Reading from the Bible

Readings from the Bible

Readings; translation; Dürr: chorale Ich hab mein Sach Gott heimgestellt

Francis Browne wrote (January 11, 2005):
Since many cantata texts comment on or quote from the readings for the day for which they were written, I have often thought it would be useful to have the readings from Luther's bible easily available on the website. With Aryeh's help I have started to provide the readings for each Sunday and feast. My intention is roughly to keep pace with the Lutheran Church Year and also to provide the readings for any cantatas that come up for the discussion: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lutheran-Read.htm

I am providing the King James English translation in parallel with the German. Where Luther and the King James version differ I shall provide notes or a more literal translation of the German or Greek. In view of the current discussion of translation perhaps I should add that I chose the King James Version because of its familiarity for many English readers, its closeness to the Greek - sometimes over literal but matching Luther's approach - - and from the feeling that it was the best equivalent in English for what Luther's bible was for Bach and the congregations that heard his music.

(I should add that in translating cantatas and chorales I have deliberately tried to avoid archaic language - my sole aim is to help those who wish to follow the music closely and need some basic help with the German text))

Dürr's book is the most useful work I have come across on the cantatas. The translation by Richard Jones will I am sure be excellent, but the price is brigandage. If I remember correctly, the German paperback costs less than one tenth of the new English translation.- it seems cheaper to learn German and with the money saved you could buy the complete Bach edition recently discussed and still have some change.

But since Dürr has been mentioned could I make a request. In his discussion of next week's cantata Dürr comments on how the text of BWV 106 corresponds strikingly to the text of the 18 strophe chorale Ich hab mein Sach Gott heimgestellt, the melody of which Bach quotes in movement 2d. I have not been able to find this text and would be very grateful if anyone can send me the text or tell me where I might find it.

Bradley Lehman wrote (January 11, 2005):
< In his discussion of next week's cantata Dürr comments on how the text of BWV 106 corresponds strikingly to the text of the 18 strophe chorale Ich hab mein Sach Gott heimgestellt, the melody of which Bach quotes in movement 2d. I have not been able to find this text and would be very grateful if anyone can send me the text or tell me where I might find it. >
The first stanza is on p445 (the discussion of BWV 707) in Peter Williams's The Organ Music of Bach, 2003 edition. Williams regularly gives at least the first stanza, sometimes more, for the organ pieces that are based on chorales. A terrific resource for organists and worship-planners.....

Douglas Cowling wrote (January 11, 2005):
Francis Browne wrote:
< In view of the current discussion of translation perhaps I should add that I chose the King James Version because of its familiarity for many English readers, its closeness to the Greek - sometimes over literal but matching Luther's approach - - and from the feeling that it was the best equivalent in English for what Luther's bible was for Bach and the congregations that heard his music. >
Are there any native German speakers on the list who can comment on the degree of archaism that modern Germans and those in Bach's time would have perceived in Luther's translation.

In English, the language of the King James Bible was more or less contemporary with early 17^th century usage although there was already a perceived "antique" quality to it. By the 18^th century, the language was perceived as old-fashioned even though archaic forms such as "thee" and "thou" were still heard in dialect. By the 20th century, there were no English speakers who spoke in the idioms of the KJ Bible and the language had achieved the status of a cultic dialect.

Is there a comparable pattern in German? My principal curiosity relates primarily to the Passions and the oratorios and whether Bach's listeners felt a dramatic stylistic shift from the narrative in Luther's Bible and the contemporary poets who wrote the verse for arias and the like.

And back to Cantata BWV 131 for a moment ... Was anyone else struck by the sheer stamina required by the first oboe who plays almost continuously throughout the work?

Thomas Shepherd wrote (January 11, 2005):
[To Francis Browne] For one I will be very pleased to see this new resource.
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lutheran-Read.htm)

Most, but not all, of the weekly readings that were used by the Lutheran church at the time of Bach are already readily available as the epistles and gospels in the Book of Common Prayer - available on the internet (eg.
http://www.eskimo.com/~lhowell/bcp1662/communion/readings.html. ) The English text of the BCP predates that of the KJB by almost a century being the translations of Tyndale and Coverdale These were modified partially in 1662 when the Elizabethan prayer book was revised and re-released as the BCP. The translations in the BCP are slightly different from the KJV but are the ones that are most readily accessible, and arguably, more widely used and read by generations in the Anglican church. I still use the BCP texts weekly at two of our several weekly celebrations of the Holy Communion and its a great spiritual bonus to know that Bach's cantata of the liturgical week usually refers to the same epistle or gospel as the one I am reading in
church.

That said - it is really kind of Francis and Aryeh to provide the parallel German/English text in an accessible way.

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (January 11, 2005):
[To Francis Browne]
Two things:

1.) Which Lutherbibel did you use?

2.) Bach also used the Calbert (?) Bible as well.

A word of suggestion:

Do not use the 1981 Lutherbibel. The reason being that it has nothing at all to do with Luther. What the people that made it did was to take the NRSV and translate it into German.

The ARTFL website is a good one for the 1534 Lutherbibel, and there are ones for the 1545 unrevised version.

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (January 11, 2005):
[To Francis Browne] Also, what source are you using for your readings, modern or contemporary (to Bach's time, that is)?

Thomas Braatz wrote (January 11, 2005):
Francis Browne wrote:
>>But since Dürr has been mentioned could I make a request. In his discussion of next week's cantata Dürr comments on how the text of BWV 106 corresponds strikingly to the text of the 18 strophe chorale Ich hab mein Sach Gott heimgestellt, the melody of which Bach quotes in movement 2d. I have not been able to find this text and would be very grateful if anyone can send me the text or tell me where I might find it.<<
It would appear that Dürr's reference to the entire text (18 verses) is represented as follows in the somewhat shortened version below:

Long version vs shortened version
Verse 2 = 2
8 = 7
10 = 9
16 = 12

1. Ich hab mein Sach Gott heimgestellt,
er machs mit mir, wie's ihm gefällt.
Soll ich allhier noch länger leben,
ohn Widerstrebn
seim Willen tu ich mich ergebn

2. Mein Zeit und Stund ist, wann Gott will;
ich schreib ihm nicht vor Maß noch Ziel.
Es sind gezählt all Härlein mein,
beid groß und klein;
fällt keines ihn den Willen sein.

3. Es ist allhier ein Jammertal,
Angst, Not und Trübsal überall;
des Bleibens ist ein kleine Zeit
voll Müh und Leid,
und wers bedenkt, ist stets im Streit.

4. Es hilft kein Reichtum, Geld noch Gut,
kein Kunst noch Gunst noch stolzer Mut;
fürn Tod kein Kraut gewachsen ist;
mein frommer Christ,
alles, was lebet, steist.

5. Heut sind wir frisch, gesund und stark
und liegen morgen tot im Sarg;
heut blühen wir wie Rosen rot,
bald krank und tot;
ist allenthalben Müh und Not.

6. Man trägt eins nach dem andern hin,
wohl aus den Augen, aus dem Sinn;
die Welt vergisset unser bald,
ob jung, ob alt
auch unsrer Ehren mannigfalt.

7. Ach Herr, lehr uns bedenken wohl,
daß wir sind sterblich allzumal,
auch wir allhier kein Bleibens han,
müssn all davon,
gelehrt, reich, jung, alt oder schön.

8. Das macht die Sünd, du treuer Gott,
dadurch ist komm'n der bittre Tod,
der nimmt und frißt all Menschenkind,
wie er sie findt,
fragt nicht, wes Stands und Ehrn sie sind.

9. Ich hab hier wenig guter Tag,
mein täglich Brot ist Müh und Klag.
Wann mein Gott will, so will ich mit
hinfahrn in Fried;
Tod ist Gewinn und schadt mir nit.

10. Und ob mich schon mein Sünd anficht,
dennoch will ich verzagen nicht;
ich weiß, daß mein getreuer Gott
für mich in' Tod
sein' liebsten Sohn gegeben hat.

11. Das ist mein Trost zu aller Zeit
in allem Kreuz und Traurigkeit.
Ich weiß, daß ich am Jüngsten Tag
ohn alle Klag
Wird auferstehn aus meinem Grab.

12. Mein' lieben Gott von Angesicht
werde ich anschaun, dran zweifl ich nicht,
in ewger Freud und Seligkeit,
die mir bereit';
ihm sei Lob, Preis in Ewigkeit.

Text by Johann Leon c. 1530-1597 who was born and died in Ohrdruf.

This author was a Thuringian and served as a pastor in Ohrdruf

The melody was originally a secular folksong documented 1500 with the original title:
"Es ist auf Erd kein schwerer Leidn"; then as a contrafact religious song/chorale "Ich weiß mir ein Röslein hübsch und fein" (which is an allegorical reference to the Gospel - not a pretty young girl as one might otherwise expect) as such it was contained in a hymnal by Johann Rau, Frankfurt am Main, 1589. Precisely when the melody became associated with Leon's text is not known, but probably this occurred at the very end of the 16^th century.

Quick translation:

heimstellen = anheimstellen = to leave (it, something) up to

1. I have left all my things (earthly concerns) up to God
Let him do whatever he wants to with me.
If I should continue to live on here still longer
I will surrender myself to his will without putting up a fight.

2. My time and hour will be when God wants them to be
I do not dictate to him how it will be measure nor
what the ultimate goal will be.
Each and every hair on my body is counted out
Not a single one, whether big or small will fall out
without His willing it to be so.

3. All around here is nothing but a valley of tears
there is fear, want and misery everywhere
Our stay here is only for a short time
And is full of trouble and suffering
Whoever begins to think about it, is continually in
conflict with himself and others.

4. Wealth, money and property
as well as artistry, the goodwill of others or pride
in one's courage will be of no use whatsoever
There is no magic potion or cure for death, dear pious Christian,
Everything that lives is mortal.

5. Today we are bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, healthy and strong
and tomorrow we may be lying dead in a coffin.
Today we blossom like red roses,
Only soon to be sick and dead,
All this is everywhere trouble and great difficulties.

6. One after another people are being taken to their graves
away from our eyes and soon no more in our memories;
The world will soon forget us
whether we are young or old
they will even forget our manifold glorious deeds.

7. O Lord, teach us to consider well
that we are always mortal,
All of us here have no steady place to stay around here,
We all have to leave,
Whether well-educated, rich, young, old, or beautiful.

8. O faithful God, all of this has come about through sin
And bitter death resulted from that,
Death takes and devours all type of human beings
Wherever he finds them,
And he does not ask what social class they belong to
nor which honors they have received.

9. Here on earth I have had only few really good days,
earning my daily bread is a lot of effort and
accompanied by many complaints.
If my God so wills it, I will promise to go in peace;
Death will be my gain and will not harm me.

10. And even if my sins already begin to worry me,
I will nevertheless not despair;
I know that my faithful God
Has given his dearest Son to accompany me on my
passage into death.

11. This is my {greatest} comfort at all times
in bearing my personal cross and sadness.
I know that, at the time of the Last Judgment
I will rise from the dead from my grave without any complaints.

12. I will then see my dear Lord face to face, that I do not doubt,
in eternal joy and blessedness that have been prepared for me;
Praise be to Him in eternity.

Francis Browne wrote (January 11, 2005):
Many thanks to those who replied to my enquiry, particularly to Thomas Braatz who supplied the text which had eluded me and Thomas Shepherd for the link to the BCP. Doug is of course right that the KJ version is not close enough to use for texts set directly by Bach, such as the text of the SMP (BWV 244). But I think it can be used for the readings - where there is a difference between Luther and KJ I shall try to indicate it in brief notes. In answer to David's question I am using the text of 1545.

For the chorale texts what I would like to use is : Philip Wackernagel, Das Deutsche Kirchenlied von der altesten Zeit bis zu anfang des XVII Jahrhunderts

The only problem is that at 780 euros it makes even Durr seem cheap,and therefore I use whatever texts I can find on the internet. I am always very grateful to those who send me better texts or corrections for my translations.

I do not wish to clog up the list with tangential topics. Bach's music is of course what matters. But I have found that knowledge of the readings and chorale texts helps me to appreciate better what Bach is doing in the music.

Doug Cowling wrote (January 11, 2005):
Francis Browne wrote:
< I do not wish to clog up the list with tangential topics. Bach's music is of course what matters. But I have found that knowledge of the readings and chorale texts helps me to appreciate better what Bach is doing in the music. >
Any resource which helps us understand the context of Bach's sacred music is worth working on. In addition to the readings, I would love to see the Latin and German texts of the Lutheran mass posted. A schema for the whole year listing introits, prayers, pulpit chorales would be invaluable when we are talking about the liturgical context, a factor which is crucial for understanding Bach's art.

John Pike wrote (January 11, 2005):
[To Doug Cowling] I learnt German at school and I picked up other words listening to Bach. My German wife was very amused the first time I used the word "Wahrlich" in conversation. This word and many other "Bachian" words are just no longer used. Even words that I was taught at school are rarely used now.

John Pike wrote (January 11, 2005):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.] I thought Bach's Bible was called "Calov" or something similar.

Peter Smaill wrote (January 11, 2005):
[To John Pike] An interesting choice of archaic German, but perhaps a significant one. The reference is perhaps to the incipit "Wahrlich, warlich ich sage euch" (beautifully set for tenor by Bach), which is equally archaic in English as "Verily, verily I say unto you".

The expression is according to NT scholars an idiolect, in other words a structure unique (in Aramaic presumably) to the way in which Jesus alone speaks, and is thus a badge of authenticity of the Gospels. My source for this is the writer A N Wilson.

Thomas Braatz wrote (January 11, 2005):
[To Peter Smaill] This type of expression is an asseveration not unique to Jesus. The Luther bible (1545) has this type of statement in the OT as well:

Joshual 7:20 "Wahrlich, ich habe mich...."

and

Jeremiah 26:15 "Denn wahrlich, der HErr hat mich zu euch gesandt, daß ich solches alles vor euren Ohren reden sollte."

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (January 12, 2005):
[To Doug Cowling] It could easilly be done, since the only movements of the Lutheran Mass is the Kyrie and Gloria.

The so-called "Deutscher Messe" is actually a coof the abovementioned lutherische Messe and the Small Cathechism of Luther. These Luther actually wrote tunes for, some of which have become popular. Everyone knows of "Vater unser im Himmelreich", but few realize that this is Luther's translation of the part of the Kleiner Kathechismus on the Pater noster set to music. The same for "Aus tiefer Not schrei' ich zu dir" (Luther's more exhorbetant treatment of Psalm 130 for Penitence), "Wir glauben all' an einem Gott" (the Credo), "Jesaja, der Prophet, da geschah'" (Luther's Sanctus), "Jesus Christus, unser Heiland, der von uns den Zorn Gottes wand" (Eucharist, Luther's translation of "Iesus Christus, nostra salis" by his predecessor in reformation Jan Hus), "Christe, du Lamm Gottes" (Luther's translation of the Agnus Dei, not as famous as the later Sebald Heyden work "O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig"), "Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kamm" (Baptism), and "Dies sind die heil'gen zehn Gebot'" (the Ten Commandments).

If you so desire, I could post both up for the website.

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (January 12, 2005):
John Pike wrote:
< I learnt German at school and I picked up other words listening to Bach. My German wife was very amused the first time I used the word "Wahrlich" in conversation. This word and many other "Bachian" words are just no longer used. Even words that I was taught at school are rarely used now. >
Actually, "wahrlich" and "furwahr" are interchangeable.

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (January 12, 2005):
John Pike wrote:
< I thought Bach's Bible was called "Calov" or something similar. >
That's what I meant. I just couldn't remember its name.

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (January 12, 2005):
[To Peter Smaill] However, it is also Hebraich, since it could also be equaled to the word that Luther translated as "furwahr", which is famously used in Isaiah 53 (one of my most favorite OT texts, since it deals with the Passion of the Christos).

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (January 12, 2005):
[To Thomas Braatz] But it could also be translated as "furwahr". Case in point: the response of the crowd in the Gospel according to Matthew to all the events after Jesus "gave up the ghost" (the earthquake, the rocks splitting, the veil of the Temple being torn in half, the graves opening, etc.): "Wahrlich, dieser ist Gottes Sohn gewesen", which in Luke's Gospel is translated as "Furwahr, dieser is ein fromme Mensch gewesen". The two are interchangeable. Another example: I don't remember where, but I have seen German translations of Isaiah 53: 4 saying "Wahrlich, er trug unser Krankheit, und lud auf sich unser Schmerzen...", whilst others (including Luther) have it as "Furwahr er trug unser Krankheit, und lud auf sich unser Schmerzen...".

John Pike wrote (January 12, 2005):
[To Peter Smaill] It also appears very famously in, for example, that miniature masterpiece No. 63b in the SMP (BWV 244) "Wahrlich, dieser ist Gottes Sohn gewesen", "Truly, this was the son of God". It was this that I had in mind when I first used the word. Translated as "truly", it doesn't sound so odd. Incidentally, we still use the word in conversation for a joke!

Doug Cowling wrote (January 12, 2005):
[To John Pike] It's still an epistoalary cliché as in,

Yours truly,

Peter Smaill wrote (January 12, 2005):
The idiolect as described by A N Wilson is, in German, the double-warlich coupled with the highly-direct, "Ich sage euch!". Single warlich is interesting but not quite so unusual. Try addressing your wife or best friend with "Truly, truly I say unto you !" and see the reaction !

As so often Bach rises, both in the eponymous Cantata and at the centurion's declamation in SMP (BWV 244), to set a word of the highest import, in this case "Warlich" and its adjoining expressions, in the most sublime fashion.

Readings for the Lutheran Church Year

Francis Browne wrote (August 5, 2005):
Some months ago I suggested it would be useful if the readings for the events for which Bach wrote his sacred cantatas were easily available. With Aryeh's help this task has been completed and readings (in German and English) for every Sunday and feast in the Lutheran church year for which Bach wrote cantatas can now be found at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lutheran-Read.htm

John Pike wrote (August 5, 2005):
[To Francis Browne] Excellent piece of work. Many thanks.

Paul Farseth wrote (August 7, 2005):
[To Francis Browne] Thank you, Francis (and Aryeh)!

Use of Gospel of John

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 15, 2007):
Chris Kern wrote:
< (The Gospel of John is used quite a bit in the upcoming cantatas and in the post-Chorale ones we've already looked at.) >
With the exception of the Three Days of Easter and Ascension Day, all of the gospel readings during the fifty days of the Easter season are from the Gospel of John. This is the pattern inherited from the pre-Reformation church and confirmed by Luther.

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 15, 2007):
[To Douglas Cowling] You have to love John, for example, 21:3. Simon Peter said to them, 'I am going fishing'. They said to him, 'We will go with you.' They went out and got into the boat, but that night they caught nothing.

Same as it ever was.

I am wondering if the readings from John, for those fifty days of Easter, include 20:2, where John refers to himself as 'the one whom Jesus loved'. This has been bothering me. I was about to let it slide, but since you brought it up....

One year lectionary [was: Scripture texts used for Cantatas]

Continue of discussion from: Texts of Bach Cantatas [General Topics]

James Atkins Pritchard wrote (March 10, 2008):
Paul T. McCain wrote:
"Bach's Cantata parallel the readings from the Bible that were appointed for each Sunday in what is called the "Church Year." That year, divided into two major parts: festival and non-festival halfs, was more, or less, set in stone in Bach's time, using what is known as the "one year lectionary" .... today, because most churches using a set "lectionary" or systems of Bible readings are using a three year series of lessons. ..."
Bruce Simonson wrote:
< Thanks for your post on this ... for some reason, I had always assumed that there were three versions of the Church year lectionary, each of which, perhaps mistakenly I called a "pericope". From your explanation, it seems I have been befuddled on this, and I thank you for the clarification. Especially interesting to hear that two more year lectionaries come from (after?) Vatican II.
If there are currently three sets of liturgical texts (three different yearly lectionaries), then, if Bach only had one, then there must be at least two sets of scriptural texts that Bach didn't take on, given his self-described cantata project. I'm really curious to find out which of the current standard lectionary passages were not treated by Bach (and, also, of course, those that he did cover). Do you have suggestions on how to procede with researching this?
Also, Aryeh's Bach-Cantata website has scads of very useful information on the Lutheran church year ... as far as you know, does it correctly associate liturgical texts with the one-year lectionary that Bach used?
Thanks again for your input! >
To the best of my knowledge the three-year lectionary is a relatively recent development, coming into being in the 1960s as a consequence of Vatican II, prior to which various versions of the historic one-year lectionary were in general use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Common_Lectionary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectionary
www.lectionarycentral.com

The "Lectionary Central" site, which is concerned with the historic annual lectionary, contains some material relating to the Bach Cantatas.

Douglas Cowling wrote (March 10, 2008):
James Atkins Pritchard wrote:
< To the best of my knowledge the three-year lectionary is a relatively recendevelopment, coming into being in the 1960s as a consequence of Vatican II, prior to which various versions of the historic one-year lectionary were in general use. >
The one-year cycle of readings was the pattern of the Catholic Church before the Reformation and was used pretty much unaltered by the Lutheran and Anglican churches until the 1970s when a three-year pattern of readings was adopted by most churches. The advantage of a three-year cycle is that the New Testament is read almost completely. In the one-year cycle of Bach's time, there are many famous passages in the Bible which were never read publically at the principal Sunday service and thus never provided texts for the cantatas.

Jean Laaninen wrote (March 10, 2008):
[To Douglas Cowling] My husband mentioned that in the original Catholic cycle there might have been the use of other scriptural books that Lutherans eliminated. Perhaps someone knows.

Peter Smaill wrote (March 10, 2008):
[To Jean Laaninen] Interesting point: how have Lutheran and Roman lectionaries evolved since Bach's time?

?A new Roman lectionary was indeed ?developed under Paul VI and it institutes as I understand a large number of "ordinary" Sundays, whereas Lutherans and Anglicans are used to numbering Sundays as "before" and "after" a major Church feast.

The new Roman calendar of 1969 reduced the number of Saints' feasts. This has tended to mean that a more coherent cycle of OT and NT readings?is encountered since the cycle is not interrupted by the consideration of readings appropriate to the saints/martys concerned : "The scripture lectionary, which has been drawn up? with the advice of professional exegetes, is much better than the old one, although it is sometimes difficult to discern the principles of selection"? (Rather like the Cantata scriptural selections!).

"The NT, apart from the Gospels which is reserved for the Eucharist, is read in its entirety in the year" (J D Crichton, in "The Study of Liturgy, ed.Jones".? So in practice Rome moved towards the saint-lite Lutheran model with its more comprehensive, but never exhaustive, ?use? of OT readings.

Paul T. McCain wrote (March 10, 2008):
[To Peter Smaill] The historic lectionary of the Western Church, as used by the Lutheran church of Bach's day, remained virtually unchanged until the 1960s, when lectionary-using Protestant churches began to use a three-year lectionary, that is, a lectionary providing different readings over a three year period, the theory being that more and different readings from the Scriptures is better than only one year's worth of readings.

It is inaccurate however to refer to the three year lectionary as "better." It is not necessarily better, just different.

As I believe Plinius said: "non multa, sed multum" not many, but much, in other words, quality, not quantity, is what really matters.

I believe there are in fact distinct pedagogical advantages to the one year lectionary.

Jean Laaninen wrote (March 10, 2008):
[To Peter Smaill] Does anyone know if readings from the Apocrapha were used in the original Roman lectionary?
And thanks Peter for adding the 'before' and 'after' element to this discussion.

Douglas Cowling wrote (March 10, 2008):
[To Jean Laaninen] It is more accurate to refer to the deutero-canonical books of the Bible rather than the apochrypha which were books which were never part of the canon of scriptures. The former were part of the accepted canon of the Bible until the Reformation when Luther and many of the reformers questioned their inspiration and removed them from the canon from which doctrine could be proved. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church still view these books as part of the canonical bible and use them liturgically. The most famous example is the opening of the mass for the dead, "Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine" which is taked from the Book of Esdras. This book along with Maccabees were targeted particularly by the reformers because they supported propitiatory prayer for the dead. None of the reformed churches permitted direct intercession for the dead, one of the reasons that all of Bach's funeral texts are admonitions to the living.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (March 10, 2008):
Jean Laaninen wrote:
< Does anyone know if readings from the Apocrapha were used in the original Roman lectionary? >
Almost none. On the Vigil Saturday of Pentecost, there was a reading from Baruch. It was unusual for a reading on Sunday to include anything from the Old Testament. Maybe for a funeral mass, there could be a reading from one of the deuterocanonical books, but I'm not sure.

Peter Smaill wrote (March 10, 2008):
[To Kim Patrick Clow] Bach's librettists quote the Apocrypha four times; Sirach 1:28 (BWV 106/2); Sirach 50:22 (BWV 79/3 and 192/1) and Sirach 50:23-24 (BWV 192/2). The numbrering for the German Bible is different , but it appears Luther translates in the case of BWV 192, "Nun Danket Alle Gott". BWV 106, BWV 79 and BWV 192 are not for Sundays in the lectionary but for the Reformation Festival or in the case of BWV 106, a funeral.

Jean Laaninen wrote (March 10, 2008):
[To Kim Patrick Clow] Thank you, Kim. I think knowing these incidences broadens our historical perspective.

Jean Laaninen wrote (March 10, 2008):
[To Peter Smaill] Thank you, Peter. You have answered my question, and I find the connection to Sirach interesting.

Douglas Cowling wrote (March 10, 2008):
[To Peter Smaill] I'm curious to know if the texts from Sirach are quoted directly as "dicta" or indirectly as allusions in poetic texts.

Jean Laaninen wrote (March 10, 2008):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< It is more accurate to refer to the deutero-canonical books of the Bible rather than the apochrypha which were books which were never part of the canon of scriptures. >
***Thank you for your response.

***Before I sold the text titled "The Apocrapha" (just prior to retirement) this would not have been an incorrect reference to my mind--especially given that Peter substantiated the request, and Kim also responded in like manner to use the term Apocrapha as these texts which Lutherans do not use are gathered into a collection with widespread readership throughout the world. So, I would have to say that the context of the question might determine how the question was to be phrased. It depends upon what reference one is working from in asking, even along with the source/location/denomination of seminary training. I'm fascinated sometimes by the differences in terminology in Christendom.
To be honest here, however, I do not remember precisely which books are contained as it has been some years since I delved into this topic.Yes, I did realize that these books were removed from the canon, but I still think it is quite appropriate to phrase my question as I did. And of course, we used your term when I was in seminary, too.

This reminds of the example of pericopies and lectionary as terms that are in some places used interchangeably.
----
< The former were part of the accepted canon of the Bible until the Reformation when Luther and many of the reformers questioned their inspiration and removed them from the canon from which doctrine could be proved. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church still view these books as part of the canonical bible and use them liturgically. >
***When I was a seminarian at Fuller Father Sam Gantt chose me to be the first woman to read the Scriptures in early morning prayer--an interdenominational daily gathering that was conducted with Orthodox practices. I was truly honored as his invitation to do so broke down some traditional barriers from his denominational perspective. Then other women were accorded the same respect.
***Our daughter was married in the RCC (though her family is no longer with them) and texts Lutherans and Presbyterians do not used were incorporated into the service. So, I have a personal familiarity with the matter. It is clear tome that these texts serve members of the RCC and the Orthodox as fully inspirational, even though Luther would not agree.

Georg Fischer wrote (March 10, 2008):
I don't believe that the scripture texts at Bach's time have anything to do with those in our times, even before 1970. Catholics now use cycles of 3 years, while protestants have 6 year cycles. I've taken the pericopes from my grandfathers (Lutheran) church song book before and after 1880, and I think that the 2^nd, 3^rd and 6^th column in my table might have also been relevant at Bach's time: http://www.punctum.com/gramword/bibleref/luther_perikope.html

Column 1 has English codes for the (sun-)days in the church year which should be more or less self-explanatory, and the links behind the texts lead to a German online bible.

Jean Laaninen wrote (March 10, 2008):
[To Georg Fischer] Thank you for making this valuable table available to the group. I wonder if Aryeh would like to post it somewhere on the site, as this is particularly historically interesting. I'd also be interested in knowing if your analysis coincides with the listings that Paul McCain's Missouri Synod Lutheran Church still uses--Paul, we're listening if you have something to add here.

Bruce Simonson wrote (March 11, 2008):
[To Georg Fischer] Thanks for this table of information!

Paul T. McCain wrote (March 11, 2008):
[To Georg Fischer] You are correct that the majority of Western churches no longer use the historic lectionary, but it is very much still in use by any number of Lutheran congregations in our church body here in America and our partner church in Germany, the Old Lutheran Church (the Independent Evangelical Lutheran Church in Germany) still uses the one year lectionary.

Our church's new hymnal project in fact provided new resources for the one year lectionary because of the fact that an increasing number of our congregations use it.

So, it is still alive and well, just not as widely used as before.

The added "bonus" for any Lutheran pastor using the one year lectionary/historic lectionary is that he has a wealth of resources from which to draw when preparing his sermons, including the sermons of Martin Luther and of course can draw on the poetry and imagry of the Bach cantatas, something I've often done for devotional and sermonic writing.

The older lectionaries to which you refer probably are referenced to other older lectionaries, one of which is called the "Thomasius" lectionary.

But, the bottom line is that the same lectionary that was in use in Martin Luther's time, in Bach's time is still being used to this day by some Lutheran congregations.

Paul T. McCain wrote (March 11, 2008):
[To Douglas Cowling] The book of Sirach, as well as the other so-called Apocryphal books, were part and parcel of the Luther bible translation that was used in Bach's day and down to the present era in all German bibles. In America, these books were all included in the Scriptures published in German, but when the move to English came, they were dropped.

Readings from these books are found occasionally in historic
lectionary resources.

In the Lutheran Church they have never had the status of equality with the more universally and historically accepted books of the Bible. It was not until the Council of Trent in the 1550s that the Roman Church declared them to be on an equal standing as the other books of the bible and this primarily because it is in the Apocryphal books that there is found "proof texts" for the Roman doctrine of purgatory, etc. hence indulgences, hence that little "to do" that started on Oct. 31, 1517 when a monk in the little backwater of Wittenberg posted 95 theses on the issue.

Jean Laaninen wrote (March 11, 2008):
[To Paul T. McCain] Thanks, Paul.

Jean Laaninen wrote (March 11, 2008):
[To Paul T. McCain] Thank you, Paul for these details that help to hold the whole picture together. I am not aware that the Swede's retained these additional books, but maybe someone on the list with a Scandinavian background could say for sure.

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Last update: �March 21, 2008 �18:02:42