Cantata BWV 109
Ich glaube, lieber Herr, hilf meinem Unglauben!
Discussions - Part 1
Discussions in the Week of November 12, 2000
Aryeh Oron wrote (November 12, 2000):
Background
This is the week of cantata BWV 109 according to Ryan Michero's suggestion. I shall concentrate this time only in the opening chorus, for reasons that will be explained below.
Personal Viewpoint
I remember a day about 20 years ago coming home from a regular visit in a record shop after work. A big batch of Bach cantatas conducted by Rilling arrived to the shop. Most of them were unfamiliar to me and I finished by buying almost 20 LP's of them. They were printed in that period by Claus Verlag label and were all white, except a coloured contour. I do not know why, but when I came home, I put on the turntable cantata BWV 109. From the first notes I was captivated. I was singing to myself the opening chorus all day long almost every day in the next couple of weeks. I did not understand why everybody else was not doing the same. From that day on, this cantata has remained one of my favourites. When I did my homework for this week review, I was astonished to discover that only two more recordings were done besides Rilling's. This cantata deserves much wider recognition. But are not them all deserving the same?
The Opening Chorus - What the experts say
Alec Robertson in his book 'The Church Cantatas of J.S. Bach' (1972):
"The text comes from St. Mark 9 (24), which concerns the healing of the epileptic boy whose father cried out the words quoted in answer to Jesus' saying, 'All things are possible to him that believeth'. It may be that the librettist chose this text and not that of the boy with the fever described in the Gospel for the day (John 4: 46-54) - The nobleman's son healed), whose father had no doubts, so as to link the hesitant man with St Paul's great passage from the Epistle for the day (Ephesians 6: 10-17) - Put on the armour of God) beginning 'Finally be strong in the Lord and put on the strength of His might' so as to resist the principalities and powers.
The antithesis draws from Bach striking opening movement. The main motif in the orchestral part is a group of four notes, rarely absent from the score, but never used in the vocal parts.
When the ritornello ends the soprano bursts out with the first words of the text in a fine declamatory phrase. In the course of the movement, solo alto, bass and tenor all have similar entries. 'Unbelief is set to extended phrases six times, 'believe' not even to one, which shows where Bach wishes to put the emphasis."
Ludwig Finscher in the linear notes to Harnoncourt's recording on Teldec (1980) [2]:
"The opening chorus highlights the antithesis of belief and unbelief by its strikingly differentiated writing, which tosses the vocal and instrumental motifs backwards and forwards, thereby profoundly symbolising the interrelation of belief and unbelief."
W. Murray Young in his book 'The Cantatas of J.S. Bach - An Analytical Guide' (1989):
"Only one line, from Mark 9 (24), is used as text in this number. Even with only this last part of the Biblical verse, Bach builds a monumental chorus, which, together with the final chorale, can be considered as the best movements of the cantata. The entries of the various vocal sections produce a mystic atmosphere in their group prayer for help in their unbelief".
Simon Crouch in his Web pages 'A Listener's Guide to the Cantatas of J. S. Bach' (1996, 1998):
"The outer movements of BWV 109 provide the main interest. The opening movement is a solemn and mighty chorus with an orchestral introduction that will tug at your heart strings and the final movement is an extended chorale setting, again with a fine orchestral accompaniment…"
Review of complete Recordings
(1) Helmuth Rilling (1971 (Mvts. ) + 1981 (Mvts. 4-6)
The magnificence of the opening chorus is best expressed in this rendering. The instrumental introduction is grabbing you in, and then the sopranos enter with enthusiastic singing, followed by the other voices. They are competing with each other in their wanting to be heard by Jesus. I recommend everybody to hear this ebullient rendering. If you have not known this cantata before, I am sure that you will be captivated, like I did.
(2) Nikolaus Harnoncourt (1980)
The fragmented approach of Harnoncourt, has never disturbed me more than in his rendering of the opening chorus. It kills everything. There is no flow and no enthusiasm. He is working against the direction of the music and the message of the text. Has he not read the linear notes to his recording? I do not believe that anyone, who has heard only this recording, would learn to appreciate this cantata.
(3) Ton Koopman (1998)
I find that Koopman gentle and transparent approach is not wholly suitable to the opening chorus. The playing of the instruments and the singing of the various voices of the choir are pleasant, but it does not take you with it. Indeed, it is flowing lightly ahead, but the power in the cries of the people for help is missing.
Conclusion
(1) Rilling - The best - go for it!
(3) Koopman- middle of the road
(2) Harnoncourt - avoid
This morning, before going to work, I put again Rilling's recording (1) in the CD player. What a wonderful way to start a new week! (In Israel Sunday is the first working day of the week). I have also noticed the delicacy and the consolation with which Equiluz is singing the recitative that follows the opening chorus. All the other movements of this cantata are fascinating and highly inspired. I do not agree with the claim that the pick of BWV 109 comes at the beginning and that everything which comes afterwards is on lower level. But I shall leave the analysis of the other movements of this cantata to other members of the group, or maybe I shall simply keep the option to write about them at a latter date.
And as always, I would like to hear other opinions, regarding the above mentioned performances, or other recordings.
Marie Jensen wrote (November 12, 2000):
Imagine you stood in front of a wall with a lot of buttons, one for each composer, and if you pushed one of them, a typical sound concentrate would flow out and fill the room. The long orchestral opening of cantata BWV 109 would be great for that because can anything be more Bachish? Calm beautiful patterns are drawn to make a golden, shining field of faith in the darkness. A circular statement goes on and on. Oboes and strings are playing, a horn which hardly can be heard. And around the circle the four voices invoice "Ich glaube!". The steady Bach machine goes on spinning, and from time to time they step one step backwards into the darkness to shout with fear "Hilf mein Unglauben". So it goes on and on for a long time. The persons move in and out of the circle. With small but effective means their fear and doubt is heard, while the orchestral circle remains as a safe ground in the middle.
I like the way the psychological drama of doubt and fear is woven into this cantata, not only in the opening but also in the first aria "Wie zweifelhaftig ist mein Hoffen". It is haunted by fear, Novemberish: darkness, cold rain, wind and no shelter. The strings tormented dotted notes and icy disharmonies surround the singers' awful situation.
But as always when Bach goes deep into darkness, he finds Jesus again, and a gay dance is heard: the alto aria: "Der Heiland kennet ja die Seinen". Only in the b-piece the old conflict "Geist und Fleisch" is lurking.
The soul of course finds rest, but also in the final chorale on the tune " Durch Adams Fall" the drama is still heard along with the joy.
Koopman's version (3) is the only CD version I have. I especially like the use of OVPP in the ope.
The first dramatic tenor aria is the most interesting for me. I taped a concert version where Peter Schreier conducts the Anton Webern Choir and an orchestra from Dresden (4). The tenor aria is sung by Christoph Genz. Sorry I did not get the exact details.
This is one of the few places where there is no comfort left at all in Bach's music. Koopman and tenor Dürmüller seems to run too fast through this universe of fear and pain without taking a real close look at it. Dürmüller hardly reaches to sing the final words of a phrase, before Koopman starts the next. Schreier makes the string parts stand with high voltage between them, and Genz seems so tormented, that I feel the pain in my own body. The dotted notes fall like whip lashes (Might be compared with the alto recitativo from St. Matthew Passion "Erbarm es Gott!"). This is not a dusty museum interpretation, but an expression of pain, which could come from our time. The rest of Schreier's is not very interesting.
J. Rowland (Welsh) Staff wrote (November 13, 2000):
J.E. Gardiner is in synch with the list. BBC 3 is broadcasting a concert featuring BWV 109, BWV 38, BWV 98, BWV 188 on Thursday, Nov. 16 at 7:30 GMT. BBC radio 3 can be received off the net (traffic allowing). Go to www.bbc.co.uk
Andrew Oliver wrote (November 15, 2000):
This cantata was unknown to me until a few days ago. I am sorry to have to disagree with Aryeh about this, but, despite having only the recording by Harnoncourt (from Teldec) (2), I was hooked by it in the first few seconds. Aryeh says Harnoncourt's interpretation is fragmented, and I suppose it is, but I think that, in this cantata at least, it may be done deliberately. To quote an extract from an article by Stephen A Crist in Oxford Composer Companions - J. S. Bach: 'Musical contrasts, emblematic of the polarity between belief and unbelief, are woven into the texture of the entire cantata. In the opening chorus they are manifested in the frequent juxtaposition of smaller and larger groups of instruments in the manner of a concerto grosso. This is already heard in the first bar, where the opening gesture, played in unison by first oboe and first violin, is answered by the entire ensemble (horn, two oboes, strings and continuo). Similar contrasts are indicated by the markings 'solo' and 'tutti' in the first violin part, as well as by the dynamic indications piano and forte. Opposition between a portion of the group and the entire ensemble is also seen in the choral writing, which thins to a single part much more frequently than usual...'. (I can thoroughly recommend this book to list members, as it includes an article about each cantata. It is edited by Malcolm Boyd.) The whole cantata is powerfully dramatic, most of all in the tenor aria. In the recording I have, this is sung by Kurt Equiluz. I cannot do better than quote again from the same article: '...the agitated mood associated with the Christian's intense doubt and the trembling of his terrified heart is graphically depicted by jagged melodic contours and dotted rhythms... The unusually adventurous harmonic structure of the B section embodies the polarity between belief and unbelief...'. Equiluz interprets this superbly. This aria is light-years away from being 'wallpaper' music. The more you concentrate on it, the more you will find in it.
The last comment also applies to the alto aria. Whereas the tenor aria portrayed unbelief and doubt, this one illustrates belief and trust. It beautifully interprets the verse on which the words are based. (2 Timothy 2:19) I have said nothing about the two recitatives, but they are also packed with interest. As for the closing chorale, this is no simple hymn tune but a great statement of Bach's own faith, the words being drawn mainly from 1 Peter 2:6,7. The overall impression this cantata leaves me with is that Bach himself thought of it as of great importance, because he seems to have poured his whole intellect and soul into it, taking especial care over the smallest details.
Note that both the gospel for the day, John 4: 47-54, and the passage from which the title and words of the opening chorus are drawn (Mark 9:24) are concerned with healing. Think of that, and think of Marie.
Jane Newble wrote (November 18, 2000):
As I have been in Holland most of the week, I have not had much time to listen.
I have two versions of this cantata: Koopman (3), and Leusink [6].
[6] First I listened to Leusink. The instruments as usual are beautiful, and sound really 'antique', but I was not too happy with the singing and the interpretation.
(3) Then I listened to Koopman, and what struck me straight away was the 'alternate' singing in the first chorus. Much more drama and contrast. The certainty of belief against the cry of assailing unbelief. Nobody but Bach could have written those first bars. And I really feel that Koopman is bringing out the desperate feeling of being torn apart by doubts and unbelief, and the two dimensions or levels in the opening words of this cantata.
Just now I listened again to the opening chorus in the two versions, and the difference is very striking. Perhaps the contrast is accentuated because Koopman uses a single soprano against male voices. It is very beautiful and impressive.
Harry J. Steinman wrote (November 19, 2000):
Sorry I'm a bit late with this but...
My own reaction to the cantata is based only on the Koopman recording (3) (it's the only version I have) and what I found is that I enjoyed the choral movments and I'm not wild about the tenor or alto aria. The opening movement I like: There's an urgency to the singing that matches the text and the voices and instrumentation is nicely balanced. I enjoy the final chorus and especially the interplay of oboes and strings and voices. What I don't like about the arias is that the voices sound 'pinched' or 'tight' to my uneducated ears and the voice and instruments don't sound as balanced as I would like. Ah well, each to his own!
And now on to this week's cantata!
Discussions in the Week of November 13, 2005
Thomas Braatz wrote (November 13, 2005):
BWV 109 - Intro to Weekly Discussion
Identification:
The cantata which has been selected, based upon the chronological sequence of Bach's performances, for this week's discussion is BWV 109 "Ich glaube, lieber Herr, hilf meinem Unglauben" which had its first performance in Leipzig on October 17, 1723.
Provenance:
This cantata has a very good transmission with both autograph score and original parts extant and in good to very good condition.
The autograph score went through the most common channel from J. S. Bach's estate to CPE Bach and from the latter's estate to the Berlin Singakademie [Zelter] and in 1854 to the BB [(Staats) Bibliothek Berlin.
Just where the original parts went after Bach's death is not clear. The first record of them is in a catalog of the Poelchau Collection of Manuscripts from the year 1832. In 1841 it also went to the BB where both the autograph score and the original parts are stored today.
Description of the Score and Original Parts:
At the top of the score Bach wrote:
J. J. Doica 21. post Trinitatis. Concerto
The marking at the end of the final page was simply:
Fine
The only other designations are "Recit." above Mvt. 2 and "Chorale" to introduce the final chorale.
The score is quite clean, particularly for a composing score and the paper is in very good condition.
The original parts were copied primarily by Johann Andreas Kuhnau, the exceptions being: Corne du Chasse by J. S. Bach; Violino 1 by Christian Gottlieb Gerlach; Violino 2do by Anonymus Ik; Continuo (not transposed, no figures) Unknown; CONTINUO (transposed, figured by J. S. Bach) Christian Gottlob Meiß; There is an additional "Continuo pro Cembalo" part; this makes a total of three continuo parts: 1) not transposed, no figured bass; 2) transposed, figures by Bach; 3) not transposed, figures by Kuhnau and another unknown individual.
The Corne du Chasse part was added later by Bach. It does not exist in the autograph score. It is not possible to tell when Bach added this part. For many years it was thought that Bach added it for a later performance, but from a careful examination of watermarks and handwriting, it is not at all clear how much time transpired between the completion of the score and Bach's writing out of the part on the back of another part (discarded part?) It might have been a quick last minute decision just before the 1st performance.
Cantata Text:
The librettist is unknown. A passage from Mark 9:24 is selected for the 1st mvt. In the rest of the cantata text, the librettist makes use of a number of allusions to biblical texts:
Mvt. 2 "Des Herren Hand ist ja noch nicht verkürzt, mir kann geholfen werden" is an allusion to 4. Buch Moses 11:23 "ist denn die Hand des Herrn verkürzt?" and Isaiah 59:1 "des Herrn Hand ist nicht zu kurz, daß er nicht helfen könne" Other allusions in the same mvt. are Jeremiah 31:20: "sein Vaterherze bricht" Isaiah 38:17 "es bleibt mir um Trost sehr bange" Psalm 6:4 "Ach Herr, wie lange?' Mvt. 3: "des Glaubens Docht glimmt kaum hervor, es bricht dies fast zustoßne Rohr Isaiah 42:3 "Das zerstoßne Rohr wird er nicht zerbrechen, und den glimmenden docht wird er nicht auslöshcen." Mvt. 5: "Der Heiland kennet ja die Seinen: John 10:14; 27 [See Dürr's commentary below for a more detailed explanation.]
7th verse of "Durch Adams Fall ist ganz verderbt" by the poet, Lazarus Spengler, 1524
Liturgical Readings for the 21st Sunday after Trinity:
For a better understanding of the background for the chosen text, you may consult the side-by-side readings (German original and English translation) from the Epistle and Gospel as prepared by Francis Browne at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Read/Trinity21.htm
At the top of this page you will see listed, in addition to this one, three later cantatas which Bach set for this particular Sunday of the liturgical year.
Find out about the author of the chorale text used in the last mvt. at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Spengler.htm
The text of the entire chorale with its English translation is still to be completed at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale045-Eng3.htm
Find about the chorale melody's possible earliest origin as a battle-victory drinking song along with all other aspects of this chorale melody (Bach's use of it elsewhere in his oeuvre but also its use by other composers) at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Durch-Adams-Fall.htm
Scoring:
Scoring for each mvt. can be easily determined by clicking on the links on the main recordings page for the scoring of each mvt., for instance, for the final mvt. at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/INS/BWV109-06.htm
where you will find further links to other aspects of this mvt.
Libretto and Translations:
For those needing the entire original libretto and/or a translation of it into various languages, the following links will be of service:
Original German Text (prepared by Walter F. Bischof) at: http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~wfb/cantatas/109.html
English Translation (prepared by Z. Philip Ambrose) at: http://www.uvm.edu/~classics/faculty/bach/BWV109.html
French Translation (note-to-note format prepared by Jean-Pierre Grivois) at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/BWV109-Fre4.htm
Hebrew Translation (prepared by Aryeh Oron) at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/BWV109-Heb1.htm
Indonesian Translation (word-for-word format prepared by Rianto Pardede) at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/BWV109-Ind.htm
Spanish Translation (prepared by Francisco López Hernández) at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/BWV109-Spa3.htm
Cantata Commentaries:
In his discussion of this cantata from Nov. 12, 2000, Aryeh, after expressing his enthusiasm for this particular cantata, also included excerpts from commentaries by W. Murray Young, Alec Robertson, Ludwig Finscher and Simon Crouch.
In addition to these the BCW gives links to the following shorter commentaries:
Simon Crouch: http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/bachjs/cantatas/109.html
James Leonard (AMG): http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=42:100530~T1
Julio Sánchez Reyes (in Spanish): http://www.cantatasdebach.com/109.html
Here are two commentaries also worth reading: [Stephen A. Crist, Alfred Dürr]
See: Cantata BWV 109 - Commentary
Available Score:
A vocal & piano score of the entire cantata is available for download in PDF format at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Scores/BWV109-V&P.pdf
The Recordings:
Recordings by Harnoncourt [2] and Leusink [6] available for listening at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Mus/BWV109-Mus.htm
Chronological List of Complete Cantata Recordings:
Rilling (1971,1981) [1]; Harnoncourt (1980) [2]; Koopman (1998) [3]; Suzuki (2000) [5]; Leusink (2000) [6];
Previous discussions on the merits of available recordings can be found at the bottom of the same page, [http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV109-D.htm] but before reading them, I would suggest first listening to whichever recording(s) you may have access to. With this approach you will not be unduly influenced to form a preconception regarding the quality of the various recordings. You are cordially invited to share your views and comments on the recordings and the music itself.
Peter Smaill wrote (November 13, 2005):
Thomas Braatz' very comprehensive analysis of this Cantata contrasts with a relative paucity of prior commentary in the 2000 discussions, and at that time only a few performances were available. Whereas Harnoncourt in BWV 48 produces one of his best efforts, we have a much less attractive rendering for BWV 109, "Ich Glaube, lieber Herr, hilf mein Unglauben!". Personally I find the Koopman recording [3] very attractive, with the adaptation of Scheide's suggestion that the opening chorus should be given OVPP treatment, allowing for beautiful vocal interplays with the poignant canonic writing for oboes.
The real germ of the Cantata is the duality of faith and unbelief. The opening phrase of the tenor aria has the key word , "zweifelhaftig", translated as "doubting" "irresolute" "uncertain" , but the root is in "zwei" , -"in two minds " is buried deep in my dictionary's renderings for "zwiefelhaftig".
Theologically the work has attracted interest accordingly. Jaroslav Pelikan says of it :
"Bach's simple-minded champions and his detractors have both sometimes maintained that, even in the face of the rationalistic critique of the biblical message by the Aufklarung (Enlightenment), his was a placid and unruffled faith. Repeatedly in his works, both in the texts and the music we can hear echos of the Credo that has, ever since the rationalism of the Aufklarung, been the way moderns have confessed their faith, employing the words of the father of the demoniac child in the Gospel of Mark (9:24), who, we are told, "cried out [with tears] and said, 'I believe; help my unbelief!'"
That very text is the theme of the Cantata BWV 109, "Ich glaube, liebe Herr,hilf mein Unglauben!". And in the cantata BWV 78, "Jesu, der du mein Seele!", whose opening chorus is a reminder of the Crucifixus in the Mass in B minor (BWV 232)......- the closing Chorale prays:
"Herr! Ich glaube, hilf mir Schwachen,
Lasz mich ja verzagen nicht;
Du, du kannst mich staerker machen,
Wenn mich suend' und Tod nficht"
{Lord, I trust Thee, help my weakness,
Let me, yea, know not despair.
Thou, thou canst my strength make firmer
When by sin and death I'm vexed}.
BWV 109's incipit commences with "Ich" , as do fifteen of the Cantatas. "Herr" (8), "Jesus"(4), and even "Gott"(5) are far behind , a sign of the frequent emphasis on the position of the individual believer in the scheme of redemption. This Cantata is thus at the pinnacle of those exploring the duality of faith and doubt, and is a beautiful and moving reaction to the story the father of the epilectic child. As such it is a fine example of the Lutheran stress on the need for personal discovery of religion and of Bach's vivid understanding of the tensions in the authentic Christian experience of doubt and longing for faith.
Thomas Braatz wrote (November 14, 2005):
BWV 109/1 The Instrumental Motif
Aryeh Oron has informed me that he has inserted the missing musical illustration into Dürr's commentary. It can now be viewed on the Commentaries Page at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Guide/BWV109-Guide.htm
Aryeh has also prepared a page on the BCW for an examination of the instrumental motif which Dürr pointed out above. List members are invited to share the comments and reactions to this motif analysis. It can be found at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Scores/BWV109-Sco.htm
Thomas Braatz wrote (November 14, 2005):
Peter Smaill wrote:
>>BWV 109's incipit commences with "Ich" , as do fifteen of the Cantatas. "Herr" (8), "Jesus"(4), and even "Gott"(5) are far behind , a sign of the frequent emphasis on the position of the individual believer in the scheme of redemption.<<
Using Bischof's search facility which includes all of Bach's texts, I selected only the cantatas and quickly came up with the following:
1089 instances of 'ich' ('I') (have not checked for 'mich' or 'mir' which should add to this total
1394 instances of the forms of "Gott" ['God'] This does not include 'Herr' which may be used alone without 'Gott' or 'Jesus Christ' and could refer to either. This could be a sizable humber but probably a number somewhere between the instances for 'Christ' and those of 'Gott.'
135 instances of the forms of "Christ" (Christus, Christo, Christum, etc.) but not 'Christ' or 'Christen' meaning 'Christian.' (Originally this number was 212, but it was reduced to remove the references to 'Christian(s.)' This number seems amazingly low.)
71 forms of "Geist" referring to "Holy Spirit/Ghost" but not to the individual, eternal spirit of Man.
Very rough calculation:
Circa 1600 textual references to the members of the Trinity vs. 1089 to the individual in the texts to all of Bach's cantatas.
I wonder how this would compare with the chorale texts and sacred figural music texts from the 16th century. My guess would be that the 'I' would be more frequently found as a 'we' representing the individual merged with the congregation and thinking and feeling more with the group rather than as a separate individual. This is, however, mere speculation (a feeling) on my part at this point without having done any rudimentary statistical check of such materials.
What do other list members think about this?
Bradley Lehman wrote (November 15, 2005):
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Scores/BWV109-Sco.htm
"There is a great likelihood that some symbolic, text interpretative significance can to attached to at least some of these. List members are invited to speculate on what these symbolic connections might be."
OK. I speculate that Bach, as an excellent composer of music, was mostly doing the things that excellent composers do: providing general variety (and ornamentation) to the melodic/harmonic texture, and providing modulations and other normal musical events. It would be really surprising and remarkable if he didn't provide such variety, if all those thematic entrances within a rich orchestration and a long movement had to be the same as one another. Especially so, as he had to fashion multiple minutes of music here out of only seven words of sung text.
This is basic compositional technique, altering some of the intervals within a basically recognizable subject on some of its appearances. Try analyzing Bach's instrumental fugues, to see if he does the same thing there. (Hint: Contrapunctus 4 is a good example.)
Where does "great likelihood" of "symbolic significance" come from, other than wishful thinking that items will be "found" that real musicologists haven't yet drawn attention to? As long as the first note or two fit into the preceding harmony, and the ending note fits into the next harmony, why does there have to be a theological/symbolic point to any of the choices? And, for it to have any special meaning here in BWV 109, one would have to show that Bach typically did not offer such variety elsewhere, in pieces that have nothing to do with didactic theology.
Oh, my goodness! Brandenburg 4's finale! He has the first two notes of the theme sometimes leap by fourths, fifths, octaves, minor third, or unison (no leap). He even uses some major seconds and augmented(!) fifths and minor sevenths in this theme, on the last page. Sometimes elsewhere he fills in that leap with three or four running notes. Sometimes the theme is given in major, sometimes in minor, sometimes it even leaps down by a tritone instead of up by the fourth/fifth we expect. Sometimes he shifts the theme over by half a bar so the accentuation is in the opposite direction on those first two notes. And then there's also sometimes a variety between the second and third note of the theme, having some different number of steps in between. We could make a handy chart of all these and speculate what his symbolic theological connections are, hidden all through this. Wow!
We can't we just let Bach be an excellent composer doing his job? Why force un-falsifiable symbolic speculations (i.e. probably meaningless coincidences) on top of his already apparent skill? Especially if it would compel performers to micro-manage the texture to try to bring out all this nons.....er, to try to make audible all this esoteric theology that's so subtle it's only noticed by those who would put it there.
Bach wrote BWV 109 for one known performance, and all these little distinctions of leap-sizes whiff by so quickly. And some of the quick escape-tones in that figure are non-harmonic in context. So? Why assume they're terribly meaningful or symbolic, to any allegedly "great likelihood"?
Thomas Braatz wrote (November 15, 2005):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
>>Bach wrote BWV 109 for one known performance, and all these little distinctions of leap-sizes whiff by so quickly. And some of the quick escape-tones in that figure are non-harmonic in context. So? Why assume they're terribly meaningful or symbolic, to any allegedly "great likelihood"?<<
Why then also assume that the decorative squiggles which Bach so hurriedly executed at the top of theautograph title page of WTC1 have any hidden significance whatsoever? Decorative 'c-hooks' are found on capital letters other than the 'C' of "Clavier." Why should they suddenly become extremely important in a single instance and take on special, hidden meaning?
Why do "all these little distinctions of leap-sizes whiff by so quickly?" Mainly because the HIP groups performing these movements tend to treat them as 'lite' entertainment with generally faster tempi than the non-HIP ensembles.
To deny the meaningful or symbolic aspects of Bach's music appears to short-change the genius of Bach's music. You seem to claim that you have already understood all of it to your own satisfaction. I, however, would tend 'to leave the door open' to other possibilities that a mundane musicologist would overlook.
Neil Mason wrote (November 15, 2005):
[To Bradley Lehman] I quite agree. What the music sounds like is most important.
Neil Mason wrote (November 15, 2005):
[To Thomas Braatz] You are indeed correct in your assertion that HIP ensembles use faster tempos (than performers generally did earlier in the 20th century).
But in my opinion this is a plus rather than a minus, as it brings the music to life.
Ken Edmonds wrote (November 15, 2005):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< ...which Bach so hurriedly executed at the top of the autograph title page of WTC1 >
So, you were there when Bach was writing the title page! What a revelation! Please tell us more...
Thomas Braatz wrote (November 15, 2005):
Neil Mason wrote:
>>You are indeed correct in your assertion that HIP ensembles use faster tempos (than performers generally did earlier in the 20th century). But in my opinion this is a plus rather than a minus, as it brings the music to life.<<
...at the expense of many notes which are then in unaccented positions barely or completely inaudible to the normal listener. What happens to the first note (the base of the interval leap upwards) of the instrumental motif when it is barely heard as treated by HIP practitioners who consider it as part of a 'gesture'?! [Answer: the exaggeration of unaccented vs. accented and the dynamic range between a piano vs. forte becomes even greater.] These base notes of the interval leaps are not simply harmonic variations that Bach called upon to make the movement less boring. To be sure, in some of the instances, it is possible that Bach needed to make certain choices in the size of the leap because the harmonic progressions preceding and following it demanded a different note; however, a jump upward of a 9th, for instance, is obviously conspicuous to the reader of the part/score. It could, however, easily be overlooked (and not heard by a listener) by a conductor (particularly HIP) who considers the sizes of leaps in the main instrumental motif as insignificant for a performance of this movement since these leaps, in the mind of such a conductor, are 'simply decorative and serve no other real purpose than to provide a little variety.'
Stephen Benson wrote (November 15, 2005):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< ...at the expense of many notes which are then in unaccented positions barely or completely inaudible to the normal listener. >
This does not have to be the case. In fact, the clarity of HIP performances, even with quicker tempi, frequently reveals details lost in the thicker textures of performances by the bloated orchestras and choruses of the pre-HIP generation. It is only when faster tempi are grossly exaggerated that loss of detail occurs, and, in fact, the most egregious example I can recall in Bach came, admittedly not from an orchestra and chorus, but from Walter Gieseking, hardly an HIP-er, in his recording of the Partitas, all six of which appear on a single disc and at such a blinding speed that handfuls of notes disappear in a blur.
Thomas Braatz wrote (November 15, 2005):
Stephen Benson wrote:
>>...the most egregious example I can recall in Bach came, admittedly not from an orchestra and chorus, but from Walter Gieseking, hardly an HIP-er, in his recording of the Partitas, all six of which appear on a single disc and at such a blinding speed that
handfuls of notes disappear in a blur.<<
As a pianist who was born and grew up in France and who subsequently spent much time there, Gieseking's forte was French Impressionism (Debussy, Ravel, etc.) the techniques of which (as formidable as they are) he naturally applied to his interpretations of Bach.
Stephen Benson wrote (November 15, 2005):
[To Thomas Braatz] I do love Gieseking's Debussy. But why "naturally" extend that technique to Bach? Isn't it more natural to adapt one's technique to the music rather than force the music into the straitjacket of one's technique? I can think offhand of a number of pianists who are strong in repertoire other than Bach who make adjustments in their technique in order to bring out the felicities of Bach's contrapuntal keyboard writing: Guller, Browning, Argerich, Horszowski, Lipatti, Pires, Rosen, Kapell, and Schiff, for example.
Alain Bruguieres wrote (November 16, 2005):
[To Bradley Lehman & Thomas Braatz]
I'm happy!
I disagree with Brad on this, and at last I can prove to Thomas that I do not always take Brad's side and I have retained some capacity for independent thinking! Thank you very much, Brad, for this opportunity of saving my head!
I definitely cannot adhere to the ideas expressed by Brad here. If he were talking about Haendel, well, ok. Bach, not ok.
All right, Bach was a good composer and the music he wrote was probably perfectly adapted to what was expected of him.
(even if his employers didn't always think so...). But Bach was much more than a good composer. He was much more than a superlatively good composer. He was... well, Bach.
He could write extremely intricate pieces, obeying very strong constraints, and pack them with additional meaning [of a non-musical nature] and at the same time make them sound very simple and natural [there are many explicit and undeniable instances of this in the cantatas, as we all know here], and when hearing the music one sometimes feels that he didn't have to put on his thinking cap to do it.
The fact that the music he produced is good to hear doesn't prove that it is only good to hear. Obviously the graphic aspect of his music matters; it is a fact, not a vague romantic theory, that Bach was not solely concerned with the effect of his music on the ears of his listeners. Is the BACH theme the result of a coincidence? Consider the fourth fugue of the WTC. The four kreuz's which form a meta-kreuz in the key-signature, the kreuz-shaped theme; the fact that this fugue definitely sounds deeply relegious even to an irredeemable agnostic frenchman. Can one reasonably assume that all this never occurred to Bach when he wrote this fugue, especially considering his background? Not only was he a christian (and, which is more to the point, a christian composer); he was also a man who lived in a time when symbols and emblems were greatly valued. In the cantatas, in chorales - in about half of his works, he explicitly put more that just sounds in his music, but stuffed it with meaning. How can one reasonably assume that in his instrumental works he systematically refrained from doing what in the remainder of his works he did all the time, as naturally as if he were just breathing?
Does this mean that all the speculations about Bach's secret meaning are true? Of course, not, and it's hard to determine what Bach actually meant and what is a mere coincidence. More to the point, there is no definite test in this matter - a serious problem from a scientific point of view. Not Bach's problem, but ours... if we choose to see it as a problem; we may also choose to see it as an additional degree of freedom for creative thinking! Take the numerological aspect, for example. For a 'modern' man, this seems silly. Numbers are just digits and so what? But, if you read Marcel Granet's La Pensée Chinoise, you'll see that for other civilizations numbers mean more than Bourbaki's definition : each number has a symbolic, quasi magical value of its own. In this respect, Bach doesn't belong to our civilization; this of the notion of number to a mere computational tool is quite recent, actually. Musing about the esoteric meaning Bach may have hidden in his work is part of the pleasure I have listening to his music, or meditating about it.
Now does this mean that an interpreter should figure out all the hidden meaning and play in such a way as to bring it forth? I'm no interpreter, no musicologist, and at the time when you read this I have probably lost my head (if not, thank you Thomas!) so take what comes next for what it's worth : I don't think so. For one thing, it's impossible. But even if it were, it is not the interpreter's job. If Bach kept things hidden, he meant them to remain hidden (to the ear, I mean) so this should not interfere with interpretation, in my humble opinion. Playing a piece in a manner contrary to its musical logic in order to spotlight a supposedly meaningful detail would be underestimating Bach's ability to incorporate subliminal signals in a seamless way.
Neil Mason wrote (November 16, 2005):
[To Thomas Braatz] Ah Thomas....
You may choose to disagree, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong!!!
This is not a matter of science but of aesthetics.
Now, as it happens, I agree with you with respect to SOME recordings of, for example, Harnoncourt.
But your comment simply doesn't apply to the likes of later recordings such as those by Gardiner.
In trying to make your point you over-generalize, IMHO.
Continue on Part 2
Cantata BWV 109
: Complete Recordings | Recordings of Individual Movements | Discussions: Part 1 | Part 2
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Last update: ýFebruary 10, 2006 ý14:35:45
