Cantata BWV 191 - Discussions

Cantata BWV 191
Gloria in excelsis Deo
Discussions

Cantata BWV 191

John Welch wrote (December 21, 2000):
I joined this list when I was invited over from the Bach list some months ago, but have not ventured to write anything yet, so here goes. I have been interested in serious music since I was very young, my father played the violin and used to practice 2hrs every day, he also taught violin at a local school, so I got a good grounding especially in string trios and quartets.

The first Bach I heard were the Brandenburg Concertos on '78 rpm records, and I was smitten.

Over the last year I have been listening to the Teldec Cantatas from a set at my local music library, and recording them onto Minidisc, I thought they were obsolete CD's, but now I see that they are being reissued, which is wonderful. I have a small problem though, BWV 191 is not amongst the Cantata Vols. it is missed out, it starts "Gloria in excelsis Deo". It seems that there are 12 Vols of the Teldec Bach series, does anyone know where BWV 191 is?.

I have been listening today to the Christmas Oratorio (BWV 248) on the Archiv label with Karl Richter and the Münchener Bach Choir, It is the best version I have heard he gets the Baroque sound just right. I love the the Chorus"Ehre sei dir, Gott" "Glory be to thee, oh God". It has a wonderful happy sound to it. It is difficult to describe the effect it has on me, does anybody else feel this effect at this chorus?

I have also been listening to the 6 Violin Sonatas, Monica Huggett and Ton Koopman, who really looks the part on the cover of the Phillips CD, with his long hair and beard. It is a wonderful CD, I like Bach on original instruments if possible, and I love the sound of the old Harpsichords and copies of old ones, I don't think Bach sounds right on a modern piano at all.

On BBC TV recently they have been playing the 48 Preludes on a Steinway grand, most of them were played by Garilov who made them sound very romantic.

It is very enjoyable to read all your mails and different opinions. Hope you all have a Happy Christmas, with plenty of CD presents!. .

Kirk McElhearn wrote (December 21, 2000):
John Welch said:
< Over the last year I have been listening to the Teldec Cantatas from a set at my local music library, and recording them onto Minidisc, I thought they were obsolete cd's, but now I see that they are being reissued, which is wonderful. >
This set was rereleased already several years ago. I bought it when it was first released in a box set, at what may seem expensive, but the price came out to just a few dollars per CD. Given the cost of blank minidiscs, you might try to save up for the set.

BWV 191

John Welch wrote (February 16, 2001):
[To Aryeh Oron] Aryeh, I have been looking at your Bach Cantata site, it is very useful and informative and so well laid out, but one thing I can't understand is, where is BWV 191 "Gloria in excelsis Deo"?. It is also missed out on the Teldec set.

Armagan Ekici wrote (February 16, 2001):
[To John Welch] It is within BWV 232 :-)

Aryeh Oron wrote (February 16, 2001):
[To John Welch] Thanks for your kind words. Cantata BWV 191 has simply not yet discussed yet in our group in the weekly cantata discussions. We have already discussed 63 cantatas so far and the plan is to discuss all of them during the coming 3 years. Because BWV 191 was composed for Christmas Day most probable that it will be discussed around that day. You are right in assuming that this cantata was not originally recorded by H&L in their cantata cycle for Teldec. In the Teldec Bach-2000 this cantata is included in Box 5 together with the secular cantatas and some other cantatas which H&L omitted from their original cycle. It is conducted by Ton Koopman and borrowed from his cantata cycle for Erato (in which it has not been printed yet!). BTW, Pieter Jan Leusink has also not included this cantata in his cantata cycle for Brilliant Classics. You can find a table of all the cantatas by major conductors according to BWV number in the following page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Performers/Recordings-Table.htm

BTW, you are invited to contribute to the weekly cantata discussions. The order of discussion is in the followng page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Order.htm

Pablo Fagoaga wrote (February 17, 2001):
[To Aryeh Oron] Reading your comments regarding BWV 191's inclusion/exclusion, I'm trying to figure out why H&L skipped BWV 191 in their "sacred" cycle.

First thing that comes to my mind as a posibility is that while formally a cantata, BWV 191's text corresponds to a mass (even with musical parody of Mass in B minor (BWV 232)), so probably they thought of it more like a mass.

My idea cracks when it comes to understand why, in Bach 2000 set, they included it among secular cantatas and not with masses, passions, etc. It´s clearly a religious text, and they seem to consider it a cantata NOW. Does anyone got a clue ???

I know this can be considered a little "manic" issue, but I think that anyone how buys a suitcase full of Bach CDs, has to admit being a little maniac about it!!

Aryeh Oron wrote (February 17, 2001):
[To Pablo Fagoaga] Cantata BWV 191 has a special position among the oeuvre of Bach Cantatas. I shall quote from W. Murray Young book 'The Cantatas of J.S. Bach - An Analytical Guide':
"This is Bach's only sacred cantata with the text not in German. It has only 3 numbers, all of which were included when Bach expanded the work into the Mass in B minor (BWV 232). The 3 movements of the cantata correspond to the opening chorus of the Gloria, the Domine Deus and the Cum Sancto Spiritu movements in the B minor Mass (BWV 232). This Missa cantata was for Christmas Day, probably 1733, following its first performance, 21 April 1733, the celebrate the new ruler, Friedrich Augustus III, on his visit to Leipzig to accept the town's oath of allegiance. (Skip) Since the music of the Mass is identical with that of the corresponding cantata movements, a detailed analysis should not be necessary beyond a translation of the Latin texts."

So, why did H & L not include this cantata in their original cycle? I do not have any evidence, but I believe that the answer is simple. They were in a hurry to complete their cycle, which was originally planned to be finished by 1985 (300 years to Bach's birth), Rilling's complete cantata cycle was already on the market and the record company most probably put a big pressure on them to finish their Gargantuan task. What I do not understand is why did the decide to re-record BWV 197. Harnoncourt had recorded this cantata in the late 1960's before the complete cantata cycle was launched. They had already used BWV 83 from the same LP in their cycle (BTW, this cantata was reviewd in our group only two weeks ago). In the complete cycle the task of recording this cantata was given to Leonhardt. They could save time by using the earlier Harnoncourt's recording and use the saved time to record the missing cantatas!

BWV 191 is not exactly sacred and not exactly secular and it somehow falls between the chairs. Although Vol. 5 of Bach-2000 Edition from Teldec is called Secular Cantatas, it can be seen as a complementary Volume to the previous Editions of the sacred cantatas. Volumes 1-4 of Bach-2000 (4 X 15-CD's) were direct duplication of the previous 10 Volumes edition (10 X 6-CD's). Teldec were clever enough to propose a complete Bach-2000 without the cantatas for those who had already the previous editions of the sacred cantatas (the first CD Edition included 47 volumes (1 or 2 CD's in each) and was a direct reissue of the original LP Edition).

I hope that I feeded somehow your understandable 'maniac' curiousity!

Discussions in the Week of December 23, 2001

Aryeh Oron wrote (December 20, 2001):
BW191 - List of Recordings

The subject of next week's discussion (December 23, 2001) is Cantata BWV 191. This is the first in Vicente Vida's proposed list of cantatas for discussion. After the immensly popular BWV 147 which is still discussed this week, we have a strange and somewhat esoteric affair. This is the only Bach's sacred cantata with text not in German, but in Latin. It has only three movements, all of which were included when Bach expanded the work into the Mass in B minor (BWV 232). In order to allow the members of the BCML preparing themselves for the discussion, I compiled a list of the recordings of this cantata (sometimes called simply 'Latin Music'). I put the details of the recordings in the following page of the Bach Cantatas Website: Cantata BWV 191 - Recordings

There is also a link to this page from the Home Page of the Bach Cantatas Website http://www.bach-cantatas.com/ (in the middle of the right side), and from the page 'Cantatas - Index to Recordings & Discussions': http://www.bach-cantatas.com/IndexBWV.htm

All of these recordings are available in CD form. If anybody is aware of a recording of this cantata not listed in the page of recordings, please inform me and send the relevant details, so that I shall be able to update the page.

I hope to see many of you participating in the discussion.

Kirk McElhearn wrote (December 20, 2001):
I notice, when I go to Aryeh's lists of recordings, that for the Koopman cantatas he has a cover of a Teldec box. Did Teldec include the Koopman cantatas in the complete set? I thought they only have the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt cantatas? Maybe are some of them in the complete set by Koopman?

Aryeh Oron wrote (December 21, 2001):
[To Kirk McElhearn] For various reasons the original set of Sacred Bach Cantatas recorded by H&L for Teldec did not include all the cantatas. When Teldec issued last year the Complete Bach-2000 set, they included in the 5^th box not only the secular cantatas, but also the missing sacred ones. All the missing sacred cantatas and most of the secular ones were taken from Koopman's cantata cycle for Erato. Some of which have not been issued yet in the frame of the Erato cycle. You can see a list of the cantatas recorded by Koopman and included in this set in the page dedicated to recordings of Bach Cantatas by Koopman [O-1] of the Bach Cantatas Website: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Performers/Koopman-Rec3.htm

Kirk McElhearn wrote (December 21, 2001):
[To Aryeh Oron] Thanks for the info.

Dick Wursten wrote (December 20, 2001):
[To Aryeh Oron] Question: When is it allowed to call a cantatas-edition 'complete' ?

Reason for this question: Where can I find BWV191 in the 'complete cantata edition' of Brilliant Classics...

Jan Hendrik van Oers wrote (Decmber 21, 2001):
[To Dick Wursten] I searched yesterday-evening through the whole collection and i couldn't find it (also with the use of the index booklet). Aryeh and you where also not able to find it. So the Bach Edition of Brilliant Classics seems to be not complete.

Kirk McElhearn wrote (December 21, 2001):
[To Dick Wursten] It's not included in the BC set.

Dick Wursten wrote (December 21, 2001):
Can someone give me advice whether or not to buy Brilliant Classics Vocal Works (2 boxes) containing the other vocal works (BWV 191 ??). I remember that it included the H-moll Messe, Oratoria etc.. some works performed by Harry Christophers and the sixteen (whom I liked in some CDs when they performed other music) and some with Flämig and Leusink and others...

Kirk McElhearn wrote (December 22, 2001):
[To Dick Wursten] The SMP and SJP by the Sixteen are very good. The secular cantatas by Schreier are fine, and much of the rest is fine as well. I would recommend it, with the usual caveat that you may be disappointed by some parts of it.

Aryeh Oron wrote (December 25, 2001):
Introduction

The subject of this week's discussion (December 23, 2001) is Cantata BWV 191. This is the first in Vicente Vida's proposed list of cantatas for discussion. After the immensely popular BWV 147, which is still discussed this week, we have a strange and somewhat esoteric affair. This is the only Bach's sacred cantata with text not in German, but in Latin. It has only three movements, all of which were included when Bach expanded the work into the Mass in B minor (BWV 232). In order to allow the members of the BCML preparing themselves for the discussion, I compiled a list of the recordings of this cantata (sometimes called simply 'Latin Music'). I put the details of the recordings in the following page of the Bach Cantatas Website: Cantata BWV 191 - Recordings

All of these recordings are available in CD form. If anybody is aware of a recording of this cantata not listed in the page of recordings, please inform me and send the relevant details, so that I shall be able to update the page.

I hope to see many of you participating in the discussion.

Background - what comes first, the chicken or the egg?

I have tried to find out what comes first, the chicken or the egg? In other words, the Mass in B minor (BWV 232) or Cantata BWV 191. Here is what I have found in the resources at my disposal.

G. Gillies Whittaker (The Cantatas of Johann Sebastian Bach, 1959):
“BWV 191 is an exceptional case and the only cantata not in the vernacular. No year of the Christmas Day for which it was prepared is ascertainable, and no reason for this departure from the normal… Here again one wonders why Bach took such immense trouble over rearrangement and why he did not write original music, in this case to an inviting text. Think of the enormous labour of writing out of this score for a single cantata, 56 pages of 17 staves and 6 pages of 21 staves in the BGS!”

W. Murray Young ('The Cantatas of J.S. Bach - An Analytical Guide', 1989):
"This is Bach's only sacred cantata with the text not in German. It has only 3 numbers, all of which were included when Bach expanded the work into the Mass in B minor (BWV 232). The 3 movements of the cantata correspond to the opening chorus of the Gloria, the Domine Deus and the Cum Sancto Spiritu movements in the B minor Mass (BWV 232). This Missa cantata was for Christmas Day, probably 1733, following its first performance, 21 April 1733, the celebrate the new ruler, Friedrich Augustus III, on his visit to Leipzig to accept the town's oath of allegiance. The Gospel, Luke 2: 1-14, provides the text in its fourteenth verse for the opening chorus, and the Doxology provides the remainder. Since the music of the Mass (BWV 232) is identical with that of the corresponding cantata movements, a detailed analysis should not be necessary beyond a translation of the Latin texts."

Hans-Günther Ottenberg (Liner notes to the Dresden Classics’ recording, 1995):
“Gloria in excelsis Deo BWV 191 is full of riddles. When was it composed? Where exactly does it fit into Bach’s Latin Church music? For what purpose was it written? These questions can only be answered in part. The score of the Gloria bears the inscription Testo Nativiti Xsti, which places the probable date of composition in the Christmas season of the years 1743 to 1746. However, the use of a Latin text makes it highly unlikely that the work was performed within the framework of the normal liturgy in Leipzig. Alfred Dürr assumes that it was performed at the University Church in Leipzig on the occasion of the Treaty of Dresden on December 25, 1745, although there is no evidence tosupport this.”

Wolfgang Marx (Liner notes to the Teldec’s recording, 2000):
“We do not know when Bach wrote Cantata BWV 191, or for what purpose it was intended. The words, which combine lines from the second book of St. Luke’s Gospel with the Gloria Patri or lesser Doxology, clearly suggest the principal service on Christmas Day, but the performance of Latin cantatas was extremely unusual in Leipzig in Bach’s time, and so it is tempting to think that the work was commissioned by some individual or institution outside the city – possibly the Catholic court at Dresden.”

Richard Stokes (J.S. Bach – The Complete Cantatas, 1999):
Stokes’ book does not include review of the cantata, but fine English translations of the original German (and in this case Latin) texts. However, he mentions ‘After 1749’ as the year of BWV 191’s composition, assuming probably that it was composed after the B minor Mass (BWV 232).

Oxford Composer Companion – J.S. Bach (1999):
I could not find an entry for Cantata BWV 191 in Oxford Companion. However, the list of works in p. 551 mentions Christmas 1745 as the event of performance.

Brian Robins (All Classical Guide Website, 1992-2001):
“During the course of his first ten years as Cantor in Leipzig (1723-1733), Bach built up a formidable stock of cantatas for weekly use in the Thomaskirche and Nicolaikirche. Few subsequent additions appeared during the 1730’s and 1740’s, but there are a few parody works. Among them is BWV 191, unique among Bach's sacred cantatas in being the only one not to use the vernacular. First performed on Christmas Day 1745, it is an adaptation of three sections of the Gloria from the Mass in B minor, BWV 232. The first is the opening chorus of the Mass' Gloria, both text and scoring virtually unchanged except for the omission of the bassoons in the cantata. The other two movements are marked post orationem (after the sermon). The duet for soprano and tenor is an abridged version of Domine Deus (No. VII in the Mass) with the text changed to the first part of the doxology, Gloria Patri, while the final choral section completes the music the text of the doxology to used in the Mass for the Cum Sancto Spiritu (No. XI), the music slightly altered to accommodate the text. The work is in fact an interesting example of the manner in which Bach constantly refined and rethought existing material, a midpoint between the original conception of the B minor Mass' (BWV 232) Gloria, which dates from 1733, and its final form as part of the towering complete Mass of 1748.” Robins assumes that the year of composition is ‘ca. 1743’.

Personal Comments

a. None of the above resources really clarifies the clouds, which covers this enigma. I tend to believe that Bach had a master plan for the Mass in B minor (BWV 232) for many years. We know that some of its movements were taken from previous vocal works, such as Cantata BWV 12. But I believe that Cantata BWV 191 is another mater, that is to say an early draft, a trial missile. Most of the cantatas (and almost all the other vocal works) were composed for practical purposes. Usually Bach was able to hear a cantata couple of days after he had finished composing it. So he experienced the gratification which every artist has when his work comes to live. But in the case of the Mass in B minor (BWV 232) Bach was not sure that he will ever be fortunate to here it performed. So he took some movements which had been almost ready and used an unknown occasion to hear in actual performance. After hearing it, he made some adjustments and in forthcoming years completed the rest.

b. In the first round of listening to the recordings of this cantata, I had the strange feeling that I am actually hearing a fragment, which was severed brutally from a greater work. It is unavoidable because the Mass is so deep engraved in our mind. But with every repeated hearing I could enjoy this unique work on its own terms.

Review of the Recordings

[1] Helmut Winschermann (1971)
This rendition is bubbling with joy, rich, colourful and glorious. The orchestra is responsive and supportive and the choir’s singing is smooth and clean. Every nuance and every detail can be clearly heard, and the fugal lines can be easily identified and followed. But the main factor that makes this performance so captivating is the feeling of spontaneous enthusiasm. The two soloists in the ensuing duet the young soprano Ileana Cotrubas and the experienced tenor Kurt Equiluz make a magical match. The spontaneity we have experienced in the opening chorus is maintained through Cotrubas’ singing and Equiluz proves himself to be almost unmatched not only in solo arias but also in the context of a duet. You will get difficulties to find a better flute playing in this duet than the one given by Robert Dohn in this recording. The final chorus proves that this movement can be arresting and sweeping without being aggressive and without losing the delicate balance.

[2] Helmuth Rilling (1971)
Rilling’s rendition, which was recorded in the same year as Winschermann’s, bears similar characteristics. However, I find the Winschermann’s more well balanced and the enthusiasm more sincere. Rilling uses also bigger choir and the choir indeed dominates his rendition. Adalbert Kraus, young and fresh, at the beginning of his musical career, sings with delicacy and his voice match beautifully the soprano Nobuko Gamo-Yamamoto’s (about her I know nothing, except the fact that she was born in 1934) attractive voice. The rich sound of the flute interweaves with their voices to form a beautiful trio. The glowing trumpets push the choir to a triumphant conclusion.

[5] Ludwig Güttler (1995)
The peasants have also the right to glorify God. This thought crossed my mind while I was listening to this rendition. After the delicacy and the richness of the previous renditions, this one sounds rough, unpolished and one-dimensional. The choir’s singing is somewhat dull in expressive terms, and the overall atmosphere lacks real focus. You are not being swept away by the music or charmed by it. You simply wait patiently until it ends. The flute player in the ensuing duet is not on the same par with the previous flutists, but the two vocal soloists demand some attention. The Soprano Christiane Oelze has full, warm and rich voice, and the tenor Hans Peter Blochwitz has a unique, low and attractive voice. They both sing with sensitivity and their voices blend very well together. I would like the soprano to use her vibrato more economically. The balance between all the components in the concluding chorus is problematic, to say the least.

[6] Ton Koopman (1997?)
Koopman’s rendition can almost be defined as the opposite to Güttler’s. It is lighter, more polished, more colourful and much better balanced. The fugal lines are delicate and clear. The orchestral playing is almost transparent. The praises to God are conveyed in subdued way. The soprano Caroline Stam and the tenor Paul Agnew suit very well this approach. The do not force individual interpretation but let the music (and the words) speaks for itself through their singing and tender voices. The accompanying flutist is a major improvement over Güttler’s. So is the concluding chorus. A combination of Koopman’s refinement and delicacy with Güttler vigour and full-blooded approach could form a better rendition. But we actually have such recording from Winschermann’s and his forces, which are very hard to beat.

Conclusion

Personal priorities – Winschermann [1], Rilling [2], Koopman [6], Güttler [5]

And as always, I would like to hear other opi, regarding the above mentioned performances, or other recordings.

Enjoy and Happy New Bach Year to you all,

Thomas Braatz wrote (December 26, 2001):
BWV 191 Merry Xmas from J.S.Bach

See: Cantata BWV 191 - Commentary

The Recordings:

I only had two recordings to listen to: Rilling (1971) [2] and Güttler (1995) [5]

[2] Rilling:
Comparing this to other Rilling recordings, I would consider it to be average, or even slightly below average. Only the duet with Gamo-Yamamoto and Kraus was in the very good to excellent category. There were considerable weaknesses in the choir: imbalance between the vocal parts, weakness in certain vocal parts, the usual unsteady fluttering of the soprano parts (too much vibrato). Even the trumpets sounded out of tune at times. After hearing these choral mvts. that Bach wrote on a grand scale performed by Rilling in this manner, I doubt that I would be enthusiastic about a performance of the other mvts. from the Mass in B minor (BWV 232) performed by Rilling using this group.

[5] Güttler:
Although the duet is not quite as excellent as the one done by Rilling, it still is the best part of this particular recording. The outer two mvts. are very disappointing indeed. They have the legacy of Harnoncourt's ill-begotten HIP techniques written all over them. I am afraid that it will still take many years for this type of monstrosity to die as long as we still have conductors who are willing to sacrifice their own musical sensibilities (which some of them may not even have - and in Güttler's case, I suspect that egotism may also be a motivating factor in causing interference with Bach's intentions) in favor of competing with a temporary trend. In doing so they perpetuate a type of performance standard which is intent on dissecting Bach's glorious music improperly and on tearing it apart using illogical, non-vocal phrases and accents. I predict that the time will come when more listeners will begin to recognize in this type of performance of Bach's music the lack of a substantial element that has been destroyed by this extreme HIP approach first initiated by Harnoncourt.

Gradually there will be a return to an appreciation of the sheer power and grandeur of Bach's vocal music when performed correctly with humility and awe. This need not necessarily imply the use of huge choral and orchestral forces to achieve such an effect, as we can occasionally perceive in the recordings of Suzuki, and sometimes even of Herreweghe and Koopman, all of whom sometimes 'go over the deep end' or feel pressured to present a performance with 'lite'-entertainment appeal for the masses. Certainly much has been learned from the HIP mvt., but it will take some courageous individuals (artists who truly understand vocal and choral techniques and requirements) to reverse many of the unmusical trends that have become established over the past 40 years.

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (December 26, 2001):
[To Thomas Braatz] For some reason Th. Braatz's post has those " and ' which appear as crazy signs. This is what Aryeh USED to generate before his computer crash. This is here in addition to the Umlaut problem. I usually only have this problem with AOL users. Be that as it may. Only ignorant persons (Christians or others) would be offended by the use of Greek X for Xpistos (my attempt at Greek letters here). Latin for "Jesus helps" (subject +indicative) would have to be Jesus Juvat. The form given is (vocative+imperative)"Jesus, Help!"

Andrew Oliver wrote (December 27, 2001):
[1] I have only Winschermann's recording of this cantata, but, having that, I don't think I need another one. I particularly like its drive and vitality.

There is no time to become bored with this recording, but Winschermann achieves a sense of purposeful excitement without sacrificing musicality. The singing is excellent; the playing is excellent. It seems churlish to single out individuals, but I would particularly note the fine trumpet playing of Maurice André.

One small question: the text is the familiar words from the Latin mass, but the text I have in my version of the Vulgate reads:
"Luke 2:14 gloria in altissimis Deo et in terra pax in hominibus bonae voluntatis"
'Altissimis' rather than 'excelsis', and an extra 'in'. Does anyone know when the text was revised?

Richard Grant wrote (December 27, 2001):
[To Andrew Oliver] Perhaps the Biblical text differs from that of the Mass where the "original "Biblical text is sometimes shortened, or otherwise altered for liturgical or even purely musical purposes. We Roman Catholics who still go to Mass don't often have the occasion to hear a Mass in Latin but I have never seen the word "altissimis" in place of the word "Excelsis" in the Latin Glora as sung at Mass. I suspect your variant is the choice of the exegetes who compiled the Vulgate. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who can speak definitively on this.

Thomas Braatz wrote (December 28, 2001):
[To Andrew Oliver & Richard Grant] The NBA KB I/2 comments only as follows:

"Der Text der vorliegenden Musik wird von der lateinischen, dem Meßtext entnommenen Version des "Hymnus angelicus" Luc. 2, 14 gebildet." with a footnote: "Die Version der Vulgata liest "in altissimis" an Stelle von "in excelsis." ["The text of the music before us {Mvt. 1 of BWV 191} has been taken from the Latin version of the 'Angelic Hymn' [Luke 2, 14 of the Latin Vulgate version], but as found in the text of the Mass. The Vulgate reads "in altissimis" in place of "in excelsis.""]

Here is the direct quote from the Latin Vulgate as used by Biblical scholars (the same text that Andrew Oliver quoted):
"2,14 gloria in altissimis Deo et in terra pax in hominibus bonae voluntatis"
It appears that the text for the Latin Mass is not the same as the Latin Vulgate, but the editors of the NBA did not concern themselves with the question regarding when and why this change was made. At least we know that Bach did not alter the words for purely musical purposes, since the editors would then have addressed this change more specifically. Is there a special form of the Latin Mass as proposed by Luther?

Dick Wursten wrote (December 28, 2001):
<<gloria in altissimis Deo>>
= Hieronymus' official translation from the Greek original he had at his disposal (in altissimus = Gr. en hypsistois). Date: ca. 400 = basic Vulgata

<<gloria in excelsis Deo>>
Before this translation appeared and became the standard, there were all kinds of different -mostly partial - translations available. And of course manuscripts in Greek. I don't know how they translated the same.

BUT: apart from this matter of translation, there is a liturgical tradition, right from the start. Probably hymns are the earliest expressions of the christian faith (cf. Ephesians 5:19... you should sing in psalms, hymns and songs). You can find (parts of) them integrated in the text of the New testament (f.e. 1 Peter 1:3-5, Phil. 2:6-11, 1Tim 3:15-16).

Worship is the mother of theology.

In this hymnic tradition the early christians followed the jewish 'times of prayer'. The most famous and oldest christian evensong is the Greek: Foos Hilaron (o happy light...).. Also very old is the doxology: doxa en hypsistois, which goes as far back as the 3^rd century... and which is almost identical with what we know as the 'grand (great?) gloria', you know continuing with: Laudamus te, benedicamus etc.....

The earliest translation in Latin (690, Antiphonarium of Bangor) of which we know, but which probably renders the traditional Latin 'doxology' (gloria) translates: Gloria in excelsis Deo, etc...

My conclusion:
1. there is a hymnic tradition, independent of and older than the translating tradition.

(source: J.A. Jungmann: missarum solemnia)

Kirk McElhearn wrote (December 29, 2001):
[2] I have only one recording of thcantata, the Rilling version. While the music is certainly familiar, there is something about the way it is put together here that sounds fragmented. It is clearly too short for a real mass, and could certainly have been a cantata that Bach slapped together when in a hurry.

I find Rilling's performance [2] to be ok in the outer movements, but the middle movement, the trio with soprano, tenor and flute, is almost magical. There is an ephemeral quality not only in the sound of the instruments, being very light, but also in the slow tempo (as compared to this movement when played in the Christmas Oratorio - which part is it, exactly?; I would like to compare). The two voices flow together smoothly, and make for a magical performance.

BWV 191 Live Performance by the Phoenix Boys Choir this evening...

Jean Laaninen wrote (December 20, 2008):
Although I am a strong advocate of women singers of Bach, this evening I was treated to my first live performance of a Bach Cantata by a boys choir. My guess is that the boys ranged from ten to about nineteen or twenty, and they gave a simply glorious performance of BWV 191 at the new Mesa Performing Arts Center, in Mesa Arizona, until the direction of George Stangelberger, who has been the executive director since 1999. The Tour Choir and the Masters Choir were included in this cantata.

The entire cantata was performed from memory to the accompaniment of local musicians (who of course had scores.) The ensemble was exquisitely balanced, and of particular delight to my ear was the flute playing of Kevin Kolden, while my husband was particularly impressed with the Trumpet playing of Brittany Hendricks.

The older boys wore suits, but the younger ones had red cassocks with short white surplices covering--so suitable for the season.

Movement I caused me to sit up in my seat, because I had never seen such discipline in boys of this age. Not one eye ever left the director, as he led with a fluid conducting style I'd never witnessed in performance. What I noticed, too, was that he allowed his directing to be low enough to be comfortable for the 'shorter'' persons.

The accuracy of diction and the perfection of the sixteenth note runs on Gloria in excelsis Deo, along the purity of tone captivated me immediately. Mvt. 2 was a special treat as the vocal duet was organized with three boys to each part, but singing with one voice. The flute tones were like crystal in the hall, as all other included instruments performed their parts in balance. In Mvt. 3 the full ensemble played again, I believe. Not an eye moved off the conductor during Mvt. 2, and everyone was completely 'there' for the closing--Sicut erat in principio. To my ear only a few of the amens seemed a bit abrupt, but in the texture to bring them out, this may have been what was required. As a first experience of a live boys choir singing Bach I thought the efforts were extraordinary, and the audience response was strong. The ringing overtones in the air at the end of moment three will be with me for some time to come.

Nicholas Johnson wrote (December 20, 2008):
[To Jean Laaninen] Perhaps a chorus is OK with boys voices. The solo arias however are often shockingly out of tune. Compare the perfect Agnus Die by Andreas Scholl on youtube

Not many people would risk singing it so slowly.

Jean Laaninen wrote (December 20, 2008):
[To Johnson Nicholas] Do you have a link, Nicolas? Interesting that the solo arias are often out of tune. However, wonderfully the pitch was great in this performance. Sure, a chorus with all boys voices is fine--I just never happened to have experienced it live before with a Bach Cantata. We collected the Vienna Boys Choir recordings back when they were available on cassette tapes--that's a while ago.

Nicholas Johnson wrote (December 20, 2008):
[To Jean Laaninen] Dear Jean I goggle « Agnus Die youtube scholl »

John Pike wrote (December 20, 2008):
[To Johnson Nicholas] Many thanks for this, Jean. There is something very distinctive about live performance as opposed to listening to a recording. As your review reveals, there is just so much sensory input in all modalities that makes it so much more satisfying. One of the most memorable performances I attended with my wife was at the Staatsbibliothek in Berlin, to celebrate the restoration of the Bach manuscripts in their collection (about 80% of the total). We had donated a smallish sum towards the cost of restoration and were initially rewarded with a facsimile of BWV 190. We thought that would be it, but about a year later we received the invitation to attend the party. We live in Bristol, UK and the thought of a midweek trip to Berlin (travel time at least 6 hours) to attend the party, even though the original manuscripts were going to be on display, was initially too much for me but, to my eternal indebtedness, my wife, who is not especially musical, remarked that it was a "once in a life time opportunity". I readily agreed and booked the flights. A series of lectures, including one from Christoph Wolff, were interspersed with the cantata BWV 182 and the motet BWV 226. Soon after we arrived in our seats and the President of the Bundesrepublik arrived, the cantata began. At once, both I and my wife were in seventh heaven, and we stayed there until leaving the building. I will never forget the visual impact and the sounds, now indelibly carved on my mind's eye and ear. After the performance we all had a large glass of wine (which I consumed with great alacrity), I got Christoph Wolff to sign my copy of his book "JS Bach - The Learned Musician", and then proceeded swiftly to view the manuscripts - not a handful of lesser known pieces as I had feared - but many of Bach's most superlative scores in the Library's collection. To quote Brad on discovering Bach's temperament, "Holy Cow!"

Jean Laaninen wrote (December 20, 2008):
[To John Pike] What a wonderful story. Thanks for sharing. As you say, there's nothing quite like being there in person--one of the reasons I favor live performance so much.

Jean Laaninen wrote (December 20, 2008):
[To Johnson Nicholas] I just listened. Amazing the absolutely reflective quality in this slower version. Thanks so much.

Discussions in the Week of December 21, 2008

Terejia wrote (December 21, 2008):
Introduction to Cantata BWV 191 Gloria in excelsis Deo

The cantata to be discussed this week is BWV 191.

Instruments
Strings, 2 oboes, 2 flutes, 3 trampets and timpani.

Previous discussions: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV191-D.htm
commentar: http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/bachjs/cantatas/191.php

Also, pre-introduction by Jean (humorously :-))
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29537

Good experience, Jean, I really envy you. Boys' voices are really special to me. Probably less trained, less refined than female voices but somehow it gives an rarefied atomosphere to me. Not necessarily that one is better than the other, simply different.

What I personally find interesting is B-minor mass (BWV 232) comes EARLIER to this cantata in chronological order.

As is usuall the case with Bach, here he seems to exihibit his tireless endeavor in exploring musical/aesthetic perfection, IMHO, maybe mathematical perfection as well.

Mvt. 1: begins gloriously with tutti of 3 trampets, strings, 2 oboes and 2 flauto traversos and 5 voices of choir with triplet rhythms in D-dur key. String arpeggio might sounds a bit too simple, if taken independently of the whole "context"-or score. The latter part, following the hemiola conclusion of the first part, is more sober contrapunct of 4/4 rhythm and splensounding brass and timpani are told to be tacit for a while until last climax. In my personal humble opinion, it might be interesting and rather paradoxical that Koopman's [6] HIP occasionally sounds "very modernly" in such a movement.

As to the latter half, I imagine it may well be a bit pity for those singing second soprano part that they have no merisma allotted to them, yes, I mean that beautiful merisma which are allotted to all the other four voices.

Mvt. 2 G dur duet of tenor and soprano with strings and flute traverse obligato. The difference from corresponding duet from B-minor mass (BWV 232) would be that the latter has additional minor key sections added to it heading toward mysteriously sounding 4 voices of chorus devoid of 1st soprano in b-minor key. On the other hand, in BWV 191 it is followed by the chorus with utterly different tones from 'qui tolis peccata mundi'.

Recordings I have available are Rilling [2] and Koopman [6] and as far as Mvt. 2 concerns, I prefer Koopman. Rilling sounds too mellow to my personal ears.

Mvt. 3 the magnificient and glorious tutti of the opening chorus is back again with 5 voices of choir in D-dur key.

About Mvt 1st choir and Mvt 2nd duet, so far I fail to notice any distinct musical difference from corresponding choir and duet respectively from mass in B minor (BWV 232) (although there ARE differences when we listen to into the details).

However, when it comes to Mvt. 3 choir, I find some distinct differencec from 'cum sancto spiritu' in B-minor mass (BWV 232) at the very beginning. In terms of harmony, both are almost identical but the melody is different. In the latter example, i.e, in B-minor mass (BWV 232), it feels more lively, while in BWV 191, it sounds more relentlessly stern and diciplined at least to my personal ears.

Although I still have to explore deeper into the definition of the word "aethetics", this is how I have used the word so far :

By aethetics, I meant the combination of harmony, melody, overall colour or tone by combining and selecting instruments and/or voices, rhythm and tempo to divide time, mass (physics term, although I am by no means a physics specialist) elements like OVPP or MVPP-BWV 191 has heavier mass than BWV 200 in that it adds more instruments, not only in number but addition of timpani and trumpet itself implies heavier mass, at least to me, plus some intangible elements-something like an atomosphere or vibration, or the sorts. Boys' choir or female adult choir might fall into "intangible elements" but I am not sure of yet. Mathematics and aethetic may be closely related.

What I personally like about this particular piece is a mathematical structure within glorious and splendid context in D-dur key. I finally graduated from my internship as of 19th December and the joyous atomosphere matches my current mood. I suppose my ex-boss would love the piece, too. Now What do you like about this piece?

Jean Laaninen wrote (December 21, 2008):
Terejia wrote:
< The cantata to be discussed this week is BWV 191.
Instruments
Strings, 2 oboes, 2 flutes, 3 trampets and timpani.
previous discussions: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV191-D.htm
commentar: http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/bachjs/cantatas/191.php
Also, pre-introduction by Jean (humorously :-))
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29537
Good experience, Jean, I really envy you. Boys' voices are really special to me. Probably less trained, less refined than female voices but somehow it gives an rarefied atomosphere to me. Not necessarily that one is better than the other, simply different. mathematical perfection as well. >
---In the case of the Phoenix Boys Choir I believe the majority of the touring choir are likely taking private voice lessons, and possibly even the master's level students. Long ago, before I ever moved here I had an idea that growth in the arts in Phoenix was going to be on the rise, and as I've interacted with the community, I've discovered the serious level of work...going down to about the fifth grade that takes place here. This isn't the same level of work as some of the great divas, but the training is along the same trajectory. The younger groups, however, showed that natural level to which you refer. One boy in particular in the younger group could hardly stay still--we were laughing quietly to ourselves watching him as one might one's own child in a Christmas program. Most, however, were highly attentive even amongst the youngest.

< Although I still have to explore deeper into the definition of the word "aethetics", this is how I have used the word so far :
By aethetics, I meant the combination of harmony, melody, overall colour or tone by combining and selecting instruments and/or voices, rhythm and tempo to divide time, mass (physics term, although I am by no means a physics specialist) elements like OVPP or MVPP-BWV 191 has heavier mass than BWV 200 in that it adds more instruments, not only in number but addition of timpani and trumpet itself implies heavier mass, at least to me, plus some intangible elements-something like an atomosphere or vibration, or the sorts. Boys' choir or female adult choir might fall into " intangible elements" but I am not sure of yet. Mathematics and aethetic may be closely related. >
---Thanks for explaining a bit -- more of an auditory reaction, then on your part, which is the first part of the defintion I posted.

The area of critical thinking encompasses much more, but as long as we define our terms I believe we communicate quite well. I appreciate it too that you are going to look further into this area.

< What I personally like about this particular piece is a mathematical structure within glorious and splendid context in D-dur key. I finally graduated from my internship as of 19th December and the joyous atomosphere matches my current mood. >
Congratulations!

Terejia wrote (December 21, 2008):
Jean Laaninen wrote:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29556
(..)
> ---Thanks for explaining a bit -- more of an auditory reaction, then on your part, which is the first part of the defintion I posted. The area of critical thinking encompasses much more, but as long as we define our terms I believe we communicate quite well. I appreciate it too that you are going to look further into this area. <
Yes, I'm looking forward to making more progresss. As I said in my previous post, I am in a process of learning and the thema like aethetic and/or Bach's music is very profound to explore into. I am nowhere near satisfying level.

(Terejia wrote ):
>> I finally graduated from my internship as of 19^th December and the joyous atomosphere matches my current mood. <<
(Jean wrote):
> Congratulations! <
Thank you :-) What I learned during intern is, how dangerous it is in legal area to be one-sided ; to be too subjective ; not to have multiple viewpoint to see the same agenda from different perspective, different light. Multiple viewpoints/multiple perspective is not only valuable; to go on without it is very dangerous.

Weekly discussion of the given cantata from multiple viewpoints is very helpful and valuable. I tend to be very one-sided when I am on my own. I'm looking forward to see multiple viewpoints about this masterpiece, BWV 191.

Ed Myskowski wrote (December 21, 2008):
BWV 191 [was: Bach and misc.]

Terejia wrote:
>I attended a seminar addressed to lawyers and socialworkers on the subject of Livelihood Protection. As you might know in news, recent financial crisis and job shortage is driving more and more people on the street in this cold winter. I came acquainted with many social workers and I realized we both share the same earnest desire : may the text of the first movement of BWV 191 come true and we see peace on earth!<
The text of the Latin Gloria, for BWV 191, includes the prayer:
<And on earth peace to men of good will> (translation from Durr).

This phrase is most often presented in English with a small but important transposition, along the lines of:<And on earth peace and goodwill unto men> (from notes to Herreweghe, BWV 243a, where the French and German correspond to the Latin, only the English is transposed).

BWV 243a came to mind because it was the choice by Brian McCreath this morning for his FM radio presentation (also available worldwide, www.wgbh.org) for the Fourth Sunday in Advent. It is interesting, and not likely a coincidence, that this most fundamental of prayers - On earth peace to men of good will - is included in Bachs first (1723) and final (1745) Christmas compositions for Leipzig.

I especially note the <men of good will>, and presumably associated good works. Save Jimmy from the fire!? (for those following the fine print).

On a personal note to Terejia, congratulations on completing your internship, and on your excellent cantata introductions!

Douglas Cowling wrote (December 22, 2008):
BWV 191 Bach's Libretto

Terejia wrote:
> The cantata to be discussed this week is BWV 191. <
Do we have any evidence that Bach performed any Latin cantatas by other composers in the Leipzig services? We know that polyphonic Latin motets were sung regularly at the beginning of the service as introits and to replace the cantata at St. Thomas in the morning when the concerted cantata was sung at St. Nicholas on alternate weeks.

Cantata 191 is a very odd work. Glorious music but a very unusual text. The libretto draws on neither Latin scriptural verses or modern Latin poetry written by a contemporary academic poet. Rather it draws on two liturgical texts inspired by the angelic song to the shepherds in Luke.

The first movement takes the opening verses from the liturgical Gloria in Excelsis Deo, the "Greater Doxology" in the standard mass text. The second and third movements are drawn from the Gloria Patri, the "Lesser Doxology", which was sung daily to conclude the chanting of Latin psalms and canticles at Matins and Vespers. Bach set the text conventionally at the end of the Magnificat as so many other composers such as Handel and Vivaldi did in their Latin psalms and canticles.

But in this cantata Bach sets liturgical texts which have been plucked out of their normal position in the sequence of services. The first movement is particularly bizarre as that text would already have been sung in a concerted setting at the beginning of the same service! Nor is it all normal to have the Gloria Patri set as a solo duet followed by a chorus. Bach's disposition in the Magnificat is more conventional: a choral andante/adagio "Gloria Patri" followed by an allegro "Sicut Erat In Principio".

Having said that, I recently researched a reconstruction of an 18^th century Roman Vespers with the music of Handel and Vivaldi which the Tallis Choir of Toronto performed. I was intrigued with Vivaldi's setting of the opening responses which were laid out as three-movement work:

1. Chorus: Deus in Adjutorium Meum
2. Aria (soprano): Gloria Patri
3. Chorus: Sicut Erat in Principio

Vivaldi's setting is a liturgical work intended to open Vespers, but its similarities to Cantata 191 is striking.

One can understand Bach's desire to reuse this incomparable music, but what was the motivation in fashioning this unique text?

William Hoffman wrote (December 22, 2008):
Douglas Cowling wrote [Libretto]:
< I was intrigued with Vivaldi's setting of the opening responses which were laid out as three-movement work:
1. Chorus: Deus in Adjutorium Meum
2. Aria (soprano): Gloria Patri
3. Chorus: Sicut Erat in Principio
Vivaldi's setting is a liturgical work intended to open Vespers, but its similarities to Cantata 191 is striking.
One can understand Bach's desire to reuse this incomparable music, but what was the motivation in fashioning this unique text? >
William Hoffman replies: Thank you for your exegis of the canticles/pslams and the Lesser Doxology. A Bach-Vivaldi connection? Most certainly. About 1725, Bach sent the performing parts for his Missa Sanctus, BWV 232III, to a certain "Count Franz Anton Sporck, a Bohemian nobleman and music enthusiast based in Prague," according to Geo. Stauffer in his BWV 232 monograph. It turns out that Sporck may have first encountered Bach at Carlsbad in 1719, had strong connections to the Dresden Court and strong connections to Vivaldi. Sporck collected many of Vivaldi's concerti as well as vocal works, which may have included not only the great Gloria but also a Kyrie and Credo. Vivaldi never finished a complete Mass, as Bach did. Vivaldi composed much vesper music, while Handel has left us some early works. Unfortunately, Vivaldi died in Vienna c.1740, burned out on operas as Handel did.

Also, in a little while, I'll send out my Fugitive notes on BWV 191.

William Hoffman wrote (December 22, 2008):
BWV 191: Fugitive Notes

Much has happened since Thomas Braatz' BWV 191 Commentary (BCW Recordings, Intro platelet) of December 26, 2001. Now, we have not only new research findings but also, IMHO, a stronger Bach sense and sensibility, a perspective of greater depth and breadth. As a result, we are able to accept the work on its own terms and merits, as Jean observes in the recent Mesa AZ performance, and begin to connect the dots. Now, we are better able to imagine Bach's creative process in the context of the real world in which he functioned and to which he contributed so much. We learn more from this Learned Musician about his opportunity, motive, and method.

My key research source is George B. Stuffer's exemplary monograph, <Bach, The Mass in B Minor: The Great Catholic Mass (311 pp., Yale University Press, 2003). The search for original music sources is enhanced by William Scheide's recent essay, "<Sein Segen fliesset daher wie ein Strom,> BWV Anh. I 14: A Source for parodied Arias in the B-Minor Mass?" in <About Bach,> Festschrift for Christoph Wolff; eds. Gregory G. Butler, George B. Stauffer, and Mary Dalton Greer (pp. 69-77, University of Illinois Press, 2008).

Bach's so-called "Missa Cantata (Latin Music) for Christmas Day" is listed in Schmieder as Latin Music for the first Christmas Festival (Christ's Nativity) and its composition is dated 1743-46. As Thomas observes in his Commentary (citing Gregory Butler), the work may have been presented on Christmas Day 1745 "to celebrate the Peace of Dresden at the conclusion of the 2nd Silesian War (during which Leipzig had been occupied by the Prussian troops of Leopold of Anhalt-Dessau) at a special academic thanksgiving service in the Leipzig University Church.."

As Thomas points out, the editors of the NBA KB I/2 offer three standard possibilities for Bach's composition of BWV 191: "1) replaced the usual cantata completely, 2) was performed for avery special occasion (not necessarily political), or 3) was considered as the primary cantata for Christmas Day." I guess that covers all the three bases.

My take (IMHO): Bach did not need to compose another Christmas Day German "cantata" for his well-ordered cycle of church-year music. He already had BWV 63 (cycle 1), BWV 91 (cycle 2), BWV 110 (cycle 3), BWV 197a (Cycle 4), and BWV 248I (Cycle 5). He also had on hand, besides BWV 191, two other Latin church works: BWV 243a Magnificat and BWV 232/20 Sanctus in D.

As to a special Thanksgiving service, Bach had presented other works for similar special celebrations of either Lutheran observance or the Saxon Court. We have the three-day festival for Observance of the 200^th Anniversary of the Augsburg Confession, June 26-28, 1730, with parodies of Town-Council cantatas BWV 120a, BWV Anh. 4a, and BWV Anh. 3. Later, we have the Festive Service of Allegiance to August III, April 21, 1733, at the Thomas Church, possibly with BWV 232I, Kyrie-Gloria; and a Thanksgiving Service for the War of Polish Succession, July 6, 1734, at the Nikolas Church, possibly with BWV 248a, later parodied as BWV 248VI for Epiphany 1735.

A look at the actual work, BWV 191, shows that Bach presented a symmetrical three-movement (16-minute) piece: a stirring, dance-like chorus to the canticle "Glory to God in the Highest" (Luke 2:14, 3/8 giga-like), which previously began the Gloria of his B-Minor Missa; an intimate "Gloria patri" 4/4 slow love-duet for soprano and tenor, a contrafaction of the Domine Deus" from the same Missa; and another stirring, ¾ dance-like chorus, also a contrafaction of the Missa closing "Cum Sancto Spiritu." The two contrafactions (Latin parodies) are from the 4th Century Lesser Doxology, "Gloria patri" and the "sicut erat in principio." Bach's two-movement setting of the Lesser Doxology, performed after the sermon, could very well be another of his contributions to a well-regulated, well-ordered church music.

While BWV 191 is billed as Bach's only Latin "cantata," Bach also did contrafactions of mostly church cantata movements for his later Missa brevise (Kyrie-Gloria) "Short Masses," BWV 233-36, in the last half of the 1730, as well as his Missa tota in B Minor. The "Short Masses" may have been intended possibly for performance in Dresden either in Lutheran services for his son Wilhelm Friedemann or for one of his Catholic benefactors at the Saxon Court.

Obviously, Bach transformed the music for the three movements of BWV 191, in order, from his 1733 Missa. Here is a short summary of the possible musical origins of the three, according to Stauffer's monograph. "Gloria in excelsis" possibly came from a Koethen instrumental work (Smend) but recent research (Joshua Rifkin and John Butt) suggests a festive cantata from late 1720 to early 1730. The "Domine Deus" may have come from a lost duet in the dramma per musica, "Ihr Hauser des Himmels," BWV 193a/5, for the birthday of Augustus the Strong in 1727. The "Cum Sancto Spiritu" in fugal stile antico may have originated in a lost cantata from 1725-30.

Stauffer in his BWV 232 monograph notes that Bach made extensive revisions in the music for the Lesser Doxology. Bach used only the "A" section of the original love duet and adjusted the text and instrumentation of the closing fugal chorus. In both movements, Bach uses different texts simultaneously, called polytextuality, a common Mass compositional technique.

In the Lesser Doxology that closes Zelenka's Miserere, ZWV 57, there is a stile misto (mixed style) succession of four movements for soprano (aria, moderno) then chorus (antico) of the "Gloria patri," followed by the "Sicut erat" for soprano (moderno) then chorus (antico).

The search for the sources of other movements in the Mass in B Minor continues. It is based on the supposition that Bach's autograph score of the late 1740s is a clean, fair manuscript, that the music was mostly copied, rather than a working sketch. The adaptations would involve texts of contrafaction from German to Latin, rather than text substitute in German. Therefore, it is impossible to compare the Latin texts to any German counterparts/predecessors. Using the proven examples where the original music survives (BWV 232/6,24=29/2, BWV 232/8=BWV 46/1, BWV 232/13=BWV 171/1, BWV 232/16=BWV 12/1, BWV 232/19=BWV 120/2, BWV 232/21=BWV 2151, BWV 232/23=BWV 11/4), scholars usually search for music with similar affect and stylistic elements.

The recent findings of Bach scholar William Scheide, age 94!, suggest that as many as all four arias from the lost sacred wedding Cantata BWV Anh. 14 of Feb. 12, 1725, may survive, adapted in the Mass in B Minor (BWV 232). They are opening aria, "His blessings flow" (Ecc. 39:22), as No. 5, "Laudamus Te" for alto and violin; BWV Anh. 14/3, aria "Happy are you" (Ezek 47:1,4), as No. 10, "Quoniam," for bass and horn; Arioso No. 4, "Bitterness withdraws from you" (Ex. 18:25) as No. 22, Benedictus qui venit," for soprano and flute; and Aria No. 6, "So step into paradise" (Gen. 2:11), as No. 18, "Et in Spiritum Sanctum" for bass and two oboes d'amore. While all the music is lost, Bach took the text directly from the Bible, as he had done in some of his earliest cantatas.

The date of Feb. 12, 1725 is significant in Bach's compositional process. The previous day, Quinquagesima Estomihi Sunday, Bach presented his penultimate chorale cantata in the second cycle. The next day, the beginning of Lent, he presented this wedding cantata, which may have been the springboard for his Great Mass; on February 23 his Weissenfels serenade BWV 249a, which became the first of his parodied oratorios, for Easter, April 1; on February 24, the last extant chorale cantata in the cycle, Cantata BWV 1, for the Feast of the Annunciation; and on Good Friday, March 30, the second version of his St. John Passion, in lieu of a Picander Poetic Passion, text only BWV Anh. 169, which became the textual basis for the St. Matthew Passion of 1727.

What a serendipitous situation in Lent 1725! Having produced almost two full cycles of church-year cantatas, Bach begins to turn systematically to large-scale church works: oratorios, passions, and Masses. Perhaps this, in a positive sense, helps explain why Bach ceased to write sustained weekly cantata cycles. He had reached a higher creative plateau?

Provenance: I think the autograph of the B-Minor Missa and Mass went to Carl Philipp Emmanuel and the Credo intonation draft was copied by Altnikol in 1755. Meanwhile, Wilhelm Friedemann may have possessed the score of BWV 191, while no performing parts survive.

The BWV 191 commentary lag/gap will catch up, as we examine the genesis of this work, which is part and parcel of the genesis of the Missa tota. Perhaps, the parts are greater than the sum? Or does this BWV 191 tail perhaps wag the "great" dog, which, like Milton's Paradise Lost (a monumental oratorio?), is finally an epic journey into faith, humanity and the creative process?

John Pike wrote (December 22, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski, regarding Bach and misc.] Mmm. I've always taken it to mean "peace and goodwill towards (all) men", which is surely the Christian message.

Douglas Cowling wrote (Decemb22, 2008):
William Hoffman wrote [Fugitive Notes]:
< Or does this BWV 191 tail perhaps wag the "great" dog, which, like Milton's Paradise Lost (a monumental oratorio?), is finally an epic journey into faith, humanity and the creative process? >
Thanks for the outline of Cantata BWV 191, especially the Dresden connection.

Some scholars believe that the original libretto (now lost) for Haydn's "Creation" was written for Handel who never set it. It was presented to Haydn when he visited London. It was then reworked into its present form. Interestingly, Haydn authorized both the German and the English versons simultanesously.

Ed Myskowski wrote (December 22, 2008):
BWV 191 [was: Bach and history]

John Pike responded to my post:
>Mmm. I've always taken it to mean "peace and goodwill towards (all) men", which is surely the Christian message.<
EM:
I wonder how surely? For example, in the plain mans guide to Latin, from the site www.latin-mass-society.org (see disclaimer below):

<It has however frequently been a source of puzzlement as to why Catholics and Protestants seem to have different translations (“to men of goodwill” and “goodwill to men” respectively). The reason is that the oldest and best manuscripts, followed by St. Jerome in the Vulgate, have “to men of goodwill”. However, at a very early stage in the manuscript tradition some careless scribe omitted the final letter from the Greek word “eudókias”, thereby transforming it from a genitive (“of goodwill”) to a nominative (“goodwill”). Since the result still made grammatical sense the error was not spotted and subsequent copyists perpetuated it, thereby giving rise to a whole family of manuscripts which contain the error.>

I was not originally writing to challenge anyones beliefs, but to support my retort to Doug (citing Luther): <Save Jimmy from the fire!?> I only discovered the historic uncertainty in translation subsequently, in considering this present response to John.

Note the consistency of <to men of goodwill> with, for example, James 1:14: <What does it profit, my bethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?>

Disclaimer: I have used the website for information only, I have not encountered it before, and I have no specific spiritual affinity with it.

Apologies in advance if the Greek word cited is scrambled in transmission.

Jean Laaninen wrote (December 22, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski, regarding Bach and history] And now, also to all women...smile. I am not really a feminist, but I have really enjoyed the change in translation or writing to his or her/men and women in recent years. Sure, one has to type a little bit more, or one could simply say 'to all humans.' No...I haven't hit the punch before writing this, but I just could not resist. I truly enjoy all of these chats, and one thing I have learned from so many of you is that good will abounds. Let it stretch to the far corners of the earth this season as celebrated in so many ways, and continue on through the new year and beyond.

John Pike wrote (December 22, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski, regarding Bach and history] Thanks for this, Ed. Most interesting. We have now strayed OT, but if any clergyman on list feels so moved, perhaps they could comment further on this to me OFF LIST, and also on the famous passage from James which Ed quotes. I have never seen James as being in conflict with Paul on this, but merely saying that "although you are saved by faith, what's the point in that if good works do not follow as a result". However, reading the quotation above again now, it does seem that James is in absolute contradiction of Paul. There is also a passage in Matthew (I think), where Jesus says something along the lines of "There will be many who come to me on that day and say Lord, Lord, did we not preach in your name and drive out evil spirits in your name, and I will say to them: "I never knew you. Away from me you evil doers"". Things get even more complex when thinking about a section in an epistle of John about "Testing the Spirits". John advises that you can tell a good spirit from an evil one because the good spirit will profess that Jesus Christ is Lord, but the section from Matthew above suggests that that, on its own, is not enough. Putting all this together, it seems to me that we must be justified by faith but that the good works must then follow, or are we all in for a very big surprise at the end, as some claim?

I don't know. I'm sure it mattered to Bach and it certainly matters to me.

Thanking you in anticipation.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (December 22, 2008):
Douglas Cowling wrote [Fugitive Notes]:
< Some scholars believe that the original libretto (now lost) for Haydn's "Creation" was written for Handel who never set it. It was presented to Haydn when he visited London. >
I'm curious which scholars are saying that. I'd like to dig into this more.

Peter Smaill wrote (December 22, 2008):
[To Kim Patrick Clow, regarding Fugitive Notes] This curious transmission is all set out in Christopher Hogwood's biography of Handel. The earlier source is H C Robbins Landon in "Haydn: the Years of 'The Creation'".

The writer E J dent suggested that a text derived from "Paradise Lost" by Milton was given to Handel in 1744. From this source somehow evolved the libretto for The Creation, given by Salomon to Haydn as the composer left England for the second time in 1795.This text , which has since disappeared, was translated by van Swieten, to be "set in front of the excellent Haydn for him to compose in the manner of Handel"

When the full score of "The Creation"was eventually published in 1800 it was indeed in parallel English and German translations.

Douglas Cowling wrote (December 23, 2008):
[To Kim Patrick Clow, regarding Fugitive Notes] Hogwood mentions it briefly in his Handel biography. His period instrument performance of the "Creation" used the English translation so I imagine the scholarly apparatus is in the notes.

Terejia wrote (December 23, 2008):
on text "et in terra pax ..." Re: BWV 191

John Pike wrote:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29578
(large portion snipped )
< I don't know. I'm sure it(Terejia inserts : i.e. an APPARENT contradiction of the two Epistoles authors(Paul and James) as to if it is faith or conduct that counts ) mattered to Bach and it certainly matters to me.
Thanking you in anticipation. >
I have some Protestant friends outside this list. The text "et in terra pax hominibus bone voluntatis" may well have a specific quality of meaning for Christians.

However, to the best of my knowledge, the prayer for peace on Earth is shared by all bona fide people regardless of faith denomination or non-faith. Protestant Christians tend to emphasize the specialties and/or only-oneness of their faith, which sometimes doesn't align with the overall values of civic world.

If my modest level of understanding SHOULD be correct by any chance, I perceive that Lutherian church and civic groups seem to have different rules when it comes to the matter of faith. In civic groups, all the faiths or non-faiths have equal value but inside Lutherian church it does not seem to be the case.

Also in a civic world, especially in a society like Japanese society, those who throw the ball that the group cannot catch are not quite acceptable to the group even when "the ball " is something invaluable or right or correct, beautiful, or the like. For example, the choir conductor in my church tries to impose correct singing-she means being faithful to the notes- upon the congregations, which caused her to be in trouble in the church.

Such an group attitude may not be always correct nor always serve to the group. On the other hand, for the sake of communication, throwing a ball that might cause a rejection reacat the receipient may not always serve. Difficult and delicate matter but I trust members can deal with the issue much better than myself. Both John and Ed are very sensitive, very intelligent and first and foremost always show kind consideration toward other members.

Peace be unto you :-))

Terejia wrote (December 23, 2008):
seasonal greeting message as in cantata Re: BWV 191 [was Bach and history]

Jean Laaninen wrote:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29576
< And now, also to all women...smile. I am not really a feminist, but I have really enjoyed the change in translation or writing to his or her/men and women in recent years. Sure, one has to type a little bit more, or one could simply say 'to all humans.' No...I haven't hit the punch before writing this, but I just could not resist. I truly enjoy all of these chats, and one thing I have learned from so many of you is that good will abounds. Let it stretch to the far corners of the earth this season as celebrated in so many ways, and continue on through the new year and beyond. >
Thank you for this beautiful seasonal greeting, Jean. Adding my own earnest wishes for good, joy and peace unto all humanbeings.

Terejia wrote (December 23, 2008):
apology for not being able to give my reply to all posts

Thank you al for your lively discussions in a peaceful atomosphere.

Aplogy for not being able to reply to all the posts. I find the thread about Lutherian liturgy between Doug(who might well have practical concern on the matter as a music director of Church), William Hoffman, Kim to be interesting-probably of great value to the whole list but since I have nothing to say, I decided it be better left to the hands of more knowledgeable persons. Oh, no need to apology, after all...

I appreciate Ed's support and compliment to my "excellent?(to use his gracious complimentary word)" introduction...the truth of the matter is I am probably more than 80 % dependent on William on the matter of introduction, not because we arranged it that way but as a matter of fact. One of the thing I learned during my internship from my boss is how to utilize personel resources for a specific purpose. In this case, I'm glad I seem to have suceeded, to some degree, to make a knowledgeable person willing to contribute to support Aryeh's purpose, i.e. to encourage all the members to appreciate Bach better.

I'm going to serve as an organist in Christmas Eve mass and Christmas morning mass. Our choir conductor all of a sudden requested me to move the key of "O Holy Night" from Des-Dur to C-dur last Sunday. It may well be a piece of cake for a professionally trained organists but for me it took some effort. It was lucky for me that it was not the other way round! (sidenote : it is a shame, because, the choir used to sing 'suscepit Israel' from Bach's D-dur Magnificat, before the Father abruptly changed choir conductor and ordered to change the piece sung for the sake of popularity!! ) Beside, as is usually the case with funeral, I had funeral duty last night and today's afternoon. I feel a bit tired now.

Just to get back to BWV 191 in my last paragraph- I'm going to play Es-dur fuga of BWV 552 as a postlude and accidentally I noticed-probably much belatedly-that C part of that organ masterpiece has the same rhythm as A part of first movement of BWV 191.

Happy Holiday greetings to all.

Ed Myskowski wrote (December 23, 2008):
BWV 191 [was Bach and history]

Therese wrote:
>I just thought that if we wish to have peace on earth, we'd better involve all humans, not only the "bonae voluntatis" ones!<
Leave it to a lady to point out that detail! Perhaps there has been more than one mistranslation from original through Greek to English? In which case, better fix up those French and German translations with Herreweghe, BWV 243a.

Thanks for the concert report!

Jean wrote:
>And now, also to all women...smile. I am not really a feminist<
The jazz legend Sun Ra said: <Just as every marine is a rifleman, so every Arkestran is a percussionist>

I would add, every man (homo, per Thomas Cahill) of goodwill is a feminist. Thanks for the book recommendation, Mysteries of the Middle Ages.

Ed Myskowski wrote (December 24, 2008):
BWV 191 text

Terejia wrote:
>The text "et in terra pax hominibus bone voluntatis" may well have a specific quality of meaning for Christians.<
Doug pointed out that this text (Gloria Excelsis or greater doxology(?)) would have been sung on a more or less weekly basis throughout Bach's Leipzig career, in earlier motets. Nonetheless, I would like to keep open the question as to whether it had special significance for Bach in relation to his original Christmas compositions, BWV 243a and BWV 191, almost like bookends for his Leipzig music.

An aside re BWV 243a: Brian McCreath offered the opinion, when he aired it Sunday, that it was Bachs announcement to the Leipzig officialdom: <You hired the right guy!>

Thanks, Brian, I hope a few others join us weekly, Sunday AM, www.wbgh.org. Radio, almost (but only almost!) as communal as live music.

Ed Myskowski wrote (December 24, 2008):
BWV 191 text

Thoughts while listening to a friend lead her annual (26^th) Xmas sing-along:

The traditional carol, Gloria in Excelsis Deo, says nothing about peace on earth, nor goodwill.

The country tune, Peace in the Valley, can bring a tear to an Old Dudes eye, when sung from the heart.

Listening closely, I noticed:
<Rudolf the red-nosed reindeer
Yule go down in herstory.>

Not exactly Bach concert performance, but in the spirit of the season (solstice plus), and current discussion.

As I write, what should appear on the radio but three Xmas cantatas by Stoltzen.

Baroque (but happy!), Ed Myskowski

Continue of this part of the discussion, see: Gottfried Heinrich Stölzel & Bach [Bach & Other Composers]

Terejia wrote (December 24, 2008):
Bach and Christmas music

Ed Myskowski wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29604
< Thoughts while listening to a friend lead her annual (26^th) Xmas sing-along:
The traditional carol, Gloria in Excelsis Deo, says nothing about peace on earth, nor goodwill. >
Now that you reminded me! Indeed.

We sing Gloria as part of Catholic liturgy, except for Advent and Lent season, regularly in mass, not particularly in Christmas limited.

>> The country tune, Peace in the Valley, can bring a tear to an Old Dudes eye, when sung from the heart.
Listening closely, I noticed:
<Rudolf the red-nosed reindeer
Yule go down in herstory.>
Not exactly Bach concert performance, but in the spirit of the season (solstice plus), and current discussion.<<
The point is, "from the heart", IMHO.

>> As I write, what should appear on the radio but three Xmas cantatas by Stoltzen.
Baroque (but happy!), Ed Myskowski<<
As I do not have large CD collections and it is extremely difficult to get CDs in Japan (many times I've told by the CD shop clerks, that certain and certain CD is out of print, while it is on sale in Amazon. US), I obtained a membership in Naxos library. I made up a playing list titled "Christmas series", in which I included BWV 248 (by Suzuki ), BWV 132, BWV 191, BWV 61, BWV 243a (by either Rilling or Koopman), Charpentier's Noel, Heinrich Schutz, Palestrina,Corelli etc.

Now after having enjoyed all the good wishes, heartwarming greetings, joyful music, presents,etc., I have come to enjoy the last item of Christmas gift list from my Santa Clause, which is catching up some sleep and quiet rest. Since Bach's music is too lively, too much upward vector, more spirit awakening rather than calmingdown for me to go to sleep or rest, I now choose Louis Couperin and John Dowland to rest quietly and go to sleep.

Discussions in the Week of March 8, 2009

Douglas Cowling wrote (March 7, 2009):
Week of March 8, 2009: BWV 191, Gloria in Excelsis Deo

Week of March 8, 2009: BWV 191, Gloria in Excelsis Deo

Cantata for Christmas Day

BACKGROUND LINKS:

Links to texts, translations, scores, recordings and earlier discussions:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV191.htm

PERFORMANCE HISTORY:

Leipzig, 1733 or 1743-1746
1st performance: 1743-1746 - Leipzig

Gregory Butler, supported by John Butt and Robin Leaver, proposes that the cantata was performed at a special academic service of thanksgiving on Saturday, December 25, 1745 at the Paulinerkirche, the university church, to celebrate the Peace of Dresden at the conclusion of the 2nd Silesian War. Leipzig had been occupied by the Prussian troops of Leopold of Anhalt-Dessau.

Butler also proposes that Bach was the organist who ³preludised² at the service, that is introduced hymns and choral works with chorale-preludes (see Musical Sequence for Christmas Day below for prescribed times for preludes). Butler suggests that Bach revised the ³Fughetta super Allein Gott in Der Höhe² (BWV 677) to produce the large-scale fugal Chorale-prelude (BWV 547/), both of which were played at the service. ³Allein Gott² is the German chorale version of the Latin Gloria in Excelsis and had already been sung in the University Church service (musical sequence outlined in ³The Organ Music of J. S. Bach² by Peter Williams .)

(See below for links to online excerpts from Butt and Leaver who discuss the date of performance.)

LIBRETTO:

³Gloria in Excelsis² is the only Bach cantata in Latin, although Latin motets and settings of the mass ordinary were normative in all Bach¹s services: ³Puer Natus in Bethlehem² had already been sung as the Christmas Day introit (see Musical Sequence for Christmas Day below for Latin movements). If the work had a university performance, the use of Latin would make sense: the sermon was probably in Latin as well. In addition to the mass and Magnificat settings, Bach set Latin texts for the Christmas interpolations in the E flat version of the Magnificat (including the ³Gloria in excelsis² text.)

The odd thing about the libretto is that it repeats liturgical texts in a cantata: the opening verses of the ³Gloria in Excelsis² (the ³Greater Doxology²) had already been sung in concerted form in the service, and the ³Gloria Patri² (the ³Lesser Doxology²) which closed psalms and canticles in the daily office had also already been heard that Christmas morning at Matins. Bach seems to regard the first movement as a Latin version of the scriptural verses and thus the ³dictum² for the cantata, as he did in the German cantata 197a, ³Ehre sei Gott.² The use of the ³Gloria Patri² allowed the final ³Amen² to remain with little alteration in the parody adaptation.

The three-movement format is an oddity as well. It is more common in motets such as ³Singet dem Herrn² and ³Der Geist Hilft.² The sheer length of the opening movement may have shaped the decision. Bach divides the cantata into two halves after the opening movement, again a unique format in Bach, and again perhaps support for the proposal that this was a special university event. Was that service not a mass but a musical matrix for a stand-alone sermon? Bach¹s citation ³post orationem² may refer to ³after the prayer² which followed the sermon (³oratio² is a more common term for ³prayer² than ³sermon/oration²)

There are three-movement works for Catholic vespers music in the Dresden repertoire which may have suggested the format to Bach. Without suggesting a connection, the Vivaldi ³Deus in Adjutorium/Domine ad Adjuvandum² has a similar layout:

1. Chorus: ³Deus in Adjutorium/Domine ad Adjuvandum²
2. Solo: ³Gloria Patri²
3. Chorus: ³Sicut erat in Principio²

RELATIONSHIP TO MASS IN B MINOR:

All three movements are parodies from the Gloria of the 1733 Missa not the final Mass in B Minor (1748-49):

1. Chorus: ³Gloria in Excelsis² = Chorus: ³Gloria in Excelsis²
2. Duet: ³Gloria Patri² = Duet: ³Domine Deus²
3. Chorus: ³Sicut Erat in Principio² = Chorus: ³Cum Sancto Spiritu²

Butt proposes this sequence for the various versions:

1) Missa, Gloria (1733) First version of Kyrie and Gloria, the so-called ³Lutheran Missa Brevis². (Both Stauffer and Butt point out that Catholic churches also performed missae breve with other settings of the Credo, Sanctus/Benedictus and Agnus Dei.)

2) Cantata 191, ³Gloria in Excelsis² (1745)

3) Mass in B Minor, Gloria, (1748-49)

INDIVIDUAL MOVEMENTS:

Mvt. 1: Chorus: ³Gloria in Excelsis²
This is one of the great Bach ³signature² movements. In performances of the Mass in B Minor, the appearance of the trumpets in D major after the long ³Kyrie² section is an electric Ocoup de theatre¹ comparable to the
OHallelujah Chorus¹ in OMessiah.¹ (In liturgical performances, the Gloria was preceded by the priest¹s chant intonation of ³Gloria in excelsis Deo² so the orchestral introduction served the purpose of an ³intonazione² )

The scoring is the traditional Big Bach Band expected for Christmas: 3 trumpets and timpani with flutes doubling oboes. Bach does not include the bassoon part that appears in the 1733 Missa and the BMM. The choir is in a festive 5 parts (SSATB), a voicing we see in the Credo of the BMM and the Magnificat. The vocal demands are prodigious and the sopranos are sent up to a symbolic high B natural high A is Bach¹s usual limit.

The movement is cast as a gigantic prelude and fugue. In terms of tempo, do we assume that the dotted quarter of the ³Gloria² section equals a half note at ³Et in terra²? Or does the hemiola in the last 2 bars of the ³Gloria² create equal quarter notes across the time signature change? Many conductors do not maintain a prolational relationship between the sections. Was Bach attracted to the Missa as a source because of the great shouts of ³pax² in the closing pages? The music certainly has the quality of a great ³Te Deum² for a state occasion celebrating a peace treaty.

Mvt. 2 |: ³Gloria Patri
The duets here and in the BMM are remarkably consonant considering the differences in the word underlay of the two texts. Bach retains the muted strings and pizzicato bass, but scores the two flutes in unison rather than solo as in the BMM. There are a fair number of ornaments and articulations in the cantata that do not appear in the BMM: e.g. the second note of the flute part has a trill throughout. The ³Lombard² rhythms that Bach added to the BMM parts do not appear here. Because the cantata movement is not continuous with the following chorus as the duet is in the BMM (³Qui tollis²), Bach concludes the movement with the repeat of the opening introduction (bar 84 in the mass.)

Mvt. 3: ³Sicut Erat in Principio²
In the BMM, ³Cum Sancto Spiritu² begins Oex abrupto¹ at the end of the ³Quoniam² and there is no orchestral introduction. In the cantata, Bach brings the previous duet to a full close, and it is odd that he does not provide an orchestral introduction to this movement. He does however add new choral parts probably inspired by the trumpet fanfares in bar 3. The cantata and the mass versions provide a fascinating comparison of Bach¹s incomparable genius in scoring. In the mass, the flutes double the oboes until bar 111, but here they are given independent parts that can be heard quite prominently in the first bar and in the interlude at bar 64. In the mass, the fugue has only bass continuo support; here the flutes, oboes and strings provide delightful antiphonal accompaniment to the voices. The interlude at bar 64 also has markings for solo cello that heighten the echo effects. I was disappointed that the flutes take over the flashing trumpet parts at bar 75,but the first trumpet does reclaim those dazzling final four bars. It is curious that Bach did not incorporate these scoring changes when he assembled the Mass in B Minor.

LINKS TO ONLINE EXCERPTS:

John Butt, Mass in B Minor, p.12
Part 1 < Part 2 > < Part 3 > < Part 4 >

Leaver, Cambridge Companion to Bach, p.116
Part 1 < Part 2 > < Part 3 > < Part 4 >

MUSICAL SEQUENCE FOR CHRISTMAS DAY:
Tower bells rung at 6 am and again at 7 am:
The 5200 kg bell ³Gloriosa² (1477) (pitched in A) was rung only on festivals
Candles lit at 7 am,
Archdeacon of Leipzig officiates as celebrant; Deacon assists Musicians must be in loft by final bell or be fined.

Organ Prelude on ³Puer Natus² (BWV 603 Orgelbüchlein?)
Settings by Bach or other composers before all chorales & choral works
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Ein-Kind-geborn-zu-Bethlehem.htm )
Introit Hymn/Motet by Choir: ³Puer Natus In Bethlehem²
Settings by Praetorius or Schein are possible

Organ Prelude before Kyrie to establish key and cover tuning
Missa Brevis: Kyrie & Gloria (Plainsong Gloria intonation sung by Celebrant)
A concerted setting in Latin was sung from Christmas Day to Epiphany.
Bach¹s own missae breve are generally from his later tenure in Leipzig but may have been used with later performances of the cantata:
B minor (1733) used in B Minor Mass [only missa brevis with brass]
BWV 233 - F major (1738)
based on Christmas cantata ³Dazu ist Erscheinen² 2 horns
BWV 233a Kyrie (1708-1712)
BWV 234 A major (1738)
BWV 235 G minor (1738)
BWV 236 G Major (1738)

Collect/Prayer of Day sung in Latin plainsong by Celebrant
Choral Responses sung to four-part polyphony
from Vopelius collection ³Neue Leipziger Gesangbuch²

Epistle: Titus 2:11-14 (The grace of God has appeared)
sung by Deacon in German to plainsong
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Read/Christmas.htm

Organ Prelude on ³Gelobet Seist Du² (BWV 314 or 604?)
Congregational Gradual Hymn of the Day (³de tempore¹,):
³Gelobet Seist Du, Jesu Christ ³
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Gelobet-seist-du.htm

Gospel choral responses sung in six-part polyphony from Vopelius collection
Gospel: Luke 2: 1-14 (Birth of Christ)
sung by Deacon in German to plainsong
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Read/Christmas.htm

Organ Prelude on ³Wir Glauben All An Einen Gott² (BWV 1098?)
Congregational Creed Chorale:
³Wir Glauben All An Einen Gott² (Luther)

Organ Prelude before Cantata
First Cantata

Organ Prelude on ³Ein Kindelein So Löbelich² (BWV 719?)
Congregational Pulpit Hymn after the Cantata (Offertory)
³Ein Kindelein So Löbelich²

Sursum Corda sung in Latin in six-part polyphony
from Vopelius collection
Preface sung in Latin by Celebrant
Sanctus (without Benedictus)
A concerted setting was sung in Latin during Christmas week.
BWV 237 C major
BWV 238 D major
BWV 239 D Minor
BWV 240 G Major (arr?)
BWV 241 D Major (Kerll?)
Hand bells rung at the altar at the end of the Sanctus
Verba (Words of Institution) sung in German plainsong by Celebrant

Second Cantata ³sub communione² during Communion?
Unknown if by Bach or other composer;
Bach¹s motet ³Lobet den Herrn² has a traditional Christmas text.

Other congregational hymns during Communion:
introduced by organ prelude:
³Ich Freue Mich In Dir² (Ziegler)
³Wir Christenleut² (Fuger)

Final Prayer & Benediction:
sung with 4 part polyphony from Vopelius

Organ Prelude on ³³Ein Kind Geborn zu Bethlehem²
Final Congregational Hymn: ³Ein Kind Geborn zu Bethlehem²
German repeat of Introit chorale

Paul T. McCain wrote (March 7, 2009):
[To Douglas Cowling] Doug, thanks for another magnificent piece of work. Frankly, your posts lately have made staying on this list an option for me, and the task of wading through the irrelevancies of the list more than worth it.

Neil Halliday wrote (March 8, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
>The scoring is the traditional Big Bach Band expected for Christmas: 3 trumpets and timpani with flutes doubling oboes. Bach does not include the bassoon part that appears in the 1733 Missa and the BMM.<
Also on the question of bassoon, from Brian Robins (All Classical Guide Website, 1992-2001; previous discussions): "The first (movement) is the opening chorus of the Mass' Gloria, both text and scoring virtually unchanged except for the omission of the bassoons in the cantata." (Notice bassoons plural, see below)

But it seems unreasonable to omit a continuo bassoon in the cantata, given the large forces.

(According to his booklet, Rilling omits the bassoon in the cantata; OTOH, I think I can hear a continuo bassoon in Koopman's cantata sample, lending more 'presence' to the continuo line compared to Rilling - can anyone confirm this?).

Two points: the majority of cantata scores do not specify a bassoon, but I presume a bassoon is normally included, eg, Rilling usually has bassoon as a member of his continuo team; and as for the Mass, 'Fagotti', ie, two bassoons, are specified in the score (Robins also uses the plural, above). Therefore Bach, with a stronger than normal bassoon timbre, might wish to omit them from time to time in the score of the Mass (when smaller vocal and/or instrumental forces are sounding), which he does. OTOH, a single bassoon in the continuo of the cantata would reasonably be expected to play throughout as usual, in both large-scale choruses. And notice the quite different scoring in the exposition of the the fugue, in the final movement of the cantata, compared to the corresponding movement in the Mass; in the latter, Bach at first reduces the instrumental forces considerably - to continuo alone - as the voices enter in fugal fashion, all of which probably explains the separate bassoon parts in the score of the Mass, but not in the cantata.

Inconcert performance, a long held final chord with drum roll, as with the first movement, seems more appropriate than the abrupt crotchet chord ending the final movement in the cantata score; perhaps this had something to do with the original liturgical setting of the cantata.

Douglas Cowling wrote (March 9, 2009):
BWV 191, Gloria in Excelsis Deo - Final Notes

Neil Halliday wrote:
< In concert performance, a long held final chord with drum roll, as with the first movement, seems more appropriate than the abrupt crotchet chord ending the final movement in the cantata score; perhaps this had something to do with the original liturgical setting of the cantata. >
Thank you for pointing out this difference between what I'll call the "long" ending in the mass and the "short" ending in the cantata. Did Bach try the short ending in the cantata and not like it, so that he reinstated the "long" ending from the 1733 Missa? It seems a logical inference.

Do we have any contemporary records about how these "short" chords were performed? There are some other famous examples: the opening and closing movements of the Magnificat, and the "Et exspecto" in the Credo of the B Minor Mass.

Conductors take a variety of approaches:

1) No ritard in the final bars and short last note. The critics howled when Richter concluded the Credo in this "over-the-cliff" fashion.

2) Ritard in the final bars and a tenuto hold on the final chord which extends the note to something approximately twice its duration. No timpani roll on final note. This seems to be the modern preference.

3) Ritard in the final bar and fermata which fills the bar. Timpani roll. Not as common.

Some conductors also have a taste for the "Baroque sniff", a break or lift between the penultimate and final notes.

Neil Halliday wrote (March 11, 2009):
Following Brian Robins statement in 'All Classical Guide Website, 1992-2001': "The first (movement) is the opening chorus of the Mass' Gloria, both text and scoring virtually unchanged except for the omission of the bassoons in the cantata", I notice that, while the first two sections of the Mass (Kyrie and Gloria) have separate bassoon parts that mostly double the continuo (occasionally they double the vocal basses), there are no continuo bassoon parts at all in the score of the remainder of the Mass (Credo, Sanctus, Hosanna etc).

This raises a couple of interesting observations: the bassoon part shown in "Weinen, Klagen" from the early cantata BWV 12 is not in the Crucifixus of the Mass; and in the Mass itself, the music of "Gratias agimus" from the Gloria has a separate line for the bassoons, whereas the same music in the closing "Dona nobus pacem" does not.

Is it possible that Bach was avoiding the extra workload of writing a nearly identical bassoon line (to the continuo), when he compiled the last sections of the Mass?

John Pike wrote (March 11, 2009):
[To Neil Halliday] Fascinating observations. Thanks for pointing this out, Neil.

Douglas Cowling wrote (March 11, 2009):
John Pike wrote:
< while the first two sections of the Mass (Kyrie and Gloria) have separate bassoon parts that mostly double the continuo (occasionally they double the vocal basses), there are no continuo bassoon parts at all in the score of the remainder of the Mass (Credo, Sanctus, Hosanna etc). >
And none at all for the same music in the parody Cantata BWV 191.

This isn't the first time that Bach's performance practice has been a mystery.

Neil asks, "Is it possible that Bach was avoiding the extra workload of writing a nearly identical bassoon line (to the continuo), when he compiled the last sections of the Mass?"

We've asked similar questions in the past:

* did the bassoon play from the same part as the cello or bass?

* did Bach have a consistent aesthetic regarding the use of the bassoon?

* does the absence of a bassoon indicate unavailability or inability?

I always have the uneasy feeling that the surviving parts aren't telling the whole story.

Ed Myskowski wrote (March 12, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
>I always have the uneasy feeling that the surviving parts aren't telling the whole story.<
I am always truly amazed at the amount of music my jazz and pop friends produce from a few scraps of paper, the merest hints of what to play. As the O*Bama (or simply post-Bush) exhuberance continues unabated, I would defy anyone to try to reconstruct a musical evening here in Salem, from the surviving parts.

Sometinmes, you just have to be there live. Apologies (yeah, sure) for the sacriligeous(?) analogy.

William Hoffman wrote (March 13, 2009):
BWV 191, Fugitive Notes

Contexts and Connections:

In a recent BCW posting, David Jones: Gardiner & BWV 126, says: "There is nothing like the sound of Lutherans going to war. Gardiner is often my first introduction to a particular cantata and I was absolutely stunned by BWV 126 and his interpretation of it. The cantata's stern, solemn words "Uphold us, Lord, by thy Word and cast down the murderous Papists and Turks who would bring down Jesus Christ, thy Son, from His throne". . . .

There is a BCW continuing question about Bach's attitude towards war and, by implication, peace. I think much of it, overtly, is related to Lutheran theology, for example, Cantata BWV 126, presented on Seximageisma Sunday, 4 February 1725. It was one of Bach's last chorale cantatas in the second cycle, followed a weekly later by another Lent-directed cantata with high trumpet, BWV 127, and with three Passion chorales in the opening chorus. It is part of an intense pre-Lent focus as Bach considered his second Leipzig Oratorio Passion presentation and, possibly its connection with the victory of Easter Sunday Resurrection with a celebratory oratorio, BWV 249(c). In a greater sense, Bach was beginning to cease the weekly production of two consecutive church-year cantata cycles and to begin to formulate the concept of a Christological Cycle, as Erich Chafe puts it, that produces in the 1730s major works involving three Oratorio Passions set to John, Matthew and Mark; at least three Festive Oratorios for Christmas, Easter, and Ascension, and five Missa settings, BWV 232-236.

The best sense of Bach's attitude toward war and peace, conflict and resolution, need and gratitude is found in his vocal music treatment of biblical and theological concepts. Much seems metaphorical, like the Reformation contest against the "hordes of devils that fill the land"; Archangel Michael's Feast Day spiritual war against Satan and the forces of evil; or the Passion struggles against human sin and death. Through it all finally comes Bach's affirmation and thanks.

Turning to Cantata BWV 191, it is a pure canticle of thanks, Doxologies, a mini-Te Deum instead of a full-blow Praise and Thanksgiving to God, which I guess, like the Requiem Mass, was a bit too much Roman Catholicity even for Leipzig's clergy.

As to a special Thanksgiving service, Bach had presented other works for similar special celebrations of either Lutheran observance or the Saxon Court. We have the three-day festival for Observance of the 200^th Anniversary of the Augsburg Confession, June 26-28, 1730, with parodies of Town-Council cantatas BWV 120a, BWV Anh. 4a, and BWV Anh. 3. Later, we have the Festive Service of Allegiance to August III, April 21, 1733, at the Thomas Church, possibly with BWV 232I, Kyrie-Gloria; and a Thanksgiving Service for the War of Polish Succession, July 6, 1734, at the Nikolas Church, possibly with BWV 248a, later parodied as BWV 248VI for Epiphany 1735. 

Christmas Cantata BWV 191 was his last documented Thanksgiving Service, in the mid-1740s, although he still did the annual service for the Installation of the Town Council in late August, as an acknowledgement of gratitude towards immediate, temporal authority. Here we have three annual cantatas in Bach's final years: BWV 137, 69, and 29, on 25 August 1749.

Now, to make a long story even longer, is Bach's personal attitude towards war and peace. There are no direct writings but various biographers and scholars havesuggested that Bach, like all Germans, was thankful for the era of peace and progress after years of desolation through religious wars, famine, fire, and plague, still lingering and threatening.
The allegiance to Catholic Saxony came with the territory, literally, and Bach, like most, rendered unto both kings, Keiser and God, producing gorgeous music for both, sometimes intermingled.

Cantata BWV 191 was not just another Christmas and Thanksgiving piece, it was a bridge, a springboard, to Bach's last major work, the Great Catholic B-Minor Mass, which he took up soon after and completed. It appears that Bach was weary of the Saxon Court, especially the latest war which included the occupation of Leipzig. He no longer directed its resident ensemble, the Collegium musicum, or with them presented Saxon celebratory cantatas. He oldest son, Fridemann, moved on from Dresden to Halle; and son C.P.E., after law studies in Frankfurt, had taken up permanent residency at the Prussian Court, which Sebastian finally visited and to which he produced a tribute.

Still, Bach had some unfinished business. To the Kyrie and Gloria with its three uplifting movements transformed into canticles, he produced the central extended statement of belief, affirmation and allegiance to God, added the celebratory Sanctus of 1724-25 with an Osanna parody from the Saxon Court, produced another Lamb of God like his Passion music, and literally re-sounded a final, Grant Us Peace with entering trumpets and drums, previously sung as the "Gratias agimus tibi" in the Missa Gloria and the opening "We thank three, God," of Council Cantata BWV 29.

Thanks in part to Cantata BWV 191, Bach had come full circle, launching a mighty arrow into the modern world, at times a hell on earth, a paradise to be regained through struggle.

William Rowland (Ludwig) wrote (March 13, 2009):
[To William Hoffman] Please tell us what "&#8232" means. please. These days with a few word substitutions the libretto could be updated to modern times.

Douglas Cowling wrote (March 13, 2009):
BWV 191, Bach & Te DEUM

Ludwig (actually William Hoffman) wrote:
< a mini-Te Deum instead of a full-blow Praise and Thanksgiving to God, which I guess, like the Requiem Mass, was a bit too much Roman Catholicity even for Leipzig's clergy. >
The Te Deum was sung in Luther's adaptation of the Gregorian melody as "Herr Gott Wir Loben Dich" (Das Deutsche Tedeum) in pretty much the same way as in the Catholic liturgy: as a canticle at Matins and as a stand-alone piece on special occasions such as New Year's Day (BWV 16 uses the chorale) or civic celebrations. Bach wrote an elaborate 4-part choral setting (BWV 328), presumably for such occasions. The organ could also replace the choir for a Te Deum (an survival of the old medieval 'alternatim' practice of alternating plainsong verses with organ verses.) Bach's massive chorale-prelude (BWV 725) which includes all the liturgical repetitions could well have been written for a special thanksgiving.

Ed Myskowski wrote (March 13, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote:
>Still, Bach had some unfinished business. To the Kyrie and Gloria with its three uplifting movements transformed into canticles, he produced the central extended statement of belief, affirmation and allegiance to God, added the celebratory Sanctus of 1724-25 with an Osanna parody from the Saxon Court, produced another Lamb of God like his Passion music, and literally re-sounded a final, Grant Us Peace with entering trumpets and drums, previously sung as the "Gratias agimus tibi" in the Missa Gloria and the opening "We thank three, God," of Council Cantata BWV 29.<
From a 21^st C. (or 09 CEC) perspective, there is a certain irony that the fundamental Christian ceremony, the Mass, should conclude with <Dona Nobis Pacem>, after two millenia of almost constant warfare to enforce and extend the Faith (see Derek Wilson, <Charlemagne>, for an up to date, concise and readable summary).

It is difficult to ignore Bachs mature emphasis on the Biblical dictum: <Where there is music, there is God> as a simple and profound statement of his spiritual thinking. Has anyone ever gone to war over diagreements about music? Perhaps my resident mockingbird would be willing to give it a go.

Paul Farseth wrote (March 13, 2009):
Music, Bach, Civlity, and Peace

This responds to Ed and Will (attached below).

Readers who are interested in Ed and Will's thread about music, Bach, and peaceable life in a civil and civilized community might like to have a look at some of the poetry and essays of the (recently deceased) Bill Holm, a bigger-than-life Icelandic American poet, Bach lover, harpsichordist, and professor.? He loved both Bach and Haydn, wrote that "Whoever loves G Major loves God.", and visits Bach's and Haydn's music constantly in his poetry.? See especially his last book of poetry, PLAYING THE BLACK PIANO and his last book of essays THE WINDOWS OF BRIMNESS.??

Also relevant to the discussion are W.H. Auden's poems "The Composer" and "Luther".

Ed Myskowski wrote (March 13, 2009):
Paul Farseth wrote:
>Also relevant to the discussion are W.H. Auden's poems "The Composer" and "Luther".<
Thanks for this recommendation, as well as Bill Holms writings. I expect to get to these and post some thoughts, in due time (i.e., manana).

William Hoffman wrote (March 13, 2009):
Cantata 191: Responses et al

1. Doug Cowling: Thank you for the information on Luther's German Te Deum and Bach's wonderful music, as well as their vesper uses. I regret that Bach's setting is not found in Lutheran hymn books and the English translations not attributed (LBW, ELW). My favorite translation is from Handel's Dettingen Te Deum; the German and English fit the music perfectly: "Lord God, we praise thee: Herr, Gott. Dir sei Lob!" I can't find the text sources, in either Novello or Edition Peters scores.

2. To Ed Myskowski: I'm looking up the source of "Dona nobis pacem" to see if it pre-dates Charlemagne. Meanwhile, I am reminded of what jazz critic and writer Gene Lees said 50 years ago: "A cynic is an idealist with shattered dreams." No offense intended.

3. To Paul Farseth. There are some wonderful musical poets, especially Auden, who wrote canticles set by Britten. I'm sure there are many others and I will celebrate them as I encounter them. Also, there's a an extended essay, something about "Reflections at Night on Mahler's Ninth Symphony." I'm sure we've only scratched the surface, or rubbed it -- which I call foreplay!

4. To David Jones addendum on BVWV 126-Gardiner -- Right on, both of you! In fact, I just reread Uri Golomb's 2/27-28 postings on Multiple Approaches (foreplay?) to Bach: "Bach's most elaborate and complex works are often profoundly expressive, not despite their complexity but because of it. . . ." Your BWV 126 postings, Uri's thesis grounding, and my research on Bach's SMP led me to re-read last night Bruno Walter's essay "Notes on Bach's St. Matthew Passion" (general plan, interpretation, liberties, ornaments) in <Of Music and Music-Making> (Norton 1957/61). What insight, wisdom, and generosity of spirit -- from a Jew who treasured a most-Christian (?universal) work. I will try to summarize Walter's most salient thoughts and observations in my forthcoming BCW SMP annotated bibliography and remarks (fugitive notes) on the SMP's genesis and spiritual sources (lyrics and chorales). It's all about a half-century of contexts and connections, and I am still learning.

Ed Myskowski wrote (March 13, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote [citing Gene Lees]
< "A cynic is an idealist with shattered dreams." No offense intended. >
No offense taken (intended or not). George Bernard Shaw wrote (I paraphrase): Those with keen powers of observation and analysis are called *cynics* by those lacking such powers.

Having just come from reading Derek Wilson on Charlemagne, I can almost imagine Pope Leo on Xmas Day, 800 AD, saying exactly that to Charles as he crowned him with the burden of *defending* the Church. I guess you had to be there.

William Hoffman wrote (March 18, 2009):
Cantata 191/126: Pacem

To Ed Myskowski: I'm looking up the source of "Dona nobis pacem" to see if it pre-dates Charlemagne -- 742 to 814.

Now, Wikipedia: Liturgy

"In the Mass of the Roman Rite and also in the Eucharist of the Anglican Communion, the Lutheran Church, and the Western Rite of the Orthodox Church the Agnus Dei is the invocation to the Lamb of God sung or recited during the fraction of the Host.[1] It is said to have been introduced into the Mass by Pope Sergius I (687-701). "

So, Dona nobis pacem, the ending of the Agnus Dei, beat old Charlie by half a century.

Also, Wikipedia has numerous examples of musical settings of Dona nobis pacem, beginning with BWV 232. For me, there's the Missa Solemnis and Bernsetin's Mass (3 versions now), as well as Sam Barber's choral setting of his Adagio for Strings. I assume these responses may help to relieve us a little bit of old Charlie's burden, as well as the Crusades, the Spanish conquest of Latin America, etc. We keep trying, marching, holding candles.

For me, it's all about faith, not belief -- there's a distinction. In Bill Moyer's PBS series, Belief and Doubt, one of the speakers said: Belief without doubt is either nostalgia or obsession.
Amen.

Ed Myskowski wrote (March 13, 2009):
On a personal note, with the intent of averting misunderstandings, I point out that in 1986 I chose the epitaph <Dona Nobis Pacem> for my mother-in-laws memorial stone. She was of no particular denomination, she communicated directly with God.

For a credible history of the Agnus Dei (including DNP), see: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01221a.htm

including the following, re musical treatments:

<The text of the Agnus Dei, triple in repetition, and, therefore, possessing its own rights of textual symmetry, was respected by the medieval composers; and the one facts which, in this respect, discriminates their forms of treatment from those of the master-composers of modern church music, is the absence of any separate treatment of the "Dona nobis pacem", that grand finale movement in which the moderns have been so accustomed to assemble all their energies of technique, voices, and instruments, and to which they assign a movement entirely different from the preceding one. Familiar examples of this are found in Bach's great Mass in B-minor, where the first two Agnus Deis are alto solos, followed by the "Dona" in four-part fugue.>

It is not much of a stretch to suggest that Bach saw his music as a force for peace among men, and his emphasis on DNP was an innovation.

As to whether the phrase DNP predates Charlemagne, I would suggest that the more relevant point is that the format of the mass was not standardized prior to 800 AD. Indeed, one of Charlemagnes spiritual objectives was just such standardization, in the nascent *European* Church. It is one of Derek Wilsons conclusions that Charlemagne effectively created the concept of Europe. It would be an interesting investigation to determine if Charlemagnes standard mass included the interpolation of DNP. Based on Wills report (via Wikipedia) of its introduction by Pope Sergius (687-701), the working hypothesis would be *yes*.

I stand by my original point re the irony of <Dona Nobis Pacem* and the history of European Christianity. As we used to say during the Vietnam *War* (unofficial, or illegal, take your pick): <Fighting for peace is like [rude word for sexual intercourse] for chastity.> Remains applicable in year 09 CEC.

Cantata BWV 191: Complete Recordings | Recordings of Individual Movements | Discussions

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Last update: ýMarch 23, 2009 ý06:54:37