Cantata BWV 110 - Discussions

Discussions in the Week of December 13, 1999

Marie Jensen wrote (December 12, 1999):
Bach’s Christmas music is a lot more than the Oratorio. I love BWV 110 "Unser Mund sei voll Lachens" (Rilling) [4] even more for its overwhelming joy and its rich instrumentation.

The opening has a joyful dignity, the same French overture as the Orchestral Suite 4 BWV 1069, but with soloists (especially a grandiose Bass) and chorus. They sing Lachens, so one can hear the ha ha ha (in a good meaning not as laughing at jokes or so).

There are three very different arias and a beautiful "Ehre Sei Gott” I simply love it all.

The flute/Tenor "Himmels Kinder" aria is expressing an uncomplicated pure joy: the flute theme going unworried up to Heaven like children playing, like the smoke of incense burning.

In the oboe/Alto "Menschenkind" aria "Höll ", "Satan" and "Wurm" show up. The joy is gone for a while replaced by the myrrh of suffering: the human oboe playing so moving.

After the beautiful "Ehre sei Gott" we are back in the ecstatic golden joy similar to "Grosser Herr und starker König" from the Christmas Oratorio (BWV 248): a trumpet/Bass aria also with "andachtsvolle Saiten" performed by a fantastic happy violin play from the orchestra filled with energy.

The final Choral makes the same strong impression as its sister from the 3^rd part of Christmas Oratorio "Seid froh dieweil" on the same tune. Here starting "Alleluja”.

Listening to BWV 110 is always a great pleasure- sometimes nearly too much.

It is with this feeling in mind I have written this mail, not to recommend and compare versions, let others do that. I just want this cantata to be remembered, in case some of you have forgotten.

Aryeh Oron wrote (December 16, 2000):
Opening Chorus

Since cantata BWV 110 was written for Christmas, and encouraged by the writing of Marie Jensen, I thought that it could be a good idea to re-listen to this wonderful cantata. This time I chose for my comparison the opening Chorus, but it does not mean that I am under-evaluate the beautiful Arias.

Mvt. 1. Chorus (SATB)
Unser Mund sei voll Lachens
(Let our mouth be full of laughter)
SATB, 3 Trumpets, Timpani, 2 Traverse Flutes, Oboe, Fagot, 2 Violins, Viola, Organ, Continuo

Regarding this opening Chorus, I would like to add to what Marie wrote a small quote from Robertson book: “The opening Chorus is a supreme example of Bach’s immense skill of adaptation and the addition of flutes to the scoring… Bach imposes the 4 vocal parts above the start of the allegro…”

And I think that the combination of the voices and the instruments (in the right hands) in this movement sounds so natural and refreshing, that it can cause us to think that we miss something when we hear the first movement of the D Major Overture.

Review of the Recordings

The performances I have listened to are:

[4] Helmuth Rilling (1974; Opening Chorus: 9:12)
This performance sounds very right. There is a good balance between the choir and the orchestra, After the orchestral opening, the chorus enters very naturally and continues the line sketched by the orchestra. When they sing the words ‘Then was our mouth filled with laughter and our tongue with singing”, they really laugh. The solo parts also grow naturally out of the choral parts.

[5] Nikolaus Harnoncourt (1980; Opening Chorus: 7:27)
This performance is very inhomogeneous. It sounds like the orchestra and the choir were recorded separately (I don’t think that is the case, but it sounds that way). When the choir enters after the instrumental opening you are surprised, and I am not sure that this was the intention of JSB. The good part of this performance is the beautiful sound of the old woodwind instruments. But its weakest point is that it lacks real joy. Like a dry English humour.

[7] Philippe Herreweghe (1995; Opening Chorus: 6:38)
This is very delicate and balanced performance. Every voice and every instrument is very clear and the whole performance is very integrated. The choir and the orchestra are charming. If this performance lacks something, it is a real joy. Like a man who is really happy, but does not show it to the others. As he is laughing inside himself.

I would like to hear other’s opinions.

Marie Jensen wrote (December 17, 1999):
[To Aryeh Oron] Agreeing with myself, yes, and thank you for your fine contribution, but BWV 110 is for the first day of Christmas.

File upload: "Ach Herr, was ist ein Menschenkind"

Andreas Burghardt wrote (October 28, 2001):
[M-7] I have uploaded to the file section the alto aria "Ach Herr! was ist ein Menschenkind" from the cantata "Unser Mund sei voll Lachens" BWV 110 sung by Antoine Walter, soloist of the Maîtrise de Colmar. Amarillis, a string trio, is playing on period instruments. Arlette Steyer, direction. From the CD "J.S.Bach Aria" Ambroisi AMB 9907. The recording was made in 2000.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bach_Cantatas/files/AchHerrWasIst.mp3

Antoine Walter sings another aria on the CD, the soprano aria "Ach bleib bei uns Herr Jesu Christ" from cantata BWV 6. I recognized him, when we (Douglas, Peter and me) visited Colmar in May.

Takashi Trushima wrote (October 29, 2001):
[M-7] [To Andreas Burghardt] What a coincidence! I bought the CD just yesterday, and have been listening to it several times since then. Certainly all of the four performances by treble voices are beautiful. 'Ah Herr! was ist ein Menschenkind,' from BWV 110, 'Kreuz und Krone sind verbunden' from BWV 12, 'Gott versorget alles Leiden' from BWV 187, and 'Ach, bleib bei uns, Herr Jesu Christ,' from BWV 6 are beautifully sung by three choristers. I would recommend this album.

Boyd Pehrson wrote (November 1, 2001):
[M-7] [To Andreas Burghardt] Beautiful solo work there by Master Walter. Ahhh, oboe and alto! Your sound file demonstrates how well old oboes and boy altos meld. Andreas, do you know if Master Walter is Alsatian? Thanks so much for uploading something from this choir! I'm very happy to see they are recording Bach in the Alsace! Were you able to attend any concert by the Maîtrise des Garçons? Did you visit the Unterlinden Musée while in Colmar? I would love to hear les Garçons de Colmar singing in the pink Strasbourg Cathedrale!

Andreas Burghardt wrote (November 4, 2001):
[M-7] [To Boyd Pehrson] Antoine Walter is the son of an Alsatian father and a Polish mother. I met his mother and him at the boychoir festival in Poznan. When Douglas, Peter and me visited the choir, we only had a very short time in Colmar. It was somehow adventurous, because when we arrived in Colmar we discovered that we had not the address of the Maîtrise with us. By luck we just managed to be there for the last twenty minutes of a rehearsal. Later we had a short talk with Madame Steyer. Unfortunately we had no time for the Musée. The Maîtrise is part of a normal school and the rehearsals are embedded in the time table. They rehearse almost every afternoon!

Bach's Choir and BWV 110

Olly Fox wrote (May 25, 2005):
Partially related to recent discussion on Bach's "Choir" or resources available to him in Leipzig, I have been listening to the opening movement of BWV 110.

The markings in the BGA vocal score give the 2 solo passages as "senza ripieni" followed by tutti sections for full forces. Are these markings present in the autograph and how do these directions relate to OVPP arguments?

I would be interested to learn how many of Bach's magnificent choral movements contain such directions. I can think of a few examples where the music is interspersed by recitative and arioso sections bunot ripieni/senza ripieni sections like BWV110.

Bradley Lehman wrote (May 25, 2005):
Olly Fox wrote:
< Partially related to recent discussion on Bach's "Choir" or resources available to him in Leipzig, I have been listening to the opening movement of BWV 110.
The markings in the BGA vocal score give the 2 solo passages as "senza ripieni" followed by tutti sections for full forces. Are these markings present in the autograph and how do these directions relate to OVPP arguments? >
This issue is addressed at three places in Parrott's book, plus Rifkin's 1981 essay (pp189ff in Parrott).

< I would be interested to learn how many of Bach's magnificent choral movements contain such directions. >
Tables 4A and 4B in Parrott's book....

John Reese wrote (May 27, 2005):
[To Olly Fox] Another cantata that's a little puzzling in light of OVPP is BWV 10, which I transcribed in Finale earlier this year. The instrumentation of the arias reflects a careful eye towards not overbalancing the soloists -- the obligatto falls silent during most of the vocal passages, and the instrumental parts go from forte to piano whenever the soloist is singing. On the other hand, the opening chorus makes no such compromises for the singers -- the instrumental parts are going full bore from beginning to end.

I should make it clear that I am not taking a position one way or the other on OVPP, as I haven't really felt compelled to do much research on the subject. This little anomoly does require an explanation, though. Some candidates:

1. Bach didn't employ OVPP for all his cantatas
2. The arias were borrowed from another work, which might explain why the instrumentation isn't consistent
3. The singing style expected in a chorus was different from that of the arias (perhaps not simply louder, but different technique entirely)
4. Bach wasn't really paying attention to what he was doing

That last one, of course, seems pretty farfetched.

I admit that this is pure speculation, based entirely on the music written by Bach and nothing else. I do know, however, that there are certain advantages of limiting a choir to one voice per part, especially if rehearsal time is limited. Foremost among these is that the choirmaster doesn't have to spend any time achieving a blend between voices of the same part -- not a trivial task at all. I have known a few choir directors who used OVPP as a fallback position -- if only for the more difficult sections -- if the choir was taking too long to prepare a piece.

John Pike wrote (May 27, 2005):
[To John Reese] I agree with the list of possibilities, although no. 4 seems very unlikely. I think there is another possibility, similar to no. 3, notably that, when 4 people are singing, OVPP, as opposed to just one soloist, it is not necessary for the instrumentalists to play down. I get the impression from comments I have read on the list over recent months, and from my own experience of OVPP recordings, that the balance is just fine in these situations, provided that you have 4 good concertisten singing OVPP, which of course is what is being proposed.

Bradley Lehman wrote (May 27, 2005):
Bach's Choir and BWV 110 and dynamics

John Reese wrote:
< Another cantata that's a little puzzling in light of OVPP is BWV 10, which I transcribed in Finale earlier this year. The instrumentation of the arias reflects a careful eye towards not overbalancing the soloists -- the obligatto falls silent during most of the vocal passages, and the instrumental parts go from forte to piano whenever the soloist is singing. On the other hand, the opening chorus makes no such compromises for the singers -- the instrumental parts are going full bore from beginning to end. >
Take a look at the Brandenburg Concerto #3, and then at the "Gerne will ich" of the St Matthew Passion (BWV 244) (bass singer, 2 violins, continuo). In both cases, does "forte" in these instrumental parts not simply mean something like "you have the main part now" while "piano" means something like "you're accompanying somebody else's main part now, listen"?

And likewise, take a look at the dynamic scheme and balancing in the Italian Concerto and its companion, the B minor Ouverture...again (arguably?) the tonal contrast of main part against an accompaniment, not necessarily a huge change from quiet to loud as we might expect in 19^th century music.

And, since when has "forte" ever meant "go full bore from beginning to end"?

Well, I know we've had this dynamics discussion before, starting off decently until it turned (predictably) into yet another tendentious trashing of Quantz by people who hadn't read his book: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Topics/Dynamics.htm

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 27, 2005):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
< Take a look at the Brandenburg Concerto #3, and then at the "Gerne will ich" of the St Matthew Passion (BWV 244) (bass singer, 2 violins, continuo). In both cases, does "forte" in these instrumental parts not simply mean something like "you have the main part now" while "piano" means something like "you're accompanying somebody else's main part now, listen"?
And likewise, take a look at the dynamic scheme and balancing in the Italian Concerto and its companion, the B minor Ouverture...again (arguably?) the tonal contrast of main part against an accompaniment, not necessarily a huge change from quiet to loud as we might expect in 19^th century music.
And, since when has "forte" ever meant "go full bore from beginning to end"? >
There are many instances in the organ works where Bach seems to use "forte" and "piano" not so much for dynamic effects as to indicate a change of registration colour -- the most famous example is the Prelude and Fugue in E flat ('St Anne') which may have been used for the inauguration of a new organ. Bach also marks the piece "organo pleno" which for a long time was thought to meant a roaring "full organ". It is probably better translated as "using the full tonal resources of the organ".

Thomas Braatz wrote (May 27, 2005):
John Pike wrote:
>>I think there is another possibility, similar to no. 3,[John Reese: "The singing style expected in a chorus was different from that of the arias (perhaps not simply louder, but different technique entirely)] notably that, when 4 people are singing, OVPP, as opposed to just one soloist, it is not necessary for the instrumentalists to play down.<<
But is it not true that the instrumentalists in these OVPP recordings are usually OPPP with the exception that the 1^st and 2^nd violins might sometimes have 2PPP?

However, in the "Entwurff" Bach specifies his ideal number of instrumentalists, again these would be minimum numbers: at least 2 to 3 1st violins, 2 to 3 2nd violins, 2 1st violas, 2 2nd violas, 2 violoncellos, 1 violone, 2 to 3 oboes, 1 to 2 bassoons and when needed 3 trumpets & timpani. Let's take the ideal top number: 13 string instruments, and when woodwinds are included (which very frequently occurs) add to this number the louder force of 3 oboes and 2 bassoons, not to mention the 3 trumpets and timpani when they join in. How are only 4 good concertisten against such a force going to be properly heard in an opening mvt. of a chorale cantata such as Bach wrote in Leipzig? By singing louder to improve the balance? By having the instruments 'cut way back' in volume? According to Parrott's quotation (p. 132 of "The Essential Bach Choir") of Scheibe who wrote in 1740 that the strings (in a typical Bach cantata) should number at least 4 or 5 per part! All this mumbo jumbo about 'there is really very little difference between 1VPP and 3 or 4VPP, or 1 string per part vs 4 to 5PPP still needs to be proven. It is insufficient to accept Rifkin's, Parrott's or any other OVPP adherent's report that there is negligible difference. Recordings notoriously can artificially balance the sound between the voices and instruments so that they really can not be used as evidence asto what Bach had in mind. There is definitely something very much amiss in the reports, such as Parrott's chapter on "Balance" p. 131ff, despite the attempt at acoustical analysis and descriptions of much softer Baroque instrument volume which conclude that the volume of 4 concertists is about the same as a choir made of 1 concertist per part + 3 ripienists and that there is no problem with balance when 3 oboes and 6 violins conceivably play in unison with all of the remaining orchestra added to this against only 4 concertisten who are trying to 'hold their own' against such a formidable concentration of sound.

Thomas Braatz wrote (May 27, 2005):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
>>There are many instances in the organ works where Bach seems to use "forte" and "piano" not so much for dynamic effects as to indicate a change of registration colour -- the most famous example is the Prelude and Fugue in E flat ('St Anne') which may have been used for the inauguration of a new organ.<<
This is an 'echo' effect which Bach also uses in his cantatas. Obviously the echo is at a lower volume, no matter what registration is used on the organ, than the 'f' forte indication.

Doug Cowling wrote (May 27, 2005):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< This is an 'echo' effect which Bach also uses in his cantatas. Obviously the echo is at a lower volume, no matter what registration is used on the organ, than the 'f' forte indication. >
Is an "echo" always at a lower dynamic? The mere change of voice or instrument is sufficient antiphony. I don't like performances of "Liebster Heiland" in the "Christmas Oratorio" (BWV 248) which send the second soprano soloist out to the cloakroom.

Thomas Braatz wrote (May 27, 2005):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
>>Take a look at the Brandenburg Concerto #3, and then at the "Gerne will ich" of the St Matthew Passion (BWV 244) (bass singer, 2 violins, continuo). In both cases, does "forte" in these instrumental parts not simply mean something like "you have the main part now" while "piano" means something like "you're acompanying somebody else's main part now, listen"?<<
We have discussed this notion before on this list and it does not stand up to closer scrutiny. There are numerous counter-examples which I am not going to look up again right now. Perhaps you can find them on Aryeh's site?

>>And likewise, take a look at the dynamic scheme and balancing in the Italian Concerto and its companion, the B minor Ouverture...again (arguably?) the tonal contrast of main part against an accompaniment, not necessarily a huge change from quiet to loud as we might expect in 19^th century music.<<
There may be special circumstances involving the harpsichord which can only begin to emulate the wide range of dynamic possibilities on an organ or in Bach's sacred music.

>>And, since when has "forte" ever meant "go full bore from beginning to end"?<<
It helps to keep in mind Johann Gottfried Walther's definition of 'forte' in his "Musicalisches Lexicon...." [Leipzig, 1732]:

"'Forte (ital.) fort, fortement, (gall.)' starck hefftig, jedoch auf eine natürliche Art, ohne die Stimme, oder das Instrument gar zu sehr zwingen."

["Forte (Italian), fort, fortement (French): strong, passionate/intense; however still in a natural manner without forcing too much the voice or the instrument."]

This does not sound like 'going full bore all the way.' an extremist, inflaming expression which is only used here to make the point that 'f' or 'forte' did not mean what Bach intended it to mean.

'Forte' of 'f' in the score/part is not just simply a marker without dynamic meaning as we can clearly read from Walther's description of this term. Now it is important, once again, to remember what Scheibe so aptly described about Bach's notation of his own compositions: everything is given the way he [Bach] wants it to be performed -- no esoteric doctrines contrived in the last few decades can easily 'explain away' what Bach wrote down in his scores or in the parts which he either wrote himself or corrected/edited when others copied them for him. Many present-day musicians are taking far too many liberties with Bach's music without declaring honestly as Busoni or Stokowski did: "This is an arrangement by me for modern-day audiences where I allow my own imagination and my musical abilities to be inspired by Bach's original."

It is only when musicians/conductors claim to be giving an authentic performance, as close as possible to the original sound and period characteristics, that a more stringent set of 'playing rules' based upon Bach's Urtext and his own written documents and letters must be used as a basis of criticism. In any other instance, 'anything goes' and 'anything is possible' with Bach's music as it seems to be nigh indestructible in its nature.

Thomas Braatz wrote (May 27, 2005):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
>>Is an "echo" always at a lower dynamic?<<
Yes, according to Walther, it definitely is. I do not have time to relate Walther's definition of 'echo' now, but believe me, it is quite clear that this is the case.

Bradley Lehman wrote (May 27, 2005):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
And, since when has "forte" ever meant "go full bore from beginning to end"?
There are many instances in the organ works where Bach seems to use "forte" and "piano" not so much for dynamic effects as to indicate a change of registration colour -- the most famous example is the Prelude and Fugue in E flat ('St Anne') which may have been used for the inauguration of a new organ. Bach also marks the piece "organo pleno" which for a long time was thought to meant a roaring "full organ". It is probably better translated as "using the full tonal resources of the organ".
Well said. I like that latter phrase as interpretation of "organo pleno". Akin to "do something expressive and beautiful, and don't scale it back apologetically"....

That said, I chose to do the "organo pleno" of the Kyrie 671 as pretty much roaring full organ anyway, just because that one happens to sound strong and thrilling that way. The whole principal chorus plus the 16 Bourdon on the Hw, and then the pedal cantus firmus (with its PC and both reeds) coupled over to the Ow so I could give it the Scharff. That organ's spec:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/tb41.html
http://www.taylorandboody.com/organs/opus_41.html
Maybe it was a slightly vulgar overkill, but it sure does sound rich and gutsy. And the point of the gig, both in the recording and the concerts, was indeed to demonstrate the instrument's full range.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/cd1002.html

Two other organists did the St Anne in the dedication week (the one we just had in May 2005, not referring back to Bach's). And I talked the fugue player into using the manual 16 for the last page, which was again a thrilling and powerful effect capping off the progress of the piece. She did a nice buildup of the several sections of that fugue, not just blasting it out the whole time. They did an hour of other chorales between the prelude and the fugue, instead of the ClUb 3 chorales, and they had an ensemble of about a dozen men sing those chorales alternatim with the organ playing, using various 17^th and 18^th century Germanic vocal arrangements of them. Quite a good concert, IMO.

That organist showed me something very interesting, after I'd turned pages and served as registrant for her on the Saturday where she played one of the CPE Bach wild organ pieces. In the front of her Peters edition the editor presented a spec that was (except for one stop) identical with this organ's.

John Reese wrote (May 27, 2005):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
>>And, since when has "forte" ever meant "go full bore from beginning to end"?
I was actually referring more to the fact that the instruments play non-stop from beginning to end (except the trumpet, which plays the cantus firmus). I feel sorry forthe oboists.

Actually, the discrepency isn't between the opening chorus and ALL the arias, just the first one. In the first aria, the oboes drop out when the soloist is singing; the second aria is accompanied only by the continuo; and in the third the instruments play only the cantus firmus. The different approach in the last two can be easily be explained by a lightening of the texture, rather than a balancing strategy.

John Reese wrote (May 27, 2005):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< But is it not true that the instrumentalists in these OVPP recordings are usually OPPP with the exception that the 1st and 2nd violins might sometimes have 2PPP?
However, in the "Entwurff" Bach specifies his ideal number of instrumentalists, again these would be minimum numbers: at least 2 to 3 1st violins, 2 to 3 2nd violins, 2 1st violas, 2 2nd violas, 2 violoncellos, 1 violone, 2 to 3 oboes, 1 to 2 bassoons and when needed 3 trumpets & timpani. >
The modern thinking in orchestration is that violins playing in unison don't reach that critical mass so that they sound like an ensemble, rather than a few soloists, until there are four of them. Thus, for anything less than four, you might as well have just one.

Of course, this wasn't necessarily the way Bach thought (and the same may not apply to violins with catgut strings and German bows).

Bradley Lehman wrote (May 27, 2005):
John Reese wrote:
< Actually, the discrepency isn't between the opening chorus and ALL the arias, just the first one. In the first aria, the oboes drop out when the soloist is singing; the second aria is accompanied only by the continuo; and in the third the instruments play only the cantus firmus. The different approach in the last two can be easily be explained by a lightening of the texture, rather than a balancing strategy. >
In the first aria, couldn't the dropout of oboes be a timbral consideration, in addition to any issues of volume? Baroque oboes make a focused and penetrating sound, and it tends to compete with voices (rather than reinforcing or blending with them as, say, a cornetto or a Baroque flute would do).

Neil Halliday wrote (May 27, 2005):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
<"I chose to do the "organo pleno" of the Kyrie 671 as pretty much roaring full organ anyway, just because that one happens to sound strong and thrilling that way".>
One spot where a change to full organ is very effective is in the 'Grave" section at the end of the 'Adagio' (middle movement) of BWV 564. Bach has not marked any change in dynamic level here, but the change in the form of the music from melodic (wistful A minor) to contrapuntal (discordant, almost atonal, in 7 parts, ending in resplendent C major) cries out for some impressive change in effect. (Perhaps the 'Grave' marking gives the clue).

Of Marie Alain, Walcha, Rubsam and Germani, only the last organist takes this action, with tremendous effect, on the full organ in the Royal Festival Hall, London. Germani massively increases the registration on the single A in the right hand (not on the crotchet which is the end of the adagio, but on the tied semiquaver which is the start of the 'Grave'; when the 7 parts suddenly enter on the discord on the B flat in the pedals...Wow!.

The others all keep the same registration that is used in the gentle 'Adagio', more or less; and all sound very disappointing in comparison with what Germani makes of this remarkable passage that is really a wakeup call from the reverie of the Adagio and an introduction to the exhilirating fugue that follows.

Give it a go! You'll see what I mean.

Discussions in the Week of August 5, 2007

Russell Telfer wrote (August 5, 2007):
Introduction to BWV 110

Topic for discussion for the week beginning 5^th August 2007

Introduction to J.S.Bach's cantata BWV 110
Unser Mund sei voll Lachens
Let our mouths be full of laughter

The work, which has many textual sources from biblical and contemporary writers, was first performed on Christmas Day 1725.

It was last discussed in December 1999. Aryeh Oron provided much detail of the recordings of BWV 110 then available: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV110-D.htm

This impressive and ultra cheerful opening chorus (Mvt. 1) shares its music with the opening movement of the 4^th Suite. It is scored for 4 part choir with 3 trumpets, timpani, flutes, oboe, bassoon, violin, viola and continuo with organ. Some listeners may feel that it dominates the cantata. It goes without saying that adapting a work with such large forces requires an extremely high level of skill.

Like the orchestral work it has 189 bars and is - bearing in mind that this sort of analysis wasn't intended for music like this - in ABA form:

23 bars in 2/2 time,
145 bars in 9/8 time and
21 bars in common time reprising the opening 'call to arms'.

I was interested to check whether the music had been extended or shortened as in the case of another adaptation, the last movement of BWV 207 which differs in length and detail when performed in another cantata. Which? I confess I can't tell you this and am still hoping another list member will supply that information.

As to the cantata as a whole, I have to express my belief that apart from the first and last movements, words and music do not match. For the most part the words are uplifting; the music in my view a little downcast.

Mvt. 2 Aria: Ihr gedanken und ihr sinnen
All ye thoughts and all ye senses, Lift yourselves aloft this moment

This aria is for tenor. 2 independent flutes, working in canon much of the time, maintain a constant onward pulse whilst the soloist intones his message of praise and admiration but in a solemn and devotional mode.

Mvt. 3 Recit: Die, Herr, ist Niemand gleich!
Thou art great and Thy works are great

A very short recit for bass follows with fully scored string parts. Other commentators have noted the short rising arpeggios - the imagery suggests looking up to God.

Mvt. 4 Aria Ach Herr, was ist ein Menschenkind
Ah Lord, what is a child of man
That thou wouldst through such pain redeem him?

Scoring is for solo oboe d'amore, alto and continuo. It is in ¾ time with running triplets throughout, giving a catchy 9/8 rhythm which belies the solemnity of the movement which remains rooted in F# minor.

I feel that this is in similar mood to the previous aria, although here the music is a little more closely matched to the message of the words.

Mvt. 5 Duetto Ehre sei Gott in der Höhe
Glory to God in the highest

Soprano, tenor and continuo: this is a moment for some unrestrained contrapuntal singing. I am in two minds about the movement though: the Gloria (textual) theme (think of the B Mi Mass (BWV 232)) is vibrant to the nth degree

But here, despite the uplifting arpeggiate entries of the soloists, we remain in the solemn, mildly depressed, mood experienced in Mvt. 2 and Mvt. 4 above. I don't feel the music matches the message.

Mvt. 6 Aria Wacht auf, ihr Adern und ihr Glieder
Wake up and sing those very hymns of gladness

Here at last is Bach at his uplifting best. We have a heart-warming aria that would wake the more somnolent members of his congregation before the final chorus. Trumpet, violin and soloist are given challenging parts to an ever moving bass. Yet another demonstration of Bach's mastery.

Mvt. 7 Alleluja! Gelobt sei Gott
Alleluia! All praise to God

There is a single verse, 12 bars of music: the tone intense and serious. Like the first aria, it is in B minor. Alleluias - are they normally as solemn as this?

The final Choral tune is also found at the end of BWV 248 part 3 to the words "Seid froh die-weil." on the same tune but with dramatically rewritten harmonies and different effect. So much so, that I did not notice the fact until read Marie Jensen's post on the earlier discussion of this cantata which had been written in 1999.

Julian Mincham wrote (August 5, 2007):
Russell Telfer wrote:
< (Mvt. 3) A very short recit for bass follows with fully scored string parts. Other commentators have noted the short rising arpeggios - the imagery suggests looking up to God. >
And note the use of this figure in the previous movement bars 37/8 thus conjoining them.

I don't agree with Russell about the fitting of words and music. I think there are 2 vital issues here--one is that one needs to view the cantata as an entity, with a planned sense of progression and movement. In BWV 110 we have the overt expression in Mvt. 1, the quieter expression of same (see below) in Mvt. 2, the picture of sinless salvation and thw writhing worm in Mvt. 3---in other words a progression from elation to potential misery (the latter forming the centerpiece of the cantata and a warning to the congregation). Then Bach brings us back throught the more neutral duet to the overtly joyous bass aria returning to the open and extrovert expression of the first movement (Mvt. 1) (the chorale finally gives as a moment for reflection) There is a clear gradation here of interpretation of message, artistic balance and variety.

The other point is--and it's a vital and not often discussed one-- that Bach often differentiates between the COMMUMAL extrovert expression of faith, joy in salvation, praise of God etc and the PERSONAL individual expression of the same aspects which are often gentler, more introverted and more reflective. This is what happens (I suggest) in Mvt. 1 and Mvt. 2 of this cantata. And is you want to see this really happening within the one movement look at BWV 151/1 coming up where a da capo structure is extended to make such a contrast immediately apparent. Seen in this light I think that the music fits the words perfectly.

Peter Smaill wrote (August 5, 2007):
[To Russell Telfer] BWV 110 is dominated by its opening movement (Mvt. 1) and the remarkable Bass aria (Mvt. 6) and it is tempting to skip over the other movements. However, as Russell points out, the opening movement has a remarkable variety of time signatures and this is also true of the Alto aria Mvt. 4 which switches around from 3/4 to 9/8. Quite apart from the highly successful and innovative adaptation of the first movement of the fourth orchestral suite, BWV 1069, Bach is experimenting with flexibility in time signature in relation to text.

Recent scholarship seems to suggest that the orchestral suite as we know it (cf Boyd, quoting Rifkin) did not originally have trumpets- so here is a rare case of the sacred work drawing from, and then subsequently enriching the secular counterpart.

The Bass aria (Mvt. 6), prior to the da capo, finishes the text on a wonderful plunging motif at "Dabei sich Herz und Geist erfreuen" ("In which the heart and spirit rejoice"). In under two bars the soloist swoops 13 tones downward from a high D to low F Sharp.

The word-painting is perhaps not immediate but buried in the subsequent chorale, and more obvious from the text booklets for the day (the da capo would not be reprinted) in which the juxtaposition is close by: "Singen wir all aus unsers Herzens Grunde" ("Sing we all from the bottom of our hearts").

If there is any pattern to Bach's general approach to Christmas Day, it is, in the mode of a modern parent attempting to surprise with a new present, a love of variety. Thus here in BWV 110 we have the unique use of a Lehms morning text, the special adaptation of the orchestral suite, and the time signature variations.

in BWV 63, chiastic structure and no biblical words or chorale at all;

In BWV 91; chorale dialogue in the recitative, based on the hymn of the day; antithesis in the duet.

Alas BWV 197a for Christmas Day 1728 , which may have had a Sinfonia, is scarcely known and fragmentary. Nevertheless the opening part of the Christmas Oratorio BWV 248/1 from 1734, also for Christmas Day, confirms a tendency to variety and parody of the highest order for this great Feast. The burghers of Leipzig were, like good children everywhere, able to expect a surprise on Christmas Day.

Julian Mincham wrote (August 5, 2007):
Peter Smaill wrote:
< The burghers of Leipzig were, like good children everywhere, able to expect a surprise on Christmas Day. >
And perhaps even more so on the days following. It seems to me that Bach's attidude to the music of the days following Christmas day was rather different in 1725 than in previous years.

Russell Telfer wrote (August 5, 2007):
Julian Mincham wrote:
< I don't agree with Russell about the fitting of words and music. I think there are 2 vital issues here--one is that one needs to view the cantata as an entity, with a planned sense of progression and movement. In BWV 110 we have the overt expression in Mvt. 1, the quieter expression of same (see belwo) in Mvt. 2, the picture of sinless salvation and thw writhing worm in Mvt. 3---in other words a progression from elation to potential misery (the latter forming the centerpiece of the cantata and a warning to the congregation). Then Bach brings us back throught the more neutral duet to the overtly joyous bass aria returning to the open and extrovert expression of the first movement (Mvt. 1) (the chorale finally gives as a moment for reflection) There is a clear gradation here of interpretation of message, artistic balance and variety. >
I had a good look at what you said, Julian, and I think we have to agree to disagree. I'm always willing to admit I might be missing something, but perhaps like the man who missed the clue in the detective story, I am taking a more prosaic view of this than you.

Mvt. 1 exhorts us to be full of laughter, and we have a mind-blowingly cheerful and powerful choral movement.The only seriously painful movement is Mvt. 4. I would regard the rest of the words of the cantata as dutiful (Mvt. 2 and Mvt. 3) and the rest cheerful.

But of two movements with cheerful text, Mvt. 5 (Glory to God) is hardly unrestrained, and the final chorale (Mvt. 7) (Alleluia) is intense and in the minor. Not what the layman would expect, anyway.

Julian Mincham wrote (August 5, 2007):
Russell Telfer wrote:
< I had a good look at what you said, Julian, and I think we have to agree to disagree. >
I am always happy to do this.

But I stand by my analysis which I could example from so many other cantatas. i think the communal/personal expression of the text is still much misunderstood but yetexplains so much in the cantatas.

but what do others think?????

Jean Laaninen wrote (August 6, 2007):
[To Julian Mincham] I'm a bit pressed for time, but I did listen to the cantata today and I also looked at the score and read all the comments. Even if minor mode does not always indicate sadness as we've recently discussed with Ed, minor mode is usually a signal musically that one is moving to a more serious or deeper view of a matter...I think. So the arrival of Christ in the world retrospective of the time in which he lived, could be a call to awareness for the congregation regarding the magnitude of the event. Minor also nearly always enters in to thmusic on a communion Sunday, and some Lutheran Churches do practice observance of communion on Christmas morning--therefore minor mode might be appropriate on such a basis. I am going to listen again, and come back with some more detailed opinoins. But this is turning into a busy week so it might be a few days. Even so, I am keeping tabs on what everyone is saying, while trying to get my house caught up and doing some library research and interviewing one of my young musician friends for my website. The site will be available for the list in just a few weeks, and I'm having a very good time writing about young people and some friends my age who for the most part have a serious interest in music as a career.

Russell Telfer wrote (August 6, 2007):
Peter Smaill wrote:
< If there is any pattern to Bach's general approach to Christmas Day, it is, in the mode of a modern parent attempting to surprise with a new present, a love of variety. Thus here in BWV 110 we have the unique use of a Lehms morning text, the special adaptation of the orchestral suite, and the time signature variations. >
Intuitively, Peter, I went for this straight away. The parent, the child, the new present: a lovely idea. I've always felt that Bach was with us on Christmas Day, but this was an interesting way of expressing it.

We know that Meister Bach was a master of word painting; he could put down music for anything from a state funeral to a drinking song competition as fast as the copyists could copy. He was a master of mood control (using a 21st century term for an eternal entity). Which brings me to my main point about BWV 110:

Some music is exhilarating, like BWV 110'1, which explicitly has the theme of laughter. Then (confining the discussion to devotional issues) there are textual verses, poems, prayers, etc which portray Praise, Thanks, Penitence, and everything from Victory in Battle to Crucifixion.

You might well imagine on a scale of 0 - 10, how cheerful\upbeat\positive versus miserable\downbeat\negative you might expect music for any of these themes to be.

As I said in my last post, I regard much of the text for cantata BWV 110 as being reflective and neutral (in a good sense of the word) and I feel that in this cantata Bach has turned *down* the thermostat, so to speak, on our
emotions, apart from the opening and the bass aria.

So when we sing Glory to God, and later, Alleluia, there is no exclamation mark at the end.

Farewell, 1725, just about.

Julian Mincham wrote (August 6, 2007):
Russell Taelfer wrote:
< As I said in my last post, I regard much of the text for cantata BWV 110 as being reflective and neutral (in a good sense of the word) and I feel that in this cantata Bach has turned *down* the thermostat, so to speak, on our emotions, apart from the opening and the bass aria. >
Well I would still like to hear others' views on the two ideas I put forward on list the other day--one, that Bach carefully 'gradated' his cantatas on an emotional level, rising or falling in emotional intensity from movement to movement and two that there is a clear distinction to be made between his expressions of the same theme/idea/emotion from a private personal viewpoint of the one hand and as the extrovert communal expression on the other. AND that he used this distinction as a way of balancing his cantatas.

However that Bach approached the whole Xmas celebrations of 1725 in a more subdued manner than previously is indisputable to my mind. Look for example at the two cantatas coming up for the second and third day after Xmas BWV 57 and BWV 151, and compare them with works written for the same days in previous years--it's quite interesting.

Neil Halliday wrote (August 7, 2007):
Russell Telfer wrote:
"As to the cantata as a whole, I have to express my belief that apart from the first and last movements, words and music do not match."
One way to overcome this conundrum is to allow a different interpretation of the words. The music of first two arias is indeed tinged with a gentle sadness, especially the second; but the text of the tenor aria should be read as an invitation to contemplate what God has achieved for us with the Incarnation, and not read as being concerned with experiencing the actual joy of soaring aloft to be in heaven:

"Lift your thoughts and senses swiftly to heaven, and think what God has done. He became man only so that we are heaven's children".

The sentiment in these words is contemplation, not joy.

Likewise the text of the alto aria should be read as contrasting the miserable state of man with the hope of salvation:

" What is a child of man? A cursed worm surrounded by Hell and Satan. And yet Christ's soul and spirit, out of love, is Man's salvation."

The horror of reality (as envisaged by the librettist) is tempered by the hope of God's promise of salvation; hence the music's gentle sadness.

The movement whose music for me at first glance does not correspond to the text is the final chorale:

''Alleluja! Praise be God, we all sing from the bottom of our hearts. For God has today made such joy we shall never forget it".

The music is noble and solemn, rather than joyful; perhaps Bach wants to remind his congregation that a celebration of Christ's birthday must perforce be coloured by an awareness of His suffering for man's sake.

Speaking of the final chorale, I like Herreweghe's [7] more traditional approach with 'tenuto' on the fermatas, very much like Rilling [4] and Werner [2]. This endows the movement with a more substantial aspect, in comparison with some other HIP examples.

Gardiner [10], Herreweghe [7] and Harnoncourt [5] have lovely duets (with Harnoncourt having the most vivid and satisfying continuo; Rilling's continuo [4] is heavy and un-phrased, as is often the case); Rotzsch's singers [6] have the worst type of heavy vibrato. Overall, Herreweghe's recording will probably be judged the finest of the period performances. Rilling [4] and Werner [2] both give satisfying modern instrument performances, with minor problems.

As usual, enjoyment of the music is enhanced by following the text while listening, at least a couple of times, as an aid to getting to know the music more completely.
_________

Julian's idea of Bach setting out to contrast the communal and the individual aspects in his (Bach's) settings of the texts, just about solves a problem I had with last week's cantata BWV 79, namely, the huge contrast between the vast scale of first movement and the intimate, small-scale second movement, with both texts having the same basic idea: "God is our sun and shield". This contrast in the perspective of the texts, and the resulting differences in scale of the music, is worth bearing in mind when approaching the cantatas.

Julian Mincham wrote (August 7, 2007):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< This contrast in the perspective of the texts, and the resulting differences in scale of the music, is worth bearing in mind when approaching the cantatas. >
This contrast is ever there with Bach but, it seems to me increasingly so in the third cycle. Whereas earlier Bach generally made this contrast in different movements, at this stage he is doing it more within the same movement. There are several examples but the combination of aria and chorus in BWV 16/3 and the highly contrasting sections of what is otherwise a traditional da capo aria in BWV 151 really do stand out. An appreciation of this point does, as you suggest, explain so much when it comes to apparently different settings of virtually identical texts.

Jean Laaninen wrote (August 8, 2007):
[To Julian Mincham] I am going to vote with Julian, now that I've had a cto listen to BWV 110 again. I think the texts and the music fit very well indeed. I also felt the use of flutes, strings and trumpets in this cantata added quite a bit of dimension to the texts, and seemed very Christmasy to me. The final chorale, while I'm still adjusting to minor mode for the end of the cantatas is selected with an eye to depth perception on the event, I believe. There were several instances where it seemed to me little bits of folk style rhythms and tunes might have been incorporated and were I knowledgable to a great degree about folk tunes, I might be able to say more. But these small additions bring out the folk character of the humble setting of the birth of Christ. That's enough comment from me for now since I'm not getting into details about each section, but I am comfortable with the fit...and also comfortable with diverse opinions on this matter.

Ed Myskowski wrote (August 16, 2007):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< "Lift your thoughts and senses swiftly to heaven, and think what God has done. He became man only so that we are heaven's children".
The sentiment in these words is contemplation, not joy. >
Herreweghe's [7] interpretation seems to emphasize contemplation, without exactly lacking joy. He also provides maximum contrast between solo/ripieno vocal parts. According to Dürr, this distinction was added by Bach for a subsequent performance, not in 1725.

< Likewise the text of the alto aria should be read as contrasting the miserable state of man with the hope of salvation:
"What is a child of man? A cursed worm surrounded by Hell and Satan. And yet Christ's soul and spirit, out of love, is Man's salvation."
The horror of reality (as envisaged by the librettist) is tempered by the hope of God's promise of salvation; hence the music's gentle sadness. >
This seems to be in line with Julian's emphasis on contrast within a single aria, if not precisely a personal/communal distinction. Dürr supports this contrast within Mvt. 4, 'the antithesis prescribed in the text between mankind cursed and mankind redeemed.' Nevertheless, I find Russell's outline of the architecture satisfying, deepening and darkening from beginning to Mvt. 4, and rising again to the concluding 'Alleluja!'

< The movement whose music for me at first glance does not correspond to the text is the final chorale:
''Alleluja! Praise be God, we all sing from the bottom of our hearts.
For God has today made such joy we shall never forget it".
The music is noble and solemn, rather than joyful; perhaps Bach wants to remind his congregation that a celebration of Christ's birthday must perforce be coloured by an awareness of His suffering for man's sake. >
The joy is not unrestrained, neither at beginning nor end (Mvt. 1 or Mvt. 7).

< Speaking of the final chorale, I like Herreweghe's [7] more traditional approach with 'tenuto' on the fermatas, very much like Rilling [4] and Werner [2]. This endows the movement with a more substantial aspect, in comparison with some other HIP examples.
Gardiner [10], Herreweghe [7] and Harnoncourt [5] have lovely duets (with Harnoncourt having the most vivid and satisfying continuo; Rilling's continuo [4] is heavy and un-phrased, as is often the case); Rotzsch's singers have the wost type of heavy vibrato. Overall, Herreweghe's recording [7] will probably be judged the finest of the period performances. Rilling and Werner [2] both give satisfying modern instrument performances, with minor problems. >
I find Herreweghe [7] outstanding as an overall performance, and especially superior to Gardiner [10] and Leusink [9] in Mvt. 1, where quick tempo and exaggerated dotted rhythm overwhelm the contemplative aspect. Leusink also has a staccato effect in the chorale (and in BWV 137, as well) which is perhaps intended to be joyous, but suffers by comparison.

I enjoyed the opportunity to hear Thamm [1] on LP, every bit the equal of Werner [2], I think, and both superior to the period performances, other than Herreweghe [7], for this music. If the Cantate series is ever reissued, they are not to be missed. In the meantime, we are fortunate to have such a variety of recordings available.

Keeping in mind Julian's emphasis on contrasts, I found BWV 137/BWV 164 to make a contrasting pair on consecutive weeks, and perhaps a prelude to the present pair, BWV 110/BWV 57.

Julian Mincham wrote (August 16, 2007):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< The movement whose music for me at first glance does not correspond to the text is the final chorale: >
A good point and this is not, in my experience altogether unusual----if there is a mismatch it tends (I believe) usually to be found in the closing chorales. Which might suggest that Bach did not always choose the chorales himself. Or it might be that he did what he could to with them and reserved the greater part of his original thinking and textual interpretation to the rest of the work which he composed himself from scratch and had maximum control over.

Neil Halliday wrote (August 17, 2007):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< The joy is not unrestrained, neither at beginning nor end (Mvt. 1 or Mvt. 7). >
This is quite so.

In fact, the so-called 'Grave' sections of the opening movement of BWV 110/1 (same as the 4^th Orchestral Suite) are most pleasing, IMO, if performances express a gracious and noble aspect, rather than the lively, somewhat disjointed motion that many HIP examples bring to these sections. Schweitzer wrote of these suites "a fragment of a vanished world of grace and elegance has been preserved for us", which seems to epitomise a performance I have on LP (Menuhin/Bath Festival Chamber Orchestra, 1961). Menuhin brings a lovely grace to the 'Grave' sections; and the striking diminished and minor harmonies over the long pedal point in the continuo have more than a hint of pathos.

The joy is of course quite overt in the 'fast' section to which Bach added the vocal parts. Werner [2] is excellent in this vocal section, being livelier than Rilling [4] whose tempo is a bit slow. Werner ignores the ripieni/soli contrast, but it's not something I miss while listening to his recording.

Bradley Lehman wrote (August 17, 2007):
< I enjoyed the opportunity to hear Thamm [1] on LP, every bit the equal of Werner [2], I think, and both superior to the period performances, other than Herreweghe [7], for this music. If the Cantate series is ever reissued, they are not to be missed. In the meantime, we are fortunate to have such a variety of recordings available. >
Browsing the http://www.rondeau.de site a few minutes ago, to look up the Windsbach cantatas recording for my other posting, I saw a note there that Thamm died in March. They have a short bio there:
http://www.rondeau.de/webbusiness_e/files/kuenstler/hthamm.shtml

It says they have these two recordings of his on CD:

60 years of the Windsbach
http://www.rondeau.de/webbusiness_e/query.php?cp_sid=2891376351c&cp_tpl=5504&cp_pid=180&cp_cat=

and the mixed program "Singet dem Herrn"
http://www.rondeau.de/webbusiness_e/query.php?cp_sid=2891376351c&cp_tpl=5504&cp_pid=218&cp_cat=

Cantata BWV 110: Complete Recordings | Recordings of Individual Movements | Discussions

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Last update: ýAugust 18, 2007 ý09:52:48