John Eliot Gardiner & Monteverdi Choir & English Baroque Soloists
Bach Cantatas & Other Vocal Works
General Discussions - Part 1

Gardiner

Marcus Stollsteimer wrote (March 2, 1998):
Hi. I am a new member in the list, and I got the impression that you people don't like Gardiner too much.

When I got to know Gardiner I was fascinated and liked him much better than other recordings I had listened to (I don't know which, I can only remember the b minor mass with Karajan). I never heard recordings from people like Richter, Harnoncourt or Herreweghe. One thing what I like about Gardiner's recordings is the clearness and purity of choir and orchestra and his swing and rythmus (I fear I can't express it correctly). The soloists are outstanding, too, e.g. Andreas Schmidt as Jesus in the St. Matthew Passion (BWV 244) is unbelievable !

What do you think about his recordings compared to e.g Richter, Harnoncourt or Herreweghe ? What are the differences ?

Someone used the word "frivolous" for Koopman's and Gardiner's recordings, what exactly did he mean with it ?

What do you you think about the motets with Frieder Bernius? I think they are excellent. I heard Bernius and the Kammerchor Stuttgart perform the b minor mass, and a friend of mine said about the "Agnus Dei" it was "more beautiful than Gardiner's" (with Michael Chance). Unfortunately I don't remember the soloist.

Utopia wrote (March 3, 1998):
Gardiner has received some excellent reviews for his Bach recordings, and I do not find these reviews to be overrated. I am particularly fond of the St. John Passion (BWV 245), which I believe truly brings out the operatic quality of the work. The attention to detail and sensitivity to the score are remarkable. The chorus, "Jesum von Nazareth" (2b on the disc) is overwhelming, capturing the accusitorial intent of the mob while conveying the devotional sense of the score. My favourite aria is "Ich folge dir gleichfalls mit freudigen Schritten" (9), with its child-like melody. Gardiner's Bach Motets (BWV 225-231) are exceptional and the Cantatas are equally pleasing. As for the B minor Mass (BWV 232), the Christmas Oratorio (BWV 248), and St. Matthew Passion (BWV 244), sometimes I sense too much perfection. Do others of you have this feeling?

Nariya Katsunori wrote (March 3, 1998):
Maarten wrote:
< His choice of performing artists, particularly the soloists is mostly superb. Although we should realize that on all these records of JEG, Pinnock, Goodman, Hogwood, Koopman many perfoming artists are the same people. The 'light and dancing' style of Gardiner is something to like or dislike (personally I like it mostly, I don't think we should take Sebastians music too seriously, that is make it too heavy). >
I like John Eliot Gardiner's Bach very much. The best Bach performed by Gardiner is, at least for me, Christmas Oratorio. It is never a serious performance. But I feel like dancing with listening to Gardiner's Christmas Oratorio. This is what I expect to Christmas Oratorio. (Richter's Christmas Oratorio is too serious to enjoy Christmas days).

Gardiner's Magnificat is not very good, but his other Cantatas such as Wachet auf (BWV 140) are very nice.

However, I could not enjoy Gardiner's Funeral music of Schütz. I would like to listen to more serious sounds. ( I do not like his Mass in B minor (BWV 232) very much, either. I preferred Andrew Parrot, Leonhardt, and Frans Bruggen's. But I like Gardiner's St. Matthew).

My recommendation of John Eliot Gardiner
(* is highly recommended, or the best performace of the work)

Monteverdi , *Vespro della Beata Vergine.
Bach *Christmas Oratorio, St Matthew, Cantatas
Händel, Messiah
Haydn, *Four Seasons
Mozart , Figaro, * the Great Mass, Symphonies
Beethoven, Missa Solemunis, Symphonies. especially No.3 (Eroica)
(piano concertos of B & M are also recommended)
Schubert, Choral Works
Verdi, Requiem

Ambroz Bajec-Lapajne wrote (March 4, 1998):
I must say a have also noticed a huge Gardiner dislike in the group. His tempi usually are a bit faster but it has never bothered me as much as if the tempi are on the edge of stopping. Especially in baroque music. If the relationships among the tempi is right than the speed doesn't bother me. What bothers is that there is no sensible connection between the tempi of the movements.

What I like is his sense of drama in this music. One can see the whole theatre going on in his interpretations of cantatas and passions (Magnificat and Mass, too) . Bach's music is a very carefully composed music and this is evident in Gardiner's interpretations.

His orchestras and choir are just superb. And I've never heard being the soloists so carefully chosen for a certain piece. Other conductors also had the possibility to work with the same excellent soloists but the result is not at all as good as Gardiner's. (I've just heard the Cantata BWV 4 with Koopman and was so disappointed with the soloists (tenor and soprano) that I couldn't continue listening.)

Try for a change from Bach to listen to Gardiner's other interpretations of Mozart operas, Mozart, Verdi, Brahms, Faure Requiems, Beethoven Symphonies or Missa solemnis, Berlioz.... Perhaps you'll get a bit wider perspective all together.

On the other hand, it's good to have more interpreters to choose from and to disagree on the choice. If only Bach had been so fortunate with his singers and players in Leipzig.

By the way - Magnificat is on the CD of Gardiner followed by virtuoso soprano solo Cantata "Jauchzet Gott" BWV 51 sung by magnificent Emma Kirkby.

Speeding in Bach

Ryan Michero wrote (April 3, 1998):
In reference to this "speeding" issue, Pieter-Jelle, it seems to me that you are equating the speed of recording projects with speed of tempi in period-instrument performances. Personally, I don't see a connection.

And as for Gardiner's year-long cantata project--well, it sounds like a Bachian enterprise if there ever was one. As Jan mentioned, Bach composed his masterful church cantatas very quickly. How quickly?

BEWARE! HISTORICAL DIGRESSION:

The master, his family, and his four wagonloads of personal belongings first arrived in Leipzig in May of 1723. Bach had signed a contract with his employers to provide sacred choral music for every event of the church year. This amounted to about sixty pieces per year--one cantata for each weekly Sunday service, plus various other pieces. Of course, Bach was expected not to use the vast collection of cantatas composed by past cantors but to compose them all anew. By 1725, Bach had written two complete annual cycles of cantatas; by 1727, a third; by 1729, a fourth. But this was apparently not enough work for him. In addition, he wrote the Magnificat in 1723, the St. John Passion in 1724, and the St. Matthew Passion in 1727. Bach "slacked off" in his later Leipzig years, completing the Christmas Oratorio and the B-Minor Mass in the early 1730's and the fifth cantata cycle in the 1740's.

But we must remember that Bach did not only compose this music, he also supervised the writing out of the parts, rehearsed the music during the week, and led a group of unruly schoolboys in their performance in two churches every Sunday--from the organ, no less! All of this in addition to teaching boys Latin, theology, and music, sometimes giving private singing lessons to them for no extra monetary compensation. Incidentally, he also fathered quite a few childeren during this time.

With this in mind, one wonders what is going to take Gardiner so long.

P.S.--My first Herreweghe recording (w/ the Ascension Oratorio) is coming in the mail. I can't wait!

Complete cantatas 2000

Ehud Shiloni wrote (June 30, 1998):
Andrea Klassen wrote:
< Now I'm worried about the maestro himself... >
To borrow a metaphor from Baseball, I would say that if thepitcher is not allowed sufficient rest in the rotation, it usually means that you should expect a lot of Home Runs...

My own "prediction":
1.The tour itself will be hugely successfull and draw a lot of public attention.
2.Not all the performances will henceforth be remembered as the ultimate benchmarks.
3.However some of them will turn out to be "Home Runs"....one or two even 500 footers...

Happy anticipation to all

Does anyone dislike Gardiner

Brent Peterson (Picander) wrote (January 8, 1999):
I'm curious if this should be called the Bach list or the Gardiner list :)

I realize I am from another planet, but is there anyone else out there who simply does NOT like Gardiner (or Pinnock for that matter?)

Don't get me wrong, I am not against HIP. I have loved almost everything I have heard from Leonhardt and Harnoncourt, for example.

But when I listened to what Gardiner did to the Bach Magnificat a few years ago, I knew I could never give this man the time of day. Everything was so ridiculously fast, faster than what the singers could keep up with, faster than the soloists could keep up with. It appears the current crop of HIP specialists have this opinion: I can conduct it this fast, therefore it is cool; you can either keep up or be left behind. And if they do keep up, and it sounds ugly, fine, the important thing is to show off speed.

The new recordings do certainly have a technical brilliance and sparkle in aural fidelity that older technologies could not match. May I dare ask it, is this what is mesmerizing you?

I'm sure I will be flamed. Oh well :)

Gardiner

Ambroz Bajec-Lapajne wrote (May 30, 1999):
After a long 'tacet' from me here's my little thought:

It seems too me that sir John is one extremely busy musician. Apart from having awfully a lot of concerts in Europe (I'm not sure about the States) with HIS ensembles, he has concerts with Wienner Philharmoniker and is at the moment conducting 'Die lustige Witwe' in the Vienna Opera /with Barbara Boney and Bo Skovhus/. BTW a superb performance. He also records a great deal with Vienna Phils. His Mendelssohn has just been released (his Schubert not long ago).

Mind you: all these are the best ensembles you can get in the world. And I know one does not need a half a year to do (and record) all the Beethoven Symphonies.

I can't wait the Bach cantatas project next year, that bounds to be sublime.

However, I've heard that he treats the musicians he works with really badly. I guess he want's to get it his way, not concerning the costs.

All the conductors tend to perform as different music and periods as possible, what goes double for sir John. And I've heard (as well as I owe) a lot of his recordings from Bach, Purcell, Händel to Brahms, Faure, Verdi, Haydn, Beethoven, Mozart, Grainger, Lehar to name but a few, and I agree with almost everything he does. I'm not claiming that other conductors don't (or can't) do a better than he. It's just that I can identify with his interpretations immensely. He persuades me with his narration and musicality.

I remember not liking Beethoven Symphonies too much (listening to von Karajan & Co.), but when I bought all the nine of Gardiner I couldn't stop listening to all of them in one go. And I said to myself: this is the Beethoven that all other conductors didn't manage to reach. It's just the matter of taste. But on the other hand we all talk about only five or so performers per instrument (or conductors) meaning that we like almost the same things. The differences between these are not that big we try them to make. Considering someone like Gardiner, Herreweghe, Koopman or Suzuki it is only in the finest matters that they vary. But the idea is the same: to give us what the great Master left us in a unique way as possible, giving all the performances their significant mark.

Robert Sherman wrote (May 30, 1999):
The flute solos had no radiance. The climactic horn shout was more like an unfocused mumble. The coda was totally lacking in punch and intensity I remember thinking "surely this must be Gardiner, trying to do the right thing but thwarted by the limited dynamic range of his period instruments. Overall, this is a disappointing performance to be avoided." When the performance finished and the announcement was made, there it was: Gardner.

Benjamin Mullins wrote (May 30, 1999):
I am not referring, specifically, to the above post, but it seems that very few GOOD things are ever said about Gardiner on this list. A distinction must be made between what he is doing right or wrong, and what is due to the natural limitations of the instruments he works with.

In the Beethoven piece mentioned above, if the author is referring to the 'false' horn entry, it should be said that those measures are marked pianissimo, and should not be a shout. As far as the flutes go, wooden flutes don't have the same kind of radiance their modern, metallic, counterparts do.(Strange isn't it, a METAL woodwind ?!?)

When compared to modern, 18^th and 19^th century instruments are limited. These limitations are not, however, to their detriment, but are simply the 'nature of the beast'.

Steven Langley Guy wrote (May 30, 1999):
I can only say that I agree few good things are said of Gardiner even when
his performances stand out above the rest.

I am listening to Gardiner's B Minor Mass as I write this and all I can say is that over nearly fifteen years it constantly impresses me. I bought the 1989 Herreweghe performance on Virgin (VCD 7 90757) and found it 'weak' but 'good' - does that sound nuts? Herreweghe's trumpets are nearly inaudible! But you can hear everything else! The soloists are just as good as Gardiner (although I like countertenor Charles Brett he aint no Michael Chance). I recently bought the Thomas Hengelbrock/Freiburger Barockorchester/Balthasar-Neumann-Chor version on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi (05472 77380 2) and I have found it very satisfying. Hengelbrock's orchestra is in good form - the trumpets are nice and sharp, the woodwind colourful and the strings work hard. The choir is a nice size - not too big and not one of those (to me) nutty 'one-to-a-part' jobs. The soloists are drawn from the choir and are all very satisfactory - particularly the countertenors (who, for me, can make or break a recording) who make some nice noises.

I still always return to Gardiner's B-minor Mass (I still don't go for having the soloists do portions of the choruses) but I have never really felt as strong about his Matthew Passion (also on Archiv) which just seems too 'middle-of-the-road' for me. My first encounter with this work was the Harnoncourt version from 1971 when I was thirteen years old - I was so captivated with this music I nearly failed that school year. This wasn't music - this was a new universe to me!

Only the Gustav Leonhardt/Le Petite Bande version of the St Matthew on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi from 1990 seems to continue Harnoncourt expansive vision of this work with all male choir and vocalists. Getting back to Gardiner, I hope he stays with the Romantic period (and maybe the rare Mozart operas?). I am still awaiting a really good set of Brahms symphonies on period instruments (Yes I do have Norrington's - which I do like very much), Beethoven's Triple Concerto & Violin Concerto, Fidelio (Gardiner's done 'Leonore'), Weber's operas and early operas of Verdi and Wagner and Berlioz' Te Deum and Requiem. Maybe Gardiner should leave Bach and the Baroque in general to other specialised performers?

I couldn't I would be enthusiastic about a complete Bach cantata series from Gardiner - maybe ten years ago, but not now. Perhaps he should encourage someone else to conduct the Monteverdi Choir/English Baroque Soloists from time to time - the way the Orchestra Of The Age Of Enlightenment does? A bit of 'lateral thinking' needed? The late 90's Gardiner seems to be well past Monteverdi, Bach and even Mozart.

Incidently, Gardiner's recording of the 'Musikalische Exequien' of Schütz (ARCHIV 423 405-2) with the Monteverdi Choir/Eng.Bar. Soloists/His Majesties Sagbutts and Cornetts in 1988 is a in a class of own. Unfortunately Gardiner has never returned to this repertoire. A Gardiner 'Psalmen Davids' could be very exciting indeed. Anyway I would suggest that all lovers of J.S. Bach's music should familiarise themselves with Schuetz' Psalms of David - this is music that looks forward and backward. Bach's Motets preserve something of this tradition.

Gardiner, tempi, and God

Ben Mullins wrote (October 15, 1999):
I too enjoy Gardiner's recordings. I think what I like most is how he does not let sentiment get in the way of the music. His critics fall into the trap many times of comparing him to more traditional (and sometimes much older) interpretations. With Gardiner one cannot always do this and get an accurate comparison. When listening to one of his recordings, you must ask yourself: 1) Is he following the composer's direction as closely as possible? (Is he taking too many liberties?) 2) Does he, not comparing him to anyone else and even with his tempi, still give a satisfactory emotional performance? I think, most of the time, he does.

Regarding JEG's tempi, since this is such a unique thing to each conductor, debating how " good" it is, is rather pointless. However, I recently got Philipp Spitta's biography of Bach, and under the title "Methods of Conducting" I read something rather interesting. And I quote:

If we take the beautiful and lively description of Bach's conducting given by Gesner, who, by the way, represents him as sitting at the harpsichord we shall get a clear and correct idea of him. Consistent with this picture is what Emanuel Bach and Agricola say when they are praising Sebastian Bach's facility in conducting: " In conducting he was very accurate, and in time, which he generally took are a very lively pace, he was always sure." ---Unquote---

You can take from this what you like. I just thought I'd share. Now on to the religious part...

Myself, I am probably more religious than most. While I think it is important to have some knowledge of Bach's subject matter, being of a religious nature is not a prerequisite to being moved by it. I can certainly relate to those who, though not being religious, can still enjoy the music for itself. Not being Protestant or Catholic the B minor Mass, Passions, and many cantatas mean virtually nothing to me religiously. However musically, to me they are some of the greatest pieces ever written. So I suppose, for some of Bach's music, I am in the same boat as those less religiously inclined on the List. Anyway, whatever your persuasion, Bach certainly wrote some noble 'noise'.

Gardiner's Cantata Pilgrimage

Ben Mullins wrote (October 16, 1999):
I was looking on JEG's Website http://www.monteverdi.co.uk/ concerning his upcoming cantata project. In the description of the project this statement is made:

"Until 1 January 2001 the musicians will travel to a different town every week; they will live and work within the communities they will visit, and perform for and with the local congregations, who will be joining the Monteverdi Choir in the singing of the chorales."

I hope this applies the recordings. This is the type of 'authenticity' I like. To me this would certainly give the music (or the chorales at least) a very human quality.

Simon Crouch wrote (October 16, 1999):
I haven't noticed this posted by anyone else yet, so let me be the first to break the news that JEG's cantata pilgrimage is apparently not going to be recorded in full. Assuming that one can trust last week's Sunday Times, that is! I quote Hugh Canning:

"...Already there has been one high-profile casualty of this cornucopia of Bachian activity on record. Last year, with characteristic folie de grandeur, the British conductor and Bach champion Sir John Eliot Gardiner announced his intention to perform and record all 199 of Bach's church cantatas within the span of a year. The project comprises about 60 concerts and the live recordings would have to be on the market within weeks of the performances.

Amazingly, Gardiner's 60 or more concerts are going ahead, but DG/Archiv has now committed itself to recording and releasing only 12 discs - only "the most popular cantatas" - and instead of "live" recordings to be released after the event, they have been pre-recorded in studio conditions to capitalize on the concerts. "

Sorry to dampen the spirits.

Armagan Ekici wrote (October 17, 1999):
JEG must be quite mad at this last minute turn of the events. Anyway, I feel that this is a more reasonable course of action. If you think of logistical nightmare of recording one CD every week (with "4AD" technology!) in another church. Moreover, while listening to the Monteverdi Choir joined with the local choir would be a fun experience, would that be "the" cantata version that you would like to buy on CD, given the strongest argument for JEG is the quality of choral singing?

Ryan Michero wrote (October 17, 1999):
This news is interesting as well as a bit depressing. It does seem to make a bit more sense from a business perspective than what was originally planned. I'm not surprised DG has proved considerably less ambitious than Gardiner himself, what with the obvious belt-tightening among the major record labels. Also, since Gardiner has already released 3 cantata discs on Archiv, why would they want to put out more of the same performers doing the same pieces? (Oh, wait... We are talking about DG, a record company that recorded FOUR Beethoven cycles with Karajan...)

Well, at least my wallet won't suffer so much next year.

Luis Villalba wrote (October 17, 1999):
Regrettably DGG shied away from the project and will only record some 12 CD's.

Steven L. Guy wrote (October 17, 1999):
(Karajan) Oh so true! Nice to know that they still regard Bach and other 'Early Music' as sort of marginal, non-mainstream Classical music.

As much as I have previously said that I wouldn't buy a Gardiner Cantata series I do think it would have been a nice alternative to the other contenders. Gardiner has made some inspired Bach recordings and I think ARCHIV has missed the boat in not recording Gardiner's cantatas in toto - he has done on ARCHIV all the (major) Mozart operas, all the Mozart Fortepiano Concerti, all the Beethoven Symphonies and Fortepiano Concerti. Why not a complete Bach Cantata series?

Perhaps if Herb was still around he could convince the guys at DG to change their minds?

Aryeh Oron wrote (October 17, 1999):
Do you know if Herb (Von Karajan) has recorded any Bach Cantata? I don't think that if such recording was available, I would have enjoyed it, but it was interesting to listen to anyway. In any case I am quite sure that if Herb decided to do a complete Cantata cycle, than the guys at DG would have approved it. BTW, does Archiv Produktion have a Web Site with their full catalog?

Wim Huisjes wrote (October 17, 1999):
(Since Gardiner has already released 3 cantata discs on Archiv, why would they want to put out more of the same performers doing the same pieces?) Indeed a mind boggling number of discs...

(Karajan) Has anybody kept track of how many times Herbie's Beethoven symphonies were re-released?

Wim Huisjes wrote (October 17, 1999):
(Karajan) Yeah, but if Herb would have had any say in it, we would have ended up with a Karajan cantata cycle. Disaster all around!

Luis Villalba wrote (October 17, 1999):
(Karajan) No, I have not kept track of the Karajan re-releases. It would be depressing; more so knowing that DGG still have valuable Bach stuff from the vinyl era.

Matthew Westphal wrote (October 17, 1999):
Actually, this news doesn't depress me at all. It certainly makes sense from a business perspective (and after all, we don't want the classical recording industry to LOSE money, now do we?); it probably makes more sense artistically as well. Think about it: a recording in a different place every week, with performers (chorus and orchestra, I mean) who are very skillful, but who are able to make decent livings because they are extraordinarily good sight-readers. How much rehearsal -- let alone THOUGHTFUL rehea-- do we think each cantata is likely to get?

I didn't have high hopes for the artistry of a complete Gardiner series -- perhaps DG's decision will lead to a better product. I just hope they've included some of the hard-to-find gems along with the "most popular" cantatas.

Matthew Westphal wrote (October 17, 1999):
They do not! If they did, for example, they would hardly have released a (speculative) reconstruction of an entire service at the Thomaskirche (McCreesh's magnificent Bach Epiphany Mass), let alone had a star like Anne-Sofie von Otter record a pack of early Baroque laments no one had ever heard of ("Lamenti" - possibly the best solo record she's ever made).

I think it will be a long time before any classical label is so in thrall to a conductor as DG was to von Karajan back in the day. A big part of the difficulty facing the major labels now is a glut of product on the market - I think they've learned that lesson.

Because all the series you listed above COMBINED add up to around half (if not less) of the number of discs a complete Bach cantata set would require. It seems unlikely that enough buyers would make such a big investment to cover DG's production and distribution costs. Especially since many of the likely customers are already getting the Koopman and/or Suzuki sets.

Ben Mullins wrote (October 17, 1999):
Perhaps latter Gardiner could do more cantatas. Considering how relatively quick JEG can turn out a really good recording (I'm thinking of his CD of Haydn's "Creation"), maybe he could do one a year or so. It's better than nothing. As far as I am concerned, the more cantatas the better!

Ryan Michero wrote (October 17, 1999):
Well, here in the US, McCreesh's Epiphany Mass disc is only available on special import. For DGG, American consumers just aren't interested in such music. The only reason I know of such a disc is this list. And the American release of "Lamenti" lagged waaaaay behind the European release. I think the only reason it was released here at all was because of the rave reviews it was getting in nearly all of the major classical music publications.

On the other hand, Tower records has a large display case full of brand-new Karajan opera re-releases on EMI...

True, the situation could be worse. It could be much better too, though.

Luis Villalba wrote (October 18, 1999):
I suffer with you and many others. DGG has always had a strange attitude towards Bach. Years ago you had to enter through the orthodox Archiv ways to record Bach or you were relegated to second rate positions in DGG. Moreover, I can well remember that at least in harpsichord recordings Archiv was one of the latest brands in shifting to instruments built on sound principles. As late as the early sixties, when other brands were pioneering decent sounding harpsichords Archiv stuck to the wrongly called "Bach model" made by Neupert. All of it, however, was well covered under a patina of musicological seriousness.

DGG even recorded the Brandenburgs with Karajan playing continuo (if such a thing was possible) on an electronically amplified Neupert which sounded like a huge bad electrical guitar.

Patience!

Ryan Michero wrote (October 18, 1999):
HA! I've got to hear this. What a joke!

Harry Steinman wrote (October 18, 1999):
Think about it: a recording in a different place every week, with performers (chorus and orchestra, I mean) who are very skillful, but who are able to make decent livings because they are extraordinarily good sight-readers. How much rehearsal -- let alone THOUGHTFUL rehearsal -- do we think each cantata is likely to get?

Me, I figure that about the only way we'll all know if the decision not to record the Pilgrimage is to attend some of the performances and decide if they are 'keepers' or not. I'm gonna try to get to the continent to hear some music: Anybody else planning to attend any of the Pilgrimage performances? It would be a joy to meet up with some of you at the show!

Ben Ross wrote (October 19, 1999):
Gosh Harry, I'd love to meet you also, but I'm pretty much stuck here in god's country (Oregon). Sure would love to go with you though. I've always enjoyed your contributions as the most literate and witty of the bunch. Meanwhile, I'm just glad the room is benefiting from your offerings (not musical). I hope you meet up with some other Bachomaniacs and are able to share the pilgrimage together.

In the name of our Bach

John Downes wrote (October 20, 1999):
Yes, I definitely want to go to as many as I am able to. Southwell next February is practically on my doorstep. And Latvia in November 2000 looks possible, but how the blazes do you get tickets?

Continue on Part 2