Cantata BWV 158 - Discussions

Previous Messages

Jane Newble wrote (April 24, 2000):
[16] Last week I received the CD with the wonderful Bass Matthias Goerne singing BWV 82, BWV 158 and BWV 56. I heard one track of it on the Gramophone magazine sample CD and just had to get it, and was not disappointed. "Welt, ade! Ich bin dein müde" (BWV 158) was the track featured on the Gramophone CD. The (modern) violin accompaniment is wonderful with his deep bass voice. Although it will take a lot to beat my favorite Klaus Mertens, Matthias Goerne has a fantastic voice.

Here are some excerpts from the Gramophone review: "...this extraordinary fine recital of the solo bass cantatas...." "How this wonderful musician fills all Bachians with hope! This is the sort of mature, sophisticated, assured and boundless Bach singing which one hears so rarely these days. With the beguiling and cultivated oboe playing of Albrecht Mayer, Goerne takes a refreshingly underivative view of 'Ich habe genug' (BWV 82), involved yet unobtrusively engaged. This, and the famous lullaby 'Schlummert ein', is fragrant, even and soft-spoken. Norrington's hold on the modern-instrument Salzburg Camerata Academica provides an almost ideal palette for the Lieder-inspired communicative range of Goerne. A great Bach recording" (Jonathan Freeman-Attwood)

It is on Decca 466 570-2DH (with Salzburg Bach Choir; Salzburg Camerata Academica/Sir Roger Norrington. In between the cantatas are the Sinfonias of BWV 35.

Simon Crouch wrote (April 25, 2000):
I thought Jane's post was really wonderful because it illustrated for me how people's taste in vocal production differs - I listened too to the track on the Gramophone sampler and thought it was some of the worst singing that I'd ever heard! My problem? Goerne has a very fast beating vibrato - I've simply never been able to take this voice type seriously. My loss, I'm sure.

Discussions in the Week of February 2, 2003

Aryeh Oron wrote (February 4, 2003):
BWV 158 - Introduction

The subject of this week’s discussion (February 2, 2003) is the Solo Cantata for the Feast of Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary BWV 158 ‘Der Friede sei mit dir’ (Peace be unto you). It is probable that Salomo Frank wrote the libretto for the aria (Mvt. 2) and the recitative (Mvt. 3), as they bear on the Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary, for which Sunday Bach originally set this cantata. However, in about 1724 for Easter Tuesday, Bach revised the original by adding an opening recitative (Mvt. 1) and a concluding chorale (Mvt. 4). Unfortunately, these texts do not follow a logical sequence, because of this revision. The Gospel for the Easter version is Luke 24: 36, where the risen Christ appears before His Disciples and says, ‘Peace be unto you’. This greeting or blessing begins the cantata with the first line of the recitative. Bach uses only a solo violin, an oboe and organ continuo instead of an orchestra. This is a solo cantata for bass. But the chorale of Mvt. 2 can also be sung by either a solo soprano or by the soprano section of the choir. The last chorale should definitely performed by the choir. If I am not mistaken this is last solo cantata (for one voice) to be discussed in our (first) cycle of weekly cantata discussions.

Recordings
The details of the recordings of this cantata can be found at the following page of the Bach Cantatas Website: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV158.htm

Bach wrote three solo cantata for Bass. The most famous of which, ‘Ich habe genug’ BWV 82 has at least 46 complete recordings and together with the solo cantata BWV 51 is the most recorded of Bach’s sacred cantatas. BWV 56 ‘Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen’ is not far behind with its 32 complete recordings. BWV 158 is the least familiar of the three, with 15 complete recordings, but this week is its turn to be discussed and an opportunity for us to give it full attention and explore it more deeply. Two singers – DFD and Max van Egmond – recorded this cantata twice, and in the long list we can find other promising names.

Additional Information
In the page of recordings mentioned above you can also find links to:
Original German text: at Walter F. Bischof Website; Two English translations: by Francis Browne (Bach Cantatas Website) and Z. Philip Ambrose; Portuguese translation by Rodrigo Maffei Libonati (Bach Cantatas Website); Hebrew translation by Aryeh Oron (Bach Cantatas Website).
Score (Vocal & Piano version);
Commentary: in English by Simon Crouch (Listener’s Guide) and by unmentioned writer (All Music Guide); in Spanish by Julio Sánchez Reyes (CantatasDeBach).

I hope to see many of you participating in the discussion.

Alex Riedlmayer wrote (February 5, 2003):
Aryeh Oron wrote:
< This is a solo cantata for bass. But the chorale of Mvt. 2 can also be sung by either a solo soprano or by the soprano section of the choir. >
Unlike Aryeh, I believe solo voices to be generally superior in movements of this type, where unharmonized chorales overlay shifting vocal lines or instrumental melodies.

< The last chorale should definitely performed by the choir. >
Rifkin [11], of course, performed it with four vocalists, although the original vocal parts for this cantata have vanished.

Philippe Bareille wrote (February 6, 2003):
This beautiful cantata is a short cantata, because probably only a fragment has survived. The main theme is death but seen as a relief of human suffering and bringing peace and rest. "The focal point of the work is the great bass aria with solo violin "Welt ade!", to which the soprano sings the chorale of the same name line-for-line. In its instrumental symbolism and expressive power, the writing here is related to the aria "Erbarme dich" from the MP" (G Schuhmacher)

I have the two versions with van Egmond [10] and a version by DFD (Karl Forster) [3].

[3] Dietrich Fisher-Dieskau was hardly over 30 when he recorded several Bach arias including the complete BW158. The support of the orchestra may be off the mark but combines sensitivity and expression. DFD is sublime as usual. I don't think that it is possible to sing better here. The whole CD is worth listening to.

[10] I won't repeat what I said about Max van Egmond again but this distinguished singer is equal to himself: warm, affecting, tender. I prefer the Leonhardt rendition which brings out the spiritual content more convincingly than Jurgen perhaps. This kind of work imbued with nostalgia is perfectly suited to Leonhardt mystical approach. However, both versions can be warmly recommended. My only reservation with Leonhardt recording is the boy soprano who sings the chorale. I prefer a soloist to a group of singers but Christoph Wegmann' s voice, unlike that of his predecessor Alan Bergius, lacks the required strength to be effective.

In summary: DFD [3] probably remains unrivalled but van Egmond [10] is very moving.

Thomas Braatz wrote (February 7, 2003):

See: Cantata BWV 158 - Provenance

Thomas Braatz wrote (February 7, 2003):
BWV 158 - Commentaries: [Chafe, Gerhard Schuhmacher, David Schulenberg]

See: Cantata BWV 158 - Commentary

Dick Wursten wrote (February 8, 2003):
Small cantata, a little gem, though indeed textually inconsistent. the aria mvt 2 is beautiful. In the rendering by Ramselaar & Holton [19], accompanied by Pieter Affourtit (esp. invited to join the Leusink project for this violin part ??) the balance between the three voices is good, so you can discern and enjoy all musical lines and ornaments very well. Not having any other recordings to compare it with, I can only say that I am satisfied with this recording and grateful for this piece of music.

Then a few remarks about the text and the occasion
1. It looks almost selfevident / obvious / that mvt 1 en 4 belong to Easter and 2 and 3 to the feast of the presentation of Jesus in the temple (= Mary Purification = Lightmass).
2. Just read the text of 2 and 3 and you will be reminded of the Canticum Simeonis in the typical interpretation of the christian tradition (cf: 'Ich habe genug' ... 'Mit Fried' und Freud' ich fahr dahin').
3. IMO it is a little bit silly to link the cantata to the 3rd day of Easter, based on the Reading of the gospel of Luke 24: 36-47. That reading doesn't contain the words of the risen Lord: Peace be with you (Der Friede sei mit dir). These words you find in the gospel according to John. Jesus says them twice when he appears to his frightened disciples: John 20: 19-29. [esp: verses 21, 26]. This reading though is in the lutheran lectionarium AFAIK on the first sunday AFTER Easter: The Sunday with that beautiful name: quasimodogeniti... I would dare to suggest this correction to Dürr for the next re-print of his book...

Thomas Braatz wrote (February 8, 2003):
BWV 158 - The Recordings:

This week I listened to the following recordings: Forster (Fischer-Dieskau) (1958) [3]; Richter (Fischer-Dieskau) (1964) [6]; Rilling (Huttenlocher) (1984) [7]; Leonhardt (van Egmond) (1986) [10]; Rifkin (Opalach) (1989) [11]; Herreweghe (Kooy) (1991) [12]; Norrington (Görne) (1999) [16]; LLeusink (Ramselaar) (2000) [19]

[3] Forster (Fischer-Dieskau):
Mvt. 1 (Recitativo) – Without resorting to more obvious expressive devices, Fischer-Dieskau is able to accomplish a magical interpretation of the music and text. His voice, very mellow and round, encompasses the listener with a wash of beautiful sound. Much is done with understatement, so certain is Fischer-Dieskau of his interpretive powers. This is a remarkable voice at its prime and singing a recitative without making it into an operatic production, but also singing it in such a way that the cantabile aspects of the music become apparent. Any listener who thinks that recitatives are mainly uninteresting interruptions in the forward mvt. of a cantata, should listen to this. Those listeners who have become accustomed to the HIP style of singing by the current half-voices who will present such a recitative in a half-spoken presentation style with little or no support from the bc in the secco portions of such a recitative, will begin to realize how HIP renditions have, for the most part, sucked this type of cantata mvt. dry and have made it sound like the speech patter of a Mozart opera recitative. This is due to a misunderstanding on the part of some musicologists who have applied the performance practices of a later (end of the 18th century) period to the performance of Bach cantatas that were mainly performed at least a half-century earlier.

Mvt. 2 (Aria con Corale) – This is a very sensitive, lyrical rendition with poignant moments of resignation which are quite perceptible in Fischer-Dieskau’s voice as the listener feels how the singer portrays the sense of being really tired of being in this world and his anticipation of the ‚Ruh und Frieden’ [‘rest and peace’] which still lie before him. We are caught in the moments between death and the afterlife. The singer expresses with an almost child-like belief what his thoughts and feelings are (you can almost feel the exhaustion of a life of trials and tribulations) before reaching the next stage which occurs only at the very end where he takes heart as his faith begins to strengthen. This is a truly remarkable performance not only because of the interpretation of the text but also because of the almost incredulous quality of Fischer-Dieskau’s lyrical presentation. The magical combination of these two aspects places this recording far above any other recording. It is unique and very special. The sopranos sing the chorale melody cleanly and clearly without being intrusive, but they create many separations between the individual quarter notes (a rather non-legato style that is inappropriate here.) This chorale melody should be ethereal, as if coming from another dimension. The violin solo is played very sensitively.

Mvt. 3 (Recitativo) – Another masterpiece of recitative singing that should not be missed.

Mvt. 4 (Choral) – Everything seems to be going wrong here. There are intonation problems galore, the individual voice parts become unclear and muddy due to the misapplied vibratos. There is a tired laxness that makes this short chorale become boring after only a few bars. This choir simply does not care very much about the idea that they have to sing this chorale.

[6] Richter (Fischer-Dieskau):
Mvt. 1 (Recitativo) - The range of expression is much greater than in the Forster recording. Everything is on a much grander scale and Fischer-Dieskau seems to treat this much more like an opera. Here his intelligence in working out the interpretation is very much in evidence, perhaps almost too much so. Some may like this treatment better, but I find the subtlety of the earlier recording much more convincing and moving.

Mvt. 2 (Aria con Corale) – Richter’s bc is much less lyrical than Forster’s; it begins to sound like a relentless, fast march with each 8th note being ‘punched out’ in similar fashion. Fischer-Dieskau picks up on this along with the faster tempo (compared to the Forster recording) and begins to emphasize through thrusting (over emphasis of certain short phrases such as ‘steh’n mir an’—I do not understand why he does this, the music and text do not seem to call for this type of treatment) and staccato separation a feeling almost of anger with everything the world has to offer. He is marching off valiantly as a soldier into battle saying ‘good bye’ to the world and moving into the promised heavenly existence. In the final section (‘da bleib ich’ and ‘da prang ich’), Fischer-Dieskau cuts back considerably to evoke the same child-like belief that he had in the earlier recording, but somehow, because of some sudden outbursts on ‘da prang ich’ he does not capture this mood as well and there is less of an organic development toward the conclusion as he had attained in the previous recording. Here it seems that he is micro-managing the phrases rather than looking at the overall, longer phrase structures. This is a different interpretation and slightly less convincing. The sopranos singing the chorale melody render it in an appropriately legato fashion, however, sometimes the voices are not solidly on the note to be sung (they waver slightly.) but the ethereal effect of the chorale melody is present. The violin is very much in the foreground here and the part is played with a strong presence.

Mvt. 3 (Recitativo) – Fischer-Dieskau is trying to squeeze out every interpretative detail that he can find. It almost becomes over laden with all the distinctions he is able to find.

Mvt. 4 (Choral) - The choir begins very flat and never really recovers completely even with the help of the organ, playing loudly as usual (this is a terrible flaw in this otherwise usually excellent cantata series), which lets us know just how flat they are.

[7] Rilling (Huttenlocher):
Mvt. 1 (Recitativo) - From the very beginning, Huttenlocher’s overly precious interpretation detracts from making this into a successful recording. He is obviously trying very hard to put expression into his interpretation. The trouble is that he is trying much too hard, and, as a result, the listener will sense the disingenuous quality of his singing.

Mvt. 2 (Aria con Corale) - The violin, which is played very well, is placed very much in the foreground. Huttenlocher gives us more of the same treatment as in the recitative, and the cantus firmus consisting of a number of sopranos who are unable to sing a simple chorale melody without resorting to noticeable vibrato, destroy the desired ethereal quality. These ‘angelic’ voices are much too earthy and will probably remain behind with the bass who undergoes no transformation even at the end of the aria. The bc is much too heavy.

Mvt. 3 (Recitativo) - Here Huttenlocher becomes even more unbearable as he tries even harder to outdo himself.

Mvt. 4 (Choral) - Despite the voices with vibratos, Rilling manages to give this chorale a worthy treatment with many intriguing subtleties. The choir sings in tune, the balance is good, and the precision is outstanding, and yet there is an emotional quality that pervades the entire rendition.

[10] Leonhardt (van Egmond):
Mvt. 1 (Recitativo) – For some reason unknown to me, van Egmond, in contrast with many other recordings that he made in this series, has a much greater clarity in his voice (not the usual muffled, cottony sound the prevails elsewhere.) Although his half-voice usually sings sotto voce most of the time, here, perhaps because this is a solo cantata, and perhaps also because he may have studied this music more thoroughly until it became a part of him, he gives a very good performance with ample expression that reflects a good understanding and feeling for the text. The rather loud, booming bc tries to help in setting an affirmative tone, but the shortened, secco accompaniment first heard in this Harnoncourt/Leonhardt Cantata Series deprives the singer of the necessary support that he should have. When the bc does enter with another shortened note, it is given excessive emphasis, thus calling too much attention to itself. This is evidence of the imbalance that this mistaken notion of the shortened accompaniment creates, an accompaniment in which the long notes that Bach had in the score are terminated prematurely without any good reason.

Mvt. 2 (Aria con Corale) – One thing is quite clear: Marie Leonhardt (the conductor’s wife or is it daughter?) plays the violin solo very well. This is a refreshing change after hearing Alice Harnoncourt’s squeaky, scratchy violin renditions in the cantatas conducted by Harnoncourt. The chorale melody rendered by a boy soprano and an oboe (the latter, which almost sounds like a tromba, is quite loud, louder at times than the voice) is distorted completely by strong emphasis on each quarter note (with separation between notes.) There is nothing ethereal about this punchy rendition which essentially tries to hammer each syllable into the listener’s ear. Van Egmond continues with an interesting, differentiated interpretative rendition of this aria.

Mvt. 3 (Recitativo) – Here there is more of the shortened accompaniment in the non-arioso sections. In the high range van Egmond’s voice becomes thin and raspy.

Mvt. 4 (Choral) - The Tölzer Boy’s Choir gives one of its jumpy chorale renditions by throwing an extremely hard accent on almost every 1st and 3rd beat of each measure. In doing so, Leonhardt (in imitation of Harnoncourt’s chorale treatments) also manages to completely distort and hence destroy this chorale so that all that remains is a caricature of this famous chorale by Martin Luther. I wonder what Bach might have said, if he had heard such a primitive rendition such as this where the purpose of the heavy accents seems to be to keep the boys together on the beat.

[11] Rifkin (Opalach):
Mvt. 1 (Recitativo) - Opalach has a reasonably pleasant voice, but his range of expression is quite limited. There is a sameness that prevails throughout. This is another half-voice quite prevalent among HIP. The shortened secco accompaniment is quite apparent here as the voice remains unsupported except for an occasional note here and there (except, of course, in the arioso sections.)

Mvt. 2 (Aria con Corale) - Rifkin has studied and taken to heart Dürr’s suggestion that the solo part might have been originally written for a flauto traverso which Rifkin uses here. This is an interesting experiment that makes this recording worth listening to. The solo soprano voice with vibrato sounds much too earthy and has problems sustaining the melody of the chorale (for this a number of sopranos is infinitely better.) Opalach sings cleanly with a lyrical quality, but the range of expression is quite limited here.

Mvt. 3 (Recitativo) - This is a continuation of the same qualities as in Mvt. 1.

Mvt. 4 (Choral) – Here we have an OVPP rendition which is excellent because everything can be clearly heard, and it is performed in a legato-style with wonderful phrasing (no clipping of the final note at the end of a line of the chorale.)

[12] Herreweghe (Kooy):
Mvt. 1 (Recitativo) – There is a continuation of the shortened accompaniment in the secco portions of the recitative. Kooy’s presentation has a lively expression and contrasts well the lyrical sections (“Der Friede sei mit dir”) with the remaining passages.

Mvt. 2 (Aria con Corale) – The interplay of the solo violin and voice is balanced and very effective. The soprano section sings as a unit without vibrato (excellent) but Herreweghe has retained the ugly habit (he learned this from Harnoncourt) of non-legato singing (not always, but often) so that there is a separation between the quarter notes. But otherwise this soprano rendition is one of the best. Kooy is very convincing here as well.

Mvt. 3 (Recitativo) – very similar to Mvt. 1

Mvt. 4 (Choral) – The second note, a half note lower, than in the other recordings, in the sopranos will tip you off that there is something different here. Herreweghe has chosen a different option here. There are quite of number of changes in this version compared to the others. Herreweghe, as usual, has very good control of the choir and achieves an excellent choir sound. I may not agree with some of his unusual phrasings, but it is an interesting version nonetheless.

[16] Norrington (Görne):
Mvt. 1 (Recitativo) – Görne has a problematical voice with a fast, trembling vibrato that distracts from performance of the music. His expression is nothing special. The shortened, secco accompaniment falls in line with the HIP tradition.

Mvt. 2 (Aria con Corale) – the extremely fast tempo forces Görne (and the violinist as well) to twist and turn his way through Bach’s musical lines without being able to do much with the expression. The violin is mainly kept in the background and sometimes is barely heard. This is a quick reading of this beautiful mvt. that fails to leave much of any impression on the listener. The sopranos sing the part very effectively as they float above all the other parts.

Mvt. 3 (Recitativo) – more of the same, trembling voice that becomes unnerving after a while. The expris almost non-existent. It is simply a quick reading of this work.

Mvt. 4 (Choral) – This is a fairly good reading of the chorale, but there is evidence of some lack of precision in the attacks. It would appear that this choir had probably not had sufficient time to become completely familiar with the chorale and the conductor’s manner of conducting.

[19] Leusink (Ramselaar):
Mvt. 1 (Recitative) - This is one of the few performances which sounds contrived. Very likely this is due to the fact that insufficient time was available for truly ‘digesting’ this musical material in order to make the expression sound natural because it has become an integral part of the performer. Compared to Fischer-Dieskau who also sings pianissimo in this mvt., Ramselaar’s voice becomes a lifeless when singing sotto voce almost all the time. There is no real intensity when singing softly. The bc overdoes the strong emphasis after ‘zerissen’ and ‘gefällt.’ The shortened secco accompaniment in all but the last 6 measures (an arioso) deprives Ramselaar of the necessary support that he needs. There is a breakdown here in the communication between the vocalist and his listening audience. His attempts at expression are artificial.

Mvt. 2 (Aria con Corale) - The bc is quite heavy here. The violin sounds quite thin and tentative. The soprano is a solo voice and doesn’t ‘float’ as well as a soprano section might. In the low range the oboe is louder than the voice. Ramselaar gives a clean reading of the music and if he does attempt to put more expression into his voice, it sounds more like an affectation.

Mvt. 3 (Recitativo) - more of the same as in Mvt. 1, but with even more sotto voce. This is not very convincing.

Mvt. 4 (Choral) - The typical Leusink trademark is the clipping of the final word/consonant at the end of a phrase. All the yodelers and Buwalda-type voices are present. The final touch is Buwalda, or someone like him, trying to jump from an ‘e’ to a ‘c’ on the ‘le’ of the final ‘Alleluja.’

Summary:

Choirs:
The worst choir performances: Forster [3], Leonhardt [10], Leusink [19], yes, and even Richter [6] despite his valiant attempt to make something more of the chorale.

The best choir performances: Rifkin’s OVPP [11], Herreweghe [12] (with a slight reservation), Rilling [7]

Bass soloists:
The best, by far, and in a class all by itself: Fischer-Dieskau in the Forster Version [3]

Very Good: van Egmond [10], Kooy [12], Fischer-Dieskau (Richter) [6]

Average: Opalach [11]

Below Average: Huttenlocher [7], Görne [16], Ramselaar [19]

Arjen van Gijssel wrote (February 9, 2003):
[To Thomas Braatz] The longer I read the e-mails in the Bach Cantata group, the more I learn about the persons contributing to it. And the more I learn about their preferences. I get the impression that Thomas is living in the past, in his dislike of the use of sotto-voce in recent performances.

Personally, I admire the voice of Ramselaar [19], as plain as it is, his thechnique, expression and interpretation. The same counts for Nico van der Meel (although not in this cantata), who sometimes is treated harshly by mr. Braatz. Everybody his opinion. I am not convinced at all by his claim that musicologists are wrong, and he is right.

I consider it an honour to perform with both aforementioned soloists in the cantate cycle in Rotterdam (Laurenskerk), the Netherlands.

Philippe Bareille wrote (February 9, 2003):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< One thing is quite clear: Marie Leonhardt (the conductor’s wife or is it daughter?) plays the violin solo very well. >
It is Gustav Leonhardt's wife.

Aryeh Oron (February 9, 2003):
BWV 158 - Background

The Background below, quoted from the liner notes to the original LP issue of Max van Egmond recording on Telefunken (1972), was written by Christoph-Hellmut Mahling:

The solo cantata for bass "Der Friede sei mit dir" (Peace be with thee), BWV 158, is supposed to have been intended both for use on the feast of the Purification of Mary and for use on the third Easter feast day. This double use let the question arise whether the form in whim the cantata has come down to us might not be just a fragment of one single or possibly even two different works. All attempts hitherto at restoring the original form of the work or works have, however, failed through the insufficiency of the available sources. Again, a later re-arrangement of a cantata originally intended for the first of the feasts mentioned above into an Easter Tuesday cantata would not seem inadmissible as an explanation. Also dubious is the time of its composition, whim was hitherto always placed in the Weimar years (1708-17). Today, however, Bach research raises the possibility of it having been written at the beginning of the seventeen-thirties. The question also remains open whether part of the text is by Salomon Frank or not. In the two chorales Bach uses the hymn verse "Welt ade ..." mentioned above on the one hand, and the fifth verse of Luther's hymn "Christ lag in Todesbanden" (Christ lay in death's bonds) on the other. Another striking feature is the sparing use of instruments: apart from the continuo instruments (violoncello and organ), only a solo violin and an oboe are required, the latter to reinforce the chorale melodies sung by the soprano. The cantata begins with a lengthy recitative, which is followed by an "Aria con Corale". The highly virtuoso solo violin part (its technical demands have given rise to consideration whether another solo instrument, e.g. the flute, may not have been originally intended) "concertizes" with the bass soloist, while the chorale is introduced into their jubilation by the soprano and the oboe as a restful element, so to speak. and as a symbol of the firm resolve to bid the "World farewell". The recitative that now follows once again takes up the thoughts expressed in the aria, partly even word for word (Arioso: "Da bleib' im, da hab' ich Vergnügen..." - I stay there, I have pleasure there…), which again can be an indication that the cantata originally must have had another form. The chorale "Hier ist das rechte Osterlamm..." (Here is the proper Passover Lamb...) in a simple four-part setting closes this cantata.

The Recordings

Last week I have been listening to the following 12 complete recordings of Cantata BWV 158:

[3] Karl Forster w/ Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (1958)
[4] Jaap Schröder w/ Max van Egmond (1966-1967)
[6] Karl Richter w/ Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (1969)
[7] Helmuth Rilling w/ Philippe Huttenlocher (1984)
[8] Johannes Somary w/ John Ostendorf (1984)
[10] Gustav Leonhardt w/ Max van Egmond (1986)
[11] Joshua Rifkin w/ Jan Opalach (1989)
[12] Philippe Herreweghe w/ Peter Kooy (1991)
[14] Karl-Friedrich Beringer w/ Siegmund Nimsgern (1991)
[16] Roger Norrington w/ Matthias Goerne (1999)
[17] Elizabeth C. Patterson w/ Br. Francis Hempel (1999)
[19] Pieter Jan Leusink w/ Bas Ram(2000)

I do not have the time to write an extensive review. Here are some of my personal observations and a rating of the recordings.

From the opening recitative of DFD’s first recording of this cantata [3] it is easy to realise that we hear a singer who launched a totally new approach to Bach singing. He finds nuances and meaning in a recitative that with other singers might sound bland and not very promising. Every word and every syllable are getting individual treatment. Sometimes the question might be raised: does he over-interpret rather let the music speak for itself? From time to time, if not very often, I have this impression when hearing DFD, but not in his first recording of the cantata under discussion. He sounds so natural and unforced, that when you hear it you think that this is the only viable way of singing this cantata. He set in this recording so high bar, that even for him it was difficult to overstep it. The dialogue between him and the well-trained soprano section of the choir in the second movement leaves nothing to be desired. On the other hand, the choir in the recording with Richter’s [6] is too big and they sing with power rather than gentleness, as they should.

Max van Egmond, who also recorded this cantata twice, approaches it from a different point of view. His interpretation is more subdued and intimate, and he attracts less attention to himself. Nevertheless, I find it very attractive and tasteful. I prefer his first recording [4] to his second [10], not because there is a great difference in the quality of the interpretation or the singer’s voice. There isn’t. But in the first recording he has an equal partner with Schröder, the violinist, who plays with technical assurance, sensitivity and vitality. I also prefer the singing of the small and excellent soprano section of the choir in the first recording to the solo soprano boy in the second. The oboe in the second does not play in tune with the soprano.

I do not know why did Rilling choose Huttenlocher to sing this cantata [7]. He uses too much vibrato in his singing, his lines sounds unstable and his interoperation is not very interesting. I think of at least two or three singers, who served Rilling in his cantata cycle, that I would prefer to hear singing this cantata. The choir in this recording is again too big.

John Ostendorf, who recorded the cantata with Somary [8], has serious problems of pronunciation, and his interpretation gives the impression that he does not really understand the textual and musical content he has to convey. The playing of the violin is not clean and the choir is too big. Rifkin [11] uses another American bass singer, Jan Opalach, who is a major improvement by showing more sensitivity and more tenderness. Rifkin has his reasons to use flute rather than violin in the second movement. To my ears it is totally unacceptable. Using OVPP in this cantata could be justified had Rifkin used a more balanced team of vocal soloists, whose voices bland better together. Another America bass recorded this cantata. This is Francis Hempel with Elizabeth Patterson [17]. This is the least satisfying rendition of this cantata I have heard. The voice of the singer is not especially pleasant, and he has nothing to offer in terms of interpretation.

I find the Herreweghe with Kooy [12] as the best of the modern recordings of this cantata. Herreweghe with his sensitive accompaniment pushes Kooy to give his outmost along all the four movements. The playing of the violin is soft and tender; the small soprano section of the choir is well balanced with the violin and the singer. There is a unique aura of mystery and lyricism in this recording, not to be found in any other recording.

When Nimsgern recorded this cantata with Beringer [14], he still had an impressive voice as could be heard in his cantata recording s with Rilling and Harnoncourt from the early 1970’s. But I feel that something had been lost. In almost every of his earlier recordings he brought an original and convincing approach. Here he sounds more ordinary. As if he did not pay the same attention to the recording as he once use to do. The real gem of this recording is the excellent boys’ choir of Windsbacher Knabenchor, who sings in both of the choral movements. Another German bass-baritone, who belongs to a younger generation, Matthias Goerne, recorded this cantata with Norrington [16]. One can hear that he has been trained in the tradition of DFD. He has an impressive voice, but I have the impression that he does not have much originality to offer in terms of interpretation. Maybe he does not have to, and it is only me who am looking for something unique in every recording. The accompaniment and the choir make this a good and solid rendition. If this recording has some problems, they can be found in improper balance between the components. This sounds as a problem of recording or mixing.

Ramselaar rendition with Leusink [19] can certainly please. He has proven himself along the Leusink’s cantata cycle as one the most reliable factors. He is not a DFD, but who is? The playing of the violin and especially the oboe is good, and the soprano (Holton) singing the chorale in the second movement is better than the 4-part choir in the concluding chorale.

Conclusion - Rating

Exemplary: Forster/DFD [3]
Very good: Schröder/Egmond [4], Richter/DFD [6], Herreweghe/Kooy [12]
Good: Beringer/Nimsgern [14], Norrington/Goerne [16]
Average: Leonhardt/Egmond [10], Leusink/Ramselaar [19]
Below average: Rilling/Huttenlocher [7], Rifkin /Opalach [11]
Poor: Somary/Ostendorf [8], Patterson/Hempel [17]
Bad: None

That’s all this time.

Christian Panse wrote (February 10, 2003):
Hello Arjen, Thomas and all,

< The longer I read the e-mails in the Bach Cantata group, the more I learn about the persons contributing to it. >
It's an old insight that no one can talk about anything without talking about him/herself between the lines at the same time ;-)


Well, everyone has on some labyrinthine ways grown to his own taste and preferences, and after all: it's Bach, a music to which an unequalled lot of approaches seem to work. Yes, it is remarkable with which dedication Thomas takes on the assignment of Leusink-bashing - but you can believe me: I'd do the same to Rilling at every opportunity ;-)

What I find much more questionnable is Thomas' use of the word "half-voice" as a
pejorative term for singer classification, while I see it simply as a name for a vocal
technique. But I may be wrong here, since I'm no native English speaker.

< Personally, I admire the voice of Ramselaar [19], as plain as it is, his thechnique, expression and interpretation. >
I agree with you; in my opinion Ramselaar [19] does a very good job in the Brilliant series - often he outrivals even famous colleages like Kooy or Mertens in the above-mentioned respects. And I can live with the most of the other soloists in this series as well. There surely are disappointments here and there, but in most of the cases one should be happy that these works are revealed once more with again different aspects. I don't believe thone single recording could ever be enough to do full justice to a Bach cantata.

Thomas Braatz wrote (February 11, 2003):
Arjen van Gijssel stated:
>> Personally, I admire the voice of Ramselaar [19], as plain as it is, his thechnique, expression and interpretation. The same counts for Nico van der Meel (although not in this cantata), who sometimes is treated harshly by mr. Braatz. Everybody his opinion. I am not convinced at all by his claim that musicologists are wrong, and he is right.

I consider it an honour to perform with both aforementioned soloists in the cantate cycle in Rotterdam (Laurenskerk), the Netherlands<<
Anyone should consider it an honor to perform in a Bach cantata cycle! You are fortunate to have some of the solo voices which, if I were forced to compare them with soloists performing these works with church choirs in the area in which I live, I would have to admit that the soloists that you mention are better than some of those that I have heard here.

There is, however, a noticeable difference between a performance of a Bach cantata which is performed ‘at all costs’ [unfortunately not monetary] simply to be able to perform this great music and a performance that achieves true greatness. When the enthusiasm among the performers is great and achieving the goal of performing Bach is a primary objective, some magic is bound to occur (even if it may not always be apparent to very critical listeners) despite the fact that clarinets may be playing, the high trumpets missing a note here or there, or that the voices might be struggling with some particularly difficult passages.

To put it another way, a listener wishing to gain a first acquaintance with the great music contained in the Bach cantatas would probably be well served by purchasing the Leusink Bach Cantata Series. Although there is always the aspect of almost any live performance that such a recorded series can not easily replace, the advantage of actually being able to listen to a recording at the convenience of the listener is not to be underestimated. As long as the listener has nothing else to compare this experience with (other available recordings or good live performances) and if the individual listening actually participated in the recorded performances where all the ‘live’ elements of actual participation are revived upon rehearing these performances, then such a series such as Leusink’s can be considered an economical way of studying and appreciating this great music.

However, when the wealth of recordings that ‘are out there’ is examined more carefully (it is possible ‘to play ostrich’ and pretend that these recordings really do not exist, or that they have ‘fallen out of favor’), a listener with an open mind will, most likely, discover recordings of a higher quality than those produced under the time pressure exerted upon Leusink’s ensemble. These could be HIP or not. It does not seem to matter as long as true excellence is attained by combining the artistry supported by good technique and a range of expression that speaks directly to the listener.

>>. I get the impression that Thomas is living in the past, in his dislike of the use of sotto-voce in recent performances.<<
Try to think of this as the difference between a full-flavored food and one that is bland in taste. Try to imagine a harpsichordist (already there is no sustaining pedal available) trying to play every Bach keyboard composition only on a 4’ stop in a staccato fashion at very fast tempi. I have to exaggerate these comparisons in order to make a point about the singers who use the sotto-voce vocal technique almost exclusively. As I understand it, there are two basic prerequisites (perhaps there are others as well) for an outstanding singing voice: the physical ‘apparatus’ (all the organs needed for good sound production) with which not everyone is endowed from birth) and the gift of a ‘soulful’ quality which can impart a spiritual aspect of communication to the listener. Assuming that these are present, a vocal teacher will undertake to train and improve that which already exists.

In the case of the sotto-voce specialists (‘half-voices’ is the term I use because I have not yet found a better one yet) which constitute the majority of voices currently singing Bach arias and recitatives (there are always a few exceptions), these are voices that suffer deficiencies when compared to full-ranged, naturally talented voices. These ‘half-voices’ (for lack of a better term) lack the full range of notes required by many Bach arias as they have little or nothing to offer in the low ranges of their voices and may have problems controlling their voices when attempting to sing with volume and conviction in the high range. As ‘sotto-voce’ implies, these vocalists ‘lightly tap’ the notes they are trying to sing. This is a form of 'vocal cheating' which shortchanges the listener from obtaining the full impact or true substance of the music. Any attempt to use more volume (which is sometimes admittedly difficult because of the extremely fast tempi that many HIP conductors are prone to use) usually results in a negative change of voice quality (the voice tending to break under the strain, or a hooty, screaming quality.)

For half-voices, singing recitatives more as a whisper does absolutely nothing to delineate the meaning of the text, except perhaps to indicate that the singer has trouble identifying with it. If a ‘full voice’ sings piano or pianissimo in a recitative, it would indeed be a very short passage within the recitative, but the difference would also be very apparent. Such a vocalist sings from a base of power which the sotto-voce specialists lack. Behind the lesser amount of volume in the former is nonetheless a feeling of a great reserve of vocal power which usually manifests itself shortly thereafter when a return to the full voice takes place.

In short, for various reasons ‘half-voices’ are unable to give full-blooded presentations of great Bach arias and recitatives. A listener who has heard side-by-side performances of BWV 158 by Fischer-Dieskau [3] and Ramselaar [19] will very soon become aware of the vast differences between these two performances. Some would say “This is great! We have two recordings that give different interpretations of the same Bach cantata. One happens to be HIP, the other not. Isn’t that all that we are after, a greater wealth of interpretations?” At this point it is left to the individual listeners with varying tastes and ideas to decide what sounds good and is effective in moving the listener so that an opinion about the performance can be formed. That is what this list is all about, but it does help when reasons for the distinctions which are made are placed before other listeners who may, or may not, feel the same way. Who knows, perhaps some will feel that Ramselaar is better than Fischer-Dieskau? Tell us your reasons why you feel this way. Perhaps we can all learn something from this, even those that seem to be ‘living in the past.’

Continue of this part of the disussion see: Half-Voice [General Topics]

Discussions in the Week of January 21, 2007

Ed Myskowski wrote (January 20, 2007):
Introduction to BWV 158 - "Der Friede sei mit dir"

Discussion for the week of January 21, 2007

Cantata BWV 158- "Der Friede sei mit dir", Easter Tuesday (Third Day of Easter), see discussion

Date of composition and first performance unknown, see discussion.
Text, data on recordings, readings for the day, commentary, and previous discussion can be found at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV158.htm

including the following specific links:

Previous Discussion: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV158-D.htm
Provenance: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Ref/BWV158-Ref.htm
Commentaries: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Guide/BWV158-Guide

It is important to emphasize that this week continues our break in chronologic discussion of Bach's Sacred and Secular Cantatas. This brief introduction is intended to supplement and update the extensive discussion of Feb. 2003. The reason for the non-chronologic placements similar to that for BWV 143, uncertainty of manuscript provenance, but in the case of BWV 158 there is no serious question of the authenticity, only of the date of composition.

As expected, Dürr provides a concise summary of scholarly status:

<Neither its librettist nor its date of origin is known; and unless we are altogether deceived, the version transmitted is a fragment made up of several originally independent parts, from which only very inadequate conclusions may be drawn as to the original character of the work. With Philipp Spitta we must assume that the aria and the second recitative, Mvt. 2 and Mvt. 3, are the oldest parts. Their text, which deals with the yearning for death and for heavenly life, is clearly not an Easter poem, but seems to have been intended for the Feast of the Purification (the title on the wrapper of the work, which is transmitted only in manuscript copies, names as its occasion both Easter Tuesday and the Purification), for the third movement expressly refers to Simeon, whose words 'Lord, now let your servant depart in peace' belong to the Gospel for that [Purification] occasion. When these two middle movements originated is uncertain. Spitta believed that they stem from Bach's Wiemar period and wanted to ascribe the libretto to Salomon Franck, but no real confirmation of this may be found. If it were so, at the very least a radical revision of these movements must have been undertaken in Leipzig.

<The scoring of the aria, Mvt. 2, evidently has a pre-history that has not so far been clarified. This movement is the centerpiece of the cantata and a masterwork of Bach's art. A bass aria with obbligato solo violin - handled in a truly virtuoso fashion - is combined with the first verse of the hymn Welt, ade, ich bin dein müde by Johann Georg Albinus (1649) to the melody by Johann Rosenmüller, which is stated by soprano and oboe in unison. [there follow technical details questioning whether violin and oboe represent original instrumentation, as well as the structure of no. 3]

<It seems likely, then, that Mvt. 2 and Mvt. 3 are a torso, torn out of their original context, that nos. 1 and 4 were added subsequently to give the fragment a new outer frame, and that the whole work was now intended for performance on Easter Tuesday. This follows from the choice of concluding chorale - the fifth verse of Luther's hymn Christ lag in Todes Banden (1524) - as well as from the reference to the 'Lamb's Blood' in the first movement and from its closing words, 'He himself says to me: Peace be with you', for although the Purification Gospel is also concerned with peace, only in the Gospel for Easter Tuesday does Jesus himself utter the words 'Peace be with you'. Though accompanied only by continuo, this opening movement is ingeniously shaped in musical terms around three arioso passages, each on the text 'Peace be with you': at the outset, in the course of the recitative, and - most extensively- at the close.

<Despite all the open questions that remain concerning this cantata and its limited dimensions, it is nonetheless a work of high artistic rank that makes considerable demands upon its vocal and instrumental soloists. We should therefore be grateful that, at least in its present state, it has survived. <end quote>

In order to be timely, I will keep personal comments brief, and add more as discussion proceeds during the week. Two comments regarding recordings, which reflect my often expressed opinions:
(1) When a Herreweghe performance [12] exists, you will not go wrong seeking it out. Always superb, and often the benchmark.
(2) If you are limited to the Leusink [19], you will get a fair and reasonable interpretation of the music, even if not often the very best of the available recordings.

I am struck by the coincidence of the second line of no. 2: 'Salem's refuge suits me'. From Salem MA (by official choice, known as 'The Witch City') I send you Wishes (not to say Witches) for Peace.

Shalom and Aloha (and Free Hawaii!), Ed Myskowski

Peter Smaill wrote (January 21, 2007):
As has been observed , the puzzle in BWV158 is both musical and textual. It seems likely composed at at least two times in Bach's life, and on the strength of the evidence of the manuscript wrapper (?in whose hand?) has been attributed to both Epiphany (the Simeon story occurs) and the third day of Easter ("Christ lag" is quoted at the end.)

Unless the wrapper is indisputably in Bach's hand there is room for doubt. One reason, a loose end not resolved on BCW, is the perceptive observation by Dick Wursten in the last round of discussions, that the incipit "Der Friede sei mit dir" ("Peace be with you") actually relates in the Lutheran lectionary to the First Sunday after Easter , "Quasimodogeniti", and indeed Bach does set the text emphatically in BWV 67/6, also set for Bass (the voice of Jesus) and rendered there as "Friede sei mit Euch", for that day in the Church year, not the third day after Easter.

Although we have famously BWV 51, "Jauchet Gott in allen Laenden" marked "per ogni tempore", i.e. for any festival, I cannot recall any other cantata marked as being for two dissimilar festivals well apart in the Calendar.

If the wrapper is not conclusive, then the challenge is to find an ecclesiastical occasion on which both meditation on the birth of the Saviour (i.e Simeon) and on the atoning Crucifixion is apt. In addition it should be noted that the verse of "Christ lag" brings in the OT, unusually, at the end , the concept of passover and the marking of the door with lamb's blood found in Exodus.

Were it not for the wrapper, all these factors would rather suggest that this pastiche Cantata was assembled as a funeral piece, or at least a meditation more generally on Christian death, a possibility heightened by the second use by Bach of his predecessor Johannes Rosenmüller's "Welt ade, ich bin dein mude". This chorale was associated with the contemplation of death in BWV 27, which is also suspected by Duerr as being an assembly job.

It will be interesting to know if the Rosenmüller chorale, the only chorale completely by another hand which is used by Bach in the Cantatas (in BWV 27), had a very specific affekt. If so, and if the wrapper is a postscript by another hand , then the purpose of the work could lie elsewhere than the traditional attribution.

Thomas Braatz wrote (January 21, 2007):
Peter Smaill wrote:
>>...on the strength of the evidence of the manuscript wrapper (?in whose hand?) has been attributed to both Epiphany (the Simeon story occurs) and the third day of Easter ("Christ lag" is quoted at the end.) Unless the wrapper is indisputably in Bach's hand there is room for doubt.<<
As pointed out in the previous discussion (see Provenance in the midst of the discussion of BWV 158 and click on it; here is a shortcut URL: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Ref/BWV158-Ref.htm

not a single scrap of evidence for this cantata survives in Bach's hand or even showed that he had anything to do with it (corrections of copyists, figured bass, addition of articulation and dynamics, etc.).

What we have are copies by a Bach manusccollector, Christian Friedrich Penzel, who made a copy of the score (only a fragment of it survives) and parts sometime between 1755 and 1770. In 1907, Bernard Friedrich Richter reported in the Bach-Jahrbuch, 1907, p. 57 the existence of written remark/note by the copyist: "July 12, 1770, Merseburg", but this is no longer visible or has been lost in the meantime.

There is no title page, but the title on top of the 1^st page of the score reads "Festa Purif. Mariae J.S. Bach." and a cover sheet for the parts (this cover sheet also serves as the Organo part) with the title: "Festo Purif. Mariae | it | Fer. III. Paschatos | Der Friede sey mit dir, | a | Violino Solo | Basso Solo et Soprano | Fondamento | Organo transposto | di J. S. Bach."

A later copy of the score (unknown copyist), coming from Franz Hauser's collection of 4 cantatas by Bach of which this is the last, has the title: "Festo Purific: Mariae | it Fer: III Paschatos. J. S. Bach"

Another copy based upon the previous from a collection of 5 cantatas by Bach, comes from the estate of Josef Fischof and has a note from the copyist: Ant. Werner, July 31, 1839: The title is the same as the previous with the following differences/changes in orchestration: "Oboe | 2 Violini | Viola | Baßo | Fond."

>>Were it not for the wrapper, all these factors would rather suggest that this pastiche Cantata was assembled as a funeral piece, or at least a meditation more generally on Christian death, a possibility heightened by the second use by Bach of his predecessor Johannes Rosenmüller's "Welt ade, ich bin dein mude". This chorale was associated with the contemplation of death in BWV 27, which is also suspected by Duerr as being an assembly job. It will be interesting to know if the Rosenmüller chorale, the only chorale completely by another hand which is used by Bach in the Cantatas (in BWV 27), had a very specific affekt. If so, and if the wrapper is a postscript by another hand , then the purpose of the work could lie elsewhere than the traditional attribution.<<
Traditionally, Rosenmüller's setting of "Welt ade, ich bin dein müde" has a funereal association. See also: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Jesu-der-du-meine-Seele.htm

Douglas Cowling wrote (January 21, 2007):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< Traditionally, Rosenmüller's setting of "Welt ade, ich bin dein müde" has a funereal association. See also: >
It's worth noting that the setting is not a simple four-part chorale such as a conrgegation might sing, but a five-part motet (SSATB) which has antiphonal effects between the upper two and lower three voices. This straightforward kind of chorale-motet would have been the kind of music Choir II and III would sing weekly, p[erhaps even more often if it was a funeral favoirite.

Alain Bruguières wrote (January 21, 2007):
[To Thomas Braatz] As you know I'm no musicologist, however I'm a scientist...

I gather that there is no factual evidence that Bach composed this. (If I missed something, please correct me).

On the other hand, there seems to be a consensus - or unanimity - that this is Bach. (Idem).

Would this answer Ed's question, formulated during the discussions about BWV 143, in the positive?

Here is the question :
< Are there in fact other cantatas for which the factual evidence for a Bach connection is so thin? Non-existent, in fact. >
Do we decide that BWV 158 is Bach, and BWV 143 is not Bach, because the former is good enough, the latter not so?

Perhaps I should make it clear that I'd be totally flabbergasted should I learn that BWV 158 aria-with-choral is not Bach. But that's not sufficient proof, and in any case it leaves me with my doubts about BWV 143 intact.

Douglas Cowling wrote (January 21, 2007):
Alain Bruguières wrote:
< Perhaps I should make it clear that I'd be totally flabbergasted should I learn that BWV 158 aria-with-choral is not Bach. But that's not sufficient proof, and in any case it leaves me with my doubts about BWV 143 intact. >
I once heard H. Robbins Landon, the Haydn scholar, criticize modern taste quite harshly. He said we talk about the "history of music" and yet we really mean only the popular greats. When we talk about the Classical period, we really mean only Haydn and Mozart. Salieri and all the others really mean nothing to us.

He said the problem also affects the oeuvre of indivdual composers. Schubert, one of the all-time masters of the lyrical song, wrote 14 operas and yet not one of them is in the standard repertoire.

Very occasionally, a forgotten composer will break through into popular taste. Vivaldi was almost unknown until the mid-20th century when suddenly burst into popular affection. Poor Telemann, the most popular composer of the Baroque period, still has a minimal profile in public taste. His Tafelmusik has never been used for a coffee commercial.

I remember being shocked when I read that cantata BWV 53, "Schlage Doch Gewünschte Stunde" was by Hoffmann not by Bach. How could something so beautiful not be by Bach? Perhaps that's what we're encountering here in this cantata. Bach looms so large for us that it is hard to credit lesser mortals with writing fine music.

I'm sure that Bach who collected and adapted his contemporaries with keen admiration would have laughed at us.

Alain Bruguières wrote (January 21, 2007):
Alain Bruguières wrote:
<< Perhaps I should make it clear that I'd be totally flabbergasted should I learn that BWV 158 aria-with-choral is not Bach. But that's not sufficient proof, and in any case it leaves me with my doubts about 143 intact. >>

Douglas Cowling wrote:
< I remember being shocked when I read that cantata BWV 53, "Schlage Doch Gewünschte Stunde" was by Hoffmann not by Bach. How could something so beautiful not be by Bach? Perhaps that's what we're encountering here inthis cantata. Bach looms so large for us that it is hard to credit lesser mortals with writing fine music. >
That's quite true, and that's precisely why I'm slightly ill-at-ease concerning those two cantatas. The one supposedly toogood for not being Bach, the other, not good enough... Well, to be fair, we have also to consider the style, not only the overall musical quality. Still...

Douglas Cowling wrote:
< I'm sure that Bach who collected and adapted his contemporaries with keen admiration would have laughed at us. >
I can only hope that, wherever he is, Bach has no access to the content of our discussions...

Peter Smaill wrote (January 21, 2007):
Since we are now comparing the relative chances of authenticity of BWV 143 and BWV 158, can I take up a thread from the discussion of the former?

Russell Telfer observed that the opening chorus of BWV 143 has in its score not a single accidental. Since then I've scoured all my scores of Bach and can not find a single other piece, vocal or instrumental, where this is the case (ignoring the key signature for these purposes).

This may be just because my collection is small and time is precious; but is anyone else aware of a Bach work where this is the case?

Alain Bruguières wrote (January 22, 2007):
[To Peter Smaill] That observation of Russell Telfer's was very interesting. The absence of accidentals is an objective characteristic of BWV 143/1 which we should ponder. I don't know whether Bach ever wrote a(nother?) piece sharing this characteristic. Others can probably answer that question.

On the other hand, I suppose that few pieces on the scale of this chorus - whether by Bach or not - evince this characteristic. Besides, the author of BWV 143 (assuming he/she is unique) used plenty of accidentals in the subsequent numbers of this cantata. I do't really see what one can make out of this. One may conclude that this piece is simple-minded; is it too simple-minded for Bach? In any case, not too simple minded for whoever wrote this, and he/she was admittedly a good composer. May one not also imagine that the composer made a point of not using accidentals, an 'exercice de style'? '

But in any case, I'm not really comparing the ''relative chances of authenticity'; I'm in no position to assert, I can only speculate wildly on the basis of my intuition: if I were told that one and only one is Bach, I would vote BWV 158, but that doesn't lead us anywhere, I think.I am rather enquiring about what criteria we accept when questioning the authenticity of a would-be-Bach cantata, in the absence of material evidence. Is musical quality/degree of sophistication a discriminating criterion in itself?

Julian Mincham wrote (January 22, 2007):
[To Peter Smaill] I would suggest that the key point here (no pun intended) is not that there is a lack of accidentals but rather what that lack reveals i.e. that there is no modulation or change of key, not even to the dominant. Perhaps the question should be, where does Bach elsewhere write a reasonably substantial choral or instrumentatl movement which contains no modulation----not even to the dominant?

Neil Halliday wrote (January 22, 2007):
The aria with chorale is a lovely piece, with a mood that is fervent and peaceful at the same time, a perfect musical expression of the text: "World farewell, I am tired of you.I prefer Salem's [ie, heavenly Jerusalem's?] shelter..where I can forever behold God in peace and rest". The violin part has ecstatic little roulades of 32nd notes. Most commentators, including Robertson (and myself), prefer the soprano chorale to be performed by the choir sopranos, for a more ethereal chorale line.

I have Richter [6] and Rilling [7], both of which I enjoy.

A pleasant continuo and DFD's [6] mellow, full voice make even the recitatives enjoyable in Richter's recording. The final chorale begins quietly, most effectively, after which Richter ratchets up the volume to a double forte with full organ on the last line - overdone -but after all he was into magnificence, God bless him! Still, I would prefer the quiet `reverie' established at the beginning to continue all the way through, I think. (This is BWV 4's final chorale, set to different words.)

The main problem with Rilling's aria [7] is the too loud, too `bassy' continuo, which problem can be remedied to some extent by turning the bass control to the minimum setting. The lack of coloratura passages in the (vocal) bass part, passages that would be problematic if overlaid with excessive vibrato, means that even Huttenlocher (with Rilling) is quite pleasing, to my ears, in this aria.

Despite Dürr's remarks about the violin obbligato, I think this is the better instrument for the job, lending a desired fervency to the music. The flute in Rifkin [11] seems too `romantic' or too pastoral, or something.

I like most of the samples (ie, those that are available at the BCW), allowing for the fact that none of them get as far as the chorale line (in the aria), which from past experience I always prefer if sung by the requisite section of the choir.

I do not like Schreier's staccato-like treatment of the continuo; nor Koopman's `dainty' continuo and organ realisation. Leusink's continuo also somehow seems to make itself too prominent/intrusive, as if separate from the rest of the ensemble.

Beringer is pleasing in his relatively recent recording (1991), with sympathetic recitative accompaniment, bright acoustic, and pleasing articulation of the instrumental parts (IMO).

Russell Telfer wrote (January 22, 2007):
Peter Smaill wrote:
< This chorale was associated with the contemplation of death in BWV 27, which is also suspected by Duerr as being an assembly job. >
I'd like to ask you, Peter (or anyone) what exactly you think Duerr meant by 'an assembly job'? I've used my own interpretation below. It touches on a discussion in which recent contributors have all expressed their views: the authenticity of BWV 158 and BWV 143.

To quote Alain Bruguières:
< Do we decide that BWV 158 is Bach, and BWV 143 is not Bach, because the former is good enough, the latter not so? >
Documentary evidence can be convincing, but appears to be lacking in these cases. So one turns to style. Many of us have been listening to Bach all our lives and may have a strong instinct to say this movement is genuine and that one isn't. Sometimes you can quote musical analysis to support an argument - the absent accidentals in BWV 143'1 is a simple case in point. But we can certainly be deceived. An example: a Bach prelude was, I believe, recently discovered, and someone created a competition by organising the creation of some pastiche preludes in Bach's style to see who could identify the genuine one. I failed. (And some of them were of very good quality.

Coming back to 'the assembly job'. The bass aria in BWV 158 has been hailed as a masterpiece. Certainly the blending of bass and soprano gives me the strongest feeling of Bach's presence. But in pressured times, in the conditions of eighteenth century musical assembly job production, might it not be possible that the work was 'thrown together' from a combination of Bach's and other local composers' other work, rehashes, and simplified 4 part chorales like that in BWV 158?

Ed Myskowski wrote (January 22, 2007):
Russell Telfer 1685 wrote:
< Documentary evidence can be convincing, but appears to be lacking in these cases. So one turns to style. >

And tradition. See below.
< in the conditions of eighteenth century musical assembly job production, might it not be possible that the work was 'thrown together' from a combination of Bach's and other local composers' other work, rehashes, and simplified 4 part chorales like that in 158? >
In the absence of documentary evidence, almost anything is possible. The question becomes one of likelihood (probability, to some of us). It is not a question of yes or no, all or nothing.

In the case of BWV 158 vs BWV 143, stylistic probability is greater for the former. In addition, the extant text is earlier, 1755-70 for BWV 158 (see BCW - Provenance), vs early 1800's for BWV 143 (see BCW - Discussion). Surely this counts for something, even if it is impossible to say exactly what.

I am disappointed that no one has snatched at the bait of identifying possible forgers (facsimile creators?) for BWV 143. I am sticking with my original wild thought, Salieri or Beethoven, with an addendum: a collaborative effort of the two!

Julian Mincham wrote (January 22, 2007):
Ed Myskowski wrote:

I think that'wild' is the word Ed.

Are you sure that Napoleon didn't hum the bass line for Salieri to copy down?

I am no great scholar of Salieri's work but I really would wonder if he had the contrapuntal skill required to write such a work . Mozart did--see the Magic Flute Overture and the two last symphonies. But his counterpoint sounded Mozartian not Bachian in any way.

But Salieri? If anyone can put me in touch with works of his which demonstrated an equal level of contrapuntal expertise, I'd be interested. Maybe I just haven't come across them.

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (January 22, 2007):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< I remember being shocked when I read that cantata BWV 53, "Schlage Doch Gewünschte Stunde" was by Hoffmann not by Bach. How could something so beautiful not be by Bach? Perhaps that's what we're encountering here in this cantata. Bach looms so large for us that it is hard to credit lesser mortals witwriting fine music. >
Somehow I was not shocked or hurt or offended when I heard that one of my desert island works was not by Bach.

Somehow there was no reason at all to think that there were not other composers who could and did produce stunning works.

Somehow the work simply spoke and sang to me for so long that it stood as what it is.

Sadly however complete cantata sets stopped including it and that was mis-guided in my opinion.

However there are so many wonderful recordings, most, it seems, with counter-tenors amongst the recent ones. An exception is Israeli mezzo Bracha Kol whose recording is not generally available and whose recording together with the participants is one of the most felicitous.

I am sure that they are many great works which each of us has not heard.

There are many magical composers but most of them seem to have produced a couple of great works but not endless great works.

We don't really know much of Hoffmann and I doubt that we can form a judgment on him as a whole.

Then again how many works on the level of his Stabat Mater did Pergolesi produce (yes, he died at 26)?

There are the two Salve Regina settings and then a lot of things that were ascribed and a few other items including a well-known opera with which I have never really bothered.

Then there are composers like Mozart and Haydn who produced without end. Personally I find much of Mozart less than super-duper (that's my own view and cannot be argued against). I find some of Mozart amazing.

I fear that Glenn Gould felt much the same about Mozart; actually he used to express a far lower opinion.

Ed Myskowski wrote (January 22, 2007):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
<>
Julian Mincham wrote:

Yes indeed! The notorious wild speculation. Watch your tongue!

< Are you sure that Napoleon didn't hum the bass line for Salieri to copy down? >
No, I am not sure. Somehow I doubt, however.

< I am no great scholar of Salieri's work but I really would wonder if he had the contrapuntal skill required to write such a work . Mozart did--see the Magic Flute Overture and the two last symphonies. But his counterpoint sounded Mozartian not Bachian in any way.
But Salieri? If anyone can put me in touch with works of his which demonstrated an equal level of contrapuntal expertise, I'd be interested. Maybe I just haven't come across them. >
The only actual fact I can contribute is that Salieri was Beethoven's counterpoint instructor. Early on, Beethoven produced contrapuntal exercises under Salieri's tutelage. Culminating some years in the Grosse Fuge, Op. 133, with hundreds of examples in between. And plenty of time and opportunity for B. and/or S. to create BWV 143 for cash, humor, or whatever.

I challenge you or anyone to disprove it. Dibs on the screenplay royalties. I will think about whether to include Nappy humming the theme, perhaps around the time of the 'Eroica'?

Bradley Lehman wrote (January 23, 2007):
< Dibs on the screenplay royalties. I will think about whether to include Nappy humming the theme, perhaps around the time of the 'Eroica'? >
I can't get away from the image of Napoleon ("the short, dead dude") playing at the water park ("Waterloo") in "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure". Pushing all the kids out of the way, cutting in line, so he could have another turn.

Russell Telfer wrote (January 23, 2007):
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote: (in reply to Douglas Cowling - about BWV 53)
< Sadly however complete cantata sets stopped including it and that was misguided in my opinion. >
I agree! I'd like to help push this into the public domain: there is a market opportunity for someone who is prepared to create quality performances for the neglected ducklings: BWV 15, BWV 53, BWV 141, BWV 142, BWV 160, BWV 189, BWV 217, BWV 218, BWV 219, BWV 220, BWV 221 and BWV 222. I'm sure Brad, Douglas, or one of our distinguished alumni could pave the way for a bit of worthwhile enterprise.

< Personally I find much of Mozart less than super-duper (that's my own view and cannot be argued against). I find some of Mozart amazing. >
I agree again. I bought the Brilliant Complete Mozart and was surprised at how tawdry some of the music in this set is. And of course some of it is amazing too.

Eric Bergerud wrote (January 23, 2007):
[To Douglas Cowling] I'm not sure Bach was the type of gent that would have chuckled about incorrect attribution of his work, but Mr. Landon's point via Doug is certainly well taken. This brings up a question that perhaps wiser heads can answer. According to my liner notes of Herreweghe's version of BWV 158 and those accompanying the wonderful CD Apocryphal Bach Cantatas (BWV 15, BWV 141, BWV 142, BWV 160) by Wolfgang Helbich there were a number of Bach works originally attributed to JSB that have been "defrocked" - mostly in relatively modern times. It would be very interesting to know how many Bach instrumental works were in this category. Anyway, all of the works on Helbich's were attributed as early Bach as was 158 according to Wolff. The good gents first attempting to catalog Bach's works seem to have started with the basics: let's find the works with Bach's signature, hand writing or a solid attribution from a good source. Contemporary research as proved them wrong on occasion. However, were they wrong because they didn't know Bach's works or those of his contemporaries well enough, or were they more easily fooled because they were dealing with very large amounts of early 18^th century music and were thus vulnerable to misjudging the work of a lesser composer who happened to have a very good day. In other words, did they have too much or too little data? Anyway, pity the poor musicologists. Anyone dealing with stylistic analysis for attribution or interpretation is always skating on thin ice. (Think of how many fewer Rembrandt's we have these days thanks to modern analytical techniques.) Gives one a case of the humbles. Of course now we have copyright: too bad there's so little music worth preserving. (And if Bach didn't compose Schlage Doch he should have, or at least used bells more often.)

BTW: Actually there are some Schubert operas out there. I have Fierrabras which has some really nice music, but a dopey libretto. Judging from the lyrics of his songs, Schubert was no master of the word. I wonder if inane plots might not have kept some of Schubert's operas off the stage. But heaven knows opera fans are fickle. I've also developed a pretty hefty Telemann collection and love it dearly. He couldn't match Bach day in day out, but why Vivaldi gets better press is beyond me.

Continue of this part of the discussion, see: Non-Bach Cantatas - Part 3

Eric Bergerud wrote (January 23, 2007):
Russell Telfer wrote:
< I agree! I'd like to help push this into the public domain: there is a market opportunity for someone who is prepared to create quality performances for the neglected ducklings: BWV 15, BWV 53, BWV 141, BWV 142, BWV 160, BWV 189, BWV 217, BWV 218, BWV 219, BWV 220, BWV 221 and BWV 222. I'm sure Brad, Douglas, or one of our distinguished alumni could pave the way for a bit of worthwhile enterprise.
<< Personally I find much of Mozart less than super-d(that's my own view and cannot be argued against). I find some of Mozart amazing. >>

It would be nice to get every out of print recording available online. A good project for Aryeh on a slow day. However, all (or at least most) of the works listed below are available and in print. Wolfgang Helbich's two volumes are both really nice: I recommend Vol II with no hesitation. There are six Schlage Doch's out there but only Ms. Kielland's is sung by a mezzo: the others are countertenors.

As for Mozart, I have lots of serenades, diverimentii etc: the things he did to pick up a quick dollar or whatever he picked up. There is a real lack of profundity in many of such works, but what strikes me is how "pretty" they all are. Perfect music for reading, cleaning the room or accompanying my trusty combat flight simulator. Might add that some months back I mentioned that the Requiem did not really impress me. Since then I've picked up two wonderful recordings (Harnoncourt and Hogwood) and hmm.... my bad. The work is a masterpiece.

Ed Myskowski wrote (January 23, 2007):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< The aria with chorale is a lovely piece, with a mood that is fervent and peaceful at the same time, a perfect musical expression of the text: "World farewell, I am tired of you.I prefer Salem's [ie, heavenly Jerusalem's?] shelter.. >
Writing from the comfort of Salem MA, USA (by official choice, The Witch City), I have to wonder about heavenly Jerusalem.

My area was known to the original inhabitants as something like Naumkeag, meaning good place to fish. Then came the Great Nations of Europe, renaming it Salem in the name of the Lord, in about 1626 or 1629. Opinions vary as to the exact details.

Not long after, the local slave trade originated. Not with Africa. Among the English colonies of Salem and Barbados, trading Indian captives.

Salem (heavenly Jerusalem) indeed! Bring back Naumkeag, good fishing place. Keep your Lord.

Thank you for placing the ? . I would be interested in other interpretations of the Biblical reference to Salem.

Douglas Cowling wrote (January 24, 2007):
Ed Mskowski:
< Thank you for placing the ? . I would be interested in other interpretations of the Biblical reference to Salem. >
Bach uses the image in the final chorus of Cantata BWV 182, "Himmelskönig Sei Willkommen".

So lasset uns gehen in Salem der Freuden,
Begleitet den König in Lieben und Leiden.
Er gehet voran
Und öffnet die Bahn.

So let us go forth to that Salem of gladness,
Attend ye the King both in love and in sorrow.
He leadeth the way
And opens the path.

Cantata 158, mv 2

Johan van Veen wrote (November 15, 2007):
I have been listening to the recently released recording of three cantatas with Gotthold Schwarz and La Stagione Frankfurt [23]. One of the cantatas is BWV 158. The solo part in the aria (Mvt. 2) is played here on the transverse flute, which - according to Alfred Dürr - could be what it was originally written for. In the discussion about this cantata from 2003 I saw that Joshua Rifkin [11] has recorded it with a flute, but what about recordings made since then? As I am preparing a review of this recording for MusicWeb I would like to know if there are other recordings - apart from Rifkin - which use a flute.

Thanks.

Julian Mincham wrote (November 15, 2007):
[To Johan van Veen] I do know that Koopman and Leusink both use violin obligato for this movement.

Bradley Lehman wrote (November 15, 2007):
< In the discussion about this cantata from 2003 I saw that Joshua Rifkin [11] has recorded it with a flute, but what about recordings made since then? >
I quickly checked the older Schröder [4], Herreweghe [12], and Leusink [19], all of which used violin.

And Müller-Brühl [22] (Naxos, recorded May 30^th or June 1^st 2004) uses flute. The flautist's name is Daniel Rothert. Tina Scherer sings the cantus firmus.

N.B. to Aryeh: my copy of the Naxos has different cover art from the one displayed at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV158.htm
A scan is here: Amazon.com

I'm amused by the way Amazon is now selling classical albums chopped down to separate mp3 tracks at 90 cents per track. Maybe this way some recitative-phobes can grab only the handful of arias they care about?

Jean Laaninen wrote (November 15, 2007):
[To Bradley Lehman] I did not know about the Amazon downloads for MP3, but it would be an understatement to say that Bach isn't featured much on the opera and vocal list. For a singer, however, being able to download a particular song as a part of the learning process is very handy, but even though this list has 400 numbers available I saw very little that would be handy for singers. For MP3 players, however, some might find the service useful.

Anyway, thanks for the heads up on the Amazon project...maybe it will be useful to someone.

Cantata BWV 158: Complete Recordings | Recordings of Individual Movements | Discussions

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Last update: ýNovember 15, 2007 ý22:25:23