughts and reactions with others who share your delight in Bach? |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (May 8, 2008):Francis Browne wrote: < Of the earlier recordings that by Rilling [1] seems to be most successful. > The Rilling recordings were my introduction to the Cantatas, and I spent a summer listening to a third of them as I checked them out from the ML on long playing records. I still find Rilling so satisfying--he seems to be such a master conductor. I also appreciate the efforts of the others greatly, but somehow Rilling did such a great job. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (May 8, 2008):Francis Browne wrote >In my introduction I asked three questions about this cantata. The discussions as often have taken a different route so I shall answer my questions - an occupational hazard for teachers.< An occupational hazard for students, as well? There was some response re the Sinfonia (Mvt. 1) (Question 1), and after all, it is only Wednesday. When is the exam? >But I find it disappointing not to hear more from the many hundreds who have joined the list since the last discussion. Since they subscribe to the list I presume many listen to or study the cantata chosen each week - if you do so, why not share your thoughts and reactions with others who share your delight in Bach?< I expect anyone who has taken the time to write a few introductions will share your sentiments. Although the current discussions may wander a bit (OK, a lot) the breadth of participation seems to me to be on the rise, as does the tone of civility. I would guess that many of the subscribers are much more comfortable reading English than they are writing it. The best we can do is try to provide an encouraging word when someone new does make the effort, which is quite considerable, if you thnk about it. I have been a little lax with comments on recordings, but not without consideration. The coverage has been quite thorough, I have been distracted by other commitments, and my opinions would be mostly in the nature of agreeing with other posted opinions. That is worth doing, I intend to add some current (and belated) thoughts. In particular, I share your enthusiasm for the Gardiner performance of BWV 149, and for the entire pilgrimage series of concert recordings. |
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Julian Mincham wrote (May 8, 2008):Questions Francis Browne wrote < My last question was whether Robertson was right to regard the alto aria (Mvt. 4) as 'a faulty adaption of a previously existing movement'. Neil already expressed his disagreement with this view in the earlier discussion . Possibly it may again simply be my obtuseness but I can find no clear evidence of clumsy adaption. However, I have not found this aria as moving as such sensitive listeners as Jane Newble and Marie Jensen did in the previous dicussion, This marks the mid point of my period of introductions.The regular contributors have of course made valuable contributions on the weekly cantatas and much else besides.But I find it disappointing not to hear more from the many hundreds who have joined the list since the last discussion. Since they subscribe to the list I presume many listen to or study the cantata chosen each week - if you do so, why not share your thoughts and reactions with others who share your delight in Bach? > I have more or less stopped contributing to discussions in recent weeks although I still read what interests me of the contributions. The reason is that I find the discussions only seldom focus upon the weekly cantatas and I too find disappointing as my main purpose for belonging to a 'Bach Cantata List' is that I am interested principally in what people have to say about the substance and performances of these great works. Of the latter, Neil, Ed and a couple of others?have done a pretty sterling job in keeping us up to informed about recordings and their pluses and minuses but?substantive comments on the canatatas tend to fizzle out very quickly, sometimes into interesting allied topics but as often not (speaking personally).Take out the comments on performances of the last, say, 200 contributions I would guess (haven't bothered to count 'em) that fewer than 10% of contribution are actually directly related to the music and texts. I know that there have been a number of occasions over the last year when i have commented upon specific aspects of a ?work and noone has followed them up and one can infer from this that many of those who do contribute prefer a broad brush and not to get too involved in discussions of the actual works. As you say, though, what about the others?. However on the matter of the alto aria (Mvt. 4) mentioned above I do take issue with some of the comments published by some of ?the professions--I reckon this aria to be the jewel of this work, a very powerful piece of musical rhetoric. But it raises a general issue which, I fear, probably eminates from Schweitzer's habit of suggesting, with absolutely no evidence, that an aria he doesn't like has been lifted from an earlier (inferior!) work. There are numerous examples but to take one, look at what he says about the tenor aria from BWV 38. He even suggests that the cantata is best performed without this movement and this is sheer nonsense as it is the central keystone movement with motivic links to other movements. But this sillyness seems to have caught on and i have come across a number of examples where commentators have made similar suggestions without offering any evidence other than a personal prejudice. My question therefore is this--is anyone aware of the existence of this alto aria (Mvt. 4) in any other work?? I'd be interested to know if it pre-existed or wheththis?is simply an unsubstantiated premise. The other offensive thing about this habit is the underlying assumption that?the earlier works were inherently 'inferior' ( BWV 106??----- I don't think so!) or became so because Bach subsequently reset them badly. The evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary. Bach seldom if ever created an 'inferior' piece through paraphrase or reworking. There are many example one could quote of his giving the material a wholly new and enlightening perspective. Whilst getting the bit between my teeth, there is also the matter of the long sinfonias taken from earlier works (much more common in the third cycle for some unexplained reason). Of course it's a nonsense to try to find direct?links between them and the rest of the cantatas they served to open. It is not a nonsense, however, to speculate upon why Bach might have chosen that particular existing work for this particular cantata and i think we can often find relevant clues to this. Or put another way, why did he NOT use several available works? Of the Brandenburg movements he used very few----1 and 3 are exceptions. Might this lack of drawing upon some of these great movements indicate that he was quite choosy about his choices of sinfonias and had clear criteria for selecting the most appropriate sinfonia for a recently composed cantata. As with so much about Bach we can't be certain, but that does not mean that the available clues should be disregarded. Finally Francis, I did about a dozen and a half intros last year and it was interesting to note the differences in responses--some attracted discussion others none at all. Maybe it's partly to do with whether people already know them or not--maybe they are just busy with other things that particular week. That's the way it goes I'm afraid---however I do support your plea for more comment on the substance works themselves. It doesn't always have to be technical. Some quite interesting and enthusiastic comments have come from music lovers who have heard the weekly cantata for the first time (I wish?I could go back to hearing some of?them for the first time myself!) Well, back to lurking mode. |
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Neil Halliday wrote (May 9, 2008):Julian Mincham wrote: >My question therefore is this--is anyone aware of the existence of this alto aria (Mvt. 4) in any other work? I'd be interested to know if it pre-existed or whether this is simply an unsubstantiated premise.< Hi Julian, the OCC makes no mention of pre-existing music in relation to the alto aria (Mvt. 4), nor do they comment on any perceived faulty textual adaptation, so I presume there is no real evidence for the premise/opinion held by Whittaker and Robertson in this case. It would certainly be an interesting discovery if such pre-existing music was identified. |
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Julian Mincham wrote (May 9, 2008):[To Neil Halliday] No I could never discover a source either?and I think this is simply part of the pernicious and ignorant? tradition of subscribing movements which the writer does not like or understand to mythical 'inferior' earlier compositions. |
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Neil Halliday wrote (May 10, 2008):Francis Browne wrote: >There is much also to enjoy in the Harnoncourt recording [2]. -- there is not what sometimes seems a perversely original interpretation and soloists perform well.< Yes, in fact if I can go by the samples I would probably choose Harnoncourt [2] in the first and second movements, and Rilling [1] for the remainder. I perceive a certain 'mechanical' articulation in places in Rilling's sinfonia (Mvt. 1), and while Kraus is more than satisfactory, I like the gentler more flowing approach of Harnoncourt/Equiluz [2] in the tenor aria (Mvt. 2). (Aryeh characterised this contrast as "extrovert (Rilling [1]) and introvert (Harnoncourt [2]). Rilling's [1] 'larger scale' alto aria (Mvt. 4), with Hamari's magnificent voice, is a clear leader, and his expression in the accompanied recitative is more moving than the others. I enjoyed Leusink's [3] tenor aria (Mvt. 2), and Koopman [4] has a fine alto voice. [The usual tiny portativ organs, especially in Harnoncourt [2], Leusink [3] and Koopman [4], are not necessarily the ideal for this music, IMO.] |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (May 10, 2008):Questions (BWV 188) Julian Mincham wrote: >No I could never discover a source either and I think this is simply part of the pernicious and ignorant tradition of subscribing movements which the writer does not like or understand to mythical 'inferior' earlier compositions.< There are analogies among BWV 188, BWV 146, and BWV 169. It would be structurally satisfying if the aria in BWV 188 were also derived from some earlier work, along with the opening sinfonia (Mvt. 1). Perhaps Bach was reusing materials with some special emotional, or musical (or both) content? What if this were true, but Whittaker did not think of it, and he was simply having a bad moment (pernicious and ignorant is a bit severe?) with respect to the BWV 188 aria? Note that Francis has compared Robertsons citation (only the negative comments by Whittaker), with the entire commentary by Whittaker, which is much more balanced. Worth reviewing. I think these three works would make a nice set for comparitive listening and analysis, at some point. Good to see that Julian has been enticed to write! |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (May 10, 2008):Of the two recordings I have, Leusink [3] omits the Mvt. 1 Sinfonia, and Harnoncourt [2] uses BWV 1052, Mvt. 1 (the same as Bach used for BWV 146), rather than Mvt. 3, as indicated by the BWV and as used by Rilling [1] (see Neil Halliday comments from 2003). Can anyone report on Koopman [4], just so we have a complete record. Question 2. I did not yet take the time to read the Simon Crouch comments, but I do not think I would call the tenor aria, Mvt. 2, a near miss, or a miss of any kind. I find the invention, the motto, reminiscent of the SMP final chorus (BWV 244/68), with the same rhythm, and a 3-2-3-4-3-2-1 (major) sequence, as opposed to 3-4-5-4-3-2-1 (minor) for SMP (BWV 244). Hope I got that right, corrections from musicians welcome. This gives it a comfortable, familiar feel (Zuversicht?), but nicely contrasted by the middle section, as Francis noted. If we consider the possibility that in works such as BWV 146, BWV 169, and BWV 188, Bach was reusing some favorite materials, perhaps we are getting close to Willliam Hoffmans idea of <the contented composer>? Can peace be sublime? Why not? We should give it a try some time. Thanks to Francis for the questions, and also for the nudge to respond. Hope I am timely for full credit. |
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Neil Halliday wrote (May 10, 2008):Ed Myskowski wrote: > Of the two recordings I have, Leusink [3] omits the Mvt. 1 Sinfonia, and Harnoncourt [2] uses BWV 1052, Mvt. 1 (the same as Bach used for BWV 146), rather than Mvt. 3, as indicated by the BWV and as used by Rilling [1] (see Neil Halliday comments from 2003). Can anyone repon Koopman [4], just so we have a complete record.< Does your Harnoncourt [2] really have the 1st movement of the D minor concerto as the Sinfonia (Mvt. 1) of BWV 188? Listening to the samples, I hear the 3rd movement for Rilling [1], Harnoncourt [2], and Koopman [4]. > I find the invention, the motto, reminiscent of the SMP final chorus (BWV 244/68), with the same rhythm, and a 3-2-3-4-3-2-1 (major) sequence, as opposed to 3-4-5-4-3-2-1 (minor) for SMP (BWV 244).< Interesting observation. I also appreciated Francis Browne's comment drawing our attention to the 'phrasing' of the ritornello, ie, two bars + two bars + three bars, repeated in the second half of the ritornello. It's one of those ritornellos with a melody that I like to learn by heart. |
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Stephen Benson wrote (May 10, 2008):Julian Mincham wrote: < I have more or less stopped contributing to discussions in recent weeks although i still read what interests me of the contributions. The reason is that i find the discussions only seldom focus upon the weekly cantatas Finally Francis, I did about a dozen and a half intros last year and it was interesting to note the differences in responses--some attracted discussion others none at all. Maybe it's partly to do with whether people already know them or not--maybe they are just busy with other things that particular week. That's the way it goes I'm afraid---however? I do support your plea for more comment on the substance works themselves. It doesn't always have to be technical. Some quite interesting and enthusiastic comments have come from music lovers who have heard the weekly cantata for the first time (I wish?I could go back to hearing some of?them for the first time myself!) > Julian, it's good to see you come out of your cave. Francis's observation on participation had me thinking as well, particularly since I'll be doing the introductions this summer, a task I take on with a certain amount of trepidation. We're all members for different reasons, whether it's to utilize the weekly format as a framework for our own listening, engage in meaningful discussion about music we love, share listening experiences, expound on pet theories, or enjoy the camaraderie of those sharing a common interest. I think I may speak for many on the list when I say that my primary goal when I joined several years ago was not so much to discuss the music of Bach as it was to learn about it. That educators, musicologists, and performers with busy lives were willing to share their knowledge about Bach in an open forum was a revelation. I've said from the beginning that Aryeh's website represents the very best that the Web can produce. Its discovery for me was like opening a door into an entirely new universe. As a relative latecomer to Bach, I pounced. What a feast! Where else could I indulge my new-found passion so effectively? Where else could I tap into such a wealth of information from those who know what they're talking about? I quickly learned what to expect from individual contributors, and it wasn't long before I found myself reacting with pleasure to the appearance of certain names in my mailbox: "Oh, good! A post from John Doe. I wonder what I'll learn from him today." (That’s one reason I was so happy to see a message from you, Julian.) That I, and others, sometimes infrequently comment on musicological matters may be more a result of the awareness of our own musical shortcomings than anything else. A disinclination to risk exposure in the presence of those who know so much is a natural phenomenon. I realize that this can place an unfair burden on a relatively small segment of the list, but I also know that the contributions you and others like you make perform an enormous service in spreading the word (and music!) of Bach. As one of those from whom you ask to hear more about the musical substance of the weekly cantatas, I feel a certain obligation to take on the role of introducing a number of the cantatas. It's a small price to pay for all I've received, and I'm already reaping the benefits of the preparatory work. A few weeks ago I played through the ten cantatas I'll be introducing and really got excited. What a fabulous collection! My introductions as a non-specialist will reflect, hopefully, my personal encounters with the music of Bach, experiences that focus on the transformative substance of the music, its sheer beauty, its variety, its humanity, its penetration into the human psyche, its magnificence. I just hope I won't make too much of an ass of myself (and suffer the fate of Midas in BWV 201!). At the same time, as much as I will be relying on those of you who know so much to keep things going, I also look forward to, and encourage contributions from, others like me who have so much to learn. And that brings me, Julian, to your wistful comment about wishing you could hear some of these cantatas again for the first time. Earlier this week, I was able to enjoy just that experience with BWV 188. I know, from you and from Dürr, that the alto aria (Mvt. 4) is generally regarded as providing the primary substance of the cantata, but I found myself immediately attracted to the relatively almost un-Bachlike homophony of the tenor aria (Mvt. 2), which actually struck me more as a tenor/oboe duet. The interplay and balance of those two voices goes well beyond the initial simple doubling effect of the oboe, a doubling which lulled me into thinking that that was all that was going on, and which made the divergence of the voices at measure 22 all the more strikingly pleasurable. (As Brad said in a recent post, "Yum!") This is also one of those movements where the Leusink [3], for me, takes pride of place. I haven't been a real fan of van der Meel, but his performance here (and Peter Frankenberg's on oboe) puts this movement on my 'favorites' list. And am I reading too much into the relative prominence of the oboe in BWV 188 to see it as evidence of support for Martin Geck's suggestion that it was during this period that, for the Leipzig period, instrumental concerns assumed greater importance? --- "The first performances of the last three works [BWV 156, BWV 174, and BWV 188] most likely took place between October 1728 and Whitsun 1729--the period when Bach took over the collegium musicum and significant new responsibilities. The obvious dominance of instrumental writing is a signal that the cantor Bach, except for a few exceptions in the area of chorale text cantatas, now finally bids farewell to the systematic and scheduled composition of cantatas, and in his place the kapellmeister Bach now takes the stage." One thing that struck me during my survey of this summer's cantatas was the brilliance of the instrumental writing, a characteristic I plan on exploring in my introductions. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (May 10, 2008):>> Of the two recordings I have, Leusink [3] omits the Mvt. 1 Sinfonia, and Harnoncourt [2] uses BWV 1052, Mvt. 1 (the same as Bach used for BWV 146), rather than Mvt. 3, as indicated by the BWV and as used by Rilling [1] (see Neil Halliday comments from 2003). Can anyone report on Koopman [4], just so we have a complete record.<< >Does your Harnoncourt [2] really have the 1st movement of the D minor concerto as the Sinfonia (Mvt. 1) of BWV 188? Listening to the samples, I hear the 3rd movement for Rilling [1], Harnoncourt [2], and Koopman [4].< Neil (and Harnoncourt [2]) have it correct. Thanks for catching my hasty error, and for confirming that Koopman [4] also follows BWV 1052/3. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (May 10, 2008):Stephen Benson wrote: >I think I may speak for many on the list when I say that my primary goal when I joined several years ago was not so much to discuss the music of Bach as it was to learn about it. That educators, musicologists, and performers with busy lives were willing to share their knowledge about Bach in an open forum was a revelation.< I share those sentiments, and will use the opportunity to again thank the experts who have shared their knowledge and opinions. The material available in the BCW archives is truly astounding, and the weekly discussions never fail to add something new, even when participation is thin. >That I, and others, sometimes infrequently comment on musicological matters may be more a result of the awareness of our own musical shortcomings than anything else. A disinclination to risk exposure in the presence of those who know so much is a natural phenomenon.< I share those sentiments, as well. Early on, I took Aryeh to heart, when he encourages everyone to write, even if only to say one enjoys (or not) a particular recording. I quickly realized that I listen more carefully when intending to write something, despite lack of any particular expertise. That in itself provides incentive to continue posting on a regular basis. To those who have not already done so, give it a try. The inevitable inaccuracies (and occasional blunder) have been promptly, and usually politely, corrected. Simple differences of opinion have often led to enlightening discussion. No matter the number of subscribers, the discussion is only as good as the active participants, who strike me as being on the rise in number. That in turn makes it less damaging when regular posters feel the need to take a break, for whatever reason. |
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Julian Mincham wrote (May 10, 2008):[To Stephen Benson] Hi Steve thanks for your comments--much appreciated. I am touched that you have found some of my comments of interest. I suspect you may be in a minority as i have found in recent months that most of my comments havenot really been taken up by other members and it did lead me to wonder, if i was being too technical or esoteric (I hope not) or just plain tedious. I don't have much to offer on many of the threads----guitar issues for example will interest many but I don't see their relevence in a Bach cantata list. (Maybe I have missed something!) However your posting giving your reasons for being a member of the group prompted me to think along similar lines. Like yourself I found Aryeh's website to be a revelation, a source of material, processes and ideas quite unique in the field. For some years I used it on a daily basis and am now frustrated because i cannot access it from my, my son's or wife's computer at home (although I can from computers outside the home---- I have changed search engines, router, in fact everything I can think of to no avail---it remains a mystery). Fortunately although this is frustrating it is not as catastrpohic as it once would have been when access to scores and texts were really important to me before I bought the Barenreiter scores and other resources in recent years. But returning to the reasons for being a list member for me they are two fold. The first, as with yourself, is to learn. I have learnt a great deal from both present and past correspondence, particularly when ideas or opinions come up that force me back to the scores and recordings to re-consider some aspects anew. This is really stimulating especially when comments focuses upon the weekly works, a point already well laboured. My second reason is to offer what I can if it may be of any interest to others. I can offer a knowledge of the repetoire gained through performing some of the works, hearing them all; and my present project of reading through them from the full scores at the keyboard. This is a bit of a hit or miss venture---reading the big choruses from score is more a missing than a hitting of many of the the notes but the chorales are easy and many of the arias, with only a continuo bass line or with one obligato instrument, are such that one can get most of the music under the fingers pretty successfully plus a few extra notes to fill out the harmonies. For me this gives a perspective of the cantatas which is especially illuminating giving many insights, a number of which I have not yet seen published. I remember the English pianist Denis Mathews who used to read through symphonies and string quartets at the keyboard saying--explore it with your fingers--it gives you insights into the music that nothing else will provide. I think he was spot on. I am very happy to continue to contribute if my bits and pieces are of any value. And, as I said before I continue to read (most) contributions as well |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (May 11, 2008):BWV 188, alto aria (Mvt. 4, including sinfonia; Mvt. 3 per Robertson): Some of you may have an interest in observing a thoughtful, if somewhat negative opinion, Whittaker as quoted at length by Francis Browne, evolving into opinions in the category which Julian has characterized as <pernicious and ignorant>: Robertson (citing Whittaker): <This is a case of a faulty adaptation of a previously existing movement.> Crouch: <Robertson suggests that this is a hurried adaptation of another work.> |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 11, 2008):[To Ed Myskowski] I'm sorry I have to agree with the negative reviews: it's not Bach at his best; and the world isn't going to end because someone states this. Even JEG mentions that some of the cantatas (entire cantatas, not just single movements) are not Bach's best efforts. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (May 11, 2008):[To Kim Patrick Clow] I believe you have missed my point, which was not about the quality of the music, but about the evolution of the published opinions, each citing the previous with increasing negativity, and emphasis on derivation and haste. I am becoming fond of the phrase <pernicious and ignorant>. By definition, about one half (or 49.9%) of Bach's music is below average, for Bach. Brad Lehman made this point at one time, and I am passing it along. Way below average Bach is still pretty fine music to my ears. If not to yours, OK with me. Good news! The world is not about to end anytime soon. People may end, but that is more or less up to Us, or Whomever. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 11, 2008):Ed Myskowski wrote: > I believe you have missed my point, which was not about the quality of the music, but about the evolution of the published opinions, each citing the previous with increasing negativity, and emphasis on derivation and haste. I am becoming fond of the phrase <pernicious and ignorant>. < I blame the Internet myself.... > By definition, about one half (or 49.9%) of Bach's music is below average, for Bach. Brad Lehman made this point at one time, and I am passing it along. Way below average Bach is still pretty fine music to my ears. If not to yours, OK with me. < Yah, John Elliot Gardiner made the same point too. I was just passing that along as well. > Good news! The world is not about to end anytime soon. People may end, but that is more or less up to Us, or Whomever. < I'll pass that along to the Doomsday prophet I see on the subway, he's going to be miffed. |
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Neil Mason wrote (May 11, 2008):Julian Minchan wrote to Stephen Benson: < Hi Steve.thanks for your comments--much appreciated. I am touched that you have found some of my comments of interest. I suspect you may be in a minority as i have found in recent months that most of my comments havenot really been taken up by other members and it id lead me to wonder, if I was being too technical or esoteric (I hope not) or just plain tedious. I don't have much to offer on many of the threads----guitar issues for example will interest many but I don't see their relevence in a Bach cantata . (Maybe I have missed something!) > I second the comments. I apologise for not having the time to be more active myself, but continue to lurk with interest! |
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Julian Mincham wrote (May 11, 2008):[To Kim Patrick Clow] Two quite different points seem conflated here. The first is that a number of writers have adapted the strategem of assuming an earlier 'inferior' work as the basis of a movement they dislike. I addressed this in my earlier email. The second concerns the quality of the alto aria (Mvt. 4), about which personal tastes will obviously vary but which I consider to be a very fine and undervalued piece. of music. As always I am willing to justify my opion and in this context i append below some notes written some time ago for a programme for this cantata. As for the 'world not ending' because a view is expressed about some of Bach's music being below par I would refer Kim to the discussion of the opening chorus of a cantata discussed a few weeks ago (can't recall the number but it was the one using the figure from the Eb prelude WTC 1).I suggested it was decidedly under par Bach--This was the cantata which prompted Brad's comments (recently referred to by Ed) about the high average line of his output. I don't think that the rhetoric of ending world actually helps serious discussion: if, indeed that is something to which we aspire Anyway, whether you like the aria or not this is my evaluation of it:-- The alto aria (Mvt. 4), the fourth of six movements, does not hold the precise central place in the cantata but it feels like it. This dark and dramatic piece, accompanied by the organ with a ‘cello doubling the bass line is, like the tempestuous sinfonia (Mvt. 1) and the reflective chorale (Mvt. 6), set in the minor, in this case Em which Bach often uses for texts referring to the crucifixion. But the cross and pain referred to here are not those of Christ but individual ones which humans cannot escape. By implication there is an analogy between the pain of Christ and that of Mankind, but the full intricacies of this situation cannot be explained because the Lord’s way is inscrutable and incomprehensible. The moral is clear: it is ultimately for the best that we, like Christ, should suffer but we are incapable of fathoming God’s reasons as to why this should be so. Our only possible response is to resign to inevitability and to praise the Lord in whom we trust. The images of pain and inscrutability seem to be the two that particularly stimulated Bach’s imagination. The initial organ obligato line is not impenetrable; but it is complex, profound and it increases in complexity bar by bar. A quaver and a crotchet are soon followed by semi-quavers, demi-semi-quaver skirls and finally runs of triplets. The rhythmic complexities of the melody continue as the organ unfolds its obligato against the almost equally intricate vocal line. Bach has set himself the seemingly impossible challenge of depicting the unfathomable by means of the perfectly comprehensible; a complex and ever-changing kaleidoscope of richly entwined rhythms and melodies. The form of the aria was much used by Bach at this period of his career, a ternary (A B A) structure in which the ‘A’ section is rewritten principally in order for it to return to, and therefore end in, the tonic key. Section ‘A’ ends at bar 27 and a shortened version of the ritornello theme, concentrating principally upon the triplet figuration, leads to the ‘B’ or middle section (beginning bar 31). The text now emphasises the pain we suffer from the crosses we bear and the vocal line leans on these words with clear implications of sighing and moaning. There is very little of the major mode in this aria although the middle section does contrive to end in Gmaj, perhaps an indication of the light the Lord brings to us despite our lack of understanding of His purpose. The minimally altered reprise of the A section begins in bar 48 and takes us through to the last ritornello statement, shortened and revised in order to maintain the intensity. This aria, once heard, is not quickly forgotten. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 11, 2008):Julian Mincham wrote > As for the 'world not ending' because a view is expressed about some of Bach's music being below par I would refer Kim to the discussion of the opening chorus of a cantata discussed a few weeks ago (can't recall the number but it was the one using the figure from the Eb prelude WTC 1).I suggested it was decidedly under par Bach--This was the cantata which prompted Brad's comments (recently referred to by Ed) about the high average line of his output. I don't think that the rhetoric of ending world actually helps serious discussion: if, indeed that is something to which we aspire < I appreciate your thoughts about this; truly I do. After seeing the thread dicuss the thoughts about this particular aria, I went ahead and listened to it, because I wasn't familiar with it. After I hearing it, I had to agree with some of the negative views expressed that it wasn't good (I was being nice saying it was subpar). See, a perfect example of the purpose of this group: to inspire folks to listen to something they never heard of, and engage in discussion about it. I also have pointed out this is something John Elliot Gardiner has done as well, except he's stated entire cantatas are sub-par, not just single movements. It's not a sweeping indictment about Bach, it wasn't meant as a scientific study on how many cantatas are masterpieces and how many aren't, it was simply reflection on my hearing the music. As for rhetoric? That's my choice of words and I'll stand by them. But aesthetics can be a tricky thing. There was a study conducted to test the theory that the claims that a Strad plays better than any other type of violin and this can be heard by anyone that had a good ear. A panel of experts was gathered, made up of performers, critics, conductors, etc, to hear to sample violins, and to rate each violin they heard played. The results? Not a single person ranked the Strad number one (some had it near the bottom of their list) and several of them had picked an "inferior" as the best violin, giving it effusive words of praise for its rich warm sound. When told they picked the inferior model, the looks of disbelief on the panel was priceless. During the 1991 Mozart celebrations, there was a concert given where an unknown piece of Mozart was played with music by his peers, and after the concert,listeners were asked to give their thoughts and pick which piece was the Mozart. The results: Mozart's peers fared better and no one correctly identified the real Mozart piece. Which raises all sorts of interesting questions about why we pick the standards we do; and all but ignore the other great masters that Mozart and Haydn and Bach admired so much ;) Great thread. I hope I'm not thrown to the tenth circle of Hell for typing I found a Bach aria boring ;) |
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Bob Brennan wrote (May 11, 2008):I also have pointed out this is something John Elliot Gardiner has done as well, except he's stated entire cantatas are sub-par, not just single movements. It's not a sweeping indictment about Bach, it wasn't meant as a scientific study on how many cantatas are masterpieces and how many aren't Not sure if it has been noted in these threads that Bach was writing his cantatas at the unfathomable pace of approximately one per week. Many sound to me as if they'd taken months or even years to compose. The fact that some, upon scrutiny, may be judged or ranked comparatively higher than others (as may also be the case with his 200+ organ works) seems irrelevant to me. Taken as a whole, the cantatas Bach composed over a period of several years are, in totality, nothing short of a staggering feat. Throw in a few ingenious masses, concertos and assorted other miscellanies and you have a cumulative body of work that simply defies reason. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 11, 2008):Bob Brennan wrote: < Not sure if it has been noted in these threads that Bach was wrhis cantatas at the unfathomable pace of approximately one per week. Many sound to me as if they'd taken months or even years to compose. The fact that some, upon scrutiny, may be judged or ranked comparatively higher than others (as may also be the case with his 200+ organ works) seems irrelevant to me. Taken as a whole, the cantatas Bach composed over a period of several years are, in totality, nothing short of a staggering feat. Throw in a few ingenious masses, concertos and assorted other miscellanies and you have a cumulative body of work that simply defies reason. > Context is everything: but let me restate this for the third time: an aria was mentioned in some cantata commentary as not being top notch Bach. I listened to it, and agreed with those assessments. Others on the think said aria is fine. Great. We had a discussion. That's what this forum is all about, correct? I think everyone on this list adores Bach's music (I definitely do), and everyone here is very aware of Bach's achievements as a composer, and the constraints he worked under. Certainly John Eliott Gardiner is no slouch on things Bach and knows this. Yet, he was quite at ease making his statement about some of the cantatas being sub-par. |
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Julian Mincham wrote (May 11, 2008):[To Kim Patrick Clow] So if others give an opinion in print we need to abide by it? Take note of it yes--but agree with it ?? possibly not. I guess that if one has only heard a work a couple of times it is easy to take on board the views of others. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 11, 2008):Julian Mincham wrote: > So if others give an opinion in print we need to abide by it? < Nope. That's why I brought up the two examples of silliness with musical asthetics with the Strad and Mozart stories. Be true to yourself. I read the comments about this aria, I listened to it; and didn't think much of it. That's all > Take note of it yes--but agree with it ?? possibly not. < Definitely! |
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Julian Mincham wrote (May 11, 2008):Alto aria (Mvt. 4) Kim Patrick Clow wrote: < I read the comments about this aria (Mvt. 4), I listened to it; and didn't think much of it. That's all > Sadly, your loss? |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 11, 2008):Julian Mincham wrote: > Sadly, your loss? < No, not at all. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (May 12, 2008):Bob Brennan wrote: >Not sure if it has been noted in these threads that Bach was writing his cantatas at the unfathomable pace of approximately one per week.< Two points: (1) The pace of Bachs composition came up more in discussion of the cantatas of the first and second Leipzig cycles (Jahrgang I and II). By the time of BWV 188, this is less of a factor, or the number of lost works is very intensely concentrated to this time period. (2) On a recent thread (or references therefrom), it was pointed out that some of Bachs peers and friends had equally intensive composition obligations. >Taken as a whole, the cantatas Bach composed over a period of several years are, in totality, nothing short of a staggering feat. Throw in a few ingenious masses, concertos and assorted other miscellanies and you have a cumulative body of work that simply defies reason.< I find consideration of the cumulative body of work an improtant point, especially since it appears to have been important to Bach as well. Those who enjoy identifying the uninspired or derivative aria, the subpar cantata, are welcome to do so. For that matter, there are some serious posts in the archives which suggest that we should just skip the recitatives, and there are recordings which are happy to oblige. For me, it is a greater joy to recognize that Bach had the opportunity to reuse and rework most his cantatas, and that what we have is most likely what he was comfortable leaving as part of his lifes work, SDG. Lost or damaged material seems a matter of carelessness by subsequent generations, rather than indifference on the part of Bach. I am interested in reading what Gardiner has to say about subpar cantatas. Can that specific reference be provided? |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (May 13, 2008):Julian Mincham wrote: >The alto aria (Mvt. 4), the fourth of six movements, does not hold the precise central place in the cantata but it feels like it. This dark and dramatic piece, accompanied by the organ with a cello doubling the bass line is, like the tempestuous sinfonia (Mvt. 1) and the reflective chorale (Mvt. 6), set in the minor, in this case Em which Bach often uses for texts referring to the crucifixion.< I found Julians entire post a helpful supplement to some of the other comments; I particularly enjoyed Neils from the first discussions, as well. The main idea is that the tenor aria (Mvt. 2) is much simpler than the alto aria (Mvt. 4). However, this is entirely appropriate to the texts, the simplicity of trust in God contrasted with the theologic (not to mention human) complexity of the crucifixion. As Julian implies, the sinfonia (Mvt. 1) and chorale (Mvt. 6) provide an appropriate frame for this contrast, and the recitatives provide the typical elaboration and musical punctuation. All and all, a well balanced and structured cantata, including the sinfonia (Mvt. 1). I fail to see much to complain about. I have already expressed the opinion that Bach's use of the sinfonia at this stage of his career does not represent a new development so much as a return to his roots (BWV 150) As others have also mentioned, it is good to have Julians comments in the weekly discussion, even if we do not always take the trouble to say so. With reference to Brads comment re student participation in Bach's composition process, Dürr has this to say re BWV 188: <The composition itself is notable for a certain simplicity, which has led many scholars to doubt its authenticity....At most, the question might be left open as to whether this or that movement might have originated during tuition as a combined effort of pupil and teacher. Yet there is no evidence of this whatsoever.> Evidence, especiallly lack thereof, is the key concept. Speculation is speculation, regardless of the perpetrators credentials. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (May 13, 2008):The preferred sequence, which I failed to follow, is: (1) Proofread (2) Hit send Clarifications: (1) I wrote <All and all>, the correct expression is <all in all>. I would not bother to write for such a minor detail, but I also noticed (2) I referred to <Brads comments>. In fact, he was citing a BBC announcer, not expressing his own opinions, which I did not make clear. |
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Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (May 14, 2008):"Sorry, your loss", "no, not at all" This discussion between two learned gentlemen really is indicative of many problems between fellow lovers of music and indeed, more seriously persons with religious and other views. one person will feel so certain about his perspective that, in the case of music, he will say, sorry, your loss. I never say that to anyone bc. I know that the person in question has his own music. Ditto on religion, one cannot at least on a music list be sending one's fellow music lovers to one's figment of Hell. Again what we have in common is a love for bach and many of us have deep and profound other musical interests as well. Some of us havecertain religious beliefs and others don't. That's my view and I am sticking to it. Personally I have always found the comparison of this aria to "Erbarme dich" trespassing the absurd. Not everything Bach put out can be on the highest level. |
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Julian Mincham wrote (May 20, 2008):BWV 188 Providing sharp contrast to my appreciation here was my reaction to his performance of the alto aria in BWV 188. Before two list members provided polar opposite evaluations of the relative merits of that aria a few weeks ago, my only contact had been the Buwalda/Lrecording [3], and I had prematurely dismissed the aria as inconsequential. As the dispute progressed, however, and I made it a point to listen to that recording again, as well as the Hamari/ Rilling version, I began to develop a real appreciation of the qualities described in Julian's appraisal. (Such an analysis really does help to open one's ears!) I still cannot enjoy Buwalda's interpretation, I probably will choose not to listen to it again, and I believe that my initial failure to appreciate the aria was a result of his, for me, unprepossessing performance. (Because I am so enamored of van der Meel's tenor aria in the same performance of that cantata, however, Buwalda will probably slip in underneath the radar once in a while.) [To Stephen Benson] Glad the comments were helpful. I am also glad that 188 seems to be finding some new listeners. It has been one of the lesser known cantatas and it's good to see it making something of a comeback. Maybe?its relative obscurity?is because of its chequered history, or the fact that the opening movement has to be reconstituted (and, indeed, played--it's by no means the easiest of Bach's concerto movements). But when the whole work is brought together, dominated by the raw energy of the sinfonia and alto aria (the tenor aria and the two interesting recitatives providing a perfect sense of balance) it becomes a truly commanding work. Interestingly, Bach must have had high regard for the original concerto as he reused it several times. It is one of the most commanding of the late barqoue concerti, unique for Bach (I think) in having all three movements in minor keys. I recall as a student reading an article (can't now recall who it was) arguing that there were so many un-Bachian or untypical?features in this concerto as to indicate that someone else wrote it. That's fine until you ask, but who else could have written it?? And answer came there none! I guess that the danger in assessing works by a composer as prolific and daring as Bach is one of?interpretting the 'original' as?'untypical'---and thereby drawing the wrong conclusions. |
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Cantata BWV 188 : Complete Recordings | Recordings of Individual Movements | Discussions |
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Recordings & Discussions of Cantatas : Cantatas BWV 1-50 | Cantatas BWV 51-100 | Cantatas BWV 101-150 | Cantatas BWV 151-200 | Cantatas BWV 201-224 | Cantatas BWV Anh | Order of Discussion |
Last update: ýMay 20, 2008 ý12:54:12