|
Recordings & Discussions of Cantatas : Cantatas BWV 1-50 | Cantatas BWV 51-100 | Cantatas BWV 101-150 | Cantatas BWV 151-200 | Cantatas BWV 201-224 | Cantatas BWV Anh | Order of Discussion |
|
Recordings & Discussions of Cantatas : Cantatas BWV 1-50 | Cantatas BWV 51-100 | Cantatas BWV 101-150 | Cantatas BWV 151-200 | Cantatas BWV 201-224 | Cantatas BWV Anh | Order of Discussion |
Cantata BWV 178
Wo Gott derr Herr nicht bei uns hält
Discussions
|
Discussions in the Week of August 5, 2001 |
|
Aryeh Oron wrote (August 8, 2001):Background This is the week of Cantata BWV 178 according to Peter Bloemendaal, the first one in his proposed list of cantatas for discussion. The two illustrative movements in this cantata are Mvt. 1, which illustrates a battle, and Mvt. 3, which illustrates a storm. We have met those situations in previous weekly discussions. The war, for example, is the subject of Cantata BWV 14 Wär Gott nicht mit uns diese Zeit Other cantatas, and storm indifferent permutations is the subject of some movements in Cantata BWV 81 Jesus schläft, was soll ich hoffen? I am tempted to do comparison between the various ways in which Bach chooses to treat similar subjects in different cantatas, but limitation of time prevents me of doing it. I shall be happy to see other members of the BCML jump in. As a background to the review of the recordings of these two movements I shall use the always illuminating books of Alec Robertson and Murray W. Young. The Recordings I am aware of 4 complete recordings of this cantata and last week I have been listening to them all. See: Cantata BWV 178 - Recordings. [1] Helmuth Rilling (1978+1972) (2) Karl Richter (1975-1977) (3) Nikolaus Harnoncourt (1988) (4) Pieter Jan Leusink (1999) Mvt. 1 - Chorus Robertson wrote: “The enemy the libretto attacks is Christians who have become false prophets against whom the faithful are exhorted to fought with sure hope that the foe will be defeated. Bach sounds the call to battle – without recourse to trumpets – in the tremendously vigorous orchestral introduction. It combines most effectively at various points, in all parts, a dotted quaver rhythm and rushing semiquavers and through the tumult their first line of the chorale rings out confidently, with a sustained chord at ‘holds’. The second line depicts the rage of the foe.” Young wrote: “Psalm 124 provides the text for this opening choral fantasia; all instruments play a spirited call to battle against the false prophets. Their orchestral introduction is a prelude to the entry of the choir, whose parts are sung in syncopated imitation.” (1) You believe Rilling that he has prepared his army to the battle as best as he could. The soldiers are full of energy; their weapons are sharp and tuned. They will blow any enemy or false prophet to his bones. (2) Even before hearing his rendition, I knew that Richter is going to excel in this movement, because this type of movement suits very well his general approach. Here he is even better than Rilling is, because he has Rilling’s good virtues. But to them he also adds a sweeping flow, which will throw out of the way any potential enemy. (3) Harnoncourt’s rendition reminds me a picture of battle in an old English movie, in which the soldiers step ahead in one line. They put one leg forward simultaneously, then the second leg joins it and stops. Movement, stop, movement, stop, etc. No one can win a war with such ridiculous movements. (4) Leusink sends to the battle vivid, alert and lightweight legion. They are not very organized, but they seem to have the energy, which will give them the power and the courage to fight vigorously. Rating – Richter (2), Rilling (1), Leusink (4), Harnoncourt (3) Mvt. 3 - Aria for Bass Robertson wrote: “Bach seizes the imagery to depict a spiritual fight at sea as vividly as the battle on land in Mvt.1. The foe plan to sink ‘Christ’s little ship’. Bach paints the surge and thunder of the waves, also giving long pictorial phrases to the soloist on ‘sea-waves’.” Young wrote: “Accompanied by unison violins, the bass depicts a storm at sea in which the enemy, metaphorically the waves, seeks to chatter Christ’s little ship. Bach’s ability to paint a realistic picture in sound is well demonstrated in this number.“ (1) Schöne sounds here as the right man for the job. He is courageous, he is strong and he knows what to do in order to overcome the threatening waves. (2) DFD's voice (with Richter) has less volume than Schöne has. One might think that he is less suitable to this kind of role. But the clever DFD knows exactly how to overcome his own limitations and compensates by impressive expression. Like a soldier (or commander?) who seems apparently less powerful, but convince you with his charisma and native authority that he can win the battle. (3) Robert Holl (with Harnoncourt) has an impressive and authoritative (and warm) voice. He can overcome any obstacle. No wave frightens him. Especially with the kind of light and half-broken waves as illustrated by Harnoncourt. (4) Surprisingly, Leusink's rendition of this aria reminds me that of Harnoncourt. Ramselaar puts less volume and energy into his singing and consequently sounds less convincing than Holl is. On second thought and the last round of listening, the movements of the waves and the singing of Ramselaar in this rendition sound really tired. Rating – Schöne/Rilling (1) = Richter/Fischer-Dieskau (2), Holl/Harnoncourt (3), Leusink/Ramselaar (4) Conclusion See above. And as always, I would like to hear other opinions, regarding the above mentioned performances, or other recordings. |
|
Thomas Braatz wrote (August 9, 2001):With the exception of an extensive quotation from Eric Chafe's book on "Tonal Allegory in J.S.Bach," I will dispense with the usual chronological approach citing numerous sources from the past and present, in order to try something different. Background: See: Cantata BWV 178 - Provenance Commentary on each movement See: Cantata BWV 178 - Commentary Review of the Recordings This week I have listened to the following recordings: Rilling (1972,1982), Richter (1975-77), Harnoncourt (1988), and Leusink (1999) Mvt. 1 Choral (Chorus) As a test of accuracy on the conductor's part in reading the score [not that accuaracy is the only thing that is important in a performance, but it is to me an indicator of a respectful attitude toward Bach's intentions that comes from examining the score carefully and making certain that his indications are observed carefully,] I have chosen measure 82 (for those of you without the score, you can spot this by listening carefully to the word, "ist," at the end of the phrase, "wo er Israel Schutz nicht ist." On this last word, which begins in measure 80, two measures earlier than the point in question, the cantus firmus (soprano and corno (horn)) has a whole note tied to another whole note (81), which in turn is tied to a final quarter note in measure 82 the first note in that measure (on the normally accented beat of that measure.) While the cantus firmus is holding this note, the other voices repeat "wo er Israel Schutz nicht ist" on eighth notes, and their final note at the beginning of 82 is an eighth note, not a quarter as in the cantus firmus. You should be able to hear the sopranos and horn continue singing their quarter note longer than the other voices which have only an eighth note. Interpretations vary, as they should if we want to understand how Bach tried to make the words cto life musically. I perceive a range between one extreme that is almost legato despite the dotted rhythms and the other which exaggerates the rhythms and punctuates the musical line with heavy accents in order to realistically portray the 'raging of the enemy.' The former reminds me more of Dürer's "Ritter, Tod, und Teufel," emphasizing more the staunch resoluteness of a Christian in the face of these enemies, while the latter is more of a realistic opera production where the sound effects are created by the chorus and ensemble, and not back stage where you would normally expect them to be. Another place to listen for is the remarkable unison (octaves) on the word, 'hält' ('hold'.) Is everyone singing in tune? (1) Rilling: When the choir sings "wenn unsre Feinde toben," the soprano line becomes less clear than it should be because the vibrato here creates a 'gurgly' sound. Similar passages occur later on in this mvt. and detract from what should be a presentation of firm resolve and endurance that is expressed best of all in a firmly clear cantus firmus that does not waver. Rilling has the tenor stand out a bit more on the words, "Feinde toben" and "Feinde List," a nice touch to express the words properly, a factor that Bach accounted for by having the tenor voice suddenly reaching for the notes in the high part of its range. The tempo, perhaps somewhat slow when compared with the other recordings, moves inexorably toward the conclusion. The presentation is stately, and yet quite energetic, even at this slower tempo. The enemy may rage, but it does not get the upperhand at any time. Dürer's image comes to mind. The knight is not charging violently into battle; he recognizes the enemies as the horse moves firmly forward. Rilling passes the measure 82 and unison tests. (2) Richter: On the positive side: the cantus firmus in the soprano is loud and clear thereby lending a note of affirmation that is needs when singing a chorale such as this. This version, a bit faster than Rilling's, is exciting in its own way despite the fact that orchestral sound is generally smoother, more legato, notwithstanding the dotted rhythms. Richter passes the measure 82 test. In a general sense, this version is successful in conveying the conviction that carries the believer through the difficult conditions created by the 'raging enemies,' but underneath the surface lurk not only the 'raging enemies,' but also some rather serious performance problems: Let's begin with the shrill organ sound, the only purpose of which is to try to help the choir members stay together and sing at the correct pitch. Whenever I hear the organ duplicating the vocal parts and using mixture stops, I have the feeling that the choir did not have sufficient rehearsal time. The final proof of an ill-prepared performance is in the instrumental ensemble which also has its share of difficulties. Richter begins 'rushing' (attempting to increase the tempo) at the end of the first choral phrase. This insecurity caused either by the instrumentalists and vocalists dragging the tempo or by the conductor not establishing a firm tempo that he can maintain without slowing down only to have to accelerate again to make up for the dragging tempo. The result of all of this is that there are sections where the choir or the orchestra are not singing and playing together. A general sloppiness in attacking the correct note at the correct time ensues. The conductor's task becomes more difficult as he attempts to 'reign them in.' The dotted rhythm which predominates in this mvt. is sloppily executed. Listen to the violins when they have the pattern of parallel thirds moving downward. It is noticeable that they are not playing together. The same occurs with the voices when they have running 16th notes. The intonation between the organ and the choir is off, that is, the organ will sound flat compared to the voices. This means the unison on ''hält'' will also not be in tune. Balance: there are times when the orchestral parts (not the bc) can not be heard behind the voices, and this is by no means a 'skeleton' orchestra with only one instrument to a part. This gives you an idea of how large the choir must be. Add to this a church (or is it a theater) organ duplicating the vocal parts, then it is no small wonder that this will happen. Ah, for the transparency of a HIP recording, where all parts can be more easily heard! (3) Harnoncourt: This version and Leusink's are a semitone lower. Harnoncourt's idea seems to be to create a Baroque sounding operatic performance which has as its main purpose to effectively illustrate musically the 'raging enemies' and not to consider the importance of the undaunted, but yet somewhat concerned, believer who stands firmly amidst all the raging turmoil. What one hears here is the onslaught of the menacing enemy being met by God's forces and the ensuing battle with the 'chop chop' of flying swords and the heads rolling on the ground. Having a purpose and trying to execute this prevailing idea successfully are two distinct tasks, in the latter of which Harnoncourt fails mainly because in pursuing his goal he asks too much of the musicians who are 'unable to deliver the goods.' This begins in the instrumental introduction where the players are having serious problems with the dotted rhythms. The bc is very thumpy as a result of strong accentuation and staccato delivery. The oboes (here we are close to end of the almost two decade period that it took to record the complete set of cantatas) still have not learned how to play their instruments properly. I do not think that Bach would have allowed the oboes to play with such wailing tones that are obviously out of tune at times. The choir here is being taxed beyond its limits, and pushed beyond its capacity to deliver this great music in a musically listenable form. On the word "Feinde" they are literally shouting, not singing the words. On the dotted rhythms, ("wenn unsre" and "im Himmel hoch,") the lower three voices do not create a musically definable pitch. Overall the sound of the orchestra and choir is rather crude and cheap. If there is one thing that I hear being expressed, it is anger. Perhaps this should be the anger of the raging enemy, but I also think that there is the anger of some frustrated musicians who feel that they are being used [pun intended] to create sounds that are anything but truly musical. On the unison test Harnoncourt did well. It helps to have the strong soprano and alto boy's voices who are trained to sing without vibrato, for the most part. The other test at measure 82 was failed, or perhaps very muddy and unclear, since one never knows with Harnoncourt what his note values are in performance and what is happening at the end of a phrase in the unaccented position. (4) Leusink: This is more of a lightweight performance with the instrumental ensemble (the exception of the usual bumpy bass that is too loud must be considered) performing quite well musically. Strange that the cantus firmus of a boy's choir should be so weak even when fortified with the horn, in particular this happens when the others are 'raging' (singing the word, "toben.") The unison on "hält" is cleaner than in the other versions, but the test in measure 82 was missed entirely. What can one expect when the cantatas are recorded in such a short time? Mvt. 2 Recitative + Chorale (alto) (4) Leusink: Buwalda has a thin reedy voice which is well suited for singing the simple lines of the choral, but he is unable to get through the recitative without yodeling. There is not much in the way of expression to be heard. (3) Harnoncourt: Iconomou has had some excellent performances in this series, but here the voice has become insecure as he has considerable trouble trying to control his vibrato. This happens particularly in the higher range of his voice. (2) Richter: Hamari - excellent. (1) Rilling: Here the chorale is sung by the alto section and Schreckenbach only gets to sing the recitative sections, which she succeeds in performing extremely well. Mvt. 3 Aria (bass) (1) Rilling: Schöne has a full voice that definitely commands respect. Rilling takes this mvt. at a very comfortable tempo (not too fast.) (2) Richter: Fischer-Dieskau has to keep up with this faster tempo that Richter has established. At times there is the feeling of being rushed, a feeling that becomes stronger when the melismas are forced to be sung so quickly. Fischer-Dieskau starts the aria with his usual excellence (singing technique, sound projection, expression of the words,) but when he gets to the words, "raset" and "zerscheitern" he goes overboard (pun intended) with his dramatics. This is one of the few aspects of Fischer-Dieskau's singing style that I do not like. He sounds as if he is shouting and his voice 'barks.' In his defense, I do think that Richter's faster tempo and a very heavy, loud basso continuo helped to create a difficult singing situation for Fischer-Dieskau. There are limits to every human voice, and when this voice is pushed too hard or too far, the results are ugly, musically speaking. (3) Harnoncourt: Holl may also be overproducing here with the organ being much to loud. His voice sounds raspy at times, and when he sings the melismas some of the sounds emanating from his throat are undefinable from the standpoint of notes/pitch. (4) Leusink: This version is slower, but a very thick, heavy bass remains. No dynamic changes are observed which makes it even more difficult for Ramselaar, whose voice is probably the weakest in this group, having less volume than the others, particularly in the lower range. He makes a few attempts to get some expression in his voice. Mvt. 4 Choral & 6 Aria (Tenor) (4) Leusink: (4) The oboi d'amore are played very well here and there is a good balance. Leusink even manages to keep the basso continuo light so that it does not obscure the voice. Schoch sings the chorale with a clear voice that penetrates sufficiently to be heard in a church setting. He is well-suited for singing chorales of this type. (6) Now the bc is too heavy and thick. Also the tempo is much too fast. Poor Schoch has to hurry through all the words, as they become secondary to keeping up with Leusink's tempo. The melismas are too fast, and should have been an indication to Leusink to restrain the tempo. (3) Harnoncourt: (4) The bc never plays piano as indicated. This does not leave Equiluz any choice but to overexert his voice and produce a fast vibrato. Despite his efforts, the bc still manages to cover his voice at times. (6) Harnoncourt's slightly slower tempo is a relief and his efforts to express angularity with emphasis on the accents and syncopation are entirely appropriate here, but why does he have to have such thick and heavy bass instruments? This is already a difficult aria for Equiluz to sing, the type of aria that requires a number of sudden thrusts at the top of his voice ("Schweig'"), but Harnoncourt makes it even more difficult for Equiluz. Poor Equiluz is forced to bark out the commands ("Schweig'") which do not sound musical enough here (too much expression at the expense of the music.) He uses too much vibrato and in the low range he has hardly any volume left. The only part that is reasonably good (better than Schoch's) is the middle section where Bach reduces the instrumental ensemble termporarily. (2) Richter: (4) The tempo is fast, but Schreier does very well here nevertheless. (6) This tempo is slower yet than the others, but it is a good tempo in that it allows Schreier more opportunity for expressing the words. All the words are given meaning as Schreier has a chance to form the words and the present them to the listener. This performance is not as angular as the others. (1) Rilling: (4) Here is Equiluz singing the same mvts. 16 years earlier. The tempo is slow. Here Equiluz has a stronger voice, but it is not being used to its best advantage in singing the straight, long notes of a chorale, Since the instruments do not cut back in volume as they should, he needs to overproduce somewhat to the detriment of his voice. Equiluz does better when he has words that allow him to express himself more vocally. (6) This is better than the earlier Harnoncourt version, but Equiluz is still pushing his voice too much at times. His expression is better here than in the earlier version. Equiluz is not as well suited for performing this type of aria (with the exception of the middle section) containing short, strongly accented notes and sudden large interval leaps produced at full volume. Mvt. 5 Choral et Recitativo (1) Rilling: The bc is overdone, Rilling has taken this a bit too far and the attempt at expression in the voices of the choir also fails because the sopranos' vibratos become even more noticeable and the tenors are straining to reach the notes. The soloists in the recitative: alto (Schreckenbach) passable; tenor (Baldin) impossible; bass (Schöne) good. (2) Richter: This version is lighter and faster. The organ is 'out-of-tune' or I suppose you could say the the choir is going 'sharp.' This interpretation seems to work, however the recitative passages with choir seem questionable. (3) Harnoncourt: If you want to hear what Mattheson is talking about when he refers to the "Schreihälse" ("those who scream instead of really trying to sing,") you have an example of this here. Here the dramatics are overdone to such a degree that it is no longer convincing, it is, on the contrary, rather disgusting. The basso continuo is, however, exciting because it is well done. This is one area that Harnoncourt usually understands because he has had the necessary experience, which is not the case with choral singing, however. (4) Leusink: This version is not as exciting as Harnoncourt's, but it is musically clearer. Unfortunately Leusink has problems with intonation and balance: the sopranos are 'sharp,' the yodelers appear at times, and suddenly certain notes are louder than others because the voices are not under control. Mvt. 7 Choral (4) Leusink: Aside from the usual problem of foreshortening the values of certain fermatas, and besides the unusual special accent on "Feinde" which seems out of place here, the main problem is with German diction. The choir should not be dropping the second syllable of a word such as "Erden" and transforming it into a schwa. (3) Harnoncourt: Because of his heavy accent on the words, "Gedanken" and "wanken," there is an extreme reduction of volume at the end of a phrase. While Harnoncourt may think he is adding strength to the musical line, it has just the opposite effect: it indicates a lack of commitment or strength to be able to hold on (remember "hält" in Mvt. 1?) By singing "Die Welt laß immer murren" at a louder volume level than the final line "da du wirst selber trösten," Harnoncourt is giving the victory to the enemy, instead of emphasizing the strength that we now receive from God. This performance is somewhat better than Leusink's because the voices are clear and in balance. (2) Richter: Disregarding the shrill organ that Richter uses to duplicate the choral lines, and disregarding the typical Richter fermatas which are too long, we have here a version sung with conviction and a solid belief in the words (feeble attempts at dramatic effects here.) This feeling is conveyed to the listener, who then is moved to want to join in with this 'congregation.' (1) Rilling: This version is slower with shorter fermatas, but it is also a very solid performance. Summary Pick and choose from a variety of performances. |
|
Marie Jensen wrote (August 11, 2001):Cantata BWV 178 "Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält" and BWV 114 "Ach lieben Christen seid getrost" ar based on the same both strong and melancholic tune . I like BWV 114 better. It has been one of my favourites for many years, and seems more a whole, but when Richters Bach-choir breaks through the fences in enthusiastic Lutheran* power, I cannot resist , but walk behind them in my imagination through the streets demonstrating against the false prophets and the devil. They do more times here. Mvt. 3 the bass aria "Gleichwie die wilden Meereswellen" of course is inspired by the sea. I cannot help comparing with a Flute Concerto by Vivaldi "La Tempesta di Mare" RV 433. Not that I want to find a winner, but did Bach ever see the sea? Bach was in Lübeck when he visited Buxtehude. It is a small cosy harbour at the river Trave some kilometers from its mouth in The Baltic Sea, and he had more times been to Hamburg situated at the Elb, a much broader river, but the sea.. not really. Vivaldi’s Venezia is situated in a big and sometimes windy lagoon not far away from the Adriatic. Perhaps Bach went the last kilometers to see the sea, but I believe he was more interested in organs . Aryeh would like list members to compare how Bach treats similar objects in different cantatas. I am not competent, but I am just wondering how Bach musically describes things he never had seen. fex: camels, perhaps oceans, the river Jordan, and a lamb in tiger claws... what an imagination! Richter’s version (2) is best. The waves are wild. Leusink’s (4) orchestra and Ramselaar are swaying from side to side on more gentle waters. * I just wonder. Richter’s choir (2) is from München in the catholic part of Germany. To me nothing sounds more confirmed Lutheran . Even "The Choir of The Red Army" cannot beat it in enthusiasm. Are Richter’s and BTW Rilling’s choirs (1) from Southern Germany (Stuttgart) catholic or protestant institutions? |
|
Eitan Loew wrote (August 18, 2001):Sorry for reacting a little late, but I received the Cantata BWV 178 that I had ordered on-line only this week. I have read the mails in reference only after listening to it. < Marie Jensen wrote: I am not competent , but I am just wondering how Bach musically describes things he never had seen. fex: camels, perhaps oceans, the river Jordan, and a lamb in tiger claws... what an imagination! > A great artist does not have necessarily to describe scenes that he had visualized personally, thus not resemble reality, yet it may be of great value. Living where most of the scenes of the bible happened, I can assure you that the landscapes depicted in the great paintings created over the centuries have nothing to do, whatsoever, with the landscapes of this country. However, it does not undermine these works a bit! I guess that the same goes for music. < * I just wonder. Richter’s choir is from München in the catholic part of Germany. To me nothing sounds more confirmed Lutheran . Even "The Choir of The Red Army" cannot beat it in enthusiasm. Are Richter’s and BTW Rilling’s choirs from Southern Germany ( Stuttgart) catholic or protestant institutions? > Does it matter? Does one have to be of the same faith in order to perform a piece in the best way? |
|
For continuation of this discussion, which exceeds the scope of Cantata BWV 178, see: Bach and Religion - Part 2 [General Topics]. |
|
Discussions in the Week of July 16, 2006 |
|
Aryeh Oron wrote (July 15, 2006):I was asked by Peter Smaill, who enjoys his vacation in France these days, to send his intro to the discussion of Cantata BWV 178. The cantata discussion is scheduled for the week of July 16, 2006. I would like to use this opportunity to thank Eric Bergerud, who has led the cantata discussions during the past 10 weeks. I hope to see many of you participating in the discussion. |
|
Peter Smaill wrote (July 15, 2006):Cantata BWV 178, "Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält" - Intro to discussion July 16, 2006
|
|
Julian Mincham wrote (July 16, 2006):What a fantastic opening chorus. But I will resist temptation and leave others to comment upon it. Comment upon three striking movements only. BWV 178/3 It is instructive to compare the third movement (bass aria) with its counterpart (tenor aria) in Cantata BWV 81 from the first cycle. Both are depictions of the savage foaming ocean's waters battering the faithful Christian. Both are extremely demanding vocal parts, both (perhaps surprisingly) are based in major keys and both make use of tempestuous string parts to represent the rage of the driven sea. The earlier aria, however, uses the images of storms and tempests as a background to the true believer's monumental (and ultimately successful) struggle towards the haven of the shore, representing a position safety and security. This aria has a slightly different focus. The image of the storm at sea is less a metaphor of the struggle to find faith and more a simile of comparison with the encroaching enemies who aim to divert us from it. Both arias stretch the techniques of the singers to their ultimates and this in itself is an expression of stress and effort. But the bass aria is slightly less frenetic and the constantly repeated notes in the strings portray a sense of persistent inevitability. The almost suicidal runs and melismas continue the idea of enemy hordes from the opening chorus. They also convey the sense of effort required to resist both temptation and the lures of the enemies surging around us. BWV 178/5 Mention has been made of Bach's various experiments with the setting of long tracts of text---more of this ahortly. There are two examples in this cantata and others may have been noted is Cantatas BWV 93 and BWV 94---Bach is clearly pre-occupied with this area of experimentation at this time This movement introduces further experimental elements in that whilst in BWV 178/2 the chorale was presented as a single melodic line, here it is fully harmonized, in four parts, mucas we would expect at the end. Furthermore, the recitative here is not in relatively free rhythm but keeps to the same tempo, evidenced by the unrelenting accompaniment figure driving all sections. Finally, Bach makes use of alto, tenor and bass voices for the recitative interpolations (why no soprano, one wonders?) instead of confining them to a single voice. BWV 178/6 What an original movement! The opening ritornello gives us a preview of what is to come. The rhythm is pointed and disjointed, the phrases extended and lacking the symmetry of the more common four bar phrase. The odd phrase lengths and broken rhythms result in a melody of great dramatic power. The key word is 'taumelnde'---reeling or staggering------- be quiet, staggering reason and do not say that the pious are lost:- they are saved by the power of the cross. Clearly the opening bars depict an inebriated reeling but yet combined with a commanding voice: 'be silent' is a clear and imperious command. But if the ritornello is unusual, the first seven bar tenor phrase has no counterpart in music of the time. It is not a melody in the conventional sense. The tenor seems to pick notes out of the air; rhythmical, one can never be quite certain upon which beat the next note will fall. Listen to these bars and then try to sing them yourself, If you get the rhythm immediately right, first time, I would suggest you have an exceptionally good ear. More likely the exercise will bring about an enhanced respect for Bach's singers who would have been expected to learn and perform such convoluted lines in a matter of days! This is the precursor to the pointillism of the Twentieth Century, a technique of seemingly picking notes from the air and employed by Webern, Berio, Nono and others. Once again Bach was far ahead of the game. Remarkable is the change of mood for the words 'Denn denen, die Jesum Hoffen'---those putting faith in Jesus. Here Bach temporarily abandons several of the characteristics of the first section in order to convey a more tranquil and less hectic mood. Minor becomes major, the phrases are more symmetrical and the unpredictable rhythmic outbursts are replaced by a more flowing, even quaver movement The disjointedness returns to conclude the movement in a loose ternary form structure. But the feeling of comfort which the cross and the Lord provides will be reaffirmed in the chorale's closing stanza. |
|
Eric Bergerud wrote (July 16, 2006):Peter Smaill wrote: < Outstanding Questions 1) The apparent intrusion into the chorale text to produce an anti-enlightenment bias is textually remarkable; Wolff's belief in the attribution of the libretto to Andreas Stübel raises the issue of the extent to which Leipzig >at this time had divided into factions for and against the "Aufklärung". Do we know anything more of Stübel's background? 2) No soprano solo, in fact, in any Cantata for this Sunday, though of course there are treble voices in the chorus and Chorale. Is this for any known cause? Eric Bergerud earlier noted that BWV 20 and BWV 2 of the same series likewise omitted a soprano aria, as does BWV 7, and BWV 135, but there is one in the Magnificat setting BWV 10 (2 July), BWV 93 (9 July), BWV 107 (23 July) and BWV 94 (6 August). > Obviously one can only speculate, but I don't see that an "anti-enlightenment bias" is remarkable in the least. The Enlightenment came in many guises some people took bigger doses of it than others. To the extent that the Enlightenment is to be equated with reason and religion, the theological bias goes straight to the heart of Luther's teachings. Indeed, the very core is on display. Luther went out of his way to pour scorn on the followers of St. Thomas who held that an understanding and appreciation of the workings of the natural world affirmed the glory of God's creation and plan. (This is why, btw, that historians of science in the past decade have repeatedly attacked the idea, so common in 19th & 20th century Protestant and secular circles, that Mother Church was hostile to scientific inquiry for most of it's history. The opposite was the case.) Luther considered it conceit to attempt to "prove" the existence of God and the truth of Christ's message through reason. This revelation came exclusively through faith according to Luther. (This also explains Brother Martin's particular affection for the Gospel of John which stresses faith. What I've never understood, however, is why the same Gospel didn't puncture Luther's rejection of free will.) This didn't make the Evangelical movement hostile to scientific inquiry. It did, however, create theological wall between observing the natural world and using these observations to validate matters that can only come from faith through the Holy Spirit. For what it's worth the famous physicist Freeman Dyson has just made exactly the same argument in the most recent issue of New York Review of Books. Dyson and Gary Willis are the journal's token theists, no doubt appearing because NYR has published many articles in the past decade, particularly by Steven Weinberg, that view all religion not only as foolish but as the source of many of humanities ills. So Dyson echos Luther and Weinberg Voltaire: this is a squabble with some real pedigree. Dyson's father George was, as I understand it, an almost-famous composer in England in the interwar period. |
|
Ed Myskowski wrote (July 16, 2006):Eric Bergerud wrote: < understanding and appreciation of the workings of the natural world affirmed the glory of God's creation and plan. > An unbroken tradition, carried on in dedicated, unrelenting, fashion by the Society of Jesus (Jesuits), and reaching a bloom in the 20th century with Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. Who was not exactly squelched, just left unpublished, in his lifetime. He never abandoned science (or Jesus), or a smile. He is having the last laugh. < Dyson's father George was, as I understand it, an almost-famous composer in England in the interwar period. > I will leave the final word to the English correspondents. From my side of the pond, <almost> is the operative word. For weeks, I have forgotten to post this citation from the Oxford Composer Companion (Sacred Cantata entry, R. A. Leaver, p. 86): Since many of the chorales used in these cantatas are the Wittenberg hymns of Luther and others, which began to be published in 1524, it seems highly likely that the cantatas of Jahrgang 2, which began in 1724, were intended to celebrate 200 years of Lutheran hymnody. Perhaps my procrastination was fortuitous. From Robertson, the libretto [BWV 178] is based on Justas Jonas' hymn (1524). I will leave it to the scholars to confirm, but I believe this is the first we have seen from 1524. Perhaps we should expect something special. |
|
Ed Myskowski wrote (July 16, 2006):I am in the habit of trying to listen at least once through before reading posts, and so had not yet gotten to Julian's description. I was writing a few minutes ago about Robertson's text reference and listening to Richter [2]. Julian Mincham wrote: < It is instructive to compare the third movement (bass aria) > (1) You want to read everything Julian said, no need to repeat it all here. (2) Fischer-Dieskau [2] performing this aria (BWV 178/3) is not to be missed! Did I say expect something special? If I am repetitious from earlier discussions, pardon my enthusiasm. |
|
Neil Halliday wrote (July 16, 2006):In the opening chorus (Mvt. 1) we see yet another method for the arrangement of a 4-voice chorale. The first line of text is presented in (mostly) minims in all voices; the second line has the minimof the cantus firmus accompanied by animated semiquaver writing in the lower three voices. Lines three and four repeat this pattern. Line five has the three lower voices in mostly crotchets, line six has them in mostly quavers, and line seven has the mostly semiquaver animation of lines 2 and 4, in the lower voices. There are two main motives in the orchestral writing; an agitated dotted rhythm figure (not indicative of a `French overture' type of motion), and an animated eight-note (2 by 4) figure that repeats again and again, by lowering itself (usually) one step at a time. Bach uses similar long, animated figures (consisting of repetitions of an eight-note figure, as above) - twice, a few months apart in 1726, in the opening choruses of BWV 47 and BWV 187, as part of the main subjects of incredibly expansive vocal fugues. In BWV 178 the prominent dotted rhythm motive imbues the music with a more agitated aspect. Notice the violins insistent, repeated A above the stave, in dotted motion, accompanying the fourth line "In heaven high above". This `same-note' motive also occurs elsewhere. Tempi of BWV 178/1 range from a rushed 4:19 with Suzuki [6], to an unhurried 5:26 with Rilling [1]; some detail of the 1/16th note passage-work is difficult to discern in the former. The lines of Richter's large choir [2] (4.49) smudge in places. Rilling [1] allots the chorale sections of the following movement to the choir altos (in answer to Ed's question re the same situation in BWV 93, there is no indication for this in the score). This helps to stave off any tediousness that might result from the structure of this kind of movement (already discussed in BWV 93); but Rilling's continuo strings here are too thick/heavy, not helped by the `husky' timbre of the organ. Richter [2] has the excellent alto Julia Hamari, and pleasing organ tones in long held notes. Anyone like Suzuki's minimalist (HIP) approach [6]? (My opinion does not need restating). I see Ed likes DFD [2] in the bass aria (Mvt. 3). This performance has the necessary drive, but I would prefer less vocal vibrato on the coloraturas, where I like to be able to discern the actual pitch of the notes (not a simple proposition with most bass singers in this type of aria). Schöne has an easier task, with Rilling's slower tempo [1]. Notice that, in this bass aria, the unison violins I and II play the obbligato line in an unusually low register for these instruments. In the tenor chorale movement (Mvt. 4), Bach seems to be continuously juggling the little instrumental motive in the parts for oboes and continuo, while accompanying the tenor chorale. I like Euiluz and Rilling's moderate tempo [1]. The second `chorale e recitativo' (Mvt. 5) is fully composed, and easier to present successfully (IMO), compared with the second movement. Rilling [1] shines in the tenor aria (Mvt. 6), where the rich 4 part (5 part with string basses) writing for strings is vividly heard, and presented in a lively fashion via Rilling's powerful modern strings. Equiluz is pleasing, and injects sufficient energy into the part. [BTW, I heard a `period' "Zadok the Priest" the other day in which the charming, ascending broken-chord figures on the violins (1/16th notes) at the start were virtually inaudible, leaving the repeated quavers on the oboes to carry the day. Definitely a case of underpowered strings!]. |
|
Ed Myskowski wrote (July 17, 2006):Thomas Braatz wrote (August 9, 2001): < This time I will include all that he [Chafe] has to say about this cantata [BWV 178], then you can judge for yourself rather than rely on my possibly prejudiced paraphrase. > I thought I recalled Tom saying somewhere that Eric Chafe is tough reading, but he has some good things to say beneath it all. I did not take the trouble to recover the reference, because - From the several paragraphs Tom cited in 2001, all I can say is, this is the most impenetrable writing I have encountered anywhere. Not excluding Finnegans Wake, to return to a recent thread. Sorry for any insensitive comments at that time, I now see one aspect of the issue - there is a lot of pretense and intentional obscurity in academic jargon (indeed, any professional jargon). Not to be confused with accurate, professional statements. Not always easy for the outsider to distinguish, so I am counting on the musicologists to give us an updated opinion on Tom Braatz 2001 citations from Chafe. |
|
Ed Myskowski wrote (July 20, 2006):It is a rewarding challenge to keep up with the weekly discussions. Julian Mincham wrote: < It is instructive to compare the third movement (bass aria) [BWV 178/3] with its counterpart (tenor aria) in Canata BWV 81 from the first cycle. > I have not yet done this, but my intentions are good, and repeating it here clarifies the following sequence. < This aria has a slightly different focus. The image of the storm at sea is less a metaphor of the struggle to find faith and more a simile of comparison with the encroaching enemies who aim to divert us from it. Both arias stretch the techniques of the singers to their ultimates and this in itself is an expression of stress and effort. > I posted my immediate reaction to Richter [2] and DFD. I have since compared this with Leusink [4] a few times, and as of today, with Suzuki [6]. One has to wonder if the modulations in the accompaniment to Richter are not as much the DG/Polydor engineers tweaking knobs as the performance decisions of Richter. This does not in any way change my immediate response to the drama and impact of the CD, something special indeed, but it does make me ponder what, exactly, I am listening to. Suzuki [6], with Peter Kooy (Kooij on label) is in a class of its own. Not more dramatic. Not more impact. But everything is just right, including added harpsichord to the continuo. Not to mention listing all the continuo instruments in the booklet, so one doesn't need need to be a professional, or make a project, to figure out what exactly sounds so good. Neil halliday mentioned my original post, with comment on DFD vibrato. I find the vibrato less pronounced with Suzuki/Kooy [6], and even less so with Leusink/Ramselaar [4]. I enjoy them all, but then, my nature is a <glass half full> attitude, not looking for opportunities to complain. If I had to pick one, it would be Suzuki. As soon as I wrote that, I had another look at the text: wild waves of the sea violently shatter the ship This is what you feel, immediately, with Richter/DFD [2], however it was achieved. More comments re Suzuki [6] planned, as this performance is absent from previous comments. If I don't get to it, you can see from the archives that his performances are highly regarded, if a bit pricey to collect in total. Everyone should try at least one - HIP with a resonant venue, a unique presence. |
|
Ed Myskowski wrote (July 22, 2006):Peter Smaill wrote (July 16, 2006): < I look forward to [...] a review of the Suzuki recording of this Cantata [6], which has become available since the last discussions. > Comparative timings: Richter [2] 1, 4:49. 2, 2:23 3, 3:27. 4, 1:51. 5, 1:27. 6, 4:27. 7, 1:57. 19:51 total (20:21 by addition) Leusink [4]. 1, 5:08. 2, 2:15. 3, 4:04. 4, 1:51. 5, 1:36. 6, 3:38. 7, 1:50. 20:22 total (by addition, total not published) Suzuki [6]. 1, 4:19. 2, 2:13. 3, 3:23. 4, 1:39. 5, 1:33. 6, 3:53. 7, 1:37. 18:47 total (18:37 by addition) Two conclusions: Generalizations regarding HIP vs. trad tempos are not meaningful, and should be abandoned. Specific comparisons only. Conclusions regarding tempos, based on published timings, are suspect because published timings are suspect. I did no more than check the arithmetic. If you are making a serious point, best double check the actual timing of sections, as well. I did not do that. Nevertheless, the Suzuki [6] opening chorus (BWV 178/1) does sound on the quick side. Not so much as to spoil the overall impression, but in a direct comparison Richter [2] is better. Leusink [4], very transparent and unhurried, best of all, even with staccato beat.. The Richter soloists [2] are difficult to match, no surprise. The counter-tenors in BWV 178/2 are adequate (Buwalda/Leusink [4]) or good (White/Suzuki [6]), just not quite a match for Julia Hamari with Richter [2]. Somehow, Suzuki [6] makes the best overall impression. Probably, the combination of musicians, recording venue , and engineering, create the total effect. One detail does stand out as superlative, the oboes in the T chorale, BWV 178/4, have a particular subtlety. No cackling hens (or pecking roosters) here. Merely quibbling heretics (or quibbling as if at heretics, I have conflicting translations), very musical. Suzuki's [6] use of harpsichord in the continuo may not be to everyone's taste. It does provide an interesting listening alternative, and Suzuki explains his choice in the booklet notes. Even if he does conclude his justification with that dread phrase <clearly appropriate>, without a lot of preceding clarity. |
|
Ed Myskowski wrote (July 22, 2006):Neil Halliday wrote: < Rilling [1] allots the chorale sections of the following movement to the choir altos (in answer to Ed's question re the same situation in BWV 93, there is no indication for this in the score). > Thanks for remembering this detail, which I had just about forgotten asking! |
|
BWV 178 |
|
Ed Myskowski wrote (July 30, 2007):This morning, Brian McCreath played BWV 178 as the weekly cantata on WGBH-FM (www.wgbh.org for the internet savvy). My comments are continued from parallel thoughts re BWV 164. Brian is a BCML correspondent, and those of you who have access to his radio program may enjoy hearing his concise distillations of some of our discussion points. In particular, Brian emphasizes the importance of the texts to the music, and that Bach's Lutheran theology is essential to the texts. With regard to BWV 178, he noted the conflict in the chorale text, Mvt. 7: <Help us, that we do not waver. Reason struggles against Faith> Brian pointed out that there is no uncertainty here, reason was an enemy of faith in Bach's lutheran theology. This strikes me as a belief that it would be difficult to maintain today. I hasten to add, Brian did not state this, he left us to draw our own conclusion. It is a point of ongoing discussion whether we can know that Bach's personal theology agrees 100% with Lutheran dogma of his time. Some of the comments with regard to Bach's view of human nature, and in fact some of the texts themselves, in BWV 164, are in conflict with my understanding of Lutheran dogma: salvation is a matter of faith that Christ will save you, and good works, even love thy neighbor, are not of much help. |
|
Jean Laaninen wrote (July 30, 2007):[To Ed Myskowski] You have raised an important point in regard to a stricter view of Lutheran doctrine...sola fide...by faith alone is the standard as I understand it from a lifetime of either being in Lutheran Churches or being related to all kinds of Lutheran relatives and in such circles. But despite certain primary doctrines, Lutherans have traditionally taught that faith with out works is dead. So although I have been unable to find much of a theological focus on this particular issue in Schweitzer so far, and in the other texts I have been reading, a look at the cantatas reveals interesting information. For example, Recitative II in Cantata BWV 51 could be said to carry an interpretation of obedience to God, but I think the idea can possibly be extended just a little. The idea I get from my translation (word by word) leads me to think that 'we' go to church to thank God for his goodness towards us. Worship in Lutheranism translates in preaching as the work of the people. So works of all kinds that are good are not far from Lutheranism even if they are not at the core. I read just this evening about Bach signing the Lutheran Accords, so he was pledged to uphold the tenets of his faith. However, I also read a bit earlier about the Bach family and their jovial music making during the yearly family reunions. The thing about all of this is to say that Bach was part of a remarkably human family in my view, but he also had a challenging job dealing with the authorities, teaching and composing. And on the compositional side and the textual side, so far as I have been able to see in the cantatas I have explored, the texts do not appear to me to be in conflict with Lutheran teaching, even if today we have some more liberal elements existing. The tough thing is understanding that unless one is a Lutheran steeped in theology some of it won't make complete sense. Then, too, perhaps some of these texts didn't make full sense to the congregations Bach served. But this is what I think as I hear the discussions taking place--without the need to convey the texts from the Bible for a particular Sunday many of these great works would not have been written. So understanding comes from the source, if not necessarily agreement on meaning. And you don't have to fully understand every line to get something out of the music. A good family friend, a certain Dr. Eiser who is Jewish, happily sang in all the Christian works we did in a master arts chorale in California. He didn't have any arguments with the texts because he considered the texts 'ours' and the music something that could be uplifting for everyone. The texts are history in one sense, but also vital to many Christians and others who have a view toward belief in God. But the music as a whole is enriching for Bach's genius. The idea of reason being an enemy of faith (as you mention below) is still prevalant today in many religious entities. However, as a modern person and somewhat liberal on some issues, I think without reason we would not be able to accomplish much of anything. And I also see reason as a God-given gift. Bach would not have been able to write such amazing counter-point without the facility of reason. So I am sure those of us who use our powers of reason in an able manner need not feel this is a threat. But in traditional Lutheranism and many other branches of the Christian community, putting reason above faith is the difficulty. |
|
Cara Emily Thornton wrote (July 30, 2007):[To Jean Laaninen] I have traveled in Lutheran and other 'sola fide'-adherent circles for many years, and basically we can boil down their thinking on 'sola fide' to a certain 'equation': FAITH => SALVATION + WORKS These circles contrast their view with another view: FAITH + WORKS => SALVATION. So, works are not absent from either equation. The difference is whether they are a cause or an effect. In secular terms, this matter can be understood very simply: it is true that only faith saves, but if we really believe in something, it is going to afour behavior. If that something, whatever it is, does not affect our behavior, then it becomes evident that we don't really believe it. And we can arrive at what we really believe in by reasoning backwards from our actions. |
|
Nicholas Johnson wrote (August 2, 2007):[To Jean Laaninen] The text of the bass aria «Komm süsses Kreuz" (Come blessèd cross) in the St Mathew Passion (BWV 244) strikes us today as a bit on the heavy side! But we love the sound of the three bass lines running along together. Even Mozart's constant references to death when writing to his father strike us as a little morbid. But those were different times when the darker side of life was there for all to see. Your friend, Dr. Eiser, enjoyed singing the music, taking the text with its Christian message in his stride. Dr Jonathan Miller in the BBC documentary series "World's Greatest Composers" denies that an appreciation of the St Mathew Passion (BWV 244) is a proof of the power of the message in that gospel. His view is that the St Mathew Passion (BWV 244) is part of the culture and civilization of the western world. The power of the music carries us along even when the text seems old-fashioned or out of line with our own line of thought. |
|
Jean Laaninen wrote (August 2, 2007):[To Nicholas Johnson] Thanks for your comments Nicholas. I sang the St. Matthew's Passion (BWV 244) for four years in college, and the experience was sacred and spiritual. So even today, that piece of music represents a presence of God's compassion in both my heart and mind. But I can also understand the point of view of Dr. Jonathan Miller. Bach's music is of a certain period, yet it transcended the everyday experience in part for the very reason that there was a great deal to rise above in his times. There is much that is great about living at this time, not least of all the ability to communicate with people around the world and find friends for whom Bach's music is extra-special. In the time I have been doing home recording, I have chosen Bach selections that some of my friends and family most likely would never have heard, had I not chosen to make this effort for them, and as a challenge for me. I have been delighted to discover that some of them have also felt very touched by the experience. And even though most of these folks have a pretty good situation in life, there have been times of darkness for them, too. I recently mailed out copies of a recording I finished this summer entitled Darkness and Light...Bach, Marcello and Bach. The center section was the Bach Concerto in D-minor, my first ever attempt at a flute concerto recording that I was willing to share. None of those folks who received it have escaped struggles to survive in one way or another, or death of loved ones. The first selection was Cantata BWV 52 and the last Cantata BWV 51. So for those who still walk in a world with many blessings but various uncertainties, the music carries a message that transcends daily life. Maybe the transcendent quality that I describe as spiritual that is why I continue to want to learn more of these great works, and why they give me so much satisfaction. I can't speak for Dr. Miller, but for me Bach is beyond the cultural icon. Still I understand his point. And when I sing Bach there are times when I feel as if I know him in some way for his extraordinary perception of what may be called his text painting. I think he understood the context in which he was writing. How grand it might have been to hear him play the organ and improvise, and much of the rest. But the music is left to us. The discussions are great and help me as I determine how I will sing Bach as I proceed. Right now my notebook for learning has Cantata BWV 82a, BWV 202 and BWV 84 in it, as well as some Verdi and some Faure. It remains to be seen whether or not I will decide to record any of these works, but I want to know them. Now I sing both Cantata BWV 52 and BWV 51 on an almost daily basis to stay in shape, and I love being able to do this. So, most of all I love the music and the discussions are also good. |
|
Julian Mincham wrote (August 2, 2007):Nicholas Johnson wrote: < His view is that the St Mathew Passion (BWV 244) is part of the culture and civilization of the western world. The power of the music carries us along even when the text seems old-fashioned or out of line with our own line of thought. > Yep, well put |
|
Cantata BWV 178 : Complete Recordings | Recordings of Individual Movements | Discussions |
|
Recordings & Discussions of Cantatas : Cantatas BWV 1-50 | Cantatas BWV 51-100 | Cantatas BWV 101-150 | Cantatas BWV 151-200 | Cantatas BWV 201-224 | Cantatas BWV Anh | Order of Discussion |
Last update: ýAugust 8, 2007 ý00:55:14