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Bach's altos |
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Bernard Sherman wrote (July 16, 1998):John Howell writes: < Now that brings up an interesting question. The English cathedral tradition seems quite clear: the boys were trebles, young men (countertenors) were altos. Does anyone actually know whether the same was true for bach's singers or not? The boys at the Thomaschule were not, of course, a "boy's choir" in the sense of the Vienna Choirboys or the American Boychoir. Evidence? The uniform SATB choral writing of Bach. So since university students sang the tenor and bass, did they also sing the alto? > This is a tricky issue, and I've discussed it with various people over the years. All we know for sure about Bach's Leipzig practice is that the body of students from which he drew his singers ranged up to 23 years of age--that is, it included young men as well as boys. Thus, in principle, his altos could have been either boys or men. Although modern performers have sometimes assumed that Bach used boys (pre-pubescent males, i.e.) to sing the alto parts in his cantatas, there is exactly no positive evidence that he did so. But is there positive evidence for his using adult male altos? Well--not really; but a couple of things suggest that possibility. First, I find it interesting that in a 1729 memo he praises a certain 14-year-old (that is, probably pre-pubescent) named Neucke, who is listed as an alto, for having a "strong voice and quite fine proficiency"; but in the famous Entwurff from 1730, Neucke (now 15?) is listed only among the motet singers, who need more training before they are ready to sing concerted music, i.e., cantatas. Perhaps that at least suggests that the altos Bach used in cantatas were older, that is, post-pubescent. Perhaps not; it's slim evidence at best. His 1720 sentence could have just meant "quite fine proficiency for a motet singer." And, who knows, Neucke may have hit puberty earlier than the 14-year-olds who are listed as sopranos. But still. Another reason: Joshua Rifkin points out that the standard practice in the German courts of the time was to use adult males to sing alto (this is well documented by court payment records and the like). This applies to Weimar, so in the Weimar cantatas, Bach did use adult males on the alto lines. In the absence of any other information, we might guess that he observed this practice when he got to Leipzig, since it was (again) standard in German courts. Conclusions: (a) At the very least, we cannot assume that boys sang the Bach alto lines; (b) Men are at least as likely, indeed more so. < The answer would make considerable different to our perception of Bach's music. > Perhaps; but (as I'm sure John would point out as well) even if Bach's altos were men, it is not at all clear that their style of tone production, declamation, or phrasing would have resembled the now-familiar style of English countertenors. To deal just with production: adult male altos in Bach's Germany may well have used more chest voice in the lower notes than today's English countertenors do. Or they may in general have been high tenors rather than simply falsettists. Hope this helps, |
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Bach's Altos... |
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Brian Link wrote (March 9, 2002):Just wanted to poke my head in this specialist newsgroup and ask a few questions. I observe two types of "alto" written for by Bach. One a mezzo-soprano ("Erbarme Dich"), the other more of an haute-contre ("Wiederstehe, doch ihr Sunden"). The current continental tradition places alto lines in the custody of boy altos. I therefore assume that the "mezzo" alto soloist Bach had in mind was a boy, and perhaps the "haute-contre" soloist a high tenor. Does this reflect current understanding? Is there any evidence that Bach ever employed falsettists? As a countertenor, I often find myself pressed into duty to perform Bach as a nod to "authenticity". My own understanding is that there were no falsettists in Bach's choirs, so I hope to either be proved wrong, or to at least gain a better understanding of the character of the voice I'm meant to represent. Thanks for any info you can pass along. |
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Tom Hens wrote (March 9, 2002):[To Brian Link] When Bach took up employment at the court of Weimar in 1708, he and his wife moved into an apartment in the house of Adam Immanuel Weldig, who was employed as a falsettist in the court chapel. So at least during his time in Weimar the ensemble that performed his music included at least one falsettist. During his time in Leipzig he obviously used boy altos from the Tomasschule. (There are several examples of colla parte accompaniment in soprano and alto arias in Leipzig cantatas, where an instrument simply doubles the vocal line, and none with tenor or bass arias, which points to a not-too-secure boy singer being given a bit of a helping hand.) Whether or not adult falsettists (university students, for instance) were also used isn't really known, to the best of my knowledge. My purely personal guess would be that they probably were, given Bach's frustration over the lack of singers I don't think he would have turned down any competent singer who was willing to help out. |
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Mark Slater wrote (March 9, 2002):Is falsettist the right word, or boy soprano and male alto? WILD EAGLE 1053: I am not a good speller Meteorite52: how long is it ? |
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Beth Diane Garfinkel wrote (March 10, 2002):[To Mark Slater] Well, that depends. A "male alto" usualy implies an adult male singing falsette. Apparently what Bach used wsa more likely to be a pre-adolescent boy whose voice was on the low side. Some children do have alto voices. My sister did as a little girl and by and large still does, for example. |
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Charles Francis wrote (March 10, 2002):[To Brian Link] Joshua Rifkin, a reputed scholar regarding Bach's vocal forces, notes that the churches at Leipzig used boys for the soprano, while boys and perhaps young falsettists were used for the alto. This provides a context for Bach's later religious works. Rifkin notes an important exception, however, in relation to Bach's B minor Mass (BWV 232), since the electoral chapel at Dresden appears to have had only adult singers, castratos and women as sopranos. However, it remains uncertain as to whether these women sang in church as well as in the opera. Hope this helps somewhat. |
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Altos |
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Continue of discussion from: Voice Types [General Topics] |
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Michael Telles wrote (January 24, 2005):[To Bradley Lehman] Here's a question which may may not be entirely relevant: is the "countertenor" a relatively recent phenomenon, or did Bach's age have an analogous equivalent? Is the countertenor our best attempt at a castrato sound, or are they altogether different in tone? Yoshikazu Mera knocks me out; his voice has such a strange, haunting, detached sound. Have you heard his singing on BWV 54? Unbelievable, as is BWV 161. I haven't heard any others of his particular tone. Didn't mean to cut in on the gender conversation. |
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Doug Cowling wrote (January 25, 2005):[To Michael Telles] If you thought the question of who sang "soprano' was controverted, wait till we start in on who sang "alto"! In !8th century Germany, boys sang the alto parts. This is still the custom with boys' choirs in Germany. This is the "top-down" solution with the head tone extended downwards into the lower register. Many boys have surprisingly large voices in this register. The early Harnoncourt soloists were very interesting voices. In England, the alto parts were sung by male altos who cultivated the head-tone after their voices changed. You can tell an English alto by asking him to sing from middle C to the G above it. They can do it two ways: one in head voice and another in their normal changedvoice. The arrival of the Queen Mother's casket at Westminster Hall was accompanied by the Abbey choir singing ATTB superbly. In France, there was a special voice type the "haute-contre" or real counter-tenor. This was a tenor who extended a light tenor sound upwards without any "break" - the point around E above middle C where most men have to shift to a falsetto. It's hard to know what this voice sounded like although many contemporary counter-tenors on the opera and concert circuit have developed an ability to rise across the break without shifting gears. In Italy, the countertenor was probably the voice type used through to the early Baroque but they were quickly replaced by castrati. Women did not sing alto in church music except in the unique situation of Vivaldi's Pieta choir where the women sang everything -- soprano, alto, tenor AND bass! Women of course sang in opera where every voice type was encountered. There were even female coloratura altos. The ubiquitous use of English-style altos in Bach today ignores the fact the voice type was unknown to the composer. The modern concert industry cannot accommodate chiildren. There was a hilarious incident a few years ago when the child-labour laws were tightened up in Austria, so tight in fact that the Vienna Choir Boys couldn't sing Christmas Midnight Mass for the first time in centuries! |
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Michael Telles wrote (January 25, 2005):[To Doug Cowling] Thank you for taking the time to answer a question that I'm sure is rudimentary. I'll be saving your response for future reference! It completely cleared things up for me. |
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Yoël L. Arbeitman (January 25, 2005):Doug Cowling wrote: < In France, there was a special voice type the "haute-contre" or real counter-tenor. This was a tenor who extended a light tenor sound upwards without any "break" - the point around E above middle C where most men have to shift to a falsetto. It's hard to know what this voice sounded like although many contemporary counter-tenors on the opera and concert circuit have developed an ability to rise across the break without shifting gears. > Marc-Antoine Charpentier was a haute-contre. Unfortunately most CDs I have in their French part use the term haute-contre for counter-tenor whilst the German mostly says Altus. Yes, occasionally pseudo-french seems to use contre-ténor. |
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Bradley Lehman (January 25, 2005):< Women did not sing alto in church music except in the unique situation of Vivaldi's Pieta choir where the women sang everything -- soprano, alto, tenor AND bass! Women of course sang in opera where every voice type was encountered. There were even female coloratura altos. > Likewise, and for similar reasons of the original performance conditions, I'm still hoping to hear an all-female performance of Purcell's "Dido and Aeneas" someday. The Aeneas part does go down only to tenor D, which is well within reach. |
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Bradley Lehman (January 25, 2005):<< In France, there was a special voice type the "haute-contre" or real counter-tenor. >> < Marc-Antoine Charpentier was a haute-contre. > So were Henry Purcell and Antonio Lotti. In the latter's motet "In omni tribulatione" the way the fugal bit leads off with Lotti's own sung line reminds me of the finale of Brandenburg 4, leading off with Bach's viola. Or, viola leads in the Mozart string quartets. Who better to establish the correct mood and tempo but the composer? |
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The Bach Altos |
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Continue of discussion from: Cantata BWV 83 - Discussions Part 2 |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (February 28, 2006):Eric Bergerud wrote: < So I'd like to put a simple question to the musically wise on the list. Why chose a countertenor over a mezzo at all? Desire to reproduce any kind of "authentic" performance can't be part of the equation as boys have been shown the door by everyone since Harnoncourt finished his cycle. Are some cantatas better suited to one type of sound as opposed to another? > My objection to the use of male altos, falsettists, counter-tenors or haute-contres in Bach is that they produce a sound completely different than that of the teenaged boy altos which sang in Bach's choirs. The very term "altus" (=high) was assigned to adult males because they were singing in a high register and this produced a clear but highly intense sound. If we look at a work like the triple choir "Magnificat" of Gabrieli from the turn of the 17th century, we see that the layout of the voices is SSAT, SATB and ATTB. When sung by modern choirs with women as altos, the third choir sounds hopelessly mudddy because the women are singing in their lowest register. Put male altos on the line and the choir suddenly sounds as bright as the SSAT choir. Choirs with boys on the soprano line and adult male altos has been standard in England to this day. In France, the alto line was taken by the haute-contre singers who rather than using falsetto, extended the tenor voice upwards (there are very few singers today who can recreate this technique). In Spain, male falsettists often sang both soprano and alto. In Italy, boys for the most part took the soprano line with male altos, but the castrati soon displaced both. Interestingly, the Sistine Chapel Choir did not have male altos or boys until the end of the 19th century when the final castrati died off. There is a early recording of a castrato. In Germany (in both the Catholic and Lutheran churches) the composition of the choirs was different. Boys sang both the soprano and alto parts. We can assume that as boys entered their teens, they gradually moved to the alto line as their voices became heavier as puberty approached. Today when boys' voices are changing as early as 12 years of age, we really can't hear the sound that an older teenager would have made in Bach's choir -- Haydn's voice did not change until he was 18! I suspect that some boys were able to extend the sound of their voices beyond puberty without resorting to falsetto. This still happens with boys today who sing past the time when the rest of their bodies have moved on to other hormonal manifestations. The "Bach Alto" was an older teenager with a rather large, baritonal-sounding voice. It was not the laser-beam intense voice of the modern counter-tenor. There are many examples of arias where the counter-tenor voice simply fights Bach's music. The most notorious example is "Es ist Vollbracht" where the voice is clearly intended to be dark like the obligato viola. The modern counter-tenor's sound is just too bright . The logistical problem of course is that it is impossible for children to be a regular component of the professional Bach performance industry. There just aren't enough boys to go around anyway. What I object to is the fuzzy thinking that because counter-tenors sound "Ye Olde" to the general public that they should sing the music. Today, it is almost a Period Performance Commandment that counter-tenors should be used, when in fact a good argument could be made that women mezzos actually produce a sound closer to the historic Bach Alto. |
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Julian Mincham wrote (February 28, 2006):This discussion brings to mind an interview (interspersed with his recordings) with Scholl on BBC radio 3---a few years ago---possibly it was one of the weekly broadcasts from Bach year. He made the point that, at moments which conveyed great spirituality, Bach often used the male alto voice. He quoted a number of examples including the well known alto arias from SMP BWV 244 and the sublime 'es ist voll-bracht' from SJP BWV 245. The C18 associations with the different voice ranges was also referred to bt J Elliot Gardiner in the recent BBC 3 Bach Christmas. My own view is that this is one of those areas where true 'authenticity' is not possible--I would guess that Koopman's pragmatic approach might suggest that this is his position. I have heard excellent renditions of all these arias by both male and female voices--but, for my taste the female voice needs to be not too 'thick' or overladen with vibrato as was oftethe case with mid C20 singers. The lighter mezzo coloratura voice can often be very effective. But who can deny the searing beauty of a great male alto of whom Alfred Deller was surely the patriach. His recordings of the solo alto cantatas (BWV 170 and BWV 54) stand supreme even 50 years on---as do his versions of individual movements such as the Agnus Die from the Great Mass (BWV 232). I don't think that anyone has improved on the sheer musical range of vocal colour that Deller brought to these works. (Incidentally, for Deller fans harmonia mundi brought out, in 2004 to mark 25 years since Deller's death, a 4 CD box of his work----opera and stage music, sacred song, solo song and folksong-----unfortunately no Bach though!) |
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Tom Hens wrote (March 1, 2006):Douglas Cowling wrote: < My objection to the use of male altos, falsettists, counter-tenors or haute-contres in Bach is that they produce a sound completely different than that of the teenaged boy altos which sang in Bach's choirs. > A blanket statement that Bach didn't use falsettists and only teenage boy altos is demonstrably false. When he moved to Weimar, he moved into an appartment in the house of Adam Immanuel Weldig, one of the six singers employed by the court chapel, with the job description "falsettist". (He's also the man from whom C.P.E. later got his third name.) Weldig was 41 at the time. Besides Weldig, two tenors and a bass, the chapel also employed two male "discantists", i.e. sopranos. Wolff doesn't give their years of birth, but these are all full-time adult court employees, not schoolboys. This doesn't exclude the additional use of boy sopranos and altos from the local Gymnasium, of course, but at least for the Weimar cantatas we know with absolute certainty that male falsettists must have been used for soprano and alto parts. As to the Leipzig works, even assuming he only used singers from the Thomasschule for those parts (which I don't think can either be proven or disproven), it's quite possible that some of the older pupils in that school had moved on to singing alto, or even soprano, parts in falsetto. This is still common practice in English cathedral choirs, where trebles whose voice break often continue singing as countertenors. This avoids the long break that is usual in places where there aren't any countertenors in choirs, and boys have to wait until their voice settles down before they can sing again. Many English countertenors got started in their voice range this way. < In France, the alto line was taken by the haute-contre singers who rather than using falsetto, extended the tenor voice upwards (there are very few singers today who can recreate this technique). > It might be worth pointing out that just what constitutes "falsetto" or not, especially when you're trying to interpret written accounts from centuries ago, can't be established with certainty. Until very recent advances in medical technology put things on a somewhat more scientific footing, a lot of descriptions of vocal technique were (and most still are) highly subjective, and very often based on completely erroneous ideas held by both singers and listeners about what the singer is doing anatomically. The field also shows a high number of arguments from supposed authority that are endlessly repeated with great confidence, but without any factual underpinning that I can see. (I'm thinking of claims like: "Women don't have a falsetto register", which I've seen several times, never with any anatomical explanation as to what the speaker means with "falsetto", and why only male vocal tracts would be capable of doing it.) < when in fact a good argument could be made that women mezzos actually produce a sound closer to the historic Bach Alto. > Without any recordings of historic Bach Altos to listen to, that remains an extremely subjective opinion. I've heard some (not many) wonderful boy altos, and I wouldn't be unhappy if all alto parts in Bach were sung by voices like that. But none of them sounded in the least like any female alto I've ever heard. Just like female sopranos never sound like boy sopranos, BTW. If they did sound the same, why bother with boy singers and all the practical problems they entail in the first place? |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (March 1, 2006):Tom Hens wrote: < A blanket statement that Bach didn't use falsettists and only teenage boy altos is demonstrably false. When he moved to Weimar, he moved into an appartment in the house of Adam Immanuel Weldig, one of the six singers employed by the court chapel, with the job description "falsettist". (He's also the man from whom C.P.E. later got his third name.) Weldig was 41 at the time. Besides Weldig, two tenors and a bass, the chapel also employed two male "discantists", i.e. sopranos. > Thanks for the correction. I still labour under the heresy that Bach's Leipzig situation was normative for all of his music. |
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Jeremy Vosburgh wrote (March 1, 2006):Counter-tenors I unfortunately don't have the large scholarly knowledge that many of you have been demonstrating the past two days. Hence, please imagine an invisible IMHO before each thing I am about to say! I do have an opinion that I thought I'd share. I vastly prefer counter-tenors, but not for any of the reasons people have been discussing. I respect the reasoning of Doug and the lexicon and literature that Thomas brings. I simply like that fact that the four parts SATB when all sung by males give entirely contrasting sounds from four versions of the same sex person. For example, you have the extremes of expression by having a man sing the very low voice of Jesus/God. You also have a male singing the high part of the Christian soul. The tenor is the most normal sounding voice and represents a commentary or narration. That leaves the alto which is by far the most interesting. The alto voice represents the holy spirit and allusions/conversations about it. To have a woman sing it would sound too much like "mother." The admittedly strange and bright sound of the counter-tenor voice is the sound that a man can make but isn't normally associated with. This removes the "sex" of the voice and makes it idealy suited to the complex personification of the holy spirit. The voice of the soul, the soprano, is also a rather difficult part to intepret for a woman. Many on this list have slammed Harny's boys as shreaking and howling off pitch. This unfortunately is true for most of them. But what I have found is that the good boys (Jelosits why did you have to grow up!) gave a naive yet dignified edge to the often naive part that the soprano represents in the soul. A women soprano interpreting the same part would end up sounding like "joan of arc" or a little girl, in her attempt to sound wishful or naive. In other words, many of the female soprano singers I've heard (especially with all the high notes Bach likes to interject at random times for emotional effect) sound plain old "emotionally unstable", while when sung by a boy sound simply what it is supposed to sound like: naive and innocent. You know that the boy will grow up some day. You're never quite sure about the female soprano. All this being said, I prefer women to boys and counter-tenors in Bach's secular cantatas. It is only the sacred pieces where you need the contrast in voices from the same "sex" singer to exemplify the personifications of the parts they are interpreting. The problem I have with most Bach singers today (excluding tenors) is that they throw too much of their mature humanity in your face. Bach's soprano was supposed to be naively innocent. His alto was supposed to be rather removed and other worldly. His bass like Jesus himself. If those aren't tall orders, I don't know what is. Feel free to rip these opinions apart. |
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John Pike wrote (March 1, 2006):[To Julian Mincham] I agree with this very strongly. With singing like that of Deller inBWV 54 and BWV 170, who cares about authenticity? |
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D. Kerr wrote (March 1, 2006):[To Douglas Cowling] AGREE ! The ultimate sound for the cantatas is BOY altos. Not only teenagers, though--too often, in the past, we rejected younger boys at try-outs because they couldn't "hit the high notes". (Or, worse, we took them and forced them into the soprano range.) They were natural ALTOS--what a waste, over the years, of good musicians and good readers. I loathe the countertenor hoot (especially the British one), which destroys tambre and texture of Bach choral works... |
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Julian Mincham wrote (March 1, 2006):D. Kerr writes: < I loathe the countertenor hoot (especially the British one), which destroys tambre and texture of Bach choral works... > A bit sweeping surely? Does this apply to Deller? I do hope not! |
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Julian Mincham wrote (March 1, 2006):John Pike writes: < I agree with this very strongly. With singing like that of Deller in BWV 54 and BWV 170, who cares about authenticity? > I'm so grateful that I am not the only one who continues to adore Deller's performances---I was beginning to think I was!! He is still one of the very few singers who's recordings can bring tears to the eyes because of the sheer beauty of his sound and phrasing. |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (March 1, 2006):Julian Mincham wrote: < A bit sweeping surely? Does this apply to Deller? I do hope not! > Deller was a consummate interpreter and a pioneer in early music, but no can really say that he had a beautiful voice nor a dependable technique. Over and over in his recordings you hear him gasping for air and reaching for high notes that just aren't there. The Deller Consort's recording of Medieval Carols is one of my favourite recordings, but his performance for "Conditor Fut" is just embarrassing. His performance in the original recording of Britten's "Midsummer Night's Dream" is wonderful, more so because the voice can barely get the notes -- Britten reduced the orchestration after the first performance to help him. The next generation of counter-tenors such as James Bowman had much finer natural voices and had learned to use them effectively. The present generation of singers, such as Daniel Taylor, can really sing the Baroque repertoire. Alas, Deller could not. |
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D. Kerr wrote (March 2, 2006):Julian Mincham wrote: < I'm so grateful that I am not the only one who continues to adore Deller's performances---I was beginning to think I was!! He is still one of the very few singers who's recordings can bring tears to the eyes because of the sheer beauty of his sound and phrasing. > DELLER is at his best singing "Where the bee sucks, there suck I" (sic!) For Bach, forget him! |
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D. Kerr wrote (March 2, 2006):[To Douglas Cowling] ESPECIALLY TO DELLER ! |
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Yoël L. Aebeitman wrote (March 2, 2006):D Kerr wrote: < DELLER is at his best singing "Where the bee sucks, there suck I" (sic!) For > What is this, please do tell. Not all of us collect sucking songs:-). |
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Yoël L. Aebeitman wrote (March 2, 2006):Julian Mincham wrote: < I'm so grateful that I am not the only one who continues to adore Deller's performances---I was beginning to think I was!! He is still one of the very few singers who's recordings can bring tears to the eyes because of the sheer beauty of his sound and phrasing. > Yes, having revisited this on its CD incarnation (had the LP forever), it remains impressive in the extreme, something which I cannot say about the Tippett conducted Purcell "Hail! Bright Cecilia" which I find pretty awful, Deller or no Deller. |
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D. Kerr wrote (March 2, 2006):Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote: < What is this, please do tell. Not all of us collect sucking songs:-). > Song, I believe, by Purcell--REALLY--Shakespeare text. |
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Yoël L. Aebeitman wrote (March 2, 2006):[To D. Kerr] Thank you. I am sure that it is real. I was just ignorant. |
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D. Kerr wrote (March 2, 2006):Where the bee sucks, there suck I; In a cowslip's bell I lie; There I couch when owls do cry. On the bat's back I do fly After summer merrily. Merrily, merrily shall I live now Under the blossom that hangs on the bough. There's an old (MHS?) LP of Deller with this on it... |
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D. Kerr wrote (March 2, 2006):Not any more ignorant than I was for writing "tambre" (EEK--AAAAARGH--must be age--or something) instead of "timbre"--surprised no one jumped at the chance to... |
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Raymond Jolly wrote (March 2, 2006):[To D. Kerr] The sucking bee is Ariel (TEMPEST, V i). |
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John Pike wrote (March 2, 2006):Julian Mincham wrote: < I'm so grateful that I am not the only one who continues to adore Deller's performances---I was beginning to think I was!! He is still one of the very few singers who's recordings can bring tears to the eyes because of the sheer beauty of his sound and phrasing. > I agree. My father has a number of old LPs with him singing in a broad repertoire and I grew up loving his voice from an early age. I know that Brad Lehman also thinks very highly of his recording of BWV 54 and BWV 170. |
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John Pike wrote (March 2, 2006):D Kerr wrote: < DELLER is at his best singing "Where the bee sucks, there suck I" (sic!) For Bach, forget him! > I can certainly agree with you about Deller's singing of this (and indeed many other Shakespeare songs) but, as you know, I am great admirer of his Bach in BWV 54 and BWV 170 as well. |
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Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (March 2, 2006):[To John Pike] Yes, having revisited this on its CD incarnation (had the LP forever), it remains impressive in the extreme, something which I cannot say about the Tippett conducted Purcell "Hail! Bright Cecilia" which I find pretty awful, Deller or no Deller. |
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Santu de Silva wrote (March 2, 2006):Suction Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote: < What is this, please do tell. Not all of us collect sucking songs:-). > Shakespeare's words in Tempest set to music by Arne, I believe (or maybe Purcell). Very lovely. |
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Julian Mincham wrote (March 2, 2006):Douglas Cowling wrote: < Deller was a consummate interpreter and a pioneer in early music, but no can really say that he had a beautiful voice nor a dependable technique. Over and over in his recordings you hear him gasping for air and reaching for high notes that just aren't there. The Deller Consort's recording of Medieval Carols is one of my favourite recordings, but his performance for "Conditor Fut" is just embarrassing. His performance in the original recording of Britten's "Midsummer Night's Dream" is wonderful, more so because the voice can barely get the notes -- Britten reduced the orchestration after the first performance to help him. The next generation of counter-tenors such as James Bowman had much finer natural voices and had learned to use them effectively. The present generation of singers, such as Daniel Taylor, can really sing the Baroque repertoire. Alas, Deller could not. > A view with which I disagree so strongly that I am tempted to reply with passion rather than with academic restraint. Before responding to the criticism above, I revisted Deller's recordings of Bach, Purcell and folk song to see what I had been missing. Whatever it is, I am still missing it. I know that Deller fought a hard battle in the early days against academics who thought that his lack institutional/academic training made him an inferior musician, but I thought this attitude was long since dead. I saw Deller (with Desmonde Dupre, lute) live when he was at the peak on his powers. I have seldom had the experience of being within an audience of hundreds completely tranfixed by the musicianship with one man with such a relatively small sound (Segovia, before his later decline could do it too as I also was lucky enough to experience) However, as with so many artists if one didn't see them live one can only judge by the recordings which may or may not be a good representation of their art--but it's all we can do. I cannot see how anyone can make the sweeping claim that 'no can really say that he had a beautiful voice'. DougCowling is entirely justified in saying that he does not find the voice to be 'beautiful" But he cannot make that claim for me--or anyone else. I continue to find it a most beautiful sound constantly enhanced by the continuously varied vocal colour which, to my ear,e ven some of the greatest singers of recent years lack. It is a matter of individual taste and judgement--but please, Mr Cowling, express you own but to not attempt to speak for the rest of us! Re technique, true he had his faults. One can often hear him touching a high note and moving quickly away from it before it shows too much--but as often as not this is a calculated part of the phrasing and a possible weakness is turned into a strength. And he could be accused of a degree of cheating in that both BWV 170 and BWV 54 are transposed down--one a tone the other a semitone. Whilst remaining inconsistent, this is not out of line with the thinking of the time (the Bach cantatas were recorded 52 years ago) when it was generally believed that concert pitch had risen between a tone and a semitone over the centuries. (Modern scholarship has revealed a much more complicated story about the pitches used in Bach's time, often reflected in contemporary performance. Koopman's recording of BWV 170 is down a semitone and BWV 54 --with Andreas Scholl-- is actually up one semitone.) Deller's excursions with Britten and other directors were not usually so successful the reason being that he was, by nature, an individualist who gave his best as a soloist or as the leader of a small ensemble. His voice and temperament were unsuited to Covent Garden and the large orchestral forces. (Rather like Art Tatum in an entirely different musical world, he gave of his best on his own or with minimal ensemble). For myself I would not like to be without his versions of the cantatas although I would not want them to be the only ones. I would not wish to live without his many other excellent renditions of Purcell (ode to music, for example) and the Bach Agnus Dei. I do not believe that his technical limitations are such that they detract strongly from the beauty of phrasing and musical colouring and I find nothing in the cantata recordings that is embarrassing. Mr Cowling has a perfect right to his opinions; but they are his ----and others will differ. I think that Aryeh's notes on Deller to be found on the website are balanced and informative. |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (March 2, 2006):Julian Mincham wrote: < A view with which I disagree so strongly that I am tempted to reply with passion rather than with academic restraint. Before responding to the criticism above, I revisted Deller's recordings of Bach, Purcell and folk song to see what I had been missing. Whatever it is, I am still missing it. I know that Deller fought a hard battle in the early days against academics who thought that his lack institutional/academic training made him an inferior musician, but I thought this attitude was long since dead. > I hope I expressed my admiration for Deller's artistry adequately in my previous posting, but I stand by my feeling that his metier was the Renaissance repertoire not the Baroque. It's interesting to compare Deller to Russell Oberlin, another pioneering counter-tenor. His famous recording of Baroque arias -- the first by a counter-tenor, I think -- shows a much more natural voice and a more consistent technique. |
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Yoël L. Aebeitman wrote (March 2, 2006):Julian Mincham wrote: < For myself I would not like to be without his versions of the cantatas although I would not want them to be the only ones. I would not wish to live without his many other excellent renditions of Purcell (ode to music, for example) and the Bach Agnus Dei. I do not believe that his technical limitations are such that they detract strongly from the beauty of phrasing and musical colouring and I find nothing in the cantata recordings that is embarrassing. Mr Cowling has a perfect right to his opinions; but they are his ----and others will differ. I think that Aryeh's notes on Deller to be found on the website are balanced and informative. > I am sure that on all music lists when each of us gets somewhat less than precise in his phraseology and careful choosing of his wording, he will tend to make sweeping statements. I don't know Doug or anyone else on this list (in a way that I have come over the years to know persons on other lists, some for the worse and some for the better). However, while I am in no need of speaking for him, I am rather sure that he was expressing only his own opinion. On lists such as this one where persons post incessantly one does not always phrase things in such a way as to say that "to my ears his sound is wanting in X or Y way". All such judgments are very subjective. There are obviously matters in music that are objective. Did that violin come in a milli-second too late? Was the pitch lowered for singer W? And many other matters. However that one person is swept away by a certain interpreter and another person is not very much moved by him, this is a matter of personal "chemistry". While I am personally deeply fond of the Deller Bach (the Agnus Dei with the two cantatas), I am even more overwhelmed by any Bach and Mahler which Hilde Rössl-Majdan did and I have found over the years on lists (Mahler, Bach, and opera) that just about nobody in the world shares my passion for this singer. Doesn't really bother me in the least. Recently I ran into a private recording of a German radio broadcast where she did Berlioz's Kassandra in German with Josef Traxel as the Aeneas. Since I deem her a true contralto and not a mezzo, I did not expect much of this Funkfassung of Berlioz's huge work. In the event I found her Kassandra magnificent as likewise I so find Traxel's Aeneas. Alas the Dido is not very interesting at all. And so it goes. My first occasion of being flamed about music did not occur on a list. It occurred in NYC's Avery Fisher Hall when a work-mate came up to me and simply dismissed the Rössl-Majdan cantata BWV 53 recording. As I recall (but it was so many years ago) he was enamored of the Helen Watts recording. More to the point, is the Deller Bach CD still not available? I got it when Vanguard/ Bach Guild was having a going out of business sale on the web a few years ago. I replaced my LP of that and of whatever Vanguard Rössl-Majdan was available which, alas, did not include the C.P.E. Bach Magnificat. The real point is that it is a privilege and a pleasure or it should be to have a few persons with whom to discuss these things. I do not believe that for most of us (who are not in Bach church choirs and related institutions) we have occasion in daily life to discuss whether we respond to Lesne or Ledroit or Deller or Rössl-Majdan and so forth (pardon the syntax there). May Ahura Mazda allow us all our individual tastes and thus fulfill a divine purpose which often becomes one of mutual intolerance. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (March 3, 2006):Yoel L. Arbeitman wrote: < The real point is that it is a privilege and a pleasure or it should be to have a few persons with whom to discuss these things. I do not believe that for most of us (who are not in Bach church choirs and related institutions) we have occasion in daily life to discuss whether we respond to Lesne or Ledroit or Deller or Rössl-Majdan and so forth (pardon the syntax there). > Easy to pardon the syntax (here or there), because the meaning is perfectly clear. I agree with the meaning. < May Ahura Mazda allow us all our individual tastes and thus fulfill a divine purpose which often becomes one of mutual intolerance. > OK, how about a little tolerance for the scholars, right or wrong (or even just aggravating)? It has only been a few years since scholars and Church were one. With precious little tolerance for creative thinking. Think Galileo, as a famous example. Then along came Luther, the Lutherans, and Bach. Soon enough, precious little tolerance between Lutherans and Calvinists.(Pardon the approximate history). And even less tolerance for creativity ("Hey, Sebastian, why the girl in the choir loft?"). More in coming weeks regarding Rössel-Majdan, who I know from early LPs (Scherchen on Westminster, reissued on CD, I believe). Girl in the choir loft, indeed. Not to mention Helen Watts and BWV 83 (light alto? I am not saying another word about that!). |
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Neil Halliday wrote (March 3, 2006):Helen Watts in BWV 83/1 (wasThe Bach Alto) Ed Myskowski wrote: <<"Not to mention Helen Watts and BWV 83 (light alto? I am not saying another word about that!)">>. I might be missing something, but I wish you would enlarge on this! I normally find Helen Watts' vibrato to be distracting, in the Rilling cycle; but in this piece she seems to complement the strong instrumentation - a violin concerto fortified with oboes and horns - in a pleasing, or at least tolerable, fashion (and I notice John Pike shares this view). Even when I turn the volume up, as I believe is necessary for this cantata, on this CD, she remains in good balance with the orchestra (whereas Arleen Auger blasts me out of the room - on some high notes - if I leave the volume setting unchanged, for the next cantata). Her biography at the BCW lists her as a contralto/mezzo soprano, successfully singing Bach arias under direction of Malcom Sargent; she has also sung in Wagner's operas, which I would have thought were more suitable for her voice, but I have limited knowledge of such matters. Possibly she was past her prime during her recordings with Rilling. |
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Robert Sherman wrote (March 3, 2006):[To Ed Myskowski] Interesting all the recent discussion of Helen Watts. I had regarded her as kind of a female Gwynne Howell -- a place-filler soloist who gets the notes OK but doesn't do anything memorable with the music. -- not in the league with Baker, von Otter, or Minton. But as I re-listen to her baroque stuff more recently, I become increasingly impressed. |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (March 3, 2006):Neil Halliday wrote: < I normally find Helen Watts' vibrato to be distracting, in the Rilling cycle; but in this piece she seems to complement the strong instrumentation - a violin concerto fortified with oboes and horns - in a pleasing, or at least tolerable, fashion (and I notice John Pike shares this view). > The old recording of Watts singing "Widerstehe" is one of my all-time favourite Bach recordings. I can't listen to her "Schlage Doch" without tearing up. It's the wrong voice and the interpretation is very old-fashioned, but her artistry is incomparable. I feel the same way about the Klemperer SMP (BWV 244) and the Beecham "Messiah" -- I love hearing Jon Vickers rip the hell out of "Every Valley" and the crash cymbals in the "Hallelujah Chorus" never fail to thrill. It's all so wrong and un-Baroque, but the Wagnerian in me keeps these performances very dear. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (March 3, 2006):Ed Myskowski wrote: <<"Not to mention Helen Watts and BWV 83 (light alto? I am not saying another word about that!)">>. Neil Halliday wrote: < I might be missing something, but I wish you would enlarge on this! > Sorry for any confusion. I was just making a joke as a follow-up to a previous post. I think this particular recording (Rilling BWV 83/1 with Watts) is wonderful, an example of an excellent alto at the opposite end of the style spectrum from the boy altos (also potentially excellent) so much under discussion. Now I really am not saying another word about that! |
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Jeremy Vosburgh wrote (March 3, 2006):Majdan & Question I'm glad Yoel and Ed mentioned Hilde yesterday. She is one of the very few woman altos who has convincing sung sacred Bach in a period attempt imho (I know that seems like a contradiction in terms). I never warmed to Watts' interpretations although I greatly respect her technical ability and voice in general. That being said; I recently went on a rant about how I always prefer counter-tenors because of the greater apparent contrast in voices due to the same sex of all the singers. I must now make an exception for solo cantatas where this is not a factor. Especially with BWV 53 which is not even a Bach cantata and is very much an occasional piece. Another note: can someone tell me why with all the professional recordings of BWV 53 there is not one that uses real bells? To me this is a travesty! I don't know if any of you are pyromaniacs, but I imagine I get a similar feeling when I think about large bells! Lets all petition Suzuki to not skip BWV 53 and use real bells when he does. Can someone tell me once and for all: did bach use boy altos or late teen altos or full grown counter-tenors or some mixture? Somehow on this list, we seem to go on the subject again and again without actually nailing the truth down. Bach taught students in Leipzig. Isn't there a roll somewhere with the age and voice parts that everyone sung? How is it that we still don't seem to know today how many singers were present when the cantatas were sung. I seem to remember a description of one of his performances of the Matthew passion which described the two choirs being greatly physically separated and the evangelist and Jesus being the only soloists who were separated from the choir. If we are able to have this great detail about one performance of Bach's, why don't we seem to agree on how many singers he had per part, etc.? |
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Continue of this part of the discussion, see: Non-Bach Cantatas - Discussions Part 3 |
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Julian Mincham wrote (March 3, 2006):aesthetic opinions [To Yoël L. Arbeitman] I agree with much that you say except that I do not think that all aesthetic discussion is a matter of personal opinion. Matters of technique are frequently matters of fact--notes and rhythms may be contrary to what the composer is known to have written and this is surely, not a matter of opinion. However there is also, I feel, a more interesting 'grey area' in the matter of interpretation. Some years ago I met a man who told me that he preferred to play most of his Baroque 33 LPs at 45 RPM. He liked the quicker tempi and the brighter sounds. Admittedly this was at a time when many baroque tempi were slow and plodding; nevertheless it seemed an unacceptable distortion of the music, presenting it at the wrong pitch, with the wrong instrumental sounds etc etc. This is a problem which occurs in many ways and at many levels. Doug Cowling writes I always try to fight against the bloated Romantic style which passes for Bach in many church choirs A sentiment with which I wholly concur. The 'authentic' movements of the last 4 decades have, in part, been attempts to throw off the Romantic sediment (hooray to that) and, as Eric has already articulated, to try to find out what the composer may actually have sought for and heard---an admirable objective which still leaves room for a wide latitude of opinion as this web site testifies. But what sort of 'romantic' interpretation is simply a matter of taste, and what is such a gross distortion that it goes beyond personal taste? e.g. what of the early Stokowski transcriptions, the performances of which were sometimes so varied in tempo and rhythmically distorted as to be (in my opinion) unlistenable. I have heard the view expressed that they are great because they express the spirit of their age---which is fine if they are treated as a kind of social document but I do not think that they express the spirit of the composer.Nor do I think that they do due service to the music.But to what extent is this simply a matter of my opinion (which, of course it is) and to what extent is it a more or less universally accepted cultural view of the nature of the music? (Also, what does this say about contemporary culture and the very different views we have of Bach's music as opposed to those of 70 years ago?) So I would suggest that there is a line to drawn between what is legitimately a matter of individual taste and opinion and that which is incorrect or so bizzarely distorted as to be virtually beyond taste. Of course the line is never fixed and there is a grey area around it which invites further argument and discussion. Further to this, I'd like to add a word about kind of provocative statement designed (I assume) to stimulate reponse(as when Doug Cowling stated of Deller that no-one can say that he had a beautiful voice). This is demonstrably untrue because many people do feel it to be beautiful. As a statement of individual taste a dislike of the voice is unassailable, as a provocative statement aimed at provoking opinion it is a perfectly good stimulant. But if it is intended as an assertion of fact or an opinion which has universal acceptance (i.e. the expert has pontificated so it must be true) then it needs to be challenged. Clearly, any discussion of aethetic matters involves emotion and individual viewpoint, and perhaps because of this very fact we need to be careful and as precise as possible in the mode of expression of our opinions. One of the pleasures of this forum of discussion however is the wide range of backgrounds and experience of the listeners and contributors. I just have this niggling concern that some expressions of 'personal taste' range beyond that of avowed personal opinion. (But that is just my personal opinion!!) But hey ho---it still forms a basis for continuing and stimulating argument and discussion. |
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Ralph Johansen wrote (March 4, 2006):Doug Cowling wrote: < I hope I expressed my admiration for Deller's artistry adequately in my previous posting, but I stand by my feeling that his metier was the Renaissance repertoire not the Baroque. It's interesting to compare Deller to Russell Oberlin, another pioneering counter-tenor. His famous recording of Baroque arias -- the first by a counter-tenor, I think -- shows a much more natural voice and a more consistent technique. > A lurker lured out by Doug Cowling's observations sufficiently to say that I agree with what he says here, about both Deller and Oberlin, and I also agree that personally it would be difficult to think of Deller's voice as beautiful. To me many of his phrases were, to search for an expression, gulped or swallowed in a way that I did not find pleasing, except for the pleasure of hearing his repertoire and his accomplished stylistic renderings. I have recordings of his Purcell, English folk songs and other Renaissance and Elizabethan works, but I don't think I have anything of his performances of Bach's compositions. Counter-tenors like Oberlin and Scholl come across much more naturally, to my taste. I gather it is formal etiquette to introduce myself on first appearance. I have only recently signed on to the list. I am retired and living on Mauii, half way up Haleakala volcano. I have a lifelong love of Bach's music, having been from the age of 8 a member of a boys' and mens' choir at the Church of St. John the Evangelist in St. Paul, where my father was the baritone soloist and the organist and director was a Canadian, George Herbert Fairclough, FAGO. I have other than that little or no formal training, although I am a fairly competent sight reader. I have sung the B Minor Bass several times with different San Francisco groups, as well as the Magnificat, Christmas and Easter oratorios and many cantatas. I also have a quite extensive collection of Bach's works, vocal and instrumental, on LP and CD. My first exposure to critical reviews of music were the writings of Irving Kolodin, Harold Schonberg, and writers in the American Record Guide. I thoroughly enjoy the exchanges here and Aryeh Oron's exhaustive compilations - and with this I will return to my perch and continue to read others' informed and interesting offerings. |
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Ralph Johansen wrote (March 4, 2006):< While I am personally deeply fond of the Deller Bach (the Agnus Dei with the two cantatas), I am even more overwhelmed by any Bach and Mahler which Hilde R?ssl-Majdan did and I have found over the years on lists (Mahler, Bach, and opera) that just about nobody in the world shares my passion for this singer.> Can't remain quiet about this either. I fully agree about Rössl-Majdan. I think her performance on Cantata 106, in the duet with Poell under Scherchen, like most of her performances, is serene, sublime and unforgettable. |
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Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (March 4, 2006):Rössl-Majdan Jeremy Vosburgh wrote: < She is one of the very few woman altos who has convincing sung sacred Bach in a period attempt imho (I know that seems like a contradiction in terms). I never warmed to Watts' interpretations although I greatly respect her technical ability and voice in general. That being said; I recently went on a rant about how I always prefer counter-tenors because of the greater apparent contrast in voices due to the same sex of all the singers. I must now make an exception for solo cantatas where this is not a factor. Especially with BWV 53 which is not even a Bach cantata and is very much an occasional piece. > [To Jeremy Vosburgh and Ralph Johansen] Cantata BWV 53, when it was still by Bach, was the first place I heard Hilde Rössl-Majdan when NYC's mad DJ Bill Watson played it over and over again one night in the wee hours in the morning. This was in the early 1960s, early years of that decade. There are many great singers I appreciate both in Bach and elsewhere. In baroque some of these are counter-tenors and some are (oh, my sin!) females. There are many of either gender whom I don't appreciate. I have no firm doctrinal opinion on this matter. I do know that R-M pretty much kills me in both Bach and Mahler and try the recording of Weber's Euryanthe on Gala (a very cheap label). This is from 1949 and she is simply wild. Ralph Johansen wrote: < Can't remain quiet about this either. I fully agree about Rossl-Majdan. I think her performance on Cantata 106, in the duet with Poell under Scherchen, like most of her performances, is serene, sublime and unforgettable. > All the CANTATA performances with Scherchen are now happily easily available from Archipel and the transfers are simply stunning. Two of them are at Berkshire. The other two I had to go to Norbert and Peters for. The Matthäus-Passion with Scherchen is hard to find on CD and I spent a long time getting a copy. I never owned it on LPs. The Johannes-Passion under a conductor that nobody knows, issued on Remington LPs, I have never been able to find in any format, LPs, Tape, CDs, etc. That is a shame. We all know that a Passion takes more than one singer but for all that I do want to find this. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (March 4, 2006):Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote: < She is one of the very few woman altos who has convincing sung sacred Bach in a period attempt > By coincidence, I am listening to the alto aria from my old Westminster LP of BWV 76 (spelled Roessel-Majdan there, sorry) as I scan the mail. Truly inspiring voice. I have had this LP for many years, but never listened to it with proper respect until now. Discussion brings it out. Which was your point, Yoel, from an earlier post. A joy to have a place to share the enjoyment! Maybe I mixed up Jeremy's post with Yoel's. No matter. Denada. |
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Tom Hens wrote (March 4, 2006):Majdan & Question Jeremy Vosburgh wrote: < Can someone tell me once and for all: did bach use boy altos or late teen altos or full grown counter-tenors or some mixture? > Yes. Definitely. < Bach taught students in Leipzig. Isn't there a roll somewhere with the age and voice parts that everyone sung? > No. < How is it that we still don't seem to know today how many singers were present when the cantatas were sung. > Because it happened a long time ago, and no videotape survives. < I seem to remember a description of one of his performances of the Matthew passion which described the two choirs being greatly physically separated and the evangelist and Jesus being the only soloists who were separated from the choir. If we are able to have this great detailabout one performance of Bach's, > We aren't. If such a contemporary description existed, it would be quoted in full in every book about Bach. |
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Richard Raymond wrote (March 4, 2006):Ed Myskowski wrote: < She is one of the very few woman altos who has convincing sung sacred > Sorry but I do not agree with most of the judgements about Cantata BWV 53 and Rössl -Majdan. I think that the music (by Hoffmann or Stölzel) is very poor, those bells are ridiculous and the harmony is primitive.. The voice of Roessel-Majdan lacks harmonics and she is out of pitch on higher notes. I do prefer Maureen Forrester... |
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Old discussion |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (October 11, 2006):Back in the Spring, I responded to a note which said, approximately: <It is well know that Soprano = soul, Alto = Holy Ghost (Spirit, or Geist), Tenor = narrator, or similar, and Bass (or Baritone) = Jesus, the Savior.> I asked for the original reference, without response, at the time. Now I am already unable to recover either the post or my question, via search, so much for the marvels of technology (or my lack of skills) . I am able to remember, by the ancient but still functioning organic brain cell method, the open question. In the notes to Herreweghe, <Cantates pour Alto>, BWV 35, BWV 54, BWV 170, German original by Thomas Seedorf, Eng. trans. by Derek Yeld, typographic errors by Harmonia Mundi (presumably): In his collection of sermons,und Saitenspiel" (sic) (Coburg, 1676), the theologian Theodor Schneider writes, "The Bass is appointed / that was the belief / to be seen by JESUS / who is the basis and foundation of our salvation; you descants [trebles, sopranos] soar on high / and thus / let your prayers penetrate the clouds / and do not cease / until you reach the Almighty Trinity; see / they open up the roof on high and set poor man down before the feet of the Lord JESUS; the Holy Ghost himself bore the Alto(s) and caused them / if not with their mouths / yet with their hearts: JESUS / you Son of David / have mercy on us!". The alto was accordingly regarded as the voice of the Holy Ghost which can manifest itself in mankind in various ways. As best I can tell, the typographic error (where I inserted sic) is not critical to the meaning, but does omit most of the full title of Schneider's cited work, der Predigsammlung: "Das Lieblich-klingende Orgein und Saitspiel". The final sentence quoted: <The alto ...various ways.> is appropriately fuzzy, not to say Ghostly. Or blame it on the translator. |
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Thomas Braatz wrote (October 11, 2006):Ed myskowski wrote: >>The alto was accordingly regarded as the voice of the Holy Ghost which can manifest itself in mankind in various ways.<< >>The final sentence quoted: <The alto ...various ways.> is appropriately fuzzy, not to say Ghostly. Or blame it on the translator.<< Let's blame it on the translator. "Voice" has not been properly defined here. It is left to the reader to make the usual modern assumption that "Voice" here means a "singer who sings the alto part", but the context of this quotation is extracted from a sermon explicitly directed at and focused upon "organs and string instruments". This is no specific mention of the human voice except that, as we know, these instruments imitated singing and also had specific ranges similar to human voices. Throughout the 17th century and even as late as during Bach's tenure in Leipzig, instruments of the same type with varying ranges were grouped into 'choirs', the same word that was also used for such an assemblage of human voices. My reconstruction of the German reference is: >>der [perhaps a preposition like 'aus' is missing here] Predigtsammlung: "Das Lieblich=klingende Orgeln und Saitenspiel" (Coburg, 1676) von Theodor Schneider<< ("From the collection of sermons (Coburg, 1676) by Theodor Schneider, there is one sermon entitled ,The Pleasant-Sounding Music Played by Organs and String Instruments'"). In attempting to correct the title without having the original reference before me (some words may indeed have been spelled as you gave them or even differently with regional dialect forms of which I am not aware), I have come to the conclusion that Schneider is not referring to human voices at all but rather to 'voices' in instrumental choirs and/or organ, the former may have consisted of viols, lutes, other string instruments (violins, violas, violoncellos). Historically in the 16th and 17th century, and this may be the reason why Schneider chose this analogy, the alto part was the last part to be composed after the other three standard parts (STB) had been completed. Similarly perhaps the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit was the last of the Trinity to appear to the disciples (and to mankind), hence the connection of alto part with the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit. This may truly be an interesting conceit on the part of Theodor Schneider, but I do not think that this belongs in the same category as "the bass singer often is the 'vox Christi', the tenor singer often plays the role of the Evangelist, and the soprano singer sometimes represents the human soul." Any other thoughts on this? |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (October 11, 2006):Thomas Braatz wrote: < Historically in the 16th and 17th century, and this > may be the reason why Schneider chose this analogy, the alto part was the last part to be composed after the other three standard parts (STB) had been completed. > Do you have a source for this? |
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Thomas Braatz wrote (October 11, 2006):Douglas Cowling asked: >>Do you have a source for this?<< Kurt Gudewill's article on "Alto" in the MGG1. In the middle of the 16th century in Germany, when more and more 4-pt. compositions were being made and even more in 5-pt. writing where the alto was the 'vagans' filling in the missing gaps/intervals left behind by the other voices, the alto was "die letzterfundene Stimme" ("the last-to-be-composed voice/part"). |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (October 12, 2006):Thomas Braatz wrote: <> < In attempting to correct the title without having the original reference before me (some words may indeed have been spelled as you gave them or even differently with regional dialect forms of which I am not aware), I have come to the conclusion that Schneider is not referring to human voices at all but rather to ëvoicesí in instrumental choirs and/or organ, the former may have consisted of viols, lutes, other string instruments (violins, violas, violoncellos). > Reply: Sorry for the difficulties in keeping the details straight. The booklet notes to Herreweghe's <Cantates pour alto> are in fact written in German by Thomas Seedorf, with English and French translation provided. I cited from the English translation, but went to the German to get the full title of Schneider, because of the typographic lapse in the English text. So the Schneider title I cited is indeed the German, as provided by Seedorf. It is a bit of a chore for me to transcribe German text, but I can do so for Schneider as cited by Seedorf, if that would be helpful. Let me know. I will leave it to you and the other German speakers and musicians to discuss the fine points, but your suggestion is intriguing. I believe the original post which initiated my the question was near March 2006. I did a BCW search for <alto "holy ghost">, which returned 22 hits. For some reason I can access only the first three, none of which are the one. In any case, I don't believe the earlier 2006 post was supported other than by the phrase <as is well known>, or similar. Not a major point, I suppose, but now is as good a time as any to return to the question: why is it well known? And to add the question, is it well know correctly? Thomas Seedorf appears to be a reputable scholar of vocal performance, including Bach. Perhaps the Schneider connection is his discovery? An amusing sidelight on translations, literal versus accurate. The best looking page on Seedorf is in German, so I gave the Google <translate this page> function a try. Thomas sea-town has many publications on the compositof brook. Can't be faulted for lack of precision. |
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Chris Rowson wrote (October 12, 2006):Ed Myskowski wrote: < An amusing sidelight on translations, literal versus accurate. The best looking page on Seedorf is in German, so I gave the Google <translate this page> function a try. Thomas sea-town has many publications on the compositions of brook. Can't be faulted for lack of precision. > Comment: I´m afraid I have to dissent here: the German word "See" is generally more accurately translated as "lake". The German word corresponding to the English "sea" is generally "Meer". So "Thomas Laketown" please! Or since "Dorf" is really more of a village, maybe "Thomas Lakeville". Otherwise, I have to say that I will be travelling for the next couple of weeks and unable to contribute here. I have been trying to look at BWV 180, particularly the flute parts, but haven´t been able to finish catching up with the existing materials. Oh well, maybe next time. |
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Raymond Joly wrote (October 12, 2006):[To Chris Rowson] Die See (fem.) is the sea, der See (masc.) is a lake. Everyday German today. Was it always so? Raymond Joly, in a hotel in Brussels. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (October 12, 2006):Bach and altos [was Old discussion] I recently wrote (Oct. 10, 2006): >>Back in the Spring, I responded to a note which said, approximately: <It is well know that Soprano = soul, Alto = Holy Ghost (Spirit, or Geist), Tenor = narrator, or similar, and Bass (or Baritone) = Jesus, the Savior.> I asked for the original reference, without response, at the time. Now I am already unable to recover either the post or my question, via search, so much for the marvels of technology (or my lack of skills).<< With a bit (and only a bit, I emphasize) of additional effort, I have recovered the following, filed in the lengthy <Bach and Altos> thread. Jeremy Vosburgh wrote (March 1, 2006): Counter-tenors >>I simply like that fact that the four parts SATB when all sung by males give entirely contrasting sounds from four versions of the same sex person. For example, you have the extremes of expression by having a man sing the very low voice of Jesus/God. You also have a male singing the high part of the Christian soul. The tenor is the most normal sounding voice and represents a commentary or narration. That leaves the alto which is by far the most interesting. The alto voice represents the holy spirit and allusions/conversations about it. To have a woman sing it would sound too much like "mother."<< I am repeating all this without my characteristic attempts at brevity for two reasons: (1) Apologies for attributing my presumption <it is well known> to Jeremy. He simply states it as if it were fact. (2) The quest for the source interested me at the time, and since it was unanswered, continues to be of interest as a pending question (one of many thousands). The reference to Schneider, cited by Thomas Seedorf in the booklet notes to Herreweghe's <Cantates pour alto> looks like a reasonable attempt at a source, and Tom Braatz' question as to whether the reference is to vocal or instrumental voices (or ranges) seems valid, as well. Worth pursuing, to my mind. I have no expertise to add, but can always apply a bit of common sense and the occasional reference. Chris Rowson wrote (Oct. 11, 2006) on this thread: The German word corresponding to the English "sea" is generally "Meer". So >>"Thomas Laketown" please! Or since "Dorf" is really more of a village, maybe "Thomas Lakeville".<< The point I laughed at most about the translation program was how all German nouns, even proper names (Bach or Seedorf) were automatically translated and converted to lower case (brook or sea-town). Perhaps even more precisely, lakeville. Or perhaps not. Final word for the moment to <Raymond Joly, in a hotel in Brussels.> (Oct. 12, 2006) >>Die See (fem.) is the sea, der See (masc.) is a lake. Everyday German today. Was it always so?<< |
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Tom Hens wrote (October 19, 2006):Ed Myskowski wrote: < An amusing sidelight on translations, literal versus accurate. > There is no such versus thing. There are good translations and bad translations, not "literal" ones vs. "accurate" ones. Just because on this list one prolific contributor likes to label his short essays expounding his idiosyncratic personal views, based on free association from small snippets of eighteenth-century German texts, "translations" doesn't mean the rest of us have to go along with this abuse of the term. Or with the absurd notion that the only alternative to his creative prose, which can easily be twice the length of the texts he's supposedly "translating", are computer-generated non-translations, which he labels "literal translations". < The best looking page on Seedorf is in German, so I gave the Google <translate this page> function a try. Thomas sea-town has many publications on the compositions of brook. Can't be faulted for lack of precision. > Yes, it can, because it isn't precise at all, and it isn't even a translation. The Google "translate" function, if I'm not mistaken, is a reincarnation of what used to be called Babelfish, which in turn is an on-line reincarnation of the ancient Systran program. It never worked, but somehow, they've managed to keep on selling this non-functional piece of crap for decades. (If I'm mistaken, and the Google "translate" function is based on an entirely different piece of crap, I apologise to the owners of the Systran piece of crap.) Years ago, just for fun I ran the English text of a web page I'd written through Babelfish into several languages, and then from the purported destination language back into English. Just going from English to German managed to turn the simple phrase "fan effort", as in "this page is purely a fan effort" into the magnificent German neologism "Ventilatorbemühung". It still makes me chuckle. Going from English to French and back again managed to turn the simple phrase "Chad's address" into "the house of the confetti". I thought this was both mysterious and hilarious. It wasn't until years later, when the Florida election farce happened, that I realized just how, somewhere from the depths of Systran, the word "confetti" might have emerged as a substitution for the name "Chad" -- that particular obscure American meaning of "chad" to mean a small piece of paper was unknown to me until then. The reasons why computer-generated "translation" cannot possibly, ever, work, unless you create a computer program that has the same understanding of the world a human being does, were already accurately formulated by Yehoshuah Bar-Hillel in 1964. Bar-Hillel wasn't just some philosopher throwing up abstract objections, but probably the world's first scientist working full-time on computer translation. But somehow, people keep on making money off this crazy idea. (I'm sorry, I just had to get that off my chest.) |
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Thomas Braatz wrote (October 19, 2006):Tom Hens wrote: >>Just because on this list one prolific contributor likes to label his short essays expounding his idiosyncratic personal views, based on free association from small snippets of eighteenth-century German texts, "translations" doesn't mean the rest of us have to go along with this abuse of the term. Or with the absurd notion that the only alternative to his creative prose,which can easily be twice the length of the texts he's supposedly "translating", are computer-generated non-translations, which he labels "literal translations".<< I, and I am certain that there are many others, await with eager interest some of your succinct "translations" of 18th-century German texts, many of which I have shared in the original German for direct comparison. Most of these quotations from original sources are available on the BCW. Choose any one of them that has not yet been translated into English (or where you believe that I had translated incorrectly) and give us a demonstration of what you mean by a good translation which helps a reader truly understand what German 18th-century writers were likely trying to say. |
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Adult male altos in Germany at the time of Bach? |
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Teri Noel Towe wrote (July 24, 200):In an editorial in the current issue of Classic Record Collector, Tully Potter, its distinguished and knowledgeable editor writes: When I was already planning this piece, a CRC writer said to me, unprompted: ‘I don’t know of any evidence for adult male altos in Germany at the time of Bach.’ Quite so. Yet it is getting difficult to find a Bach choral recording without a countertenor soloist hooting away. Last year a reductio ad absurdum was reached when an ‘authentic’ recording of the Christmas Oratorio used a male alto. http://www.classicrecordcollector.com/Editorial.asp I may thrive on "anachronistic" performances, but somehow or other, I find this allegation a bit too strong, but I also am the first to admit that I am not a specialist in this musicological area. For that reason, I am sending this quote out to some appropriate discussion lists and musicologically knowledgeable individuals in the hope that we can either confirm or refute Tully's contention. |
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John Wall wrote (July 24, 2007):[To Teri Noel Towe] Adult male falsettists certainly were well-established performers of church music in Germany as late as the early 18th Century. See the following excerpts from Kerala Snyder's book, Buxtehude, Organist in Lübeck: All of Buxtehude's vocal solists, including the singers of his soprano parts, appear to have been men. The more usual singers of soprano parts -- boys, castrati, and women -- were not readily available to him. The choirboys were reponsible to the cantor. There were no Italian castrati residing in Lübeck, although a visiting castrato did sing in St. Mary's on Easter Sunday of 1672, duly note in the account book. Female sopranos were not permitted to perform in church. Male falsettists cultivated the soprano range to a much greater extent in the seventeenth century than they do today, however. . . . The practice extended well into the eighteenth century; Walther's definition of 'Cammer-Ton' includes the information that performance at lower pitch was chiefly for the sake of adult Sopranisten, who do not command such a high range, and Johann Petri tells of a Sopranist -- not a castrato -- whose falsetto range extended to f'''. The principal singer of Buxtehude's soprano parts in Lübeck must have been Hans Iwe, the versatile municipal musician who assisted Buxtehude at the large organ from 1674 until his death in 1692. Iwe is most often listed in the pay records as a Sopranist, although he appears once as a Violist. In 1677, a second sopranist, Johann Albrecht Schop, was paid for the year. The participation of boy sopranos from St. Catherine's school in Lübeck cannot be ruled out, of course, and in Stockholm the soprano parts were regularly sung by boys. The range of Buxtehude's soprano parts is not particularly high; approximately half of both the first and second soprano parts extend only to g''. The highest pitch encountered is one b'' in BuxWV 80. Since this work would have been performed in Chorton at St. Mary's, this high note corresponds to c-sharp'' at modern pitch of a' = 440, still well below the top notes of Petri's sopranists. [pages 370-371] --- Further on Hans Iwe, he wrote in his initial application that "... I do not hesitate to play violin, viola da gamba, violone, all manner of woodwinds, cornetto, dulcian, trombone, bass trombone and flutes in a suitable manner; also if necessary I can serve with keyboard and vocal music." (p. 51). He was also a composer. (p. 52). Snyder, Buxtehude, Organist in Lübeck. University of Rochester Press. 2d edition 2007. On a related issue, I wonder if anyone could furnish information about the introduction of women singers in German churches. In his liner notes for the Hungaroton recording of Telemann's Brockes Passion, Telemann authority Carsten Lange speculates that the cast at the 1716 inaugural performances in Frankfurt may have included two famous sopranos, Margaretha Susanna Kayser and Anna Maria Schober, as well as the alto castrato Antonio Campioli. |
Last update: ýNovember 28, 2008 ý13:49:41
