Cantata BWV 131 - Discussions

Cantata BWV 131
Aus der Tiefen rufe ich, Herr, zu dir
Discussions - Part 1

About BWV 131

Mario Gatti wrote (January 3, 1998):
(To Henny) I red your message about BWV 131 and I am agree with you that Harnoncourt interpretation [9] is acttually the best. Regarding the dynamics suggestions that bach wrote I have found the following on the score and text (I suppose a urtext:...) in the edition of Teldec (1983):

Adagio from measure 1 to 56 (Chorus “Aus der Tiefe rufe ich”); Vivace from 57 to 97 (motet “Herr, hore meine Stimme”); Andante from 98 to 162 ( Bass solo with oboe and continuo “So du willst, Herr”); Adagio from 163 to 167 ( Chorus “Ich harre des Herrn”); Largo from 168 to 201 ( motet “Meine Seele Harret”); Adagio from 202 to 286 ( Tenor solo with continuo “Meine Seele wartet,” with cantus firmus over choral Herr Jesus Christ, du hochstes Gut); Adagio from 287 to 289 (chorus “Israel”) ;Un poc’Allegro (sic) from 230 to 299 ( chorus “hoffe auf den Herrn”); Adagio from 300 to the middle of 307 (“Denn bei dem Herrn ist Gnade”); Allegro from the middle of 307 to 355 (“und viel Erlosung bei ihm” and final fugue “und er wird Israel erlosen”) ; finally Adagio in the last three measures (356-358 over the words “allein seinen Sunden).

And now my personal opinion (that is obviously matter of discussion ): all these suggestions were introducted by Bach in a period later that composition of this Cantata. So (always in my opinion) there are not apocryf. Otherways, is notorius that JSB was useful to remake and adjust in the maturity the compositions of his youth.

I like very much BWV131 and i am happy for the opportunity to discuss about it, and it’s structure.

Rifkin and alternative versions of BWV 131

Ehud Shiloni wrote (March 9, 1998):
[10] (Snip) As for BWV 106/BWV 131 - I have this CD and it is one of my favorites, especially BWV 131. Of the six versions I have of this beautifull cantata, Rifkin's version is by far the best (for me.. of course). I seem to have failed in drumming-up supporters for Gardiner's dynamic version of BWV 198, so I doubt that many on the list will share my enthusiasm for Rifkin's BWV 131 - after all, his is the version with the quickest tempo!!

Any comments? <Snip>

Mark Dennison wrote (March 9, 1998):
[10] (To Ehud Shiloni) <Snip> I must try and find an alternative version of BWV 131 to Rifkin's. Any suggestions?

Pieter-Jelle de Boer wrote (March 9, 1998):
Marc Seiler wrote, concerning Cantata BWV 131:
[10] < I've heard the version of the BWV 131 by Concentus musicus Wien and Nikolaus Harnoncourtwith the Tölzer Knabenchor [9]. It's the oldest sacred cantatas of J.S . and so must be have a very "lightly interprtation" a real service of the words and no emphase. The simplicity of this work give all the emotion,without needing the emotion of the singers. His interprtation must be techiquelly perfect with precises voices. >
I don't know if I can totally agree on that. These early cantatas always have a profound, pietist (is that proper English?), almost mystic atmosphere about them (like BWV 106), so in my view, they need not an over-emotional approach (I do agree on that one), but not light, or, even worse, light-hearted. These cantatas concern very profound subjects (well... they all do, but these in particular). Actually, I'm speaking mostly about BWV 106, BWV 131 and (which is a bit newer) BWV 21, since I don't know many more of Bachs oldies. Which other cantatas did he write in his youth? Anyway, IMO they need a somewhat distant approach, though very intense, you might say: emotional from within. I find it quite astonishing how Bach, in his youth, seems to be able to touch upon all the different emotions that these cantatas involve so well. One can hear that he went really "into" their texts, and while their compositional level is perhaps not as high as in the later ones, their profundity is enormous. Question: Do the Leipzig cantatas "lack" a certain amount of this profundity due to the fact that Bach had to write them in such little time? <Snip>

BWV 131 "Aus der Tiefe rufe ich, Herr, zu dir" from J.S. Bach

Henny van der Groep wrote (September 14, 1998):
[9] The reflection about this work is based on the record of Harnoncourt only, however I have another one from Koopman too for I did compare them. Have much fun! Hope you don't mind it's so long.

Text: Psalm 130 1,3,5 + Psalm 51; Bartholomaus Ringwaldt (1588) verse 2,5 of The chorale "Herr Jesu Christ, du hochstes Gut."

Some criticism I use:
A. Words or phrases which have certain meanings and where Bach used some Affects to underline the expression musically must be clearly audible.
B. Tempi should be made in similarity with the text and score.
C. The chorus and soli have to sing with passion and expression.
D. Dynamics should be used deliberately when the text contains the word Rufe it should be RUFE.
E. The difference in articulation must be clear.
F. The orchestra and solo instruments should form a unity and must play vividly and passionate.
G. The difference in character between all movements like chorus, aria and recitative must be plain.

Strength according the score: Oboe, Violin, Viole l, Viole 2, Chorus, Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass, Fagott, and Continuo

Alan Bergius, Soprano
Paul Esswood, Alto
Kurt Equiluz, Tenor
Robert Holl, Bass

Tölzer Knabenchor
Chorus Master: Gerhard Schmidt-Gaden
Concentus Musicus Wien
Nikolaus Harnoncourt
Teldec Das Kantatenwerk Vol.7 CD5 4509-91761-2

1. Sinfonia +Chorus (SATB): "Aus der Tiefe rufe ich, Herr, zu dir" 5'16
Oboe, Fagot, Violin, Viole, Organ

2. Aria (Duet: Soprano, Basso): "So, du willst, Herr, Sünde zurechnen" 4'30
Oboe, Cello and Organ

3. Chorus (SATB): "Ich harre des Herrn" 4'52
Oboe, Fagott, Violin, Viole, Violoncello, Organ

4. Aria (Tenor, Alto: "Meine Seele wartet auf den Herrn" 5'34
Cello, Organ

5. Chorus (SATB): "Israel, hoffe auf den Herrn" 4'49
Oboe, Fagott, Violin, Viole, Basso Continuo (organ)

The recording of this CD is not always satisfying. The violins often sound shrill and thin.

Pocket score of BWV 131 edited by Hans Grischkat Publisher Ernst Eulenburg Ltd.

1. Adagio = Lento (Herz!) 3/4 MM 58
The Sinfonia begins in a slow tempo suggesting the atmosphere of longing and desperation caused by the falling melody. On the background of the beautiful dialogue between oboe and violin, sound the stately steps of the walking to the Lord, until the boys choir takes over.
A. The word "Tiefe" (deep) that is clearly sung from the bottom of the soul, suggested by Bach through the falling rhythm (nearly struggling) and melody, needs just the tiny sforzando like one can hear. The word "Rufe" (calling) sounds like calling nearly shouting (Bach made a big leap) with a crescendo and the word "Herr" is sung powerful and compelling with a little emphasis just enough to make the sound let's say Largo like Bach suggest in the score.
B. Vivace C
The tempo change to MM 80 should suggest restlessness but sounds corny and is done a bit jolting. Bach repeats the word Herr in a magnificent way. First on the strong beat and secondly very short on the weak part of the measure and the choir is singing very persuasive. The complete sentence "Herr, Herr höre meine Stimme laß deine Ohren merken auf die Stimme meines Flehens" has a certain structure. Bach let the choir sing a. "Herr, herr höre meine Stimme". b. "Herr, herr höre meine Stimme laß deine Ohren merken auf die Stimme meines Flehens" 2x and ends with a. "Herr höre meine Stimme". He moves on by repeating the whole sentence without the word "Herr" in a fugal way of composing. This kind of symmetric edification's is the heart and structure of the cantata and will come back in several different ways. The word "Flehen" (supplication) is beautifully sung by all voicesand sounds smoothly and soft with balanced dynamics as fantastic diminuendos. Bach expressed this word ("Flehen") with melismas to emphasis the supplication. The echo played by oboe and violin is just perfect: they really sound like a supplication!

On the whole this movement sounds beautiful and dramatically. Except the transition between the first sentence, which goes not very smoothly and the second sentence, which moves along in a somewhat slow tempo. A striking figure in measure 88 is the echo of the word Flehen, this appears in the second part Arioso (measure 98) on the words "du willst", and can be considered as the most important motive of the whole Arioso. It's at least remarkable to find out Bach used this motive in the first movement while it's a segment from the psalm: "Herr Jesus Christ, du Hochsten Gut". Perhaps he wrote the second movement at first. The orchestra and ensemble of the violin and oboe is just perfect. Imperceptible the music moves on to the second part.

2. Andante MM 108 (eighth's uitzoeken)
Arioso
With a C.F singing Verse 2 of the chorale "Herr Jesus Christ du hochstes Gut", Harnoncourt found a magnificent solution by not placing the Bass and soprano at one place next to one another, but he placed the Bass on the background, so we can hear the Cantus Firmus crystal clear, while he sings his melody above it. The oboe just completes the Trinity. It's sung beautifully with deep emotions by both. The Bass sounds lovely and like a plea. The word "Fürchte" (fear) expressed by the Bass sounds with a natural vibration like someone who is trembling by the thought (in awe) of a confrontation with the Lord. The Cello and Organ support this movement. "Denn bei dir ist die Vergebung" sounds convincingly and very touching. The beauty in this Arioso, conducted by Bach and Harnoncourt is beyond description.

3. Adagio MM 42
A. Three times the choir sings "Ich harre des Herrn". Bach expressed those words by repeating them on three chords while every voice sings the same note from that chord. This suggests a kind of standstill, a waiting for the Lord. The choir sings those words three times differently and somewhat shouting.
B. Largo
Then Harnoncourt changes the tempo slightly in MM 38. The music develops in a real Largo. The choir sings "Meine Seele harret und ich hoffe, ich hoffe, ich hoffe, ich hoffe auf sein Wort" lovely and soft. The oboe and violin weaves the words together. It's like there's no end the music goes on and on. "Ich hoffe" is finally finishing in a fugue. The fugue moves along to a Crescendo, and the longing sounds more desperate. At the end the music is soft and slow. This is the centre of the cantata and Harnoncourt does this very expressively and dramatically.
A. Adagio "Und dich hoffe auf sein Wort" at the last three measures! It's surely no coincidence; Bach used the same instrumentation as no.1.

4.MM 60 (184) quart
Arioso
With a C.F. singing verse 5 of the same chorale as no.2. This Aria sung by a Tenor with an Alto as Cantus Firmus sounds like a dance rhythm and has an accompaniment from the rocking ostinate Cello and modest Organ. Alto and Tenor are intermingled. The text from the Alt is not always audible and the boy sounds not always convincingly and pure! Again the two voices and Cello form a Trinity. "Meine Seele wartet auf den Herrn" is a mixture of sadness and gladness. "Von einer Morgenwache" sounds desperate at the end.

5.
The way I see the last part is very complicated. Martin Petzoldt wrote an article about it in Volume 1 of The Cantata book from Christoph Wolff and Ton Koopman. Five words are important, they have a key position and one can find them in the five Chapters of the catechisms from Luther. The words refer to the five movements Bach wrote and perhaps even to the structure of the last part, which in my view is related to the same words and also contains five parts.
Lord 1. Intro 3x "Israel" (adagio)
Behold 2. "Hoffe auf den Herrn" 3x + a recapitulation of the whole piece 3x (un poco allegro)
Me 3. "Denn bei dem ist die Genade" 3x (adagio)
Transgressions
4. "Und viel Erlösung" = Fortspinnungs motive, where oboe and violin are playing rising sequence as a kind of transition to the fugal part (measure 21-27 allegro)
Mercy 5. The Conclusion ends in a permutation fugue, the words "Und er will Israel erlosen" are sung repeatedly.

Adagio
A. The Intro with the words "Israel" sounds the same as the beginning of part three "Ich harre des Herrn" It's like a moment of standstill as before. Again Harnoncourt's choir sings this very convincingly rather firm, three times on three different ways and three different chords loud and not so lovely.
Un poco Allegro
B. "Hoffe auf den Herrn" again three times the whole sentence which Bach repeats fully, goes a bit faster with different dynamics and it reminds me of Chorus 3. "Ich hoffe".
Adagio
C. Then the chorus sounds slow and tragically "Bei dem Herr ist die Gnade" three times fully repeated, the oboe moves yearning through the whole.
Allegro
It is followed by a brightly rising melody described in "Und viel Erlösung" (measure 21). This is masterly found by Bach and for me a represent to the fugue.
D. Finally the chorus sings the fugue in a fantastic way especially the boys with the words "Und er will Israel erlosen" for it's simplicity, sincerity and gladness/joy which is clear in at first a rising and later at the end a falling melody. The difficult word "Erlosen" for its melismas is brilliantly done! By it's infinity chromatic runs up and down. At the background Bach used a chromatic augmentation "Aus allen seinen Sünden"!

Adagio
A. At the end the music again has a standstill and is done full of expression and this magnificent movement ends with 3x "Aus allen seinen Sünden" after another in each voice (the last three measures! are ending in an adagio on the same words).

This movement has the same instrumentation as No.1 and No.3.

Harnoncourt strong view about the Affects makes this cantata varied and exiting. Rhythmically it sounds convincing. This has to do with the accents he is making on certain places it's obvious Harnoncourt must have known the text of this cantata by head and heart! Almost everything sounds magnificent and balanced. With real pianissimos, diminuendos and crescendos, all well considered and yet natural! This version sounds vividly and passionate. It's nice to hear the difference in timbre between the movements. Not one part sounds the same, which is probably due to the fact Harnoncourt used different strength of the voices and instruments. The orchestra is dedicated and sometimes a bit dull. Sometimes there are too heavy accents like in the last movement and this makes it slow and drawn. The solo instruments are beautiful in balance with the voices. I think Harnoncourt made a fine choice to use a boy soprano and a man chorus. It sounds wonderful in this particular cantata. Although there's one problem with young voices, for they are technically not so well in articulation. Very often it sounds Legato. It doesn't disturb me in this cantata but knowing the others...

BWV 131

Kirk McElhearn wrote (October 24, 1999):
In my recent listening of the complete cantatas, I came up to BWV 131 yesterday. I sometimes listen while I work, using them more as background music, and not really paying attention. But yesterday, at the end of the day, I lay down and put on Vol.7 CD 4 of the complete cantatas [9]. I was transfigured, literally, by BWV 131. I suddenly discovered a cantata that was quite different from many of the others, with the most beautifully haunting melodies, and tapestries of choral passages with (whatever it is called) that sinuous melody line floating behind the voices (No.3 of the cantata). The closing Choral is also a masterpiece.

IMHO, this is one of the most beautiful cantatas, and, Simon, if you are reading this, I think you should have given it a 1+ rating.

I then read the liner notes, and discovered that it was Bach's first cantata! No wonder it was so different, he had not yet gotten into a "routine" and a more "stereotyped" style for his cantatas and their mov.

By all means, listen to this one.

BTW, anyone interested in setting up a mailing list to listen to and discuss, say, one cantata per week? It could be interesting...

Ehud Shiloni wrote (October 25, 1999):
(To Kirk McElhearn) What a fitting way to start the new discussion venue with BWV 131! I can say: "My thoughts exactly"! I believe that Simon indicates on his cantata site that he intends to establish a section titled: "Don’t take my word for it", where alternative ratings can be posted. When that happens, we can both pitch-in with our higher rating...

And talking about recordings, my favourite version of BWV 131 is the one by Rifkin and The Bach Ensemble on Decca [10]. It is a "one-voice-per-part" quartet performance, with Ann Monoyios singing heavenly Soprano, and the interpretation brisk and energetic. Highly recommended.

Matthew Westphal wrote (October 28, 1999):
(To Kirk McElhearn) You assumed the shape of a cat? An angel? A Baroque oboe? Sorry, Kirk - I don't mean to mock you, but you've hit a real pet peeve of mine: using the word "literally" when you don't mean “literally” -- that is, when you are in fact describing an experience “with a metaphor”, however intense that experience may have been.

[14] Another very fine one-voice-per-part recording is by the American Bach Soloists. In BWV 131, Julianne Baird isn't quite as heavenly as Ann Monoyios is, but she's very good indeed; the other soloists (Drew Minter, Benjamin Butterfield, and James Weaver) are better on the whole. This disc also includes fine performances of BWV 182 "Himmelskonig, sei willkommen" (Christine Brandes, Judith Malafronte, Jeffrey Thomas, James Weaver) and BWV 4 "Christ lag in Todesbanden" (using cornett and trombones with soloists Judith Nelson [sounding nearly as good as she did in the early-mid 1980's, much better than in other recent recordings], Daniel Taylor, Benjamin Butterfield and Kurt-Owen Richards). The ABS does some of the most interesting and beautiful instrumental work I've ever heard in Bach cantatas.

Joseph Guarascio wrote (November 17, 1999):
So if it is agreed that we begin discussing our current favourite cantatas (and I say "current" because we all know that there is no absolute favourite, only a temporal one), let the discussion begin. I would definitely be interested in discussing BWV 131, one of my current favourites.

Kirk McElhearn wrote (November 17, 1999):
I recently "discovered" BWV 131, and was quite impressed by it. Here is what I wrote about it recently (see message from October 24, 1999). By all means, listen to this one.

Henny van der Groep wrote (November 18, 1999):
May I give some advice? Perhaps it's needless to say. Jan Koster wrote an excellent front page of the cantatas. He describes "the Affects" in the cantatas, which is in my view together with the "Rhetoric" a very important issue. So it might be useful to read this first when we start with BWV 131. I have the feeling if we all know how important this is, we can even convince Simon Crouch to change his rating. If somebody wants to know more about those "Affects" I will try to explain this (I hope with some help from others, please) with words from BWV 131 as an example. Just a thought.

Marie Jensen wrote (November 19, 1999):
Put earphones on my tired Friday evening head (BWV 131 the BCJ) [16]. Took it twice, what I wouldn't have done if it weren’t for my new group. BWV 131 has never been among my favourites. I relaxed, but those Buxtehudian, pre-Italian-influence cantatas doesn't have the special Bach sound, that takes me high. I don't feel so with all the compositions of young Bach, for example BWV 106 and BWV 71 and some instrumental ones.

The oboe however, for me often a symbol of human praying or talking to God is however nice here and definitely Bach. Also the Bass is given value and is not just trivial chords.

Henny van der Groep wrote (November 19, 1999):
(To Marie Jensen) It's funny I had some other thoughts concerning his early works this week. Suddenly it came to my mind how mature this cantata was (I hope you don't mind Marie). Full of Affects and the Fugue at the end but also something unique! He is playing already with numbers in this one. I am enthusiastic about this cantata, let me explain:

The way I see the last movement is very complicated. Martin Petzoldt wrote an article about it in Vol.1 of the Cantata book from Christoph Wolff and Ton Koopman.

Five words are important, they have a key position and one can find them in the five Chapters of the Catechisms from Luther. The words refer to the five movements Bach wrote and perhaps even to the structure of the last part, which in my view is related to the same words and also contains five parts.

LORD 1. Intro 3x Israel (adagio)
BEHOLD 2. Hoffe auf den Herrn 3x + a recapitulation of the whole piece 3x (un poco allegro)
ME 3. Denn bei dem ist die Genade 3x(adagio)
TRANSGRESSIONS 4. Und viel Erlösung = a "Fortspinnungs motive", where oboe and violin are playing a rising sequence as a kind of transition to the fugal part (measure 21-27 Allegro).
MERCY 5. The Conclusion ends in a permutation fugue, the words "Und er will Israel erlosen” are sung repeatedly.

There's more to say about this movement but as you said it's Friday evening.

Yes, I agree with you, I find both movements very beautiful.

Marie Jensen wrote (November 20, 1999):
(To Henny van der Groep) Thank you very much for your interesting and quickly sent comments. BWV 131 is not just another untalented twelve on the dozen baroque cantatas. It is young Bach on his way. But our points of view are very different. I have to do some personal explanation. When it comes to Bach appreciation and listening, it takes place on different levels and for many different purposes. Without looking down on any of them I can mention: the musicologist way, the musician way, the religious way (the text is the centre), the absorbed contemplative way, the therapy way, the entertaining sounding wall paper way, not meant as strictly disjunction, and the ways are more or less analyzing.

When I listen, I try to be very concentrated. Sometimes I listen analyzing, but mostly I try just to flow with the music. I never read scores (but was in a period playing recorder in an amateur baroque ensemble - sorry neighbours!). The ability of the music to lift me up and take me high is important. No one can do that like Bach.

And what cannot be heard in this simple communication musician/audience is not important for me in the first place. Then later I can read analysises, theories, numerological thoughts, biographic comments but never in larger scale, and of course they somehow get integrated in my listening.

Anyway I'm very happy to learn and to read all your comments about BWV 131. The universal Bach sound transcending the baroque cannot be born from day to day. The young Bach gradually takes steps in this direction, directly audible or in deeper structures, which have to be analyzed. In BWV 4 another early one, there is a symmetric structure concerning the numbers of singers, Chorus/duet, solo, Chorus, solo, duo, Chorus, (though I have also heard it Chorus only), which is clear without any explanation. In his later production many "now and here" heard examples often show up. Finally I admire all Bach’s intellectual and structural stunts, audible as non-audible, and I definitely look forward to our future list discussions.

Patrik Enander wrote (November 20, 1999):
But I have always enjoyed Bach after hearing the Goldbergs and for the last couple of years Bach has been the one composer I have always return to, especially the cantatas. One of my first CD’s was BWV 131 with Herreweghe and Collegium Vocale on Virgin [12]. It is still one of my favourite discs. Peter Kooy is excellent, so is the choir and of course Marcel Ponseele, a remarkable oboist. I halways enjoyed Herreweghe’s intimate approach to Bach so I really recommend this CD.

Suzuki - Vol. 2

Ryan Michero wrote (December 20, 1999):
[16] If Vol. 1 was a bit tentative, Vol. 2 is where Suzuki and the BCJ really hit their stride. It includes great performances of two "favourite" cantatas (BWV 106 and BWV 131, the latter a particular favourite of Suzuki) and one lesser-known piece (BWV 71). This is an essential volume!

BWV 131 - "Aus der Tiefe rufe ich, Herr, zu dir"
An inspired performance. The Adagio section of the opening choral Sinfonia is gorgeously sung and played, with outstanding oboe playing by Marcel Ponseele. I'm listening to it now through my terrible computer speakers, and it still gives me chills! When the Vivace section begins on the words "Herr, höre meine Stimme", Suzuki shows his talent at conducting fugues. He is helped by clear, alert choral singing. A great first movement! Kooy and Midori Suzuki sing the following aria with chorale beautifully, and Ponseele again impresses with his oboe playing. The central choral movement is relaxed and gentle, with a lovely finish. The tenor aria with alto chorale is also nicely sung, capturing the hope in the text. And never underestimate the importance of a great continuo section: the excellent playing of the cello (Hidemi Suzuki) and organ are crucial to the success of this movement. Suzuki's handling of tempo and dynamics changes in the final chorus are very effective, and the choir sounds amazing. A beautifully shaped chromatic double-fugue brings the work to an exciting close.

Patrik Enander wrote (January 21, 2000):
(Ponseele playing in) BWV 82 with Kuijken, BWV 131 and BWV 21 with Herreweghe is magic to me.

Ryan Michero wrote (February 1, 2000):
(To Patrick Enander) Well, I just listened to BWV 82 with Kuijken last night. WOW. You're right, Patrik. I no longer object to the use of the word "sublime" when discussing Marcel Ponseele. He is a player of rare musical feeling and tonal beauty.

BWV 131 (Aus der Tiefen...) modern instruments

Brennan (Brs36) wrote (March 4, 2000):
I'm looking for a recording of cantata BWV 131 performed on modern instruments with a choir of more than 4. However, I don't want a "cast of thousands" recording. Any recommendations?

ESH Tooter wrote (March 4, 2000):
(To Brennan) Amazing! I'm looking for exactly that cantata but without all of the limitations you specify. Modern or HIP is fine with me so long as its emotionally potent.

Brennan (Brs36) wrote (March 4, 2000):
(To ESH Tooter) I already have a Decca CD with Joshua Rifkin and the Bach Ensemble [10]. I find this BWV 131 (w/ authentic instrument etc.) absolutely beautiful. It has a very intimate sound that fits the text very well. I hope to get everybody's version of it because it's such a wonderful piece.

Don Patterson wrote (March 4, 2000):
(To Brennan) Rilling on Hänssler Classics [7]. Good, conservative reading. I tend to prefer HIP in this music. Even better would be Richter on Archiv. Is this available on CD?

George Murnu wrote (March 5, 2000):
(To Brennan) Rilling [7] or Fritz Werner [4].

Philip Peters wrote (March 5, 2000):
(To ESH Tooter) One of each: Crook, Kooy with Herreweghe (1982) [12] & Jelden, Stämpfli with Werner (1964 and not reissued on CD AFAIK but very good) [4].

Discussions in the Week of March 12, 2000

Aryeh Oron wrote (March 12, 2000):
Background

This is the week of cantata BWV 131, according to Jane Newble's suggestion. This cantata is so famous and such a good introduction to the whole world of Bach cantatas, that I believe that everybody in the group knows already something about it. Therefore I would not like to quote this time from any source, and I shall put my impressions about the 8 recordings of this sublime cantata that I have. But I cannot avoid couple of words about BWV 131 before putting my opinions in writing. Firstly, I believe that this cantata is a complete unity and should not be broken into pieces. I mean that you have to hear it in one sitting. Secondly, It is very delicate and fragile piece of music. Once you know the cantata, you realize how complicated it is to make a through and perfect performance from all aspects. And sometimes, even one small aspect of the performance, which is not on a satisfactory level, might ruin the enjoyment from a performance, of which all other components are very good.

For those who need some background on BWV 131, there are some sources on the Web.

Original German text: http://uofapsy.psych.ualberta.ca/cantatas/131.html
A good English translation by Z. Philip Ambrose: http://www.uvm.edu/~classics/faculty/bach/
Simon Crouch Cantata pages: http://www.classical.net/~music/comp.lst/works/bachjs/cantatas/131.html
Jan Koster Cantatas Project: http://odur.let.rug.nl/Linguistics/diversen/bach/cantatas/bwv131.html

Personal Viewpoint

And something personal:
The magic of the music of this cantata is indeed very strong. Last Sunday evening, on my way home from the office I realized that this is the week of BWV 131. I started to sing it to myself, and then I became aware that the music that was coming out from my CD player in the car is Jazz and not Bach. But somehow the rhythm of the piano player (Allen Farnham) suited the music of Bach. When I came home I put one of the recordings of BWV 131 in the CD player, and just when the singing of the first Chorus came out, my partner left everything and came down to the basement. We heard 4 recordings of BWV 131 in consequence (Rilling [7], Thomas, Herreweghe, and Ramin) and we stopped only because we wanted to leave something to the other days of the week. Then I suggested hearing some Schubert and my partner said that Bach is not so easily to be left yet. On Wednesday it was not a problem to tempt my partner listening to 4 more recordings of BWV 131 (Harnoncourt, Suzuki, Rifkin, and Koopman).

Review of the Recordings

Hereinafter I shall put my pros and cons about every one of those 8 recordings. See: Cantata BWV 131 – Recordings

[2] Günther Ramin (1952)
Pros: Although this performance is very unusual to contemporary taste, it is working splendidly. You get the feeling that it is very Protestant performance, as though the community is singing. Very enthusiastic and fresh singing of the Chorus and the angelic and naive voices of the boys can be heard very clearly. The Tenor has very unique and beautiful voice. The tempos, which sound at first very slow, becoming gradually convincing when you get used to them.
Cons: The Bass has very limited voice, mostly on the lower range and he does not convince that he understands what he sings. The playing of instrumental parts are very unsatisfactory, to say the least.

[9] Nikolaus Harnoncourt (1983)
Pros: An exciting interpretation from an unexpected source. Harnoncourt’s interpretation has more legato that could be expected, based on his interpretations of other cantatas. The Chorus parts are sung very cleanly. Every voice is heard, and in some way they remind Ramin’s Choir. In the second movement Harnoncourt uses a boy Soprano with an angelic voice, instead of Choir, and it contrasts beautifully with the very low voice of the Bass. Equiluz never fails to touch your heart, and here (the 4^th movement) he outdoes himself.
Cons: Some of the interpretations to the individual movements sound strange, such as opening of the last movement. I would also like to hear more warmth.

[10] Joshua Rifkin (1985)
Based some previous recommendations, I had high hopes from this recording, but instead I had major disappointment.
Pros: The singing of Brownless.
Cons: All other factors. This recording proves once again that the one voice per part is unsuitable for this cantata. In comparison to this, Thomas’ interpretation sounds to me much better. At least he seems to believe in what he does, where Rifkin gives to every movement a lightweight and danceable treatment. It sounds so improper and the meditative and sombre atmosphere of the whole cantata is getting lost.

[7] Helmuth Rilling (1974)
Pros: The atmosphere is right. The soft and round approach of Rilling suits very well this cantata. Kraus singing is so beautiful and expressive. He is not shy of expressing his feelings. The Choir is a little bit bigger than is needed, but they sing marvellously.
Cons: The conducting is a little bit heavy from time to time and some of the accompaniments are not sensitive enough. The last movement sounds too slow. Schöne singing is authoritative but lacks flexibility.

[12] Philippe Herreweghe (1990)
Pros: When I heard the opening Chorus, I thought that this is going to be the ultimate performance, but when the 3 middle movements arrived I became very disappointed.
The internal rhythms in all movements sound very right.
Cons: The 3 middle movements are the weak part of this performance. Kooy voice in the second movement is not pleasant to my ears. He does not caress the words with the depth and sensitivity of Hotter or Fischer Dieskau (I do not know if either of them has recorded this cantata, but I can imagine how they could have performed it). The Tenor movement is marred by too prominent accompaniment of the lute, which detracts more it adds something. The singing of the Chorus in the 3^rd movement is not sharp enough and the picture is muddy. We get compensated only in the last movement, which returns to the high level of the opening movement.

[14] Jeffrey Thomas & ABS (1994)
Pros: The singing of Julianne Baird and Drew Minter. The chamber quality of the performance, but….
Cons: One could think in advance that a performance of one-voice-per-part suits very well the nature of this cantata. However, this performance proves the opposite. All the internal balance is getting lost when we hear one voice where we expect an angelic Chorus as contrast to the solo voice (Bass in the 2^nd movement and Tenor in the 4th). On the other hand, a big Chorus will also be out of place here. I believe that a small Chorus, of 2 or 3 voices per part would serve better this cantata.

[15] Ton Koopman (1995)
Pros: Everything. For me this is the ultimate interpretation. Koopman is very humble, sincere and unpretentious. He does not force a personal and strange interoperation on the music, like some of his colleagues are doing. As my partner said, Koopman sounds as a very close friends of old Johann Sebastian Bach. As though he knew him personally. The vocal soloists are also great here. Mertens is doing wonders in the 2^nd movement. He has warm, sensitive, and rich voice, flexible like a Tenor. De Mey is not less good than Kraus (with Rilling) or Equiluz (with Harnoncourt) are.
Cons: Nothing.

[16] Masaaki Suzuki (1995)
Pros: Everything sounds so right in this interpretation – The tempos, the size of the Choir, the voices of the singers. Every detail is getting the right attention.
Cons: It does not move me. Where is the soul? I know from his other recordings that Suzuki has the ability to put more soul into his interpretations. Sorry, but not here.

To summarize, for me (and for my partner), Koopman’s performance of this cantata [15] is number one. I know that there are some more recordings of BWV 131, like the one by Gardiner on Erato [8] (which I do not have yet). And as always, I would like to hear other opinions, regarding the above mentioned performances, or other recordings.

Kirk McElhearn wrote (March 13, 2000):
I must say that this, one of Bach's first cantatas, is indeed one of my favourites. In many ways, it sounds very different from his other cantatas.

From the Harnoncourt version notes [9]:
Aus der Tiefen rufe ich, Herr, zu dir (BWV 131) is Bach's earliest extant cantata. The reference at the very end to the commission: “Set to music at the request of Dr. Georg Christ. Eilmars by Joh. Seb. Bach, organist at Mühlhausen” also indicates some tension there: Eilmar was the parish priest at St Mary's, Bach was organist at St Blaise. Like ‘Actus Tragicus’ (BWV 106), this cantata was written in 1707, presumably for a penitential service after a fire.

I, too, find it immensely melodic, the kind of music I like to hum. The oboe melody in the middle Chorus almost makes me want to cry. It is, IMHO, one of Bach's most moving melodies.

The second Aria is a fine example of Bach's use of a simple melody in the Basso Continuo acting as a firm structure for the voices. The melody runs on like a stream, sometimes becoming more present when the singers are not singing, other times flowing on in the background.

The structure of this cantata is quite interesting. Here are some notes I scanned:

From Boyd (Oxford Composer's Companion).
The musical subdivision of the cantata is not easy to describe (and indeed the numbering of the movements differs from one edition or analysis to another). Bach established three or four large units, some of them subdivided into discrete movements with the direction attacca connecting them to the next. The first unit may be said to consist at least of the opening Chorus and the Bass Aria with chorale. But the division between Chorus and Aria is not the only one in this unit. Bach labelled the opening orchestral passage separately as a ‘Sinfonia’; it is only in the light of later developments in church music that this could be seen as a ritornello to the Chorus that follows. The Chorus itself is divided into a slow introduction and a fast continuation (‘Herr, höre meine Stimme’) with fugal elements. So these opening ‘two’ movements could easily be described also as a unit made up of four sections. Similarly, the Chorus ‘Ich harre des Herrn’ that follows the Bass Aria is divided into a slow introduction and a fugue (‘Meine Seele harret’). The third unit begins with the Tenor Aria ‘Meine Seele wartet’ which ends with a strong cadence and a caesura as if it were an independent movement, but the layout of the score suggests that Bach intended another attacca sequence of movements. Therefore, the final Chorus (with several changes of tempo) may be understood as part of the same unit as the preceding Aria. The Chorus ends with a large-scale fugue, ‘Und er wird Israel erlosen’.

From the Harnoncourt version notes [9]:
As far as the form is concerned, there are no independent Arias, recitatives or, except for the rather old-fashioned Sinfonia, extended instrumental movements. The structure and arrangement are conditioned by the work¹s origin in the motet and sacred concerto. It is fascinating to observe, with hindsight, that the particular musical quality of this (probably) first cantata is the result of a desire for symmetry and the conflict between the ‘no longer’ of the motet and sacred concerto on the one hand, and the ‘not yet’ of the later cantatas on the other.

I have only two versions of this, Harnoncourt [9] and Herreweghe [12]. I prefer the first, probably because the tempi give it more depth and feeling.

Matthew Westphal wrote (March 14, 2000):
[10] My reaction is the opposite. Brownless is my least favourite thing about that performance (followed by Rickards, who that point in his career was vocally much better suited to Josquin than to Bach). What I really liked were Ann Monoyios and the oboe playing of Stephen Hammer (along with Jan Opalach in the Bass Aria with Chorale).

I think one-singer-per-part works particularly well in this cantata given the lack of movement breaks. (But then it's no secret that I like it generally.)
De gustibus non est disputandum.

[14] I agree about Julianne and Drew and about the chamber quality of the performance. As is so often the case, I find Thomas to be a very sensitive conductor -- I find this performance much more satisfying than Rifkin's.

I never found myself expecting an angelic choir on the Chorale melody in the Bass and Tenor Arias. (But then Rifkin's was the first performance of the cantata I heard, so I had no other associations with it.) However, any solo singer doing the cantata melody certainly needs a good legato and long breath.

[15] [16] Very interesting. On which volumes of the Koopman and Suzuki sets could I find BWV 131?

Thanks, Aryeh, for a marvellously thorough and articulate overview.

Aryeh Oron wrote (March 15, 2000):
(To Matthew Westphal)
[15] Koopman’s BWV 131 is on the second CD of his Vol.1.
[16] Suzuki’s BWV 131 is on his Vol.2

Thanks, Matthew, for your kind words. I recommend to you and to the other fans of modern and/or one-voice-per-part performances to open your ears also to more traditional recordings. They enlighten the cantatas from other and often unexpected angles.

Ehud Shiloni wrote (March 15, 2000):
[10] Rifkin's is my personal favourite for BWV 131. A particular magic moment occurs in the first Chorus when the tempo switches from slow [grave?] to quick with "Herr, höre meine stimme". Bach highlighted the transition from near total despair into the immense feeling of confidence in God's help, immediately upon the cry for this help. Rifkin's "quartet" breaks into the quick tempo with the near-ecstasy of "spiritual" singing in a Southern church...} Works for me! [though I can see why not for all others...] I also find Ann Monoyios singing to be outstanding. We must wait for Andrew Parrott to record BWV 131....

[16] I was fortunate enough to attend a live concert in Israel last year, where Suzuki/BCJ performed BWV 131, and I found the live performance more convincing than the one on the CD.

[13] I have another performance worth mentioning: Ricercar Consort with one-voice-per-part singers. The CD is called "Deutsche Barock Musik" and includes eight other baroque pieces by various composers. The performance is not bad, similar to Thomas/ABS [14].

Matthew Westphal wrote (March 15, 2000):
Parrott would definitely use only one singer per part (as in his BWV 4).

Alon Wasserman wrote (March 15, 2000):
[16] Hi Ehud, I also attended this wonderful performance. If I remember correctly (do I?), the Chorale accompaniment to the Arias was given by a group of singers, unlike what they do in the recording.

Ryan Michero wrote (March 15, 2000):
Here are some impressions of my own on this cantata:

[9] This is a successful performance overall, but I agree with Aryeh that some parts like the beginning of the last movement, sound strange and mannered. Harnoncourt's treatment has an austere gravitas to it that I think works with this cantata, and his orchestra sounds lovely and rich as usual.

[12] [15] [16] These three recordings are very similar, I think. All of them are HIP, all use a chamber choir, and the conductors have a similar interpretative approach. Tempi and phrasing vary slightly, but there seem to be more similarities than differences. I mean, every single one has Marcel Ponseele on oboe, and both Herreweghe and Suzuki use Kooy for the Bass! What it boils down to, then, is a competition between small interpretative details, like which Tenor sounds better, which conductor has the most persuasive pacing, and even which continuo group I prefer. Everyone's preferences will probably be different here, but Suzuki wins out for me for his dramatic pacing, the emotional singing of the choir, and the grace and beauty of Gerd Türk, who copes with the high tessitura of his part better than Guy de Mey and Howard Crook. Koopman is not far behind Suzuki for me though: I rather like his use of one instrument on a part (why not one singer on a part, Koopman? Mertens sounds great, and Koopman adds some subtle and effective embellishment in the organ Continuo. Herreweghe's is also fine, with Ponseele perhaps sounding the best here and an exceptionally clear choir, though the lute in the continuo is too prominent (as Aryeh noted) and his pacing seems to falter in the last movement.

[10] I just bought Rifkin's version a couple of hours ago so I could compare it to the others. From the first bar I could tell that this one is very much "sui generis" in my collection of BWV 131 recordings, sounding completely different from everyone else's. I'm honestly a little shocked--is this really how this cantata should sound? I wouldn't want to give up my Suzuki recording, but I do like Rifkin as a radically different alternative. I think the one-to-a-part approach works here, bringing a more "early" sound to this most early of Bach cantatas. The sound of the Rifkin performance is really delectable, each instrument and voice crystal clear, every nuance easily audible. Like Matthew, I'm not too fond of Brownless, but I really like Opalach and Monoyios and the overall sound of the ensemble. Rifkin's tempi are generally faster and more dance-like than the other interpreters are, but I think this works well with the music. Overall, Rifkin's is a breath of fresh air and is quite thought provoking. I will definitely return to it.

[14] This is one the one American Bach Soloists disc I don't have! Too bad--I would love to compare it with Rifkin. And Matthew thinks it is more satisfying than Rifkin's? I will get it and keep you all posted, but I probably can't get it in enough time to be on topic--sorry!

Koopman on TV

Kirk McElhearn wrote (April 9, 2000):
[17] For the past two Sundays, the French satellite music channel has been playing Ton Koopman videos at 9 AM. Each film is one hour long, and presents some biographical info about Bach, and then Koopman and his band play a cantata. The first was BWV 106, and today was BWV 131. The films are not very interesting except for the cantata performances. The biographical stuff is pretty hokey, with characters in powdered wigs and horse-drawn carriages, and unfortunately Koopman does not talk much about the cantatas that he plays. In addition, the film is peppered with bits and pieces of Bach's music, all very short and out of context.

The cantata performances, however, make it worthwhile. They are interesting, and provide a nice way to learn more about the works, through watching performers play.

These films were made for Dutch TV in 1997, and apparently there are 4 of them. I don't know if they are available on video, and Cor Knops, Koopman's webmaster, had not ever heard of them when I queried him...

Sybrand Bakker wrote (April 9, 2000):
[17] Videos have been recently broadcasted by NCRV so it is a bit strange Mr. Knops doesn't know about them. AFAIK, there are 6 of them, with one very funny performance of the Kaffee Kantate, with Klaus Mertens as Herr Schlendrian and Anne Grimm as Liesgen. Perfect casting, performance in costumes, in an 18^th century coffee-house. You may want to get in touch withe NCRV (www.ncrv.nl), though I don't know whether they sell them.

My first Bach recording

Patrik Enander wrote (May 14, 2000):
(My first Bach recording) The Goldberg variations with Schiff and then cantata BWV 131 with Herreweghe [12] and I was hooked.

Tiefen or Tiefe

Ger Kaland wrote (August 26, 2000):
The title of this cantata is "Aus der Tiefen rufe ich, Herr, zu dir". In the first part the choir sings however "Aus der Tiefe…" so Tiefe without a 'n'. Can anyone (German people) explain this difference?

John Hartford wrote (August 26, 2000):
[To Ger Kaland] I am not fluent in German but I believe it is often the case, for poetic reasons, to drop certain letters. As an example, in cantata BWV 156 "Ich Steh mit einem Fuss im Grabe" the e is dropped from stehe. I am ready to stand corrected on this though.

Chris M. wrote (August 26, 2000):
[To Ger Kaland] The (modern German) grammatically correct from is "aus der tiefe", however, "aus der tiefen" sounds strange. Are you sure it is correct? It might be an old form of the word, today it would sound colloquial. As you might know we have many different forms for one single word in German. Translated it would mean something like "(up) from the depth (where I am) I pray to you or I call you (literally)". The word itself is "die tiefe". Bach's German, however, is quite different from our language as it is spoken today.

BWV 131

Ger Kaland wrote (February 3, 2001):
Part 4 (Meine Seele wartet) of cantata BWV 131 (Aus der Tiefen rufe ich, Herr, zu dir) is notated with two flats. So it should be written in B-flat-major or g-minor. But is notated in c-minor. So the first question is: Is that because of a relation with the dorian mode? My second question is: Where can i find that dorian melody in this aria?

Christophe Chazot wrote (February 3, 2001):
(To Ger Kaland) The melody comes from the chorale "Herr Jesu Christ, du höchstes Gut" composed by Bartholomäus Ringwaldt and published in 1588. I do not know if it is in Dorian mode and if you can find it in a book. Sorry.

Sybrand Bakker wrote (February 4, 2001):
As to the chorale "Herr Jesu Christ, du höchstes Gut"

This is hymn 167 in the EKG (the Lutheran Hymnal) The melody is an unequivocal 2^nd mode (Hypodorian) on g, and it doesn't use the sixth (e) at all.

Please note at that time it was still very customary to write down minor with one flat less, as the sixth in the scale frequently was raised (so e instead of es, a instead of as) You could say there is still no definite difference between the dorian mode and minor, and whether minor is the modern equivalent of aeolian is even more questionable. Personally I believe minor is the successor of dorian.

Dashon Burton wrote (February 6, 2001):
[To Ger Kaland] After looking at it, I would imagine that it is a transposition of the dorian mode. This is done a lot with g minor and one flat.

Rilling’s BWV 131

Uri Golomb wrote (January 5, 2004):
[7] I am in the process of finishing a discography for my dissertation. I want to list the year in which Rilling recorded Cantata BWV 131. For the most part, such details are available on the CD; but not this time; and for once, Aryeh's usually comprehensive website makes no definite mention of a recording date. (He cites 1988 as a possible year, based on the publication year of the CD; however, as far as I know, Rilling completed his cycle in 1984, and 1988 is only the year of the CD issue).

If anyone can tell me when this cantata was recorded -- just the year will do --- I'd be most grateful. To repeat: the information I need is on BWV 131, with Adalbert Kraus and Wolfgang Schöne. I suspect that the information is listed on the Edition Bachakademie 2000 issue (vol. 25); that edition usually lists all recording dates. Also, was cantata BWV 70 recorded entirely in 1970? Some details make me suspect that it was recorded in separate sessions -- possibly years apart (this happens sometimes in Rilling's recordings).

Neil Halliday wrote (January 5, 2004):
[7] [To Uri Golomb] Uri, you are correct: the booklet with the Hänssler edition lists Rilling's BWV 131 as being performed on January 1975.

(It's a beautiful performance; from memory the choir sounds a bit like Herreweghe.)

Parts of BWV 70 are listed, as you suspected, as being performed on separate occasions: 1970 (no month given); excluding movements 5 and 8 (February), movement 6 (October), and movement 4 (December), all in 1982. (Probably the 1970 recording of these particular movements were judged to be unsatisfactory for inclusion in the complete edition).

Uri Golomb wrote (January 5, 2004):
[7] [To Neil Halliday] Thanks so much for the information. I have ambivalent feelings about Rilling's cycle overall, but BWV 131 is one of his finest performances, quite flexible and very moving (in both senses).

I see that the 1982 movements in BWV 70 are all solo numbers -- recitatives and arias for soprano (Arleen Auger) and tenor (Lutz-Michael Harder). Presumably, Rilling and/or his producers were more satisfied with the efforts of choir, alto (Verena Gohl) and bass (Siegmund Nimsgern),so they kept their older contributions. I wonder who the original soprano and tenor were...

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Cantata BWV 131: Complete Recordings | Recordings of Individual Movementss | Discussions: Part 1 | Part 2

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