Cantata BWV 86 - Discussions

Cantata BWV 86
Wahrlich, wahrlich, ich sage euch
Discussions

Previous Messages

Charles Francis wrote (March 18, 2000):
Bach's Jesus always has a deep voice, and in cantatas BWV 86 and BWV 87 Jesus actually gets to open the show. This results, not surprisingly, in two superb bass arias, filled with emotion and spiritual power. Both are on Vol. 34 of the Rilling's set (2), and Walter Heldwein gives a powerful performance. The arias are:

BWV 86 "Wahrlich, wahrlich, ich sage euch, so ihr den Vater etwas bitten werdet in meinem Namen, so wird er's euch geben"

BWV 87 "Bisher habt ihr nichts gebeten in meinem Namen".

Any other favourites out there?

Charles Francis wrote (May 27, 2000):
Cantatas for Rogate Sunday (Fifth Sunday after Easter), May 28, 2000
Wahrlich, Wahrlich, ich sage euch, BWV 86 (May 14, 1724)
Bisher habt ihr nichts gebeten in meinen Namen, BWV 87 (May 6, 1725)

For me, these have some of Bach's most moving bass arias. "Wahrlich, Wahrlich, ich sage euch" and "Bisher habt ihr nichts gebeten in meinen Namen" are the only examples I've found in the cantatas where Jesus speaks in 1st person. "Ich will leiden, ich will schweigen" and the closing choral "Muss ich sein betrübet?" are also noteworthy.

Discussions in the Week of May 28, 2000

Aryeh Oron wrote (June 1, 2000):
Background

This is the week of BWV 86, according to Jane Newble suggestion. This cantata is sister of BWV 166, which was discussed in this group last week. The structure of both cantatas is almost the same. BWV 166 - Aria (Bass), Aria (Tenor), Chorale (Soprano), Recitative (Bass), Aria (Alto), Chorale. BWV 86 - Aria (Bass), Aria (Alto), Chorale (Soprano), Recitative (Bass), Aria (Tenor), Chorale. The second Aria (No.2) in both cantatas is the longest movement and the playing time of the complete two cantatas is almost the same, though BWV 86 is a little bit shorter. All the reasons that make BWV 166 so attractive exist also here.

As a reference I will use Alec Robertson book - 'The Church Cantatas of J.S. Bach' in the preface before comparisons of the recordings of each movement. I am too busy this week. Therefore I shall compare only the first two movements, although all the others are no less beautiful. This is one of those cantatas, which can stand many repeated hearings. Last week I have listened to all four recordings below, at least five times to each one of them, and I am still hungry to hear more. But after I finish writing to you, I have to start listening to next week cantata (BWV 44). I am comforted by knowing that I will have something to return to when we finish reviewing the complete cycle of the cantatas, some years ahead.

The Recordings

I heard 4 recordings of BWV 86. All of them are from complete cycles of Harnoncourt/Leonhardt, Rilling, Koopman and Jan Leusink. See: Cantata BWV 86 – Recordings (1) to (4).

(1) Nikolaus Harnoncourt (1979)
(2) Helmuth Rilling (1980)
(3) Ton Koopman (1998)
(4) Pieter Jan Leusink (1999)

Mvt. 1. Aria for Bass
'Wahrlich, wahrlich, ich sage euch' (Truly, truly, I say unto you)
Bass, 2 Violin, Viola, Continuo
"As said in discussing the first number of cantata BWV 108, Bach never gives the title 'Aria' to a setting of Christ's words sung in the first person. This fine libretto explores the implications of Christ's promise to his disciples. Bach begins the Bass Aria as a triple fugue. It is the same key as the E Major Fugue in the second book of 'The 48' (No.9) and is filled with the same spiritual and melodic beauty. The three motifs, that are presented simultaneously in the first six bars, are thereafter successively allotted to Christ's words. The interweaving of these themes between voice, strings, and Continuo' the lovely sequential passages, make this a movement of outstanding beauty."

The accompaniment that Harnoncourt (1) supplies to Ruud van der Meer is too jumpy and danceable, that the entry point for his singing is most unsuitable. However the soft edge he has to his voice, helps him to be a very convincing and merciful Jesus. Heldwein (with Rilling) (2) singing has similar characteristics that help him to conquer indefinite accompaniment to achieve similar results to those of van der Meer. There is also certain gloom to the playing of the string and the Continuo in Rilling's recording, which makes the fugal aspect of this movement difficult to follow. Mertens (with Koopman) (3) is at his best in the role of Jesus. The delicate strings are playing around his wonderful and sensitive singing and picture a glamorous aura. I am not a Christian, but to me ears Ramselaar's voice (with Jan Leusink) (4) has all the characteristics identified with Jesus - youthfulness, authority, and mercy. The light and pungent playing of the strings give delicate contrast to the singing of Ramselaar. This is a very unique performance and one of the most satisfying I have heard from Jan Leusink's team so far. On the same level as his rendering of BWV 196, which has already been discussed in this group. 'The interweaving of these themes between voice, strings, and Continuo, the lovely sequential passages', wrote Robertson, and all these aspects are revealed to their best in both Koopman's and Jan Leusink's recordings of this spirited 'movement of outstanding beauty'.

Mvt. 2. Aria for Alto
'Ich will doch wohl Rosen brechen, wenn mich gleich die Dornen stechen' ('I shall then forsooth gather roses if the thorns prick me')
Alto. Violin solo, Continuo
"The words warn that the liberal promise made must be rightly interpreted. The violin solo charmingly suggests the blossoming roses in this very melodious Aria. The words of the middle section express confidence that the prayer of petition will be answered."

Unlike Robertson, I believe that in the first part of this splendid Aria, the Alto part represent the beauty and the odour of the roses and the violin solo represents the pricking thorns. I have never heard such pricking thorns as the sharp playing of the violinist of Harnoncourt (Alice?) transfers (1). The singing of Esswood (with Harnoncourt) is somewhat restrained and some of the charm of this Aria is not revealed. Watts (with Rilling) (2) has very expressive voice, but she does not convey successfully the gentleness of the situation. This performance sounds very nice, until you understand the meaning of the words. Then you realize that the violin playing is not sharp enough to represent rightfully the thorns. The strong aroma of the roses is so evident in Landauer's singing (with Koopman) (3), that the odour is transferred through the speakers and spreading in my room. The thorns in the violin solo playing are sharp, yet not too sharp, exactly the right amount of pain you fill when you are pricked by thorns of roses. I listened very carefully to Buwalda (4), because I was aware from previous discussions, that some members of this list do not like his voice. Indeed, there are some insecurities, but there is also kind of tenderness and gentleness to his singing and slight hesitation, which suit very well the atmosphere of this aria. Jan Leusink's violinist has done well his homework and his playing is very similar to the playing of Koopman's violinist.

Conclusion

Regarding the opening Bass Aria, all the Bass singers deliver high level performance of their parts. The difference is in the accompaniment they get and consequently Koopman achieves the best results. I prefer the Alto Aria also in Koopman's recor. Jan Leusink is very close second. The high level of performance of the first two movements in these two recordings is maintained along the remaining movements of this charming cantata. I am so sad that I have to part from it. It gave me many pleasant hours in the last week.

And as always, I would like to hear other opinions, regarding the above mentioned performances, or other recordings.

Marie Jensen wrote (May 30, 2000):
It was hard to move on from catchy BWV 166, but BWV 86 is great too.

We start with Jesus and the gospel of St. John again, and then we go out into the rose garden. Normally I do not connect Bach with a blooming garden scenery, pastoral rural settings perhaps, but romantic flower picking- not really- it belongs to another time- or to the love stories from the opera world, which he never really entered.

The alto aria: "Ich will doch wohl Rosen brechen, Wenn mich gleich die Dornen stechen" is something completely different. The rose is "Kampf und Kleinod" (BWV 12) in one -the earthly struggle- the heavenly reward. Baroque poets loved such contrasts. The rose was also used as a symbol of Christ, growing even in frozen ground or between greedy and hostile thistles. It is easy to find examples of this looking in my hymn book. Here the contrasts of the rose are described: the multitude of beautiful petals and the hostile thorns in one virtuoso violin part with flowing semi-semi quavers (I guess) over staccato "steche-stech" sounds. It is very essential that this contrast can be heard.

Later comes a tenor aria "Gott hilft gewiß; wird gleich die Hülfe aufgeschoben, wird sie doch drum nicht aufgehoben". It is not easy to write music to such a long sentence, which sounds more like a paragraph from a law book than a singable line in a poem. The first time Bach stops at "aufgeschoben". That sounds illogical. The next time fortunately the whole sentence is sung. Great that Bach manages to put music to such a text at all.

In our enthusiasm for Bach's music we often forget, that the cantata texts probably not would have survived without it, apart from the Bible quotations or the chorale texts of course, used today by Christian congregations world wide. Their artistic qualities vary a lot, also the technical. (We all know the terrible meter in "GEführt vor gottlose Leut" from "Christus der uns selig macht" in the second part of St. John BWV 245, or last weeks "sonDERN will ich verharren fest", BWV 166. Yet it is very impressing to listen to how Bach manages to make a very moving duet to "et in unum Dominum Jesum Christum" from the b - minor Mass (BWV 232), an even more complicated text construction than the one mentioned above)

But to get back to the cantata: In the tenor aria hope rises like a fanfare behind every phrase and the singer repeats the consolating word "gewiß, gewiß" again and again, underlined by orchestral pondus.

I know the cantata in 3 versions:
(3) Koopman (Erato, Vol.9) with Rubens, Landauer, Prégardien, Mertens and the ABC.
(4) Leusink (Brilliant Classics) with, Holton, Buwalda, Schoch and Ramselaar and the NBC
(1) A Leonhardt version taped from the radio (not quite sure of the soloists, but probably his usual Esswood, Equiluz, van Egmond team)

Looked upon as a whole none of the versions are bad and they are not very different, so when I end up with preferring Koopman, he wins because of the "Rose-Aria", which for me is the most important movement. In Leonhardt's and Leusink's version the "steche-stech" sounding thorns are very difficult to recognize. The violin play in the Koopman version is fantastic. Both petals and thorns are easily heard.

When it comes to the altos: Buwalda has big problems pronouncing the consonants especially l's and n's. (It sounds like (to be a little rude) he has a potato in his mouth!)

In the tenor (Gott hilft gewiß) aria the Leonhardt orchestra play has a little more pondus than the others, so Gods help seems a little more close here.

Finally and personally: A good friend of mine has been in Leipzig last week and put some roses on Bach's grave on my behalf. What a coincidence --- I shall always remember with gratitude - listening to this cantata...

Ryan Michero wrote (June 3, 2000):
This discussion will be over now that it is beginning due to list delays. But I will post my thoughts on recordings of this work in hopes that people will one day get to read this in the context of the Bach cantatas list web page.

(1) (Harnoncourt) This is one of the times I am sorry for those who for many years knew this cantata only through the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt recordings. Harnoncourt's recording, while not really bad, is mannered and a bit superficial, making this seem like a less satisfying piece of music. With angular lines, overly stressed downbeats, and choppy phrasing, Harnoncourt removes all traces of lyricism from Bach's beautiful Vox Christi bass aria. Ruud van der Meer blustery voice doesn't help the situation. Alice Harnoncourt's violin playing in the "Rose" aria is indeed prickly-- angular and devilishly fleet. Too bad that she sounds a bit off-beat when she plays those fast sequences. Esswood's style of singing isn't suited to this aria, and his lack of expression is not convincing. Bach's lovely chorale with intertwined oboes d'amore sounds nice if a bit rough here, and reliable boy soloist Wiedel sounds fine. Equiluz sounds expressive if strained in the tenor aria, and Harnoncourt's choppy phrasing and unusual stresses make Bach's charming string rhythms sound simply nervous. A disappointing recording.

(3) (Koopman) This recording is a different animal altogether. Koopman and his fine soloists and orchestra really bring out the beauty and charm of this cantata. The opening, semi-fugal aria is gorgeously lyrical in the hands of Koopman, with every turn of phrase savoured and with the lovely chromatic clashes of the strings making their full impact. Mertens' singing of this Vox Christi aria is exemplary--beautifully coloured, gently authoritative, and tenderly lyrical (Has Mertens sung as Christ in recordings of the passions? He's perfect for the role.) The playing of Koopman's reliable violinist Margaret Faultless in the rose aria is indeed faultless--lyrical and expressive but with a thorny edge in the virtuoso passages. Landauer's singing is again wonderful here--I love to listen to his voice. As in BWV 166, he ornaments the da capo repeat a lot, but I again found it convincing in context. He is very good at da capo ornaments, by the way, not just adding trills here and there but echoing some of the phrases of the violin line. The oboes d'amore of the soprano chorale are delectably pungent here, and Sibylla Ruben's restrained singing is fine. (It is a bit perverse to have such a high-powered virtuoso soprano singing a simple chorale. And why didn't Koopman choose the sopranos of his choir to sing here as he did in the equivalent movement of this cantata's sister work, BWV 166?). Prégardien is very fine in the tenor movements, expressive and colourful though strained in his upper tessitura, and Koopman and his orchestra make the instrumental rhythms of the tenor aria really irresistible. The final chorale is clear and expressive. In BWV 86 Koopman shows us what we have been missing while listening to Harnoncourt's recording and proves the piece to be a miniature masterpiece.

(4) (Leusink) Many of the list members know I am not the biggest fan of Pieter Jan Leusink's Bach recordings, but I must admit this is a fine recording, certainly preferable to Harnoncourt though not to Koopman. Leusink's orchestra is more transparent than Koopman's, allowing us to better hear the oboes in the mix. This gives the orchestral playing a lovely colour in the openingmovement, which Leusink plays somewhere between Harnoncourt's jauntiness and Koopman's sublime lyricism. Bas Ramselaar is very convincing here, beautifully expressive and authoritative though he doesn't melt the heart like Mertens. The violinist John Wilson Meyer in the alto aria is very good, again somewhere between the violin sounds in the versions of Harnoncourt and Koopman. Sytse Buwalda is convincingly expressive and colourful in this movement, but his insecure technique and strange German pronunciation leave much to be desired. (I loved Marie's crack about Buwalda sounding like he has a potato in his mouth! Maybe he had just come from the dentist?) The oboes are lovely if unpolished in the soprano chorale movement. Holton's voice here sounds a bit too insecure, but I do admire its boyish quality. I liked Knut Schoch's expressive singing in the tenor movements, even if his voice isn't really lovely or ideally secure. Leusink again strikes a balance between Harnoncourt's jumpy reading and Koopman's more refined and lovely account. The chorale sounds lovely, topping off a flawed but generally satisfactory reading.

Johan van Veen wrote (July 18, 2000):
Ryan Michero wrote:
(4) < regarding Pieter Jan Leusink recording: (Snip) Sytse Buwalda is convincingly expressive and colourful in this movement, but his insecure technique and strange German pronunciation leave much to be desired. >
Could you tell me please, where his German pronunciation is wrong? I have listened to that aria very carefully, and I am convinced that his German is correct. I have really no idea what you mean.

Ryan Michero wrote (July 21, 2000):
(4) (To Johan van Veen, regarding Sytse Buwalda German pronunciation) Forgive me for being unclear. I didn't mean to say that he was pronouncing the German language wrong, as a non-native speaker might. I know little about the language, and I'm sure Buwalda is a fluent German speaker. I meant to say that somehow the enunciation of his words sounds strange. This comment made more sense in the context of the cantata discussion that week, because earlier Marie Jensen had complained about the way Buwalda enunciated certain consonants (l's and n's). She joked that it sounded like he has a potato in his mouth!

You can see her original post on the cantata in this page above.

BWV 86, a rose among cantatas

Peter Bloemendaal wrote (May 27, 2003):
Last Sunday, May 25^th, was the Sunday Rogate. The church carefully chose this name – “you must ask” – for the Sunday preceding Ascension Day, the day of Christ’s final physical departure. In the appointed gospel reading – St. John 16: 23-30 – Jesus gives his farewell address to his disciples, although Gethsemane and Golgotha are still to come. Jesus knows He will only be with his disciples for a short time now. St. John relates in Chapters 13 – 18 how, after the Last Supper, Jesus begins to speak to his disciples, wrapping up everything He has taught them over the past three years. Anticipating their bewildering at the events to come, Jesus promises to send them a Comforter. In the “Rogate” reading, Jesus assures these young men that God the Father will give them whatsoever they shall ask him in his name. Life has not been real hard to them, but Jesus knows this will soon be different. The time is coming that they will badly need God’s support and help. But this does not go without saying. First you will have to ask, and then “ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.”

[4] So I decided to listen to BWV 86 and BWV 87, the cantatas Bach composed for this Sunday, respectively in 1724 and ‘25. How rewarding once more, especially “Wahrlich, wahrlich, ich sage euch”. After listening to my heart’s content, I decided to dedicate a few words on the first, although both of them were already discussed on this list in 2000 and 2001. Read the interesting contributions by Marie Jensen, Ryan Michero, Charles Francis and Aryeh Oron, of course. Especially Marie’s comment is original and refreshing. I recommend reading it again or for the first time, while listening. Marie is obviously incited by the alto aria, whereas Charles favours the bass arias. That is typically Bach. It is always hard to say which movement appeals to you most.

The first movement “Wahrlich, wahrlich, ich sage euch” is a literal quotation from the appointed reading. Bach indicates it as “Basso Solo” although it sounds like an aria. Arias, though textually not unimportant, were written for their beautiful melodies and even in Bach’s church music they turn out to be show pieces for the soloists. To Bach’s mind, the emphasis should be on the words of Jesus and not on the virtuosity of the singer. Operatic singing would be totally wrong here. To Aryeh’s observation, “Ramselaar's voice (with Pieter Jan Leusink) has all the characteristics identified with Jesus - youthfulness, authority, and mercy –, I would like to add that his rendering of Christ’s words is exemplary because here is a perfect blend of frugality and expressiveness. I love his modest singing. Here is a full voice in full control. This interpretation adds greatly to the unity of this fugal arioso, the voice being in complete harmony with the strings and the oboe d’amore.

The text of the aria for alto modifies the seemingly unlimited promise Jesus has just given to his disciples. No roses without thorns, but although the thorns will prick you, we can put our trust in Jesus, the rose of Sharon in the Christian tradition (Song of Solomon 2:1). And no matter how solitary the wilderness may be in our lives, we have the promise, “the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose” (Isaiah 35:1). Again we are reminded that God’s promise is not unconditional. Prayer is essential: rogate, betet und flehet, ask and beseech. Remarkable though, that whereas the rose is mentioned only twice in the Bible, it should become a beloved symbol in Christian poetry: “Es ist eine Rose entsprungen”, and even more in romantic secular poetry: “My love is like a red, red rose…” Dürr suggests that the figured ornamentation of the violin represents the heavenly glory, the hope of those who put their trust in the Lord. Who would argue with that. Yet, I agree with Marie and Aryeh that the prickly character of the violin’s agitated semiquavers rather reminds us of the thorns, the “Trübsal” we all will have to face in our lives. This is a very demanding aria for the violin solo. The prickly thorns must sting, yet be kept in check in wonderful concord with the alto voice expressing the joy about the rose as a symbol of divine love. The atmosphere is one of mixed feelings in which faith finally overcomes all perils. Thus the violin stops her “stechen” when the alto sings out her creed “Weil es mir sein Wort verspricht.” What a brilliant aria. Great playing by John Wilson Meyer, though he lacks some overall pungency. Glorious singing by Sytse Buwalda. Utterly convincing. Bravo!

The soprano aria is the 16^th stanza of the hymn “Kommt her zu mir, spricht Gottes Sohn” by Georg Grünwald (1530). Two oboi d’amore are in concert with the basso continuo and the soprano. Remarkable is the very sober soprano part, hardly any embellishments, just the cantus firmus and only some minor coloraturas on “seinem Namen” and “Christum”. Another stroke of genius! Through my Sennheiser Ovation open headphones you hear the directness of the recording. The clicking of the valves accompany the playing of the woodwinds throughout the aria. Ruth Holton’s unpretentious, unadorned rendition creates an almost chaste testimony. I see a nun kneeling in a chapel, tranquillity, a firm belief with, in the background, the heavenly music of the oboes.

The tenor recitative compares God’s trustworthiness to that of the world. Amazing thought that God’s promises must be fulfilled that we might see his pleasure and joy. Confident singing by Knut Schoch, with an affirmative final chord by the basso continuo.

“Gott hilft gewiß”. Bach knew quite well that when you are in doubt you to hammer it in: “Do not despair. One thing is sure. God will help you.”, Frequent repetition, so familiar in TV commercials and promotive plugging by DJ’s and VJ’s today, has always been a mighty tool to hammer the truth home. “Doubt” was considered to be Satan’s most powerful weapon. The only way to fight doubt is to keep on convincing yourself or being convinced that God will never fail you. So this continually repeated phrase is not just a statement of faith but rather a reinforcement of faith. Knut Schoch has the kind of voice befitting this assignment, supported by the full string section and the Basso continuo reliable in the background.

The uncomplicated chorale, the 11^th stanza of the hymn “Es ist das Heil uns kommen her”, forms the natural conclusion to this hope-giving cantata, a rose among cantatas.

Dick Wursten wrote (May 28, 2003):
[To Peter Bloemendaal] I highly appreciated your inspired and spiritual comments on BWV 86, but have a few comments on your introductory line about the origin of the name of this Sunday "Rogate": You wrote:

"Last Sunday, May 25th, was the Sunday Rogate. The church carefully chose this name - "you must ask" - for the Sunday preceding Ascension Day" .... "In the "Rogate" reading, Jesus assures these young men that God the Father will give them whatsoever they shall ask him in his name."

The gospel-reading you refer to as the "Rogate-Reading" is St. Johns gospel 16: 23-30. Jesus says: "Ask and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full."
Surprise: Hieronymus Latin translation of the gospel, the Vulgata, John 16: 24, doesnot use the verb "rogare", but "petere". So it reads: "Petite et accipietis, ut gaudium vestrum sit plenum".

If your introductory-line were true, the name of the sunday would have been: Sunday Petite. (Imagine you are French-speaking: Dimanche Petite ;-)

AFAIK the name of this sunday: 'Rogate' is linked to the oecological interdependance of men and nature. We -estranged modern men and women- live in oblivion, have lost consciousness of our manyfold links with nature, but in old days people were very aware of it : they had two special occasions to 'come to gods throne' because of this 'state of affairs'. Once to ask for a blessing over everything that grows on the fields and once to 'give thanks' for the fruit of nature that God has given. The last one we still know in a secularised form (Thanksgiving), the first one on a sunday in Spring, before Ascension Day: Therefore called sunday 'Rogate'.

Peter Bloemendaal wrote (May 28, 2003):
Dick Wursten wrote:
< The gospel-reading you refer to as the "Rogate-Reading" is St. Johns gospel 16: 23-30. Jesus says: "Ask and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full." Surprise: Hieronymus Latin translation of the gospel, the Vulgata, John 16:24, doesnot use the verb "rogare", but "petere". So it reads: "Petite et accipietis, ut gaudium vestrum sit plenum". >
Yet, my dictionary gives for "petere" "to pursue, to desire, to bargain, to demand". Remarkable that although the Vulgate uses "petere" in vs. 24, both my English and Dutch authorized versions of the Bible should use the word "to ask", which is "rogare" in latin. What is it in the Luther Bible? Does any Lutheran scholar or clergyman on this list have an explanation?

< You wrote: AFAIK the name of this sunday: 'Rogate' is linked to the oecological interdependance of men and nature. We -estranged modern men and women-live in oblivion, have lost consciousness of our manyfold links with nature, but in old days people were very aware of it : they had two special occasions to 'come to gods throne' because of this 'state of affairs'. Once to ask for a blessing over everything that grows on the fields and once to 'give thanks' for the fruit of nature that God has given. The last one we still know in a secularised form (Thanksgiving), the first one on a sunday in Spring, before Ascension Day: Therefore called sunday 'Rogate'. >
This would link the Sunday "Rogate" to our "Biddag voor gewas en arbeid", a day of prayer for growth and labour, which is still observed in my part of the Netherlands, which is sometimes called "the Bible belt" for obvious reasons. This day, however, is always on the second Wednesday of March. It is a holiday for our Christian schools.

Dick Wursten wrote (May 28, 2003):
[To Peter Bloemendaal] The problem is not the meaning of 'rogate', that is almost the same as 'petite', but the origin of the name of the Sunday... the name simply cannot be derived from the lectio of the sunday, since rogate is not in the lectio of the sunday (petite is) So this particular name has to come from some other text, probably a prayer or another lectio from the bible... I don't know and don't have the liturgical handbooks (romancatholic, pre-counciliary, Latin) which could give the answer.

Discussions in the Week of April 23, 2006

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 23, 2006):
Week of April 23: Cantata 86

Week of April 23, 2006

Cantata 86, “Wahrlich, wahrlich, ice sage euch”

1st performance: May 14, 1724 - Leipzig

First Annual Cantata Cycle, 1723-24 (Jahrgang I)

Previous Sunday in 1724 (Cantate Sunday)
Cantata BWV 166, “Wohin gehest du hin?”
Next Thursday in 1724: (Ascension Day)
Cantata BWV 37, “Wer da gläubet”
Next Sunday in 1724: (Exaudi Sunday):
Cantata BWV 44: “Sie werden euch”

Libretto:
John 16: 23 (Mvt. 1)
Georg Grünwald (Mvt. 3)
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Grunwald.htm
Paul Speratus (Mvt. 6)
See http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Speratus.htm
Anon (Mvts. 2, 4, 5)

Text:
See: http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~wfb/cantatas/86.html

English Translation:
http://www.uvm.edu/~classics/faculty/bach/BWV86.html

Other translations:
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV86.htm

Movements & Scoring:

Mvt. 1: Arioso
“Wahrlich, wahrlich, ich sage euch”
Soloists: Bass
Instruments: 2 Vn, Va, Bc

Mvt. 2: Aria
“Ich will doch wohl Rosen brechen”
Soloists: Alto
Instrumentss: Vns, Bc

Mvt. 3: Chorale
“Und was der ewig gültig Gott”
Soloists: Soprano
Instruments: 2 Oda, Bc

Mvt. 4: Recitative
“Gott macht es nicht gleichwie die Welt"
Soloists: Tenor
Instruments: Bc

Mvt. 5: Aria
“Gott hilft gewiss”
Soloists: Tenor
Instruments: 2 Vn, Va, Bc

Mvt. 6: Chorale
“Die Hoffnung wart' der rechten Zeit”
Choir: SATB
Instruments: NS

Liturgical Comments:

Written for the Fifth Sunday after Easter, Rogate Sunday. Unlike the other post-Easter Sundays, the Fifth Sunday does not take its name from the Latin introit. Rather it comes from the pre-Reformation procession with prayers for crops, hence “rogate” (= pray). Known in English as Rogationtide. Ascension Day, when a cantata was required, falls on the Thursday of this week.

Other Cantatas written for Rogate Sunday:
BWV 87 Bisher habt ihr nichts gebeten in meinem Namen (Leipzig, 1725)

The orders for Mass and Vespers can be found in an appendix at the end of this posting. Extracted from Wolff.

Texts of Readings:
Epistle: James. 1: 22-27; Gospel: John 16: 23-30
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Read/Rogate.htm

Introduction to Lutheran Church Year:
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lutheran.htm

Piano Vocal Score: (free PDF download)
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV86.htm

Recordings:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV86.htm

Music (free streaming download):
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Mus/BWV86-Mus.htm

Chorales:
“Kommt her zu mir, spricht Gottes Sohn”
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Kommt-her-zu-mir.htm
“Es ist das Heil uns kommen her”
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Es-ist-das-Heil.htm

Commentaries:
http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/bachjs/cantatas/086.html
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=42:65243~T1
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Previous Discussion:
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV86-D.htm

Performances of Bach Cantatas:
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Concert-2006.htm

Order of Discusssion (2006)
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Order-2006.htm

Appendix:

ORDER OF SUNDAY & HOLYDAY MASS (Amt) - 7:00 -10:00 am

1. Choir: Hymn in figural or polyphonic setting
2. Organ: Prelude introducing Introit
3. Choir: Introit Motet in figural or polyphomic setting

4. Organ: Prelude introducing Kyrie
5. Choir: Kyrie in figural setting
6. Choir: Gloria in figural setting (minister sings intonation from altar)

7. Minister & Altar Singers (lower form boys):
Salutation & Collect (Prayer of Day) sung from altar
8. Minister: Epistle sung from altar steps

9. Organ: Prelude introduing Hymn
10. Congregation: Hymn of Season (de tempore)
11. Minister & Altar Singers: Gospel with responses sung from altar steps

12. Organ: Prelude introducing cantata
13. Choir: First Cantata

14. Choir:: Credo sung in chorale setting, minister intones from altar steps
15. Organ: Prelude introducing Wir Glauben
16. Congregation: Wir Glauben All (German Credo)

17. Minister: Spoken annoucement of Sermon from altar
18. Organ: Prelude introducing hymn
19. Congregation: Hymn
20. Minister: Text of Sermon & Lord’s Prayer from pulpit
21. Minister: Sermon (8:00 a.m., 1 hour)
22. Minister: Prayers, Announcments & Benediction from pulpit

23. Organ: Prelude introducing hymn
24. Congregation Hymn
25. Mnister & Altar Singers: Preface in Latin from altar
26. Choir: Sanctus in figural setting (without Osanna or Benedictus)
27. Minister: spoken Communion admoniton, Words of Institution
28. Congregation: Distribution of Communion at altar steps

29. Organ: Prelude introducting Communion Cantata
30. Choir: Second Cantata

31. Organ: Prelude introducing hymn
32. Congregation: Hymn during Communion
33. Minister & Altar Singers: Collect with responses sung from altar
34. Minister: spoken Benediction

35. Organ: Prelude introducing Hymn
36. Congregation: Hymn
or
36. Choir: Hymn in figural setting (festal days)

ORDER OF AFTERNOON VESPERS 1:30 pm

1. Organ: Prelude introducing Hymn
2. Choir: Hymn in figural setting

3. Choir: Cantata (repeated from morning)

4. Organ: Prelude introducing Hymn
5. Congregation: Hymn
6. Minister & Altar Singers: Psalm
7. Minister: Lord’s Prayer from altar steps

8. Organ: Prelude introducing hymn
9. Congregation: Hymn

10. Minister: Annoucement of Sermon from pulpit
11. Congregation: Hymn
12. Minister: Sermon from pulpit
[13. Choir: Passion or narrativer oratorio, no cantata]
14. Minister: spoken Prayers, Collect & Benediction from pulpit

15. Organ: Prelude introducing Magnificat
16. Choir: LatinMagnificat in figural setting
17. Congregation: German Magnificat Hymn (Meine Seele)

18. Minister: spoken Responsary, Collect & Benediction from altar
19. Congregation: Hymn Nun Danket Alle Gott

Peter Smaill wrote (April 23, 2006):
BWV 86, "Wahrlich, wahrlich ich sage euch!" is, in its opening Bass representation of Jesus, a fine example of the tendency in Bach to rise to the most theologically significant texts with a vocal line of exceptional declamatory beauty.

The unusual linguistic structure of Jesus' words, "Verily, verily, I say unto you; whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, he shall give it to you" was the subject of debate previously. I have the exact related quote to hand from A N Wilson's "Jesus ":

"And then again, like the tiniest clue in a detective story there is that verbal mannerism, which the Christ of the Fourth Gospel shares with the Jesus of the Synoptics: "Amen, amen, lego soi," "Verily, verily, I say unto you...". It is not an idiom; it is an idiolect. We do not find it anywhere else in Greek, nor its equivalent anywhere else in Hebrew or Aramaic".

Bach's setting, in which orchestral imitation verifies the dictum, as if stressing Trinitarian assent to the words spoken after Resurrection and before Ascension, is nevertheless the purest vocal writing for voice:

"The utterance of Christ is in terms of calm and dignified beauty, strings and voice pursuing a fugal form in which there is little incident, but where everything is serene". (Whittaker).

"It is in the same key as the E major Fugue in the second book of the "48" (number 9) and is filled with the same spiritual and melodic beauty" (Robertson). (Conversely it will be remembered by anyone brought up with the Tovey edition of WTC that the Fugue referred to "with the exception of two outlying bass-notes .... is singable by an unaccompanied vocal quartet and has, in fact, been so sung with exquisite effect").

IMO the rythymn and shape of the subject are even more closely related to the opening contrapunctus of KdF (omitting the first two notes).In all cases the same delight in perfect vocal architecture is to be had.

The thorn "dornen" makes its appearance in BWV 86/2, alongside the roses; as was also noted in BWV 136/2; BWV 181/3; BWV 72/2-3; and BWV 161/2. Lucia Haselboeck in her "Bach Textlexikon" notes these incidences, along with the "Dornenkron" in the SJP (BWV 245). So just as the thorn image (here, the "Sündendornen" of sinful man) prefigures the "Dornenkron" in BWV 181 for 13 February 1724, it also appears several weeks after the SJP's first performance on 7 April 1724, in this cantata BWV 86 for 14^th May 1724. That the thorn image is not a passing reference is shown by the chromaticism at "stechen" ("pricking") according to Whittaker.

Bach moves from showcasing his (by now exhausted) violinist who finishes off the demanding rose-gathering soprano aria, to concentrating on the oboist in BWV 86/3, breathlessly continuous for 27 bars. Next the Tenor in BWV 86/5, "Gott hilf gewiss" has to ascend a high B!

Is Bach himself making a stylish theological point based on John 16: 23 and 24, to the effect that he has hitherto asked nothing like this from his own hard-worked disciples?! That whatever he asks of the musicians, they (literally) find inspiration to provide it?

Thomas Braatz wrote (April 24, 2006):
Peter Smaill wrote:
>>"It is in the same key as the E major Fugue in the second book of the "48" (number 9) and is filled with the same spiritual and melodic beauty" (Robertson).<<
At this point it might be worthwhile to ponder Eric Chafe's view on the allegorical associations connected with Bach's choice of keys:

pp. 152-153 from Eric Chafe's "Tonal Allegory in the Vocal Music of J. S. Bach" University of California Press, 1991:

>>Nevertheless, although the cantatas that feature conspicuous tonal planning cover a wide range of themes and affective spheres, one particular set of associations for the sharp and flat directions runs throughout many works: modulation in the flat direction for the world (and its particular attributes, such as tribulation) and the reverse for the anticipation of eternity, the realm of God, and the like. The present chapter deals with cantatas of the descent/ascent type, in which the world is hardly ever absent. But neither thnor any of the other principles of Bach's tonal planning has absolute, objective validity. The value of classifying key structures into types, like that of any attempt to systematize artworks, lies in its potential for illuminating the individual work, for its leading the interpreter closer to the fundamental questions of form, expressive content, and aesthetic value. Knowing that Bach arranged the key successions of the cantatas in a way that joins them to a spectrum of other compositions helps us to understand his musicotheological intent. For this reason, in this and the following chapter, we will take up the works according to their key structure type, reserving the right to intermingle works in different categories from time to time to demonstrate the expressive qualities of the plans themselves and the larger hermeneutic framework used to interpret their meaning. With relatively few exceptions the movement keys of any given cantata remain within the tonal region of a single ambitus, and of those that do not the great majority remain within a single genus (either sharps or flats). Only the Passions utilize the full spectrum of keys of the eighteenth-century circles of sharps and flats that enable us to consider shift of genus as an allegorical device. The Passions display these procedures most fully and in greatest detail, providing an array of tonal relationships that are not present in individual cantatas. Some of the relationships within the Passions, however, hold true for the whole corpus of cantatas, such as the range of keys for individual movements extending from F minor to E major, with the general associations of worldly tribulation and salvation attached to the two
extremes.

Footnote:
Bach associates E major in the cantatas with positive qualities-completely contradicting the interpretation for E major given by Mattheson ("Das neu-eröffnete Orchestre", p. 250)-among which blessedness (Cantatas BWV 8, BWV 60, BWV 124), salvation (BWV 9, BWV 17, BWV 49, BWV 86, BWV 116, BWV 139), resurrection (BWV 66, BWV 67, BWV 80, 94, 145), and trust (BWV 3, BWV 29, BWV 34a, BWV 107, BWV 139, BWV 171, BWV 200) are the most characteristic. B major-Heinichen's extremum chromaticum-is, however, extremely rare (Cantatas BWV 45, BWV 49, BWV 139) and never appears as a movement key, whereas G sharp minor appears in recitatives, almost always with negative associations (Cantatas BWV 8, BWV 9, BWV 60, BWV 67, BWV 107, BWV 116). E minor appears frequently, mostly with the association of suffering, sorrow, doubt, pain, fear, and the Passion (Cantatas BWV 4, BWV 7, BWV 20, BWV 32, BWV 60, BWV 75, BWV 81, BWV 84, BWV 88, BWV 91, BWV 92, BWV 100, BWV 109, BWV 135, BWV 138, BWV 147, BWV 155, BWV 158, among others). At the other end of the spectrum B flat minor-the extremum enharmonicum-appears only once as a movement key (Cantata BWV 106, "In deine Hände"); and as a key within recitatives it is associated almost always with darkness, the cross, and suffering (Cantatas BWV 2, BWV 13, BWV 21, BWV 23, BWV 29, BWV 46, BWV 47, BWV 48, BWV 52, BWV 54, BWV 78, BWV 93, BWV 102, BWV 105, BWV 127, BWV 134, BWV 146, BWV 159, BWV 186, BWV 199, and others). F minor is the flat limit for movement keys but unlike its sharp counterpart, E major, is never used as the key of a whole cantata: its associations are almost invariably anxiety, tears, tribulation, sin, pain, sorrow, care, suffering, and death (Cantatas BWV 3, BWV 12, BWV 14, BWV 18, BWV 20, BWV 21, BWV 47, BWV 48, BWV 54, BWV 55, BWV 56, BWV 57, BWV 70, BWV 78, BWV 89, BWV 102, BWV 105, BWV 112, BWV 131, BWV 146, BWV 186, BWV 187, and others); in this respect its associations are the most fixed. E flat minor appears only once in the cantatas (BWV 159) and once in the St. Matthew Passion (BWV 244), both times associated with the most extreme torment. C minor appears frequently, and overwhelmingly in association with death and burial (BWV 20, BWV 27, BWV 48, BWV 56, BWV 57, BWV 58, BWV 73, BWV 82, BWV 91, BWV 94, BWV 95, BWV 102, BWV 106, BWV 109, BWV 127, BWV 135, BWV 138, BWV 156, BWV 161, BWV 186, among others), several times with the mention of the "sleep of death." Other keys are not so firmly connected to their allegorical associations, although F sharp minor and B minor are often linked to the cross and suffering, and D and A major are usually positive, even triumphant. D and C, of course, often appear with trumpets and therefore bear strong associations of triumph, while F major (horns) sometimes has a pastorale association. [End of Footnote]

The general placement of the ambitus of any particular cantata with respect to the circle of keys is also important, particularly in the case of works in three or more sharps or flats. A few cantatas were conceived in terms of key areas whose tendency toward very sharp or flat modulations is a vital part of the meaning: for example, Cantata BWV 116 is very sharp in tendency, Cantata BWV 102 the reverse. Enharmonic relations are not rare and are always of great allegorical significance. Although they and all other extreme tonal devices are concentrated in the recitatives, they can still have a great effect on the overall plan.

Bach's first two cantatas for Rogation Sunday (Leipzig 1724 and 1725) offer interesting examples of tonality reflecting two different aspects of the same Gospel text (John 16: 23-30, from Jesus' farewell discourse). Bach begins each of the two cantatas with a dictum sung by the solo basso as vox Christi accompanied by strings and oboes. The first of these works, "Wahrlich, wahrlich ich sage euch" (Cantata BWV 86), stresses the predominating message of promise in the Gospel text-"Truly, truly I say to you, that whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, to you He will give it" (verse 23). Bach creates thereby a work pervaded by hope and the assurance of God's aid, set in the bright and uncomplicated key of E major. Although the movements move down tonally through A major and F sharp minor to B minor for the start of the first recitative (no. 4: "Gott macht es nicht gleich wie die Welt"), before returning to E major, the descent in no way offsets the sense of promise. In this work the world, although motivating the descent, does not generate affective associations of its own, and we arc probably justified here, as in other E major cantatas, in interpreting Bach's choice of key as a reflection of the place of E major at the upper limit of his tonal spectrum and hence as bearing a very positive association.<<

Neil Halliday wrote (April 25, 2006):
The BGA score does not specify the instruments, so I suppose Koopman [3] is entitled to drop the oboes that double the violins in other recordings - thereby perhaps best capturing the delicate tracery of the contrapuntal writing, and expressing a spiritual side of the movement (I like Robertson's comparison with the writing in the WTC2 E major fugue). The oboes complicate the polyphony in the Rilling recording [2]. Suzuki's [6] brisk, dance-like tempo perhaps misses some of the spiritual depth of this movement; a `cut C' time signature need not rule out a slowish pulse to the minims.

The alto aria features an attractive violin part with a rocking figure. Some see this part as representing the petals of a rose, others the thorns beneath the blooms; maybe in its musicality and its shape, it represents both. In the middle section of the aria, during the second statement of "my praying and imploring" (bars 60-65), the harmony becomes unusually passionate (especially with the plunge into A minor on "Bitten").

I get around a certain unpleasantness in Watts' voice [2] by playing the CD at a softer level than normal. The counter-tenors in the other recordings seem fine (web samples).

The soprano chorale features the gambolling oboes d'amore; Suzuki [6] quite successfully uses choir sopranos, in contrast to the solo sopranos in the other recordings.

Rilling's [2] bright, rich strings suit the cheerful, tuneful tenor aria, as does Kraus' bright, strong voice.

Overall, judging from other reports, it looks as if Koopman's recording [3] might take top billing, with Leusink [4] in second place.

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 28, 2006):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< I get around a certain unpleasantness in Watts' voice by playing the CD at a softer level than normal. >
I only have the Rilling CD with Watts [2], so I can't make comparisons. In her defense, I do find her voice at least satisfactory at all times I have heard (including BWV 86) and sometimes superlative. To each his own, I guess.

BTW, isnt this the same CD that with reference to BWV 83, you found you needed to increase the volume? Is the engineering that different, and perhaps a contributing factor to any unpleasantness you hear? My computer time is limited at present, so I need to be brief. We should have plenty of opportunity to continue in weekly discussions of coming works.

Neil Halliday wrote (April 29, 2006):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
>"BTW, isnt this the same CD that with reference to BWV 83, you found you needed to increase the volume? Is the engineering that different, and perhaps a contributing factor to any unpleasantness you hear?"<
In the Rilling cycle, even separate movements of the same cantata have apparently been recorded months, and sometimes years apart; sometimes I have noticed a difference in engineering standards within the same cantata.

With regard to Rilling's BWV 86 [2], I have no criticism of the engineering standards, and my comments about Watts' voice are only a personal reaction to her voice (I'm pleased you find her voice to be pleasant). The un-phrased continuo line in 86/2 also presents a problem for me - another subjective observation not necessarily
shared by other listeners.
------
Aryeh's report on the 60's recording of BWV 166 makes one hope that it is eventually transferred to CD, since I found none of the available recordings to be entirely satisfying.

Cantata BWV 86: Complete Recordings | Recordings of Individual Movements | Discussions

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Last update: ýApril 9, 2008 ý19:55:50