Cantata BWV 57

Cantata BWV 57
Selig ist der Mann
Discussions

Discussions in the Week of December 3, 1999

Aryeh Oron wrote (December 3, 1999):
Background

There have not been too many transactions since this list dedicated to JSB's cantatas had been launched. I decided to try and contribute something in hope that it will encourage other members of the group to do the same.

Aria for Soprano

As every Cantata Lover knows, every cantata contains at least one memorable piece. For my comparison I chose the Aria for Soprano "Ich wünschte mir den Tod" from cantata BWV 57. I compared all the performances I have (at the moment) in my own library.

Before getting into detailed comparison, I would like to quote freely from the Robertson book.

"BWV 57 is a solo cantata composed in Leipzig in 1725. It is difficult to explain why this cantata is so devoid of the joy proper to the season. This apart, it is in itself a beautiful work.

Mvt. 3 Aria
Ich wünschte mir den Tod wenn du, mein Jesu, mich nicht liebest
("I should wish for me death if Thou, my Jesus, me not lovedst")
Soprano, 2 Violins. Viola, Organ, Continuo.

The mourning speech, long and full of pathos, has, I think, what can be legitimately be called a 'tear motif' woven into the instrumental part, characterized by the two-note quaver groups combined with an imploring second theme.
The voice enters with a melody of its own which recalls the 'Agnus Dei’ in the B Minor Mass (BWV 232). At 'Ja, wenn du mich annoch betrübtest' (Yea! If thou me yet grieved') the continuo bass has the 'tear motif' in the accompaniment to the imploring prayer which ends, 'So had I more than Hell's Misery'."

End quote from Robertson.

Review of the Recordings

[8] Nikolaus Harnoncourt with Peter Jelosits (boy soprano) (1976; Aria for Soprano: 6:01)
The movement is played very slowly. So slow that it really kills the flow of the music. Sometimes we tend to think that slowly is sad. But too slow is actually dead. The Boy Soprano has a pleasant voice in the lower register and very ugly one in the upper one, where he is actually screaming. The main problem is that the boy is unable to transfer the deep sorrow in this movement. He is not helped very much by the fragmented accompaniment, which does not flow.

[11] Philippe Herreweghe with Vasiljka Jezovšek (soprano) (1995; Aria for Soprano: 5:34)
Sounds, how would I say, ordinary. The Soprano has no special character. The accompaniment is the strong part of this performance - Very light and gentle.

[6] Jean-Marie Auberson with Maria Stader (soprano) (1964; Recitative and aria for Soprano: 7:57)
Old fashioned performance. Very romantic. Some would say, too romantic. The accompaniment is a little bit heavy and lacks some sensitivity. But Maria Stader is very emotional and she knows how to transfer deep feelings and sorrow. To my ears, she does not feel comfortable in the Bach environment, but no doubt she is doing her best.

[9] Helmuth Rilling with Arleen Augér (soprano) (1981-1982; Aria for Soprano: 6:59)
This is the best performance of them all. Augér is one of the great assets of the Rilling Cantata Series. She has very beautiful and penetrating voice in all registers. She uses vibrato very economically and in the right places. With her one has the feeling the she gives the right emotional weight to every syllable. I was deeply moved by her performance. The accompaniment is very precise and has a lot of taste too.

[12] Pieter Jan Leusink with Ruth Holton (soprano) (1999; Aria for Soprano: 6:07)
Holton has a very angelic voice, of the Emma Kirkby type (BTW, has Kirkby recorded this piece?). Less expressive end less moving than that of Augér. Her transfer of feeling is very gentle and underneath. She adds some ornamentations that I do not recall hearing in other singers of that piece. I have got the impression that the conductor to avoid too much feeling in her singing guided her. Like, let the music speaks for itself. I enjoyed the accompaniment too.

[7] Helmut Winschermann with Elly Ameling (soprano) (1970; Aria for Soprano: 4:41)
I kept that one to the end, because I remembered very favourably Ameling, who was the first one that I heard in this cantata more than 15 years ago. Hearing her now I was a little bit disappointed. The piece is played very fast. In this case (opposite to the 1st one) so fast up to eliminating very much of the sorrow of this piece. The voice still sounds beautiful, but the accompaniment is too rich.

To summarize, Augér/Rilling [9] is my first choice for this beautiful piece of music. I would like to hear other opinions.

Jane Newble wrote (December 3, 1999):
Thank you Aryeh, for that comparison. I only have Winschermann [7] and Herreweghe [11], and I do like Ameling very much. What you say about Rilling [9] makes me definitely want to get that.

Dyfan Lewis wrote (December 4, 1999):
Dear Aryeh! Thanks for your great contribution. I believe you also reminded us about the Herreweghe program on Arte and the fantastic Leipzig music program about the fall of the Wall and the commemorative concert. Keep coming!

HRS wrote (December 5, 1999):
Dear Aryeh, Your analysis is correct. And I must say, it’s for the most cantatas the same (old) story...!

Marie Jensen wrote (December 5, 1999):
Yes, BWV 57 is a wonderful cantata, though I must admit I still only have it as an old tape-recorded version with Harnoncourt [8]. I agree with you: The boy Soprano is not good enough. The use of boy sopranos is one of the major reasons that I try to avoid Harnoncourt versions.

BWV 57 is one of the "dialogue" cantatas between the human soul and Jesus. The soul is the Soprano, Jesus is the Bass and the symbol of their unification is bride and groom. Other perhaps more clear examples are BWV 32 and especially BWV 49. I find it more natural, that a woman sings the bride. But that is a modern kind of view. BWV 57 is for the 2^nd day in Christmas, which has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus, but is dedicated to the first Christian martyr Stefanus who was stoned to dead, and the cantata describes love to Jesus and the longing to die for him, so that the soul and Jesus can be eternally united. If we compare with the Christmas Oratorio made as 6 separate cantatas for the Christmas and New Year holidays not a word of Stefanus is mentioned. Did Bach from time to time get a permission to skip Stefanus? Does somebody know, please tell...

Wim Huisjes wrote (December 5, 1999):
I think there's a simple explanation: the death of Stefanus (the story can be found in The Acts 7:54 and on) has no place in the Protestant liturgical calendar. If that were true (Alfred Dürr seems to back me up here), Bach would have had no obligation to write a cantata to commemorate this event.

Interesting in the cantata is that the first martyr in the Old Testament (Abel) and the New Testament are mentioned. For a biblical reference: Matthew 23:35 and 10:16. The cantata and in particular the soprano aria deals with death and life (in salvation), the contrasts beautifully portrayed in the two contrasting themes in the Soprano Aria.

As for the recordings mentioned: I agree largely with the stated opinion on the Rilling/Augér recording [9]: probably the best, though I find it (with 7 minutes) a bit slow. Winschermann/Ameling [7] is hard to discard. The tempo is about the same as Herreweghe (it is on HMF) [11] and another very well recorded one on Hungaroton: Pál Námeth with Maria Zádori (s) [10], also hato discard. The boy soprano in the Harnoncourt performance [8] clearly is not up to his job. And Pieter Jan Leusink in the Kruidvat cycle [12] (the quality of these cantata recordings the best kept secret from Brilliant Classics till they came out): surprisingly good. But that has probably been discussed already... Recording companies do make things difficult these days, there's just too much...

Marie Jensen wrote (December 6, 1999):
[To Wim Huisjes] Wim, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. I wrote my mail having the Danish Lutheran church liturgical calendar in mind, where the 2nd day of Christmas still is dedicated to St. Stefanus. But I know that Christmas traditions are very different around the world. I have heard that in England only 1st day of Christmas is celebrated. Perhaps the Danish people took St. Stefanus to their heart to get an extra day off...And to night you Dutch celebrate Santa Claus! Hope he brings a lot of Bach CD's! Well Bach composed about Abel, Stefanus and Christ.... And no one have ever done better!

Simon Crouch wrote (December 14, 1999):
My (Protestant) lectionaries indicate that the second day of Christmas can be celebrated either way (as 2 Christmas or as St Stephen) - Thus BWV 57 does follow the story of the martyr and the Christmas Oratorio follows the text for 2 Christmas. Dürr says (pardon my terrible German translation and please correct me if I've read it wrong!):
"Under the Bach cantatas for 2 Christmas this is actually a St. Stephen's day cantata, because it refers directly to the price of Martyrdom and uses no reference to the celebration of the birth of Christ at all."

Wim Huisjes wrote (December 15, 1999):
The destination of BWV 57 is clearly stated by Dürr. The question however was whether Bach would have been obliged to write a cantata for Stefanus day. The Reformation developed along different lines in various areas of Europe. I understand from Marie's message that the Danish Lutheran calendar knows a Stefanus day. In The Netherlands, the Reformation (following the teaching of Calvin, more so than Luther) was much more radical and violent than the Lutheran one (at the time the country was part of the Spanish kingdom and a.o. badly suffering from the Spanish Inquisition). All saints were demoted (Bach's SMP (BWV 244) has been and is always referred to as just MP) and in the Dutch Protestant calendar there is not a single day dedicated to any saint. So for me the question remains: did the Lutheran calendar in northern Germany in Bach's time have an "official" Stefanus day which (probably) would have OBLIGED Bach to write a cantata for the occasion? If so, why would Stefanus (AFAIK) be the only exception? A likely explanation might be that it was an unofficial, more or less one-time affair. Dürr writes about what he calls a "Stephanus-Kantate" (quotes included), leaving out the word "Saint". BWV 40 and BWV 121 were also written for second Christmas day and these two cantatas are clearly meant to celebrate Christmas.

Simon Crouch wrote (December 16, 1999):
Wim, My apologies, I completely missed the point of your question – my only excuse is dementia caused by too much unpacking. I need to check some library references to answer this one, but I'm fairly sure that the answer is no, he would not have been obliged to do so. Of course it would have made sense if the pastor had chosen the alternative gospel and epistle for that day (but Bach didn't always follow the set readings as models for his cantatas). What I need to check is how likely it is that the pastor would have done this - my limited understanding of the situation is that practice varied enormously even within individual towns in that area. Research into Leipzig area liturgy is still an active subject and shows that some practice seemed to be surprisingly close to Catholic tradition.

Vincenzo Vennarini wrote (December 6, 1999):
I must confess I did not reach BWV 57 yet! (I'm following an order based to the scores availability...). I am very curious: I can't wait to listen to it this night at home. I will report ASAP about it! (But I have only Harnoncourt version....) [8]. It is such a pleasant sensation to have a treasure full of discoveries ready to be done… that never ends!!! Even when I will finish the "first" listening to the whole cantatas set, each new one will be a re-discover. More than once I neglected the importance of an aria of a choir, to discover it after three or four listening!!!! Once more, thank you Mr. Bach!

Kirk McElhearn wrote (December 7, 1999):
[11] I bought the Herreweghe box of the Most Beautiful Cantatas today. I only had heard his Masses, Passions, and the Easter Oratorio before. I am listening to the very first one now, and I must say it is a shame that he is not planning to record them all. He seems to have the best feeling for these works of any versions I have yet heard (haven't heard Koopman [14] though...). There is a certain balance in both the voices and the instruments... And, considering the discussion on the Cantatas List on BWV 57 and the soprano, it is such a pleasure to hear the voices (Here, Scholl) that are not little boys.

I have the complete Harnoncourt/Leonhardt Cantatas, but I see now that I need to get more different versions. Rats, just when I thought I had enough Bach CD's.... Kudos to HM for releasing these cantatas in low-priced box sets!

Kirk McElhearn wrote (December 7, 1999):
Just got around to listening to this. I only have the Harnoncourt version [8], and I agree that the soprano lacks depth. So, which complete set should I get to add to my Leonhardt/Harnoncourt? Rilling [9] (cheap), Koopman [14] (more expensive, for now)... What is the current best bet?

Samuel Frederick wrote (December 7, 1999):
[To Kirk McElhearn] Go for the Suzuki volumes!

Kirk McElhearn wrote (December 7, 1999):
[To Samuel Frederick] Is this to be complete? What price ranges are they in?

Wim Huisjes wrote (December 7, 1999):
[To Kirk McElhearn] Depends of course on your priorities: if you want it HIP, get on with Koopman (or Suzuki, IF he plans to finish the cycle in x years; at the rate he's going you need a lot of patience). Hänssler gives you excellent value for money though. Erato and BIS are priced the same over here (full price). Personally I got started with the Koopman set and plan to finish it. With each volume he's getting even better. And I don't need more than four (Kruidvat included).

Samuel Frederick wrote (December 7, 1999):
I think Ryan's reply was much more convincing than my laconic 5-word suggestion. He's right, these recordings are very special, and you ought to at least try listening to a volume or two. Each volume is a single disc. In the US they go for around $19, which is far from cheap, but you may find them for a better deal on-line. Either way, they are well worth the investment. I began with the Teldec set Harnoncourt/Leonhardt), but was quickly overwhelmed by so much music, and also, even more quickly, put off by the boy soprano and alto. With Suzuki's series, as Ryan said, you can digest each cantata (in chronological order!) for months before the next CD is released. I'm a bit behind (I only have up to volume 7), but will soon catch up and find myself discovering a new Bach masterpiece about three times a year until the year 2018! I'm delighted with that.

Matthew Westphal wrote (December 7, 1999):
(To Kirk McElhearn) I would recommend the Suzuki as well - it seems to be the most consistently good of the series now underway. Yes, it to be complete (unless BIS, the label in question, changes its mind), but Suzuki is in no hurry to get through all of the cantatas by the end of 2000 as Koopman and Erato are. Kirk, I'm not sure what the price point for BIS is in , but in the US their CDs go for $15-$18 each (depending on the retail outlet).

Kirk McElhearn wrote (December 8, 1999):
I will wait until the Koopman is finished, I am sure there will be a good price on the complete set then.

Ehud Shiloni wrote (December 14, 1999):
(To Aryeh Oron) Thanks, Aryeh, for a thorough and enlightening discussion. Judging by your comparison of six (!) different versions, I'd say you must have an awesome collection!

[11] Herreweghe's version is the only one I have. I thought Jezovšek sounds quite neat, but I have to somewhat agree with your definition of "ordinary" - there is no "wow" factor in her singing. I was personally more impressed with Peter Kooy's singing in both the opening Arioso and in the Aria "Ja, ja, ich kann die Feinde schlagen". The liner notes call this aria "Confident", and this is exactly the word I'd use to describe Kooy's performance here. Straying a bit afield, I will add that this Bass aria reminded me of another one - "Himmel, reisse, Welt, erbebe" from the 1725 version of the SJP (BWV 245) - which has a somewhat similar agitated nature [Kooy sings this aria on BCJ/Suzuki version - very impressive IMO]. I have no ability at all at any musical analysis, and perhaps one of List members can comment on any similarity (?) between the two, other than the fact that both were composed in 1725.

[9] Rilling/Augér: With such a strong vote, this one goes on my shopping list. A question to all members: What is the best source for buying INDIVIDUAL CD's of Rilling Cantatas, with full liner notes in ENGLISH? Much obliged for a solution to this elusive quest.

Helmut Winschermann's BWV 57 "Selig ist der Mann"

John Pike wrote (February 28, 2007):
In December 2005, when BBC Radio 3 broadcast their "Bach Christmas", they chose Helmut Winschermann's recording of this cantata [7]. I remember my wife and I being deeply moved as we listened to it one morning, getting dressed for work. Sadly, it seems to be unavailable now, and I have had it on Amazon pre-order since Dec 2005. Does anyone know how I could get a copy of that recording legally?

Discussions in the Week of August 12, 2007

Russell Telfer wrote (August 11, 2007):
Introduction to cantata BWV 57 - Selig ist der Mann

Discussion for the week beginning 12^th August 2007:

Introduction to Cantata BWV 57 Selig ist der Mann
Blessed is the Man

The first performance of this cantata was on the feast of St Stephen, 26^th December 1725, following the Christmas day performance of cantata BWV 110 which was under review last week.

Text was mainly by Georg Christian Lehms with further text by Ahasverus Fritsch and from the Bible: James Book I.

BWV 57 is a solo cantata with roles for Jesus (baritone) and Die Seele - The Soul - (soprano). Bach's choir would have had a rehearsal day off, but be in attendance to sing the final Choral.

The text of this cantata is unusual: we have a dialogue between Jesus and the Soul, where the Soul is - at least in the final chorus - the collective soul of the body of the church.

With regard to cantata BWV 110, reviewed last week, I expressed my feeling that music did not match the text well in some verses. My online colleagues took a different view, which I acknowledge.

In the case of this cantata I believe that music matches text perfectly.

Here are some details of the eight verses. I quote translations [which I provide from the website, with continuing gratitude to the translators] of the opening text which usually give one an idea of the likely mood and tempo of the musical treatment.

Anyone who wished to look beyond the music to understand the unfolding dialogue between Jesus and the Soul would find it helpful to choose one of the translations on the following link: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/IndexTexts.htm

Mvt. 1:
Blessed is the man who bears temptation with patience

The bass soloist, portraying Jesus, is supported by two oboes and taille, and four part strings plus organ continuo. Bearing in mind the conventions in the passions to place Jesus with rich string accompaniment, how does this compare?

Mvt. 2:
Ah! this sweet comfort doth Restore my heart as well,

Much more simply, musically, the Soul expresses humility and abasement in recitative form. Accompaniment by Continuo only.

Mvt. 3:
I would now yearn for death, If thou, my Jesus, didst not love me.

A sombre movement for the Soul, supported by strings. A modern commentary might invite readers to consider the boundaries between sacred and secular love.

Mvt. 4:
I stretch to thee my hand, My heart as well comes with it.

In the most basic form, accompanied only by organ, a short dialogue between Jesus and the Soul. A far cry from the lush strings of the passions.

Mvt. 5:
Yes, yes, I can thy foes destroy now

The agitated tempo and dance-like nature of this beautiful and musically uplifting aria for Jesus and string orchestra would, I believe, be more likely to suggest a secular cantata.

Interestingly, it is scored for strings only and yet (this is my purely subjective impression) after the event you might imagine that you had heard it performed by a full Bach orchestra. This does depend on a successful solo performance. Overall I slightly prefer Rilling's [9] soloist to Leusink's [12], although both are admirable.

Mvt. 6:
Within my lap life's peace abideth,
This I will once give thee forever

This presents continued dialogue in recit form between Jesus and the Soul.

Mvt. 7:
I'd quit now so quickly mine earthly existence, with gladness ..

An allegro aria for the Soul this time with obbligato violin and continuo. Yet again, I feel, music matches text perfectly. Note again the sentiments of verse 3.

Mvt. 8:
Bring, my belove'd, my hopes to fulfillment

Here we have a simple closing chorus to the tune of Lobe den Herren, den mächtigen König der Ehren heard recently in BWV 137.

In recent weeks I have studied Bach's sacred choral works closely. Like BWV 110, BWV 79, BWV 164, and others before them, I have realised how diverse was Bach's cultural span. Despite the gaps in our knowledge, it is amazing how much we can put together about his life and work.

Julian Mincham wrote (August 11, 2007):
Russell Telfer wrote:
< Anyone who wished to look beyond the music to understand the unfolding dialogue between Jesus and the Soul would find it helpful to choose one of the translations on the following link: >
Just to add that BWV 32, which will be reviewed in a month or so, also is constructed around a dialogue between Jesus and the Soul and consequently invites comparison.

Douglas Cowling wrote (August 11, 2007):
Cantata BWV 57 - Selig ist der Mann - Christmas or St. Stephen?

Russell Telfer wrote:
< Introduction to Cantata BWV 57 Selig ist der Mann
Blessed is the Man
The first performance of this cantata was on the feast of St Stephen, 26^th December 1725, following the Christmas day performance of cantata BWV 110 which was under review last week >
I am curious about December 26 being both the Second Day of Christmas and St. Stephen's Day. There are two sets of readings. The first has the Lucan Gospel of the Shepherds at the Manger. This is the controlling reading for Cantatas BWV 40, BWV 121 and Part Two of the Christmas Oratorio (BWV 248).

The secoset of readings has the Acts account of the martyrdom of Stephen and the Matthean gospel about the stoning of prophets. Cantata BWV 57, "Selig ist der Mann" is clearly a meditation on the perseverance and death of Stephen. Bach even retains the pun on the name "Stephanos" meaning "crown" in the opening movement (Mvt. 1).

This appears to be the only time that Bach used the St. Stephen's Day readings as a basis for a cantata. Do we know why? Who made the decision which set of readings was used? Do Dürr or Stiller address the question?

Jean Laaninen wrote (August 11, 2007):
[To Douglas Cowling] Quoting Dürr: "Among Bach's cantatas for the Second Day of Christmas, this work, first performed on 26 December 1725, is the true St. Stephen's Day cantata, for it makes no reference at all to the celebration of Christ's Birth and from the very beginning praises martyrdom. It is also the most personal cantata for the day, for, as we see at once in the second movement, its subject is not external temptation or persecution but rather the distress caused by the temptation of sin, over which Christ is celebrated as victor. The personal theme is reflected in Bach's setting: he himself designated the two characters of this dialogue cantata as 'Jesus' and 'Anima' (the Soul); and the dialogue form of the work is even carried out to the concluding four-part chorale (Mvt. 8)."

He also develops the matter in a long paragraph related to the texts and the old and new covenant. The soul is promised the Kingdom of Heaven. There is more... I find Dürr gives this particular cantata a great deal of information. He indicates a parallel with opera, and as Russell has mentioned the music and text hold together very well.

Peter Smaill wrote (August 13, 2007):
[To Douglas Cowling] Of the works for 26 December this is indeed as Dürr states the only one that reflects on the Martyrdom of St Stephen, along with St Michael and the Evangelists, one of the few Saints recalled in the Lutheran Kalendar; many Lutheran chuches are named after him. The Lehms text is unusual, however, in another respect.

More striking is the choice of the text for BWV 57/1 "Selig ist der mann", from the Book of James. It is, per Unger, the only quotation from this Book of the New Testament in the whole of the Cantatas.

James is given out by St. Paul as the brother of Jesus, and is considered by scholars to have continued a judaic branch of Christianity - for example, insisting on circumcision- at Jerusalem . Some scholars think him not a brother but a cousin; others a son of Zebedee or James the Less. Whatever, the point is that Luther did not consider the Book of James to be canonical since it denies justification by faith(Jms 2-26); he describes it as an "epistle of straw".

Such considerations obviously did not prevent Lehms and Bach from quoting from it and setting it to music-just once.

Douglas Cowling wrote (August 13, 2007):
Peter Smaill wrote:
< Whatever, the point is that Luther did not consider the Book of James to be canonical since it denies justification by faith (Jms 2-26); he describes it as an "epistle of straw". >
"Throw Jimmy on the fire" was Luther's impatient riposte to the biblical book which didn't fit his theology.

One of the reasons that I am so interested in the use of the St. Stephen readings is that I hear many echoes of a Passion -- and Bach was working on the SMP (BWV 244) at the time. I think that the wonderful sarabande in the opening aria (Mvt. 1) has many similiarities to the closing chorus of the SMP (BWV 244), "Wir setzen" -- those sinking bass lines. The Brandenburg Concerto ritornello in "Ja, Ja Ich Kann Die Feinde Schlagen" is closely related to "Der Held von Juda siegt" in the SJP (BWV 245).

Did Bach have the personal option of using the St. Stephen's readings or were they controlled by a liturgical ordo? If he did ask to use these readings, is the cantata a spark from the creative blaze of the SMP (BWV 244)? Like the "Wesendock Lieder" and "Tristan und Isolde"?

Jean Laaninen wrote (August 13, 2007):
[To Douglas Cowling] For as long as I can remember St. Stephen's day has been observed in the Lutheran Churches I have known, and although I do not have any academic evidence on this issue, I think this day was probably on the calendar, and therefore an option for a cantata. I read in Schweitzer last night (now I have finally finished this intensive book) that Bach considered religion to be art, that is to say, a form of worship, and in that context even the difficult subject of martyrdom was probably a dramatic and worth-while project. As I have opportunity to explore the cantatas I become more and more intrigued with Bach's way of painting the story with his innumerable skills.

Jean Laaninen wrote (August 13, 2007):
[To Peter Smaill] Please tell us about the text by Unger. Thanks.

Peter Smaill wrote (August 13, 2007):
[To Jean Laaninen] Thanks for this question -"what does unger actually say about the text of BWV 57/1-which me allows a moment to expand on how Unger's "Handbook to Bach's Sacred Texts" is helpful, and its limitations.

In full it is "An interlinear translations with reference Guide to Biblical Quotations and Allusions". Unger studied under Rilling, who writes a brief foreword, and this work was made possible by the arrival of computerised Bibles with search capability. Unger uses the 1971 US version of the Revised Standard Version for the English translations, sticking to literal word order, but he also sometimes reflects on the Lutheran text where it deviates materially.

Not always does this sublety get picked up. I was, for example , excited to discover a text set by Bach in the Ratswahl Cantata BWV 71, "Gott ist mein Konig" was also the inscription on the frame of a portrait of the Pietist/Bohemian Brotherhoof leader, von Zinzendorf. The text is "Dein alter sei wie deine Jugend" from BWV 71/3. The biblical RSV version by Unger is "As your days, so shall your strength be". This is not really the same as "May your old age be as your youth" , my literal translation of the German. Was this therefore an original text linking the poetic circle of Bach to that of Zinzendorff?

However, Michael Marissen pointed out that the Lutheran Bible gives the text from Deuteronomy 33:25 just as the German has it; the phrase was not an original invention by Bach's librettist, which would have been an interesting link!

Back to BWV 57. Unger does not "write up" the text, so any errors in the assessment of the Luther position are down to me! He simply records against the German text of 57/1: :

Jms. 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown (Greek:Stephanos) of life which god has been promised to those who love him . (Also Jms 1:2-4)

There are listed associated ideas relating to St Stephen and the general theme of suffering drawn from Acts 7, Matthew 23, and 1 Peter 4. These, however are really tangential to the clear main source in the Book of James.

Unger rather emphasises the outlook of Stiller, namely, that the Cantatas are completely rooted in Scripture. Perhaps this approach misses the additional importance of the mystical and Trinitarian impulses which are neither in conflict with Scripture nor they expressly stated in the Bible.

The useful index area cuts and dices the texts by number, Cantata incipit, movement themes, stanza incipit, chorale references, librettists and scriptural quotes. From the last I was able to make the bold statement that the Book of James occurs uniquely in BWV 57. Many of the books of the OT are never quoted but Sirach, from the Apocrypha, occurs four times according to Unger. This text, relatively obscure to us moderns, was not the particular love of a single librettist but seems to have been used by a numbof unknown poets.

Even here I have slight reservations in that BWV 179/1 is attributed to the book of Sirach by Unger but to Ecclesiastes by Dürr. This may be a problem of the word-matching process of the computerised texts in Unger. The message is; Unger is a great resource, but needs to be used with care.

Douglas Cowling wrote (August 13, 2007):
Peter Smaill wrote:
< There are listed associated ideas relating to St Stephen and the general theme of suffering drawn from Acts 7, Matthew 23, and 1 Peter 4. These, however are really tangential to the clear main source in the Book of James. >
I agree that this is primarily a theological cantata rather than a recreation of the martyrdom of Stephen, although it is worth noting that the biblical scene closes with Stephen's vision of Christ at the moment of death and his subsequent reception into heaven -- an encouragment perhaps to the librettist to use the Soul - Christ dialogue form.

Do we know on what occasion the concluding chorale, "Lobe den Herrn" (Mvt. 8) was usually sung? The cantata text refers specifically to the Acts passage.

Jean Laaninen wrote (August 13, 2007):
[To Peter Smaill] Thank you, Peter.

I have printed a copy of these notes and will take it with me to the library where I will take a good look at Unger. The translation you point out below is indeed very interesting. I recall from my studies at Fuller that translations vary through exegesis by the other sources that one can consult. I had a number of books from the Roman Catholic tradition that I used sometimes in connection with Greek at that time. Another top notch student told me once that translation is more of an art than one would imagine. Sometimes the translations fit with the over-all text and sometimes the choice of words is peculiar. This of course has led to insights or lack thereof, and the best work in translations can be very time consuming. And, translation can be subjective as well as understanding the material. But if one has parallel materials from the time period in which something has been written a far more educated perspective is possible. In the cantata translations when I translate I go word for word for singing, and in part on the assumption that the composer placed those words in a particular order either based on the language and its grammar, or for poetic emphasis. Maybe others would not feel either always applies.

I did not read the Apocrypha until later in life, but it makes sense to me that Bach might have had a copy even though the Reformation brought about the removal of various materials from regular use in the church. From what I have read on this list and in some texts on Bach's life just this summer he had an excellent library.

In the text you mentioned the historical value and the poetic value might have been retained by the scholar due to his methods of translation. Translation and text criticism certainly can lead to a variety of interpretations, and when so many interesting questions come up regarding sources it certainly is enjoyable to look at the challenge of making some decisions as to validity. Thanks again.

Neil Halliday wrote (August 15, 2007):
The opening aria (Mvt. 1) is one of those that sets a biblical text for bass voice, accompanied by rich string writing (reinforced by col' parte woodwinds). It features long held notes on keywords, syncopation of some phrases, expressive trills in the rich instrumental polyphony, and lovely modulations, including some chromatic passages.

At the start, violins 1 and 2 present the basic instrumental motif via Bach's oft-employed little canon at the unison (listen for the successive trills), followed by violas an octave lower, and then continuo in inversion. The diminished harmony on the first "Krone" is striking; and the last "Krone" is held for four bars accompanied by the imitative figures with trills in the upper strings, to be concluded with a lovely melisma based on a segment of the cycle of fifths.

Werner [5] fully captures the beauty of this score, with the lovely string orchestra complemented by the powerful, yet gentle and most attractive singing of Barry McDaniel (see an interview at the BCW: Interview with the Baritone Barry McDaniel). Some of the detail noted above may seem `matter-of-fact' (if noticed at all) in Harnoncourt's fast tempo version. Of the others, Rilling/Heldwein [9] is fine, and the samples of the other recordings all sound attractive; but Werner is undoubtedly my favourite. (It seems Werner reserves the col' parte woodwinds for non-vocal sections - quite effective, IMO).

The first soprano aria (Mvt. 3) is also in the minor key and in triple time (all the non-recitative movements are in triple time). Once again the string writing is rich and expressive, with the expected striking harmonies on "Tod" and "Höllennoth". Rilling [9] takes this aria at nearly half the speed of Werner [5], and Auger (with Rilling) brings the required expressiveness to the vocal line, apart from a couple of places where she sings too forcefully. Werner's strings are lovely, with Giebel's singing satisfactory. All the BCW internet samples seem to be satisfying, with Harnoncourt's boy soprano [8] and Leusink's Holton [12] being pleasing to my ears (as far as the samples go).

The `5^th Brandenburg' strings are most attractive in the lively major key bass aria. Once again McDaniel [5] is superb. Harnoncourt [8], Gardiner [13], and Koopman [14] seem to be `off to the races', with their fast tempos.

I especially like the `bariolage' sections for solo violin in the attractive soprano aria. All recordings are satisfactory, though Herreweghe's soprano [11] has a vibrato that I do not find attractive.

The Rilling booklet [9] notes that the final words of the chorale ("out of this tortured body") are set to `crude' harmonies, but a better description would be surely be `striking' harmonies. Gardiner's [13] final chorale seems disjointed and fast; however he can be commended for his performance of the other movements, if I can judge from the internet samples.

Jean Laaninen wrote (August 15, 2007):
Neil Halladay wrote:
< The opening aria (Mvt. 1) is one of those that sets a biblical text for bass voice, accompanied by rich string writing (reinforced by col' parte woodwinds). >
Please explain the term col'parte. Thanks, Neil.

Neil Halliday wrote (August 16, 2007):
Jean Laaninen wrote:
>Please explain the term col'parte<
I presume it's an Italian term (which appears in the scores occasionally) meaning on or with the part.

The oboes do not have independent parts. In 57/1, oboes 1, 2, and 3, simply double violins 1, 2, and violas, respectively.

Jean Laaninen wrote (August 16, 2007):
[To Neil Halliday] Thanks, Neil.

Cara Emily Thornton wrote (August 16, 2007):
[To Jean Laaninen] Yes, that's right. Actually, it's usually written 'colla parte', and what it means is that the soloist is singing something where they can take a great deal of liberty with the tempo (e.g. there's a cadence in long notes, with cadenzas), and 'colla parte' is a signal to the orchestra that they are to play not strict note values as written in the score, but rather wait for the soloist to finish whatever embellishments are being added and only then go on to the next note along with the soloist.

Neil Halliday wrote (August 16, 2007):
'colla parte' (was: Introduction to cantata BWV 57 - Selig ist der Mann)

[To Cara Emily Thornton] Interesting. I thougtht I had seen the term used as I described, but maybe not. Certainly,the final chorales often have alongside the soprano clef, for example: oboe I, II, violin 1, col' Soprano; violin II col' Alto, etc.

Perhaps, to avoid confusion, I should have simply written (of Mvt. 1): woodwinds double the strings.

Richard A.A. Larraga wrote (August 16, 2007):
My name is Richard Larraga and I'm a choral conductor based in Boston, Massachusetts. I'll be conducting Cantata 10 (Meine Seel erhebt den Herrn) this fall at the Longy School of Music in Cambridge. I've conducted a number of cantatas and performed the b minor Mass with one voice per part a few years ago.

While Cara is correct about the use of colla parte in concertos, in the cantatas, colla parte just means the instruments are doubling the vocal parts for support.

Looking forward to some interesting discussions.

Cara Emily Thornton wrote (August 16, 2007):
[To Neil Halliday] That sounds reasonable too, although I've never seen it myself. So what it would mean is that oboe I, II, violin I double the soprano, etc. The usage I was thinking of is written directly over that one little place where something like what I have described below is going on. I think I may also have seen something like this in recitatives where there are instruments playing long notes under the 'reciter', so that the effect is that the reciter will sing such and such words, and then the accompaniment will change on this or that word. So it seems from what you're saying that the term has more general application than either of us suspected.

Douglas Cowling wrote (August 16, 2007):
[To Cara Emily Thornton] For the music of Bach, "colla parte" means that an instrument doubles another instrumental or vocal part. Bach uses it in almost every final chorale where the instruments are distributed over the four vocal parts. Even though the later meaning to follow the soloist is implicit in Baroque cadenzas, I don't think the marking appears before the Classical period.

Russell Telfer wrote (August 16, 2007):
Introducing myself - and BWV 57

Richard Larraga wrote:
< My name is Richard Larraga and I'm a choral conductor based in Boston, Massachusetts. I'll be conducting Cantata BWV 10 (Meine Seel erhebt den Herrn) this fall at the Longy School of Music in Cambridge.
Looking forward to some interesting discussions. >
Welcome Richard, I'm sure you will be able to gather much useful information from this forum, and at the same time offer us your own perceptions on presenting Bach's choral music and related matters.

I've been following the many posts on cantata BWV 57 and have learned much from the correspondence this week. I get the impression some of my fellow posters are lurking round university libraries digging out primary sources at will. Some of us are not so lucky!

Jean Laaninen wrote (August 16, 2007):
[To Cara Emily Thornton] Thanks for the elucidation, Cara. There are so many things to learn here--all a delight.

Julian Mincham wrote (August 16, 2007):
I haven't kept up with all the postings this week so apologies if this has already been commented upon.

It's worth noticing the tonal originality of the second soprano aria which is one of those few movements (recits excepted) that do not end in the tonic key. In fact this Gm aria ends on a Bb chord--a question is asked and left hanging in the air for the chorale to respond to. Incredible originality and yet another example of Bach's extreme sensitivity to aspects of the text leading him to moderate fundamental structural elements of the music.

Interestingly the other cantata of this period to bring together a dialogue of Jesus and the Soul, BWV 32 leads to a joyous operatic love duet between the two of them. This union is not consummated in the same way in BWV 57 where they never actually sing together.

Has anyone noticed that Bach's Christmas music for this year, particularly after BWV 110 on the day itself, seems more muted and introspective than that of the first 2 cycles? There doesn't seem to be any significant event in his life that might explain this--other than, perhaps an ever developing maturity??

Peter Smaill wrote (August 17, 2007):
[To Julian Mincham] Julian and others detect that the Lehms phase of the Cantata cycle offers change to a more muted style and with texts and (music sometimes) borrowed from the past. Nevertheless Bach approaches this work with much skill in sustaining the dialogue; the curt ending to the second soprano aria,in a different key, answered immediately by the consoling Chorale is just one of several points of detail suggesting that BWV 57, despite its small forces, was not simply dashed off conceptually even though the Christmas workload remained intense.

Another very striking moment, exceptionally beautiful even for Bach, is the setting of the soprano words in Mvt. 3, "Wenn du, mein Jesu, mich nicht liebstest" (" If Thou, my Jesus, lovest me not..". A rising arcing motif in the vocal line is set against a minuet-like string arpeggio which seems to modulate so as to create a rapturous affekt. Yet the words set, being a conditional phrase, are of a possible horrendous doubt - what if Jesus doe not love me ? Bach's skill is in that the tenderness of the music affirms that indeed Jesus does love the believer; the instrumentalists as it were form a song without words in response to the "what if?" of the soprano.It is an example - a feature noted by Dürr- of Bach avoiding the obvious word-painting in favour of a conscius antipathy or disconnect between words and music.

Is Bach winding down ? Or busy writing the SMP (BWV 244)? These propositions can be doubted from a number of angles.

In the absence of text booklets at this stage we cannot be sure that there was not also performed in the morning of 26 January 1725 a preexisting Cantata for the Christmas sequence. The Lehms collection from which this text is drawn are described as "Nachmittags" or afternoon works, and scores of these texts were set by Graupner. Recent discovery of the original texts in Darmstadt analysed by Schulze set out the position as follows:

The title in full of the Lehms collection is“Gottgefälliges Kirchen=Opffer. In einem gantzen Jahr=Gange Andächtiger Betrachtungen über die gewöhnlichen Sonn= und Festtags=Texte / Gott zu Ehren und der Darmstättischen Schloß=Capelle zu seiner Früh= und Mittags=Erbauung angezündet vonM[agister] Georg Christian Lehms / Hochfürstlich Hessen=Darmstättischen Bibliothecario.“

It was published toward the end of 1711 und was primarilyintended for the Court Capellmeister of Darmstadt, Christoph Graupner. Of the 1400 cantatas by Graupner,40 of them composed between 1711 and the end of 1712 use texts from this book. Lehms’ book (in subsequent years, he published additional books for use by Graupner) contains texts for the primary church services (most likely those based on the main Epistle and Gospel readings for Sundays and Feast Days), but also texts such as those which Bach used for BWV 57 (pp.40-42 of Schulze’s book) and BWV 151. Both cantata texts in Lehms’ book carry the subtitle and/or specific designation: “Nachmittags=Andacht. Auf den andern Weynacht-Feyertag. / Jesus / Seele”. BWV 151 issimply entitled: “”Nachmittags=Andacht. Auf den dritten Weynacht=Feyertag.”

Both texts were specifically intended for the Afternoon Services only.

Schulze explains on pp. 43-44, in his discussion of BWV 64 (set to music by Bach in 1723), that the libreof this cantata was Johann Oswald Knauer,who, like Lehms, had also attended the Leipzig University and published a book of cantata texts for all Sundays and Feast Days. Johann Friedrich Fasch used most of Knauer’s cantata texts to compose a “Doppeljahrgang” (a yearly cantata cycle consisting of two different cantatas for each Sunday or Feast Day,one performed at the Early/Morning Service and the other at the Afternoon Service). When Bach composed BWV 64 in 1723, he skipped half of the movements for which Knauer had supplied texts. Thus the resulting music, one (the same) cantata, could be performed at both of the main churches of Leipzig.

Thus we find extensive interconnectivity of texts and composers in the various Cantata cycles being created at the time of Bach.It also raises the possibility that Bach was creating a double cycle for morning and afternoon use, supplementing the preexisting work with a secondary piece for afternoon use, dwelling on the other readings for the day.That idea fits for 26 December 1725 but whether the rest of the sequence confirms is for me, work in progress!

The activity of a weekly Cantata continues into the New Year such that the SMP (BWV 244) more likely began to be composed in the Lenten break or at the point where Bach borrows a set of Cantatas from his cousin, though on the precise date of commencement we have no hard evidence - Wolff is appropriately vague: sometime between 1725 and 1727.

Ed Myskowski wrote (August 24, 2007):
BWV 57 recordings

Neil Halliday wrote:
< Werner [5] fully captures the beauty of this score, with the lovely string orchestra complemented by the powerful, yet gentle and most attractive singing of Barry McDaniel. >
The Werner [5] set is relatively new to me. I agree this is an outstanding performance. I do not have any traditional comparisons available in this instance, but I look forward to some more.

< The `5^th Brandenburg' strings are most attractive in the lively major key bass aria. Once again McDaniel [5] is superb. Harnoncourt [8], Gardiner [13], and Koopman [14] seem to be `off to the races', with their fast tempos. >
I am writing mostly to point out that Leusink [12] does not share the fast tempo of Mvt. 5. The bass and soprano arias are all excellent, as well, and I find it the preferred HIP (period instrument) performance.

< I especially like the `bariolage' sections for solo violin in the attractive soprano aria. All recordings are satisfactory, though Herreweghe's soprano [11] has a vibrato that I do not find attractive. >
No question there is plenty of vibrato. I find the Mvt. 5 tempo (5:32 vs Leusink [12] at 6:40) even more of a shortcoming. With that qualification, Herreweghe [11] presents an enjoyable performance, if not quite the equal of Werner [5] or Leusink. The coupling with other Christmas cantatas, including the immediately previous BWV 110, makes a nice compilation for anyone wishing a convenient introduction to his performances, and the music.

Gardiner points out in his booklet notes [13] that the Christmas music we are presently discussing is unjustly neglected in relation to the Christmas Oratorio, BWV 248. It is new to me, very welcome.

Discussions in the Week of May 10, 2009

Francis Browne wrote (May 9, 2009):
BWV 57 Introduction

BWV 57 Selig ist der Mann : Introduction

Faute de mieux
Everybody on this list who has appreciated Kim's introductions and earlier contributions will share my regret that personal circumstances have made it too difficult for him to do the introductions for the next few weeks.

I harbour no illusions that I can match what he might do either in insight or in technology. But to avoid disruption in the weekly discussions I'm happy to fill a gap -and would-be equally happy to stand aside if any other member of the list should want to introduce any of the cantatas which are coming up .

(BWV 248/2; BWV 64; BWV 133; BWV 151; BWV 248/3)

BWV 57
There is as always, thanks to the indefatigable industry and enthusiasm of Aryeh, a wealth of information and resources about the cantata conveniently available at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV57.htm

St Stephen
This week's cantata may seem surprisingly sombre for the second day of Christmas. There is no reference at all to the birth of Christ. It is in fact a cantata for St Stephen's Day and from the very beginning is concerned with the theme of martyrdom. Previous discussions dealt thoroughly with the place of St Stephen in the Lutheran tradition, and therefore I shall not discuss the topic here. The text dates from 1711 and is by Georg Christian Lehms, the court poet of Darmstadt. The cantata was performed on 26 December 1725 It takes the form of a dialogue between Jesus and believing soul. Bach himself described the two solo parts -base and soprano - as Jesus and Anima.

There is a strong tradition in Christianity in portraying the relationship between Jesus and the believer in terms of a love story, often using erotic language and imagery. Much of the symbolism is taken from the Song of Songs and is common in many mystical writers. It is perhaps a tradition with which many people today no longer feel easily comfortable, but for our purpose what matters is that this tradition enabled Bach to write music that is close to opera with agitated recitatives and passionate arias.

Members of the list who are not familiar with this cantata will find it very worthwhile getting to know this music. This is one of those cantatas where each individual movement is excellent and contributes to a unified whole.

I have made extensive use of John Eliot Gardiner's excellent notes [13] which are available on the internet at :
http://www.solideogloria.co.uk/shop/shop_item15.asp

Mvt. 1: bass aria or arioso
This is setting of words from the Epistle of James : 'Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life' (James 1:12). As Dürr points out stephanos is the Greek word for crown, and so this alludes to Stephen, the first Christian martyr, whose fest is being celebrated.

Commentators remark that this movement is more like an extended arioso than an aria. Dürr says :

No doubt quite intentionally, the introductory ritornello lacks a firm thematic profile. And the three vocal sections that follow exhibit textual and musical correspondences that do not coincide but rather overlap:

Text: I 2 2

Music: A Al B

The dominating impression, however, is made by the expressive voice part, with its broadly swinging melodic line and its long-held notes, whose falling or rising sequence creates the effect of repose (`blessed', `crown') and enhancement tested') respectively.

John Eliot Gardiner gives a helpful description :
It begins with a weaving quaver motif after a silent beat which is passed between the top three instrumental lines and then appears in inverted form to the continuo, one detached quaver then the next four under a slur suggesting a second beat emphasis. It recurs in one voice or another in almost every bar, often in association with a hearwrenching falling chromatic figure strongly suggestive of the physical affliction of the martyr over a pedal point representing his unflinching faith in God's support. At one point Bach silences his instruments to reveal the martyr pursuing his solitary course in a measured rising scale, despite his persecutors and on the way to receiving the 'crown of life'

To give a more personal reaction : in its measured, restrained beauty this wonderful music seems to express both the sorrow and difficulties of existence and at the same time a fundamental reassurance.

( Before dismissing this as sentimental exaggeration I would ask you to listen with full attention to Barry McDaniel's performance with Fritz Werner.)

Mvt. 2: soprano recitative
The text -with a worm writhing in its blood and a lamb surrounded by a thousand [!]savage wolves -may seem today bizarre or even comic in its exaggeration, but it draws from Bach a powerful setting Dürr perceptively observes : "In accordance with the dialogue character of the text, the dramatic component is more clearly evident than in other church cantatas. This applies to, Bach's setting no less than to the libretto. The recitatives are closer to their original function in opera, namely that of advancing the plot. Each is a plain secco that forms a transition to a new affect, spaciously treated in the next! aria."

.. Again Gardiner comments:
Now we are offered another chance to savour Bach, with never an opera to his name, as the best writer of dramatic declamation (recitative in other words) since Monteverdi. The soul (soprano) responds to Jesus' words via extravagant harmonic progressions and with mixed emotion: relief at the comfort He offers, then identification with the martyr ('endless suffering in pain... [my heart] writhes like a worm in its blood') giving way to vulnerability, pathos and trepidation ('I must live like a sheep among a thousand savage wolves'

Mvt. 3: soprano aria
This moving aria is in my opinion the finest movement in the cantata. The soul makes a plea for death sooner than the withdrawal of Jesus' love. The aria is cast as a dance in C minor . Gardiner comments that it is "even slower and more sarabande-like than the preceding bass aria, and is one of those tragic triple-time dances at which Bach excelled (one has only to think of the closing choruses of both Passions). So closely woven are the clusters of expressive motifs shared between the upper three parts that it is sometimes quite hard to identify the individual lines. These are the gestures of genuinely tragic utterance and show a passing affinity to Handel's writing in the same vein ."

Again I am not ashamed to confess that when this music is well performed -as it is by Agnes Giebel with Werner and Arleen Auger with Rilling [9] - I find it inexpressibly moving:

Only I discern
Infinite passion, and the pain
Of finite hearts that yearn.

Probably I have quoted Browning's words before - and no doubt I shall do so again - but they are less inappropriate than any formulation of my own.

Mvt. 4: Bass/ Soprano recitative
In a brief dialogue Jesus reaches out his hand to the soul who accepts his 'pledge of love'

Mvt. 5: Bass aria
Gardiner imagines the good burghers of Leipzig, who were intent on celebrating Christmas, feeling great relief at the drastic change of mood in the bass aria, where Jesus,possessed of divine energy, promises to 'schlagen' the soul's enemies.

Again Gardiner's analysis is helpful : he describes this aria "If still not exactly festive, it is a show-stopping battle cry, reminiscent of the fifth Brandenburg Concerto (first movement) in the way the first violins' repeated semiquavers propel the action forwards purposefully. Thesee pass to the continuo as Jesus refers to the soul's enemies 'who always accuse you before me', and Bach finds magnificent swordslashing gestures for the upper strings to make: downward-chopping sixths and sevenths in the violins, upward-cutting diminished chords in the bass line.

Gardiner's own performance [13] is splendid here. Whereas McDaniel and Werner,for example, do their 'schlagen' decorously and with deliberation, Gardiner and Peter Harvey clearly leap on their enemies like a whirlwind and rapidly shake them to bits. A great contrast -and great fun.
(You can hear this at: http://www.solideogloria.co.uk/shop/shop_item15.asp)

Mvt. 6: Soprano /bass recitative

Mvt. 7: Soprano aria
Another powerful, operatic declamation. Again the text reads strangely today - Wohl denen , die im Sarge liegen - but as Dürr remarks : "This love of the hereafter (`Blessed are those who lie in their coffin'), with which we can scarcely sympathize any longer today, also pervades the following aria, no. 7, whose words `Swiftly I end my earthly life' are clothed by Bach in music of aching, passionate bliss. The first bars of the violin solo depict this `end' as a wild gesture of letting oneself fall into the arms of, Jesus.....In Bach's setting of the words `Mein Heiland, ich sterbe' ('My Saviour, I die' from the second half of the aria, the mystical love of Jesus and of death finds perfect artistic form such as it very seldom achieves. Logically, the aria lacks a da capo, ending in the relative major, B flat, with the question `What will You grant me?', to which the following four-part chorale, no. 8, gives the response for the Christian, faith signifies deliverance from death .

Gardiner comments :The rapturous aria (Mvt. 7) which ends this fine cantata calls for a singer with considerable acrobatic agility. It is an allegro movement in 3/8 in G minor with a fiery gypsy air for the violin obbligato, celebrating the soul's yearning to leave earthly life by means of wild gestures of abandonment - three-fold octave drops, syncopations and profligate melodic invention. The aria ends abruptly with no forewarning, no da capo and no closing ritornello, just a plain question ending with a rise of a sixth, the soul asking Jesus, 'What dost Thou give me?'. It is like a child demanding to know 'Where is my Christmas present?' - yet without petulance.

Mvt. 8: Chorale
Having arranged the sudden stop at the end of the last aria Bach answers the question by adapting Lehms text : the chorale chosen by Lehms was from the hymn Gott lob, die Stund ist kommen by Johann Heermann (1632). Instead Bach uses words of the sixth verse of the hymn Hast du denn, Jesu, dein Angesicht gänzlich verborgen-described as a `Seelengespräch mit Christo', a `Conversation of the Soul with Christ'-by Ahasverus Fritsch. The believer is promised eternal life in heaven after the pains of martyrdom).

[I have been unable to find this chorale text to translate in my usual sources. If any one has the text, I would be very grateful if they could send me a copy]

I think this alteration of the text indicates clearly that Bach conceived the cantata as a whole and carefully planned the emotional progression of the music from beginning to end.

It is idle speculation and of course we would not want to be without the works Bach did produce but a cantata such as this leaves me wondering what Bach might have produced had circumstances been different and he had the opportunity to compose operas. The whole history of the genre might have been quite different.

The rest is silence ...
Since I last introduced a cantata for the BCML the list has continued to grow and now stands at 870 -ie it has trebled in size since I first joined and it is possible to foresee the day when Aryeh can announce that membership has reached a thousand. Yet there are still only half adozen or so members who contribute regularly to the weekly discussion. Although I greatly appreciate the commitment and insight of these regular contributors, I cannot help thinking that the list would be richer if a wider range of people, some of the silent majority, joined in the discussions. If you have heard this marvellous cantata before or get to listen to it this week, or if you have performed this music, why not share your reaction with others?

(With so many new members it may be worthwhile mentioning again that it is possible to listen online in full to three recordings of BWV 57 - Rilling [9], Koopman [14] and Gardiner [13] - on Naxos Music Library. It may be worth checking if you have access in any way - my local council Liverpool cannot be the only public library which subscribes to the service )

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 10, 2009):
BWV 57 Why St. Stephen?

Francis Browne wrote:
< This week's cantata may seem surprisingly sombre for the second day of Christmas. There is no reference at all to the birth of Christ. It is in fact a cantata for St Stephen's Day and from the very beginning is concerned with the theme of martyrdom. Previous discussions dealt thoroughly with the place of St Stephen in the Lutheran tradition, and therefore I shall not discuss the topic here. >
Has there been any scholarly discussion of why Bach chose to write this cantata for St. Stephen's Day rather than the Second Day of Christmas which is celebrated by the other Dec 26 cantatas: BWV 40, BWV 121 and BWV 248/2? It's clear that in 1725 St. Stephen was commemorated not the Second Day of Christmas. Who determined which set of readings was used? Was St. Stephen celebrated on certain years and not on others? It couldn't have been Bach's choice alone as the cantata and sermon had to be linked.

It makes a huge difference for us commentators: the Stephen cantata is a Christ/Soul dialogue which springs from the account of the martyr's death, whereas the Christmas cantata take the Incarnation and and the praise of the Shepherds at Bethlehem. The two themes could not be more apposite. There's a tradition in play here that even Dürr doesn't address.

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 10, 2009):
BWV 57 Introduction (weekly discussion)

Francis Browne wrote (in conclusion):
< there are still only half a dozen or so members who contribute regularly to the weekly discussion. Although I greatly appreciate the commitment and insight of these regular contributors, I cannot help thinking that the list would be richer if a wider range of people, some of the silent majority, joined in the discussions. >
This point has been made by more than half a dozen of us (I believe, without checking the archives) from time to time! OTOH, in any given week, six folks is quite wide participation. From time to time, in my experience (three years or so), encouraging participation has had positive results, so I second (or more?) Francis entreaty.

For the ultimate beneficiary of thinking, and writing your thoughts, about the music, try a search of BCW for Browne and Apuleius, and ponder the result.

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 10, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< It makes a huge difference for us commentators: the Stephen cantata is a Christ/Soul dialogue which springs from the account of the martyr's death, whereas the Christmas cantata take the Incarnation and and the praise of the Shepherds at Bethlehem. The two themes could not be more apposite. There's a tradition in play here that even Dürr doesn't address. >
It also makes a significant difference for those of us who only ponder the issues (OK, occasional (informal) commentary): the Incarnation (with Crucifixion already predestined), and subsequent veneration of martyrdom, is not simple stuff for a 21^st C. (09 ECE) science-oriented dude (Oldish Dude, to boot) to apprehend, let alone comprehend.

I stand by my previous comment: by the second day of Christmas, the bloom of the rose is not quite so fresh as yesterday. OTOH, the entire cycle of birth, death, and rebirth, is harmonious with earlier religious traditions, as well as the 4.56 BY record of (tilted, wobbly) Earth Circuits. Ongoing, thanks be to nobody yet screwing it up completely. Not to say we should not keep trying.

Neil Halliday wrote (May 10, 2009):
Francis Browne wrote:
> BWV 57 Selig ist der Mann : Introduction <
Thanks to Francis for this introduction, and the comments on the music's emotional impact - an aspect that is sometimes ignored on this list.

Indeed the cantata might be seen, in modern terms, as a mini opera about the reconciliation of two lovers; or alternatively, listening to Rilling's fine recording [9], I imagined the music of the first movement as the funeral music of a beloved king, such is the nobility that tempers the deep sorrow.

Francis Browne wrote (May 10, 2009):
Doug Cowling wrote:
"Has there been any scholarly discussion of why Bach chose to write this cantata for St. Stephen's Day rather than the Second Day of Christmas which is celebrated by the other Dec 26 cantatas: BWV 40, BWV 121 and BWV 248/2? It's clear that in 1725 St. Stephen was commemorated not the Second Day of Christmas. Who determined which set of readings was used? Was St. Stephen celebrated on certain years and not on others? It couldn't have been Bach's choice alone as the cantata and sermon had to be linked."
The same question more or less was asked by Doug in the previous discussion:
"This appears to be the only time that Bach used the St. Stephen's Day readings as a basis for a cantata. Do we know why? Who made the decision which set of readings was used?"
The earlier discussion established that St Stephen was indeed part of the Lutheran tradition, but no reason for the choice of alternatives on this particular day in 1725 emerged from the discussion. Perhaps all we can do is conjecture that in most years the day would be celebrated as part of Christmas , but in 1725 whoever was responsible -and that could not be Bach by himself- chose the alternative . In consultation with Bach ?- no evidence seems to exist , unless we see the alteration of the last movment as a sign that Bach was actively involved and not a passive recipient of somebody else's decision. It is a very subjective argument but the quality of music in the cantata suggests to me that this was music Bach wanted to write.Perhaps having written BWV 40 and BWV 121 in previous years and being attracted by the possibilities of Lehms text -which had been available for some years- he welcomed or even suggested the choice of Saint Stephen.But all this is merely speculation. It would indeed be interesting if anyone knows of scholarly discussion of this topic.

Neil Halliday wrote (May 10, 2009):
It's interesting that Gardiner sees an affinity with Handel in the 3^rd movement; Auger (with Rilling [9]) certainly reminded me of Upshaw in Theodora's aria (which I posted to the list some time ago), specifically because of the powerful emotion of both arias. But whereas Bach's music expresses a deep longing (which implies the possibility of a positive outcome), Handel present a bleakness that is total, similar Dido's lament in Purcell's opera.

Did Bach's devotion to his God preclude him from expressing such total bleakness as we hear in the Handel and Purcell arias?

Fortunately, Bach as always wanted to convey to his listeners the advantages of a relationship with a loving God, hence the change in mood in the remainder of the cantata. This was Christmas, after all.

John Pike wrote (May 10, 2009):
[To Francis Browne, in response to his original message] Thanks, Francis, for a superb introduction and for stepping in when Kim so sadly had to pull out. I others in thanking Kim for his excellent introductions.

One of my early encounters with this cantata was during the BBC Bach Christmas Celebrations. I will never forget hearing this music coming over the air waves one morning as I was shaving before going to work. When it ended, my wife and I just looked at each other in almost total disbelief at how beautiful was the thing we had just witnessed. The cellist in my string quartet later remarked to me that he, too, had found the experience particularly extraordinary. It was probably due to a combination of factors, including the quality of the music and of the recording. The recording in question was by Helmut Winschermann, [7] on this page (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV57.htm) and I went to some length to acquire this now deleted recording. Unfortunately, it has never had quite the same impact on me since as it did on that morning. However, I look forward to listening to it again, and other recordings, this week. It is certainly a very beautiful piece of music.

Aryeh Oron wrote (May 11, 2009):
Thomas Braatz provided for this discussion a section from From Friedrich Smend’s J. S. Bach Kirchenkantaten, Berlin, 1947, V. 46:

»Nach dem Heiligen-Kalender ist der 2. Weihnachtstag dem ersten Märtyrer, Stephanus, der 3. dem Evangelisten Johannes gewidmet. Luther wollte zwar, daß diese beiden Tage stets allein als Weihnachtsfesttage gefeiert würden; die lutherische Kirche aber hat sich nicht immer und nicht überall danach gerichtet. Zu Bachs Zeit galt auch in Leipzig der 26. Dezember gelegentlich als Stephanstag: das sehen wir aus der dem 2. Weihnachtstag gewidmeten Kantate Nr. 57 „Selig ist der Mann, der die Anfechtung erduldet". Das ganze Werk bezieht sich auf das Martyrium, weihnachtliche Klänge fehlen vollständig. Ähnlich steht es mit unserer Kantate [Kantate Nr. 64 „Sehet, welch eine Liebe hat uns der Vater erzeiget"] In ihr erklingt zwar die Schlußstrophe von Luthers Weihnachtslied „Gelobet seist du, Jesu Christ" aber der Gedanke an den Evangelisten Johannes, den Apostel der Liebe, beherrscht gleichwohl das Ganze.«

[According to the calendar listing all the saints’ days, the Second Day of Christmas is dedicated to the first martyr, St. Stephen, and the Third Day of Christmas to the evangelist, St. John. To be sure, Luther did want these two days of Christmas to be celebrated only as Christmas feast days; however, the Lutheran churches did not always comply with Luther’s wishes (sich richten nach = to keep to or follow rules) in all places or at all times. In Bach’s time, also in Leipzig specifically, December 26 was occasionally celebrated as St. Stephen’s Day, as can be seen from Cantata 57 “Selig ist der Mann, der die Anfechtung erduldet” which was dedicated or devoted to the Second Day of Christmas. The entire work is related to the martyrdom of St. Stephen and any musical associations with Christmas are missing entirely. The same is true with the cantata under discussion here (Cantata BWV 64 “Sehet, welch eine Liebe hat uns der Vater erzeiget”). Yes, you can hear in this instance the final verse of Luther’s Christmas chorale “Gelobet seist du, Jesu Christ”, but the thoughts focusing on the evangelist St. John, the apostle of love, nevertheless dominate the entire work.]

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 11, 2009):
Aryeh Oron wrote:
< In Bach¹s time, also in Leipzig specifically, December 26 was occasionally celebrated as St. Stephen¹s Day, as can be seen from Cantata 57 ³Selig ist der Mann, der die Anfechtung erduldet² which was dedicated or devoted to the Second Day of Christmas. >
I asked a Lutheran historian on another list, and he was also unable to provide a rationale for the switch between St. Stephen's Day and the Second Day of Christmas. I suppose an examination of the verger's records would
list which day was celebrated during the years of Bach's tenure and might reveal a pattern.

Jean Laaninen wrote (May 13, 2009):
Francis Browne wrote:
< BWV 57 Selig ist der Mann : Introduction >
Mvt. 1
Quoting Francis: To give a more personal reaction : in its measured, restrained beauty this wonderful music seems to express both the sorrow and difficulties of existence and at the same time a fundamental reassurance.
...The depth of the first movement draws in the listener. I am always amazed after all this time at the manner in which Bach builds his contrasts from the text to his musical forms, as he does here. To the thinking mind there is always delight in the fact that Bach does not oversimplify in his process.

Mvt. 2
(Francis) The soul (soprano) responds to Jesus' words via extravagant harmonic progressions and with mixed emotion: ...
....Here again Bach continues the elements that pull within, simply and beautifully, continuing to draw in the listener.

Mvt. 3: The underlying rhythm in this movement reminds me of a heart beat. This is another indicator for me of the intensity of the emotion of love of the soul and the desire to please Jesus.

Mvt. 5
I love this aria, and the power of it. Martyrdom is something we don't know a lot about in this day and age--a topic we'd most likely have trouble seeing having any point in this day and age for many, and yet as Bach tells the story through notes and words there is an up side to the whole matter. The da capo feature of this movement makes a nice reinforcement. It simply wants the listener to dance within, if not without.

Mvt. 7
I love the uplifting scalar passages and Auger's interpretation in the Rilling edition. These bespeak hope to my mind.

Mvt. 8
A well known chorale, even today, brings this work to completion with a quality of reassurance.

Thanks Francis for informing us so that we can listen better.

Neil Halliday wrote (May 13, 2009):
John Pike wrote:
>Unfortunately, it has never had quite the same impact on me since as it did on that morning.<
Changing impressions are difficult to explain, sometimes.

Take three period SMP's I have heard.

Listening now (via the CD) to Butt's SMP, I find the interminable recitative to be completely boring, because of the uniformly gentle tap of the short accompaniment - no variety in expression at all. OTOH, I recall being impressed by Mc'Creesh's recitatives, but I'm not sure I want to check that impression right now (I don't have the CD).

Butt's chorales seem uniformly quick and expressionless, whereas I recall being impressed by Veldhoven's SMP chorales.

Butt's "Give me back my Jesus" comes accross like a quick, happy little dance, period - absolutely no demanding or desperation.

Overall impression: a work of small stature, totally reversing my impression of the recording from the amazon samples. Maybe a different impression is possible on another day.

Francis Browne wrote (May 13, 2009):
BWV 57: Mvt. 3

Neil Halliday wrote:
". whereas Bach's music expresses a deep longing (which implies the possibility of a positive outcome), Handel present a bleakness that is total, similar Dido's lament in Purcell's opera.
Did Bach's devotion to his God preclude him from expressing such total bleakness as we hear in the Handel and Purcell arias?"
When I read Neil's words, I remembered a remark made by a member of the choir in the documentary about John Eliot Gardiner's Bach pilgrimage to the general effect that living intensely with Bach's music for a year he found that whatever the mood he might be feeling there was some music of Bach which gave expression to that feeling.

But where does Bach express complete despair? I have in mind the sort of utterly bleak outlook to be found in - to add to Neil's examples - the final song of Schubert 's Winterreise, Der Leiermann or the final movement of fourth Symphony of Sibelius .Certainly Bach expresses sorrow and suffering - eg out of so many- Erbarme dich or the final chorus from the SMP- and the opening chorus of BWV 20 expresses fear of damnation very forcefully, but not despair as such.

But in all the depiction of sorrow and suffering I can think of in Bach -besides the beauty of the music -there is always an element of prayer and supplication which means there is a counterpoise to the suffering and what else might be despair.

I suspect Neil is right but I wonder if anyone can suggest music where Bach expresses unmitigated despair.

Peter Smaill wrote (May 13, 2009):
Francis Browne wrote:
"Can anyone suggest music where Bach expresses unmitigated despair?" is an very interesting question.

Until the very last bars of BWV 48/1, "Ich elender Mensch", Bach sets the words "O miserable man that I am, who will release me from Death?" to a profoundly sombre, even grim, funeral march. But at the end , even though the vocal line slows by way of an almost excruciating augmentation, a solitary trumpet enters as if to answer the question from another world. It is at once the most harrowing and the most exhilirating settings of all Bach's many reflections on Death. But even here the gloom is arguably ?relieved by virtue of this interpretation.

Neil Halliday wrote (May 14, 2009):
Peter Smaill wrote:
>Until the very last bars of BWV 48/1, "Ich elender Mensch", Bach sets the words "O miserable man that I am, who will release me from Death?" to a profoundly sombre, even grim, funeral march.<
Yes, this chorus is a powerful expression of despair, especially in the Suzuki and Gardiner examples; both are 'adagio's around 5.55 min. [Rilling's fast tempo (4.09) sucks the emotion out of the piece, in contrast to his 75/3 where Rilling/Auger have one of the strongly emotional examples].

Thanks for mentioning this chorus.

As far as arias are concerned, BWV 114/2 "Where will in this vale of tears", in the outer sections, comes close to expressing total despair (Rilling/Equiluz, 9.05), though the sheer beauty of the music transcends the despair (like "Erbarme dich"), and the mood of the central section changes with the promise of Jesus' assistance.

Hmmm. Now I'm not sure if conclusions - whether Bach has expresssed the total despair that some other composers have expressed in music - can be drawn one way or another.

John Pike wrote (May 14, 2009):
Francis Browne wrote:
"Again I am not ashamed to confess that when this music is well performed -as it is by Agnes Giebel with Werner and Arleen Auger with Rilling - I find it inexpressibly moving:
Only I discern
Infinite passion, and the pain
Of finite hearts that yearn.
Probably I have quoted Browning's words before - and no doubt I shall do so again - but they are less inappropriate than any formulation of my own."
And while on the subject of poets and despair, I wonder how Bach would have set these lines by that great poet and troubled Catholic priest Gerard Manley Hopkins:

NO worst, there is none. Pitched past pitch of grief,
More pangs will, schooled at forepangs, wilder wring.
Comforter, where, where is your comforting?
Mary, mother of us, where is your relief?
My cries heave, herds-long; huddle in a main, a chief 5
Woe, world-sorrow; on an age-old anvil wince and sing-
Then lull, then leave off. Fury had shrieked 'No ling-
ering! Let me be fell: force I must be brief'.

O the mind, mind has mountains; cliffs of fall
Frightful, sheer, no-man-fathomed. Hold them cheap 10
May who ne'er hung there. Nor does long our small
Durance deal with that steep or deep. Here! creep,
Wretch, under a comfort serves in a whirlwind: all
Life death does end and each day dies with sleep.

Francis Browne wrote (May 14, 2009):
BWV 57: Bach and despair

John asked how Bach would have set one of Hopkins' sonnets of desolation. I find it impossible even to imagine. Circumstances sometimes meant that I have translated a canata text without having heard the music. When that happened I would try to imagine how Bach might set the words - but invariably when I came to listen to the music I would find .Bach's setting would show imagination and insight utterly beyond anything I could conceive.

For that reason it is impossible to know what Bach would have made of Hopkins, but I think also that Hopkins' distinctive style, his wrenching English by force is quite unlike any Bach text I have ever come across. It simply does not lend itself to being set to music -has any composer ever done so?

But John's questions set me thinking about how Bach might have set a poem nearer to his time (1774) and one that I have often regarded as the saddest, most despairing poem in English - the sapphics that William Cowper wrote in his insanity :

Hatred and vengeance, my eternal portion,
Scarce can endure delay of execution,
Wait, with impatient readiness, to seize my
Soul in a moment.

Damned below Judas:more abhorred than he was,
Who for a few pence sold his holy Master.
Twice betrayed Jesus me, this last delinquent,
Deems the profanest.

Man disavows, and Deity disowns me:
Hell might afford my miseries a shelter;
Therefore hell keeps her ever hungry mouths all
Bolted against me.

Hard lot! encompassed with a thousand dangers;
Weary, faint, trembling with a thousand terrors;
I'm called, if vanquished, to receive a sentence
Worse than Abiram's.

Him the vindictive rod of angry justice
Sent quick and howling to the center headlong;
I, fed with judgment, in a fleshly tomb, am
Buried above ground.

I wonder also what music Bach might have made of Andreas Gryphius' despairing view of Germany during the Thirty Years War :

Wir sind doch nunmehr ganz, ja mehr denn ganz verheeret!
Der frechen Völker Schar, die rasende Posaun
Das vom Blut fette Schwert, die donnernde Karthaun
Hat aller Schweiß, und Fleiß, und Vorrat aufgezehret.
Die Türme stehn in Glut, die Kirch' ist umgekehret.
Das Rathaus liegt im Graus, die Starken sind zerhaun,
Die Jungfern sind geschänd't, und wo wir hin nur schaun
Ist Feuer, Pest, und Tod, der Herz und Geist durchfähret.
Hier durch die Schanz und Stadt rinnt allzeit frisches Blut.
Dreimal sind schon sechs Jahr, als unser Ströme Flut
Von Leichen fast verstopft, sich langsam fort gedrungen.
Doch schweig ich noch von dem, was ärger als der Tod,
Was grimmer denn die Pest, und Glut und Hungersnot,
Daß auch der Seelen Schatz so vielen abgezwungen.

(WE are now wholly - nay more than wholly - devastated! The band of presumptuous nations, the blaring trumpet, the sword greasy with blood, the thundering cannon have consumed everyone's sweat and industry and provisions. The towers are on fire, the church is cast down, the town hall lies in ruins, the strong are maimed, the virgins raped, and wherever we look there is [nothing but] fire, plague, and death that pierces heart and mind. Here through the bulwarks and the town ever-fresh blood is running. Three times six years ago the water of our rivers slowly found its way past the corpses that almost blocked it; but I will say nothing of what is worse than death itself, more dreadful than the plague and fire and famine - that so many have been despoiled of the treasure of the soul.

Penguin Book of German Verse)

But I have long supected that poems of real literary merit are rarely set successfully to music- they do not need it- and it is often poems that by themselves are second rate that are enhanced by being set to music -see the song cycles by Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Mahler -and -alas! -the texts of most cantatas.

Many thanks to Neil and Peter for their interesting examples of Bach's music expressing despair and perceptive comments.

(If anyone finds this thread too depressing, I suggest they might listen to the sinfonia and alto aria from next week's cantata :they are consolation for many sorrows)

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (May 14, 2009):
[To Francis Browne] I will just disagree with you on this

"But I have long supected that poems of real literary merit are set successfully to music- they do not need it- and it is often poems that by themselves are second rate that are enhanced by being set to music"
Debussy, Fauré and Poulenc have composed marvelous music on poems of real literary merit (Ronsard, Mallarmé, Appolinaire, Baudelaire, Verlaine, Eluard, Max Jacob, ...).

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 15, 2009):
Francis Browne wrote:
< For that reason it is impossible to know what Bach would have made of Hopkins, but I think also that Hopkins' distinctive style, his wrenching English by force is quite unlike any Bach text I have ever come across. It simply does not lend itself to being set to music -has any composer ever done so? >
The Cantata Singers of Boston recently (May 8, 2009) performed a Britten radio cantata from 1937, and a premier, commissioned composition by Andy Vores. The Vores text includes the Hopkins poem Pied Beauty, and the program notes suggest that the text to the Britten, assembled by Richard Robert Ellis, also includes Hopkins, altough I do not see a specific citation.

I agree that Hopkins style is distinctive (unique?!), wrenching English, but some of the texts Bach set are also quite wrenching, as well. For example, Todenschweiss is imprinted on my memory, chilling my every pore.

Therese wrote (in reply to Francis);
< I will just disagree with you on this
<< But I have long suspected that poems of real literary merit are rarely set successfully to music- they do not need it- and it is often poems that by themselves are second rate that are enhanced by being set to music" >>
< Debussy, Fauré and Poulenc have composed marvelous music on poems of real literary merit (Ronsard, Mallarmé, Appolinaire, Baudelaire, Verlaine, Eluard, Max Jacob, ...). >
I see Francis point, in considering all the mediocre texts (not least some of those set by Bach) that have achieved immortality by piggy-backing the music. I agree with Therese that the counter examples are numerous. One of my favorites:
Walt Whitman, When Lilacs last in Dooryard Bloomed, set by Roger Sessions

Giving the sideways carets in the thread my very best effort,

Francis Browne wrote (May 15, 2009):
BWV 57: alchemy (was: Bach and Despair)

Thérèse Hanquet wrote :
"Debussy, Fauré and Poulenc have composed marvelous music on poems of real literary merit ."
There is not strictly a contradiction between this and my statement that poems of real literary merit is are rarely set successfully to music But Therese of course is making a perfectly valid point , which I can fully understand. One could add that there are excellent settings of Goethe, Heine and Schiller and other good poets among the songs of Schubert, Schumann and Brahms.

But among the 700 +lieder of Schubert, 246 of Schumann and 213 of Brahms how many of the texts would be read today without the music? I do not know the songs of Debussy and Poulenc well, but I have greatly enjoyed hearing Elly Ameling and Gerard Souzay singing the songs of Faure - and yet I would be surprised if poets set by Faure such as Charles Grandmougin, Charles van Leberghe, Baronne Renee de Brimont and Jean de la Ville de Mirmont are still widely read.

But what I had in mind particularly -pardon my insularity! - was the contrast between the immense riches of English poetry and the paucity of successful settings of the best poetry. It may be my ignorance but I feel I have to scrape around for examples: Handel (Milton's L'Allegro and Il Penseroso, Dryden Ode on Saint Cecilia's Day) some of the settings by Vaughan Williams, Britten and Finzi - but they often succeed best with minor poetry ;a few songs by Barber......

To return to Bach: the experience of translating all the cantatas leads me to the conclusion that the géneral level of literary excellence of the cantata texts is not high, and with some of the secular cantatas it seems abysmal : trying to translate such texts into reasonable English was a truly penitential task.

Yet out of such dross Bach so often makes gold.

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (May 15, 2009):
Francis Browne wrote:
< [...] I do not know the songs of Debussy and Poulenc well, but I have greatly enjoyed hearing Elly Ameling and Gerard Souzay singing the songs of Faure -and yet I would be surprised if poets set by Faure such as Charles Grandmougin, Charles van Leberghe, Baronne Renee de Brimont and Jean de la Ville de Mirmont are still widely read. >
You sure got a point there, I never read one poem of those poets you mention before listening to Faure...

What I did not agree with was the "rarely" in your sentence ("But I have long supected that poems of real literary merit are rarely set successfully to music").

Of course it depends how you define "rarely"... In the CD of Mélodies of Fauré sung by Barbara Hendricks, more than half of the texts are by poets which we studied in high school (I agree that does not make them all first rate! but still...).

As far as I can judge, Poulenc and Debussy generally chose beautiful texts to set in music, most of them by known poets or writers, and in a range of different moods (I love Jean Nohain's hilarious text "Nous voulons une
petite soeur" for Poulenc!).

I also agree with you about the texts of many secular cantatas... Bach had merit to do what he did!

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 15, 2009):
Francis Browne wrote:
< To return to Bach: the experience of translating all the cantatas leads me to the conclusion that the géneral level of literary excellence of the cantata texts is not high, and with some of the secular cantatas it seems abysmal: trying to translate such texts into reasonable English was a truly penitential task. >
It's interesting that we still feel compelled to rank poetry as good or bad, rather than viewing it as an historical artifact. A hundred years ago, Tennyson was idolized and anthologized for innumerable pupils to recite. Today he barely squeaks into college histories of poetry.

So too with the Bach librettos. Why do commentators feel obliged to sniff at the cantatas, reserving special opprobrium for the secular texts? In fact, the pastoral poetry of a work like "Phoebus and Pan" would probably be held in higher esteem today by students of 18th century literature than all the church cantatas put together.

Let's be blunt about the facts. Bach chose the texts himself, often working with the poets personally to create the libretti. They were texts which expressed his deepest philosophical and artistic ideas: he was "inspired" by them, to use a Romantic term.

He was an artist shaped by his historical context, and there is little to be gained by scouring his works to find existential angst and despair and thus assert his "modernity."

He's Bach not Camus.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 15, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< It's interesting that we still feel compelled to rank poetry as good or bad, rather than viewing it as an historical artifact. A hundred years ago, Tennyson was idolized and anthologized for innumerable pupils to recite. Today he barely squeaks into college histories of poetry. >
The very can be said about baroque music I suppose, with Bach's peers always coming out the poorer for the result? I believe Tennsyson was pretty much a staple until very recently (Robert and John Kennedy quote him in their speeches); Tennsyson was certainly required reading in my high school and college.

< So too with the Bach librettos. Why do commentators feel obliged to sniff at the cantatas, reserving special opprobrium for the secular texts? In fact, the pastoral poetry of a work like "Phoebus and Pan" would probably be held in higher esteem today by students of 18^th centuryliterature than all the church cantatas put together. >
Over Klopstock? Really?

Graupner's secular cantata texts are pretty bad, for what its worth Francis, but if you wish, I can send you some PDFs of the SACRED cantatas though!

Interesting thread ;)

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 16, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< He [Bach] was an artist shaped by his historical context, and there is little to be gained by scouring his works to find existential angst and despair and thus assert his "modernity." >
It is not so much seeking his modernity (this is in fact the first mention of that descriptor?), as seeking the universality of the human condition, which cuts across big chunks of space and time. Big, that is, from the human, not geologic perspective, I hasten to point out. We are the only critters who are aware (as best we can tell) of the inevitability of the death of the body.

Statements of what might survive from that body (mine, and yours) are indeed as much a matter of alchemy as theology. For a wonderful description of the need for Purgatory, once we have invented Heaven and Hell, I highly recommend the early chapters in <Last Things: Death and the Apocalypse in the Middle Ages>, ed. Caroline Walker Bynum and Paul Freedman, especially the paper by Peter Brown: <The Decline of the Empire of God: Amnesty, Penance, and the Afterlife from Late Antiquity to the Middle Ages.>

Academics, even the best of them, are not noted for catchy titles? Rather than <Bach and despair>, I would suggest <Bach, the optimist>. Always finding a little wiggle room toward eternal bliss, no mater how bleak the immediate, Earthly, prospects. Todenschweiss, indeed!

DC
>Let's be blunt about the facts. Bach chose the texts himself, <
EM
Do we know this as fact, or even generally accepted scholarely opinion?

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 17, 2009):
BWV 57 Introduction (Bach and despair)

John Pike wrote:
< And while on the subject of poets and despair, I wonder how Bach would have set these lines by that great poet and troubled Catholic priest Gerard Manley Hopkins >
I am curious as to the source, that Hopkins was troubled. The same description occurs in the program notes to the Cantata Singers concert I recently referenced. Andy Vores describes Hopkins as a troubled Jesuit priest, in notes to his new composition (Natural Selection, just what that implies).

Is there biographic detail which confirms that Hopkins was troubled, or is that a euphemism for a personal characteristic which is not compatible with the priestly image? I did not turn up any dirt, on a quick google. Not exactly relevant, but just to head-off any specualtion: I have many Jesuit friends, via academic affiliations. Some are less troubled than others; all are intellectually precise, and all have treated me with spiritual respect. That respect is mutual, and spontaneous.

As to Francis accurate description of Hopkins language as wrenching, indeed it is. So is Bach's language, at its best. So is any language which looks deeply into the human condition (we know we are not immortal, as constructed for Earth - flesh is passing). What endures?

The Hopkins poem Andy Vores set is <Pied Beauty>, which begins:

<Glory be to God for dappled things -
For skies of couple-colour as a brinded cow,
For rose-moles all in stipple upon trout that swim>

I speculate, imagine, that Bach would have loved the opportunity to set those words. I doubt that Hopkins was much troubled when he wrote them (but who of us know, with certainty?).

A bit (but only a bit) OT, I would also suggest the poetry of the (late) Bill Holm, recommended on these pages (and to me off-list) by Paul Farseth. Especially <Playing the Black Piano>, with respect to death and despair/humor. It is no small irony that Bill passed away after Paul recommended his words to us, but before I got around to following up.

The language is powerful: concise, precise, eloquent, and with a unique sense of humor. Informal and elegant simultaneously. Perhaps some future (or present?) Bach will set a few words to music? Even a Coltrane would suffice. If we should be so blessed, yet again.

John Pike wrote (May 17, 2009):
Now OT (Was Bach and despair)

[To Ed Myskowski] Thanks, Ed. I really enjoyed reading your e mail.

There are several poems by Hopkins that do suggest a very tormented mind. I have never studied English formally beyond the age of 16 but I always enjoyed reading Hopkins's marvellous poetry while a medical student, particularly poems such as the one you mentioned. I get the impression that his faith contributed to the torment he felt in his mind but I couldn't give any hard information on exactly why. Maybe he struggled to cope with feelings of sinfulness that many deeply committed Christians feel.

My original e mail was not meant in all seriousness, but I do think Bach would have made a very good job of setting poetry of such distinction to music.

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 18, 2009):
Bach and texts (was Now OT)

In order to avoid the jeapordy of continuing an OT thread, I have chosen a new subject line. I will be brief, in any case.

I appreciate John's response to my post, re the poetry of Gerard Manley Hopkins and Bill Holm, which was itself partly a response to Francis original mention of Hopkins. That was about the time when he referred to the task of translating Bachs texts as penitential. Francis has certainly earned my indulgences, and I was releieved to find that I am not alone in finding some of the poetry Bach set less (much less!) than poetic. Whether or not he was, indeed, responsible for the texts in most cases, seems to me to be an important (or at least interesting) and unresolved question.

I thought to simply let the thread expire, but as part of a radio program of complete Bob Dylan, I heard, from: [Come in She Said, I'll Give You] Shelter from the Storm:
<She promised me salvation, but she gave me a lethal dose>

Perhaps a drug reference, or a religious reference? Not always easy for me to distinguish, with certainty. The ambiguity is arguably intentional.

Because the Dylan radio show is arranged alphabetically (a unique approcah), Simple Twist of Fate soon followed, as I write. No question as to whether Dylan chose his own texts! His musical genius remains to be tested by time. Exactly the oppostite of our position re Bach.

John Pike wrote (May 19, 2009):
[To Ed Myskowski] Dylan is a master librettist. I just love those songs you mentioned.

I also love those lines that begin "I started off on Burgundy and then I hit the harder stuff"

Jean Laaninen wrote (May 19, 2009):
BWV 57: alchemy (was Bach and Desspair)

Francis Browne wrote:
< But among the 700 +lieder of Schubert, 246 of Schumann and 213 of Brahms how many of the texts would be read today without the music? I do not know the songs of Debussy and Poulenc well, but I have greatly enjoyed hearing Elly Ameling and Gerard Souzay singing the songs of Faure -and yet I would be surprised if poets set by Faure such as Charles Grandmougin, Charles van Leberghe, Baronne Renee de Brimont and Jean de la Ville de Mirmont are still widely read. >
---I am inclined to agree with Francis that the French poets are probably not widely read--at least among people I know. Among my music friends who love the French Art Song (I am included) I have friends who own the books of poetry (I do), but only during one year have I given these older poems much time. However, when the music is added, the richness is allowed to come out, and for those of us who love the recital venue there is an excitement to be found.

Bach certainly worked with texts that had meaning, and with those that did not as much, but his glorious ability to imbue the words with emotion as Francis suggests, did create gold.

Cantata BWV 57: Complete Recordings | Recordings of Individual Movements | Discussions

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Last update: ýJune 2, 2009 ý14:55:17