Sigiswald Kuijken - Bach Cantatas & Other Vocal Works

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Sigiswald Kuijken & La Petite Bande
Bach Cantatas & Other Vocal Works
General Discussions

Kuijken

Matthew Westphal wrote (November 28, 2000):
Matthew writes:
<< OVPP = one-voice-per-part (actually, one singer per part -- the Rifkin-Parrott-McCreesh-Kuijken method) >>
< Colin 't Hart wrote: Since when has Kuijken been OVPP? I have his recording of the Magnificat (BWV 243) coupled with BWV 21 on which the Netherlands Chamber Choir makes an appearance. This CD contains my favourite recordings of both works. >
Since when? Since last year.

Kuijken told me in an interview in late September (which will be published at Andante.com if we can ever get the damned thing up and running) that his mind was changed by the debate between Parrott, Rifkin and John Butt (on one side) and Koopman and Christoph Wolff (on the other) in the pages of the journal Early Music between 1996 and 1998.

He and La Petite Bande have spent a good part of this year performing cantatas and the B-Minor Mass OVPP in Europe, Latin America and China.

Kuijken addresses this issue in a couple of essays on the La Petite Bande Web site: http://www.ping.be/lapetitebande/

Most of the site is in Dutch, but you will see a link to the English-language pages at the upper left corner of the homepage.

For the essays, click on "Binnenkort" or "Coming Soon."

There is also a link showing the various places La Petite Bande has performed (and will perform in December). Am I really the only one on the list who heard them do the Mass this year?

La Petite Bande and French Style

Bradley Lehman wrote (March 13, 2002):
Bradley Lehaman wrote:
<< I believe that Kuijken comes to all this with an especial emphasis on the French strands of things: Muffat and Lully. After all, he named his own orchestra "La Petite Bande" after the French court orchestra where the playing styles were described by Muffat's and Lully's principles.... But the essay in his S&P set also goes into the Italians and Leopold Mozart. (Much of the same essay is also in his set of the violin-and-harpsichord sonatas, with Leonhardt.) >>
Tom Hens wrote: I wouldn't read too much into the use of the name La Petite Bande by Kuijken. The name was originally chosen in the early seventies because Deutsche Harmonia Mundi wanted an ensemble to make some recordings of music by people like Lully and Muffat, centered around Gustav Leonhardt and Sigiswald Kuijken. Recycling the colloquial name of Lully's court orchestra was an obvious choice. The name stuck (understandably, since it's a charming name IMO), and came to mean "whatever orchestral group Sigiswald Kuijken puts together for a particular recording project". It doesn't imply that he has any particular loyalty to French seventeenth-century performance practice. After all, La Petite Bande has recorded Mozart operas and Haydn symphonies, that's hardly related to Muffat's and Lully's style, is it? >
I understand, and agree with you about the "pick-up" nature of it. But it's also true that La Petite Bande was expressly formed to concentrate (at first) on the operas of Lully and Campra, and concerti and suites of Muffat and Corelli. They did indeed devour the treatises of Muffat, Hotteterre, Quantz, Leopold Mozart, et al, to acquaint themselves with the period French manners of bowing and tongueing (and pronunciation for singers). I studied those treatises ten years ago and remember the basic methodology; it has to do with differentiation of the sounds of up-bow and down-bow, and filling wind lines with variegated syllables (consonants T, D, R, L), and choosing which to put where according to prescribed guidelines.

It's a basic grammar of musical expression with which composers and performers build phrases. It's a common language for any music that has a gram of French style in it, and that goes right up through Bach, Telemann, and the other Germans emulating it to various degrees. Play it in that basic French manner down to every level of detail, and already most of the expression is taken care of! And when somebody, e.g. Gaehler or Pogorelich or Gould or Rostropovich or S Richter, chucks all those principles out the window in favor of some other approach, it strikes me as impoverished: where are all those lovely French nuances? Why are they imposing a new foreign language on the music, with fewer dimensions of interest, instead of just letting it speak an easily-flowing articulated French the way it's written?

But we digress. Different modern people enjoy hearing different things. Fair enough.

If I could find my photocopies of Muffat and Hotteterre today I'd check their views on bowing and tongueing again more directly (see a secondary report below). But I did check it again in Quantz (Berlin, 1752) this morning: he recommends the French manner of bowing as "a much better effect" ahead of the Italian manner for orchestral string players. And that's how La Petite Bande plays, in the documented French manner.

Kuijken and his band later brought that default French mind-set forward into the Bach violin concertos, Bach orchestral suites, Rameau, etc. with outstandingly good results. 20 years after they made those recordings, I think those are still some of the very best for their blend of style and commitment, catching the dance and elegance of the music. Sure, they went on to other things also. But they started explicitly in the early 1970s with "particular loyalty to French seventeenth-century performance practice."

That is, I wasn't just saying anything like "I think Kuijken plays Frenchily because his band has a French name borrowed from Lully." I said it because Kuijken's playing agrees with all the French principles I've read about; so does his band's way of articulating with the bowing (plenty of consecutive downbows), the "ti-ri" wind tongueing, and so on. They've done careful preparatory work, and it pays off in the sound. I find their phrasing and articulation extremely compelling in the airy, hearty, physical feel they reveal in the music. The basic sound is so unproblematic and graceful, and the music's structure is so clear.

-----

And here's part of an article by David Douglass, writing in "The Violin Family" in A Performer's Guide to Seventeenth Century Music:

[he discusses Italian bowing first...] "There is one major exception to this approach to bowing seventeenth-century repertoires and that is the so-called 'French rule of down-bow,' developed by Jean-Baptiste Lully during the last half of the seventeenth century and used by players of many nationalities for the performance of French-style orchestral music. After the restoration of the monarchy in England with the crowning of Charles II, for example, court violinists were required to learn and perform orchestral music acording to this French approach to bowing. Much of the music from English composers of the late seventeenth century--Henry Purcell, for one--should be performed with French bowings."

"The French system of bowing is an elaborate method that organizes the bowing so as to place a down-bow at the beginning of every measure. It is a utilitarian approach to bowing, rather than a musical one, that solves the problem of having many violinists play in unison without time-consuming discussions about bowing. There is, however, a distinctive musical effect that results from playing many consecutive down-bows, as often happens within this system. Repeatedly taking the bow off the string causes the sounds to be punctuated by silences, thereby producing a light, poised effect. The primary source of information about French bowings comes to us from the preface of Georg Muffat's _Florilegium Secundum_, a summary of which can be found in David Boyden's monumental History of Violin Playing. Muffat's examples of the bowings used in Lully's orchestra leave many questions about the use of the bow unanswered, but further clarifying information can be found in the writings of Michel Pignolet de Monteclair and Pierre Dupont. A summarization of Monteclair's and 's work was assembled by Herbert Myers, and can be found in the preface to George Houle's edition of Pierre Beauchamps's Ballet de Facheux (Bloomington, 1991)."

Charles Francis wrote (March 14, 2002):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
< ... It's a basic grammar of musical expression with which composers and performers build phrases. It's a common language for any music that has a gram of French style in it, and that goes right up through Bach, Telemann, and the other Germans emulating it to various degrees. Play it in that basic French manner down to every level of detail, and already most of the expression is taken care of! >
A perfect example of applying HIP-doctrines to limit the interpretation-space!

< And when somebody, e.g. Gaehler or Pogorelich or Gould or Rostropovich or S Richter, chucks all those principles out the window in favor of some other approach, it strikes me as impoverished: where are all those lovely French nuances? Why are they imposing a new foreign language on the music, with fewer dimensions of interest, instead of just letting it speak an easily-flowing articulated French the way it's written? >
Regarding the 'French style', Gould once wrote "It was a disastrous influence that inspired Bach to produce an extroverted over-decorated style of writing". Needless to say in the French Suites, corrections are made to return the music to its natural polyphonic idiom.

Bill H. wrote (March 14, 2002):
[To Bradley Lehman] I forwarded these and other comments in this thread to a friend of mine (who does wish to remain anonymous, since she's not a part of this email list), who is a friend of the Kuijkens and knows a lot of the inner workings of La Petite Bande. Here's her reply, edited by me for relevance to this thread:

"Hey man, we've all moved on from French baroque - except perhaps for Bill Christie. To call LPB a pick-up band is probably very American. The orchestra has a very democratic make up and is organised democratically. But if the back desks aren't always needed that doesn't mean that Sigiswald just looks up a list of musicians available on the general market - I know about the back desks of some other period performance bands! Sure the membership has changed over the years - what orchestra today has all the same members as 30 years ago? Bart and Wieland do play sometimes and Marleen, Sigiswald and Piet Dombrecht have always been there! There's loads written about Sigiswald's theory and practice of music making - although most of it in Dutch or if you are lucky in German. Also some in French but not so much.

Sigiswald remains open to new research - his one to a part Bach is stunning although not recorded -although I think I told you at the time that with Marleen singing along at the Motets it wasn't absolutely one to a part!"

So I think she was quibbling with some of the characterizations made here of how LPB operates, while acknowledging/appreciating the positive comments made by Brad about the older performances.

Anyway, thought this might be of interest.

Tom Hens wrote (March 15, 2002):
[To Bill H.] I'm not sure what Brad's term "pick-up" means. In Dutch we have the term "kaartenbakorkest", which one could loosely translate into American English as "Rolodex orchestra", maybe that's what is meant (some people seem to think that's also a very pejorative term to use, I don't think so, it depends on which names are in that Rolodex IMO).

I certainly didn't mean to suggest that La Petite Bande is just a different group of random musicians for every project they undertake. Of course it has a core of regulars, an evolving membership just like any other musical ensemble, and artistic continuity. I was just saying that I don't think one should necessarily read the name of the group as some kind of artistic manifesto when they're playing music far removed from the origins of the repertoire they owe their name to.

How to say Kuijken

Jim Morrison wrote (May 13, 2003):
Speaking of Kuijken, I've been talking offlist about a typical English was to say the name, and it turns out that we aren't even close most of the time.

Here are some of the tips for pronouncing the first syllable that I've found in the web. Any Dutch speakers feel free to write in with further tips.

Follow the link in the middle for a sound clip of the Dutch word huis. If only they'd said Kuijken instead!

UI - Has a sound not known in english, it kinda sounds like a nasal A followed by an english Y sound... Dutch examples: (huis, buiten, ruit)

There are some confusing vowel diphthongs, such as "ui" which, inexplicably, is pronounced "ow" as in "cow". Consequently, "uit" is pronounced "out" and means it as well.

ui -, inscrutable! At first sight (sight, yes?) it appears to sound like English ou because words like uit, bruin, huis correspond to English out, brown and house. But, the correct sound lies somewhere in between English ou and English oy (as in toy). Examples: bui-ten (outside), ui (onion), vis-kuit (spawn).

.....

ui A very abstract sound, not found anywhere else. At a basic level, it is like ou in house (hence Dutch huis), but depending on what course you take, it can be a number of similar sounds. Rarely, it is like German eu, for example in Cape Dutch; but commonly, it sounds halfway between aai and aau/aauw. Some say it also has elements of French oeui.
http://home.wanadoo.nl/mvgompel/pronunciation_nl_en.html

UI: The dutch diphtong UI, as in the dutch word HUIS, sounds a bit like the english word PEARL. It's recommended to listen to the sound because it's hard to explain

ui This is apparently one of the most difficult sounds to produce for English speaking persons. It is formed lower in the mouth and by rounding the lips a little less than for the uu-. The sound produced is between the ou- and the eu-.
A bit like saying the mute "e" followed by the "UU" sound, but very smooth.
It is found in the Dutch words huis (house) and vuil (dirty).
Examples: ui, fluiten, tuin, gebruiken, kruis, besluiten, stuiten, uit.

Gene Hanson wrote (May 13, 2003):
[To Jim Morrison] I guess I'll have to continue through life not knowing how to pronounce it.

When I was in college (almost half a century ago) I was a campus radio announcer for a while. I wanted a classical program, but they wouldn't give me the program, and I had to do pop music. I quit in disgust when I heard the classical announcer announce the 5^th Symphony by ShosTOCKovich.

Bart O�Brien wrote (May 13, 2003):
[To Jim Morrison] I'm sort-of a Dutch speaker, cos I've lived here for 20 years. I can tell you that it is absolutely hopeless for a native English-speaker to pronounce -ui- like a Dutchman does, so don't waste time trying. Just pronounce it as English -ow-.

However, you can easily gain some points by pronouncing the second syllable of Kuijken correctly. Final n in -en is silent in Dutch.So pronounce Kuijen like I do: kow-kuh.

Bernard Nys wrote (May 13, 2003):
I speak Dutch, pronouncing Kuijken is not difficult, but the funny thing is that it means "chick" and here in Belgium when we speak about the Family Kuijken, everyone imagines a family of chickens & chicks!

Joost wrote (May 14, 2003):
[To Bart O�Brien] Come on Bart, you are giving up too easily! But maybe part of the problem is that native English speakers don't feel the urge to learn Dutch when living in The Netherlands, because most people understand you anyway.

Bart O�Brien wrote (May 14, 2003):
[To Joost] Onzin. Ik kan je verzekeren dat ik de hele tijd Nederlands spreek bij mijn werk op het ministerie.

groetjes, bart

Jeremy Thomas wrote (May 14, 2003):
[To Jim Morrison] My feeble contribution.

I've heard it pronounced on radio (presumably correctly!), and think I can attempt to copy this sound, but understand why it is so hard to describe to anyone else without them hearing it for themselves too.

Try this: for anyone familiar with British English, or who knows a strong Northern Irish accent, the first syllable sounds a bit like someone from Belfast/similar saying "cow". A diphthong, KER (the R not rolled) followed immediately by a simpconsonant Y.

Hope that makes sense!

François Haidon wrote (May 14, 2003):
Another way, for those with at least a slight knowledge of French: Kuijken is pronounced exactly as the (absolutely improbable) French "qu'oeil que".

That's all I can do to help! :)

Jim Morrison wrote (May 16, 2003):
Thanks for the help with the Kuijken pronunciation issue.

Kuijken and La Petite Bande on tour

Peter Bright wrote (February 20, 2004):
Admirers of Sigiswald Kuijken may wish to know that he is celebrating his 60^th birthday with a European tour. This was posted today on the Goldberg site:

Kuijken and La Petite Bande

20-02-2004

Sigiswald Kuijken, one of the pioneers of the baroque revolution, will be celebrating his sixtieth birthday in 2004. La Petite Bande feted its thirtieth anniversary in 2002. But make no mistake about it, the illustrious violinist is still bursting with energy and his ensemble's concerts are out to prove it. The group will be taking Bach's Brandenburg Concertos on the road, with stops in the Vienna Konzerthaus (2 March), the Louvain Auditorium (3 March) and the Maison de Radio France (4 April). The Saint Matthew Passion will also go on a lengthy tour.

It's well-known that Sigiswald Kuijken has definitively adopted Joshua Rifkin's theories, and that the results have elicited mixed reactions from his colleagues, to say the least. His B Minor Mass (BWV 232), performed according to these aesthetic precepts, opened up fascinating perspectives. Will his Saint Matthew (BWV 244) be more successful than Paul McCreesh's? Those who want to see for themselves will have many opportunities: 28 March in Andorra, 2 April in Louvain, 3 April in Paris (Radio France), 6 April in Milano, 7 April in Padua, and 9 April in Massmechelen.

Continue of the discussion, see: Mass in B minor BWV 232 - conducted by Sigiswald Kuijken

Complete cantatas recording by Kuijken

Paul Dirmeikis wrote (February 5, 2006):
Good morning to all, (and this is a VERY good morning, according to what follows...)

My browsing jogging on the Internet just made me find that Sigiswald Kuijken (on Accent label) is starting a recording of the complete cantatas. Obviously with an OVPP principle.
Volume 1 has already been released: http://www.abeillemusique.com/produit.php?cle=14883 .
Listen to the sample. I found very beautiful and promising... I immediately ordered the CD, and will let you know later about my impressions.

Paul Dirmeikis wrote (February 5, 2006):
P.S. : Just find out that volume 2 also has been released... http://www.abeillemusique.com/produit.php?cle=14884

Aryeh Oron wrote (February 5, 2006):
[To Paul Dirmeikis] The first two volumes are already listed at the BCW.
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Performers/Kuijken.htm [C-5] & [C-6]
as well as the relevant cantata pages.

I am not sure if this series is aiming at a complete cantata oeuvre, or only one cantata per event, which means about 60 cantatas (in similar vein to Richter).

Olle Hedström wrote (February 5, 2006):
[To Paul Dirmeikis] thanks for the good news regarding Kuijken's new OVPP recordings of cantatas. Furthermore in the SACD format. Very promising and interesting.

Do you know if these recordings are available elsewhere than in France ?

Kirk McElhearn wrote (February 5, 2006):
[To Olle Hedström] That's a real surprise. And people say that classical music doesn't sell any more? With all these complete cantata sets, I'd have to disagree... Unless it's Aryeh who's keeping them alive. :-)

Paul Dirmeikis wrote (February 5, 2006):
I saw them also available on jpc.de: http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7953279/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist (But anyway, thanks to the Internet, couldn't we say that they are worldwide available?)

Matthew Westphal wrote (February 5, 2006):
Another OVPP cantata cycle (was Re: Kuijken cantatas cycle)

[To Paul Dirmeikis] Actually, there's a second one-singer-per-part Bach cantata cycle underway, on the Canadian label Atma Classique (www.atmaclassique.com).

But there seem to be some problems or delays in actually getting the discs to market. I first found out about the series sometime in the autumn of 2004. Atma's website lists the release dates for vols. 1 and 2 as June and September 2005, respectively. But I have had serious difficulty in finding retailers who actually have the discs to sell. Amazon.com (USA) briefly showed vol. 1, but no more; Buy.com had vol. 1 with a release date in January 2006 but now shows it as completely unavailable; Amazon.ca and Archambault.ca don't show it at all (as far as I can tell).

The distributor SRI Canada does show it, but doesn't show any way to order online (other than to send an e-mail to someone at an outfit called Touch Bass).

I've just done a few more searches. Amazon.de shows them available (with a 4-6-week lead time); Amazon.fr has them as well (lead time uncertain). To my surprise and relief; JPC.de has them both - and has sound clips!

Below is info on the discs (which are SACD hybrids), plus links to the relevant pages at SRI Canada and JPC.

Bach's Complete Sacred Cantatas on SACD VOL. 1:
Cantatas for the Feast of St. John the Baptist:
BWV 7, 30, 167
Suzie LeBlanc, soprano; Daniel Taylor, countertenor; Charles Daniels, tenor; Stephan MacLeod, bass;
Montréal Baroque; Eric Milnes
Atma SACD22400
http://www.sricanada.com/product.do?productID=SACD22400
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7548934/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist

Bach Sacred Cantatas Volume 2:
Cantatas for the feast of Archangel Michael
BWV 19, 130, 149
Monika Mauch, soprano; David DQ Lee, alto; Jan Kobow, tenor; Stephan MacLeod, bass; Montréal Baroque; Eric Milnes
Atma SACD22401
http://www.sricanada.com/product.do?productID=SACD22401
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1519718/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist

Aryeh Oron wrote (February 5, 2006):
[To Matthew Westphal] These series is also listed at the BCW.
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Performers/Milnes.htm

Paul Dirmeikis wrote (February 5, 2006):
[To Matthew Westphal] Thank you very much for this information. The samples on jpc.de sound great. My bank account will perhaps not be pleased, but my ears and soul will!

Neil Halliday wrote (February 7, 2006):
Kuijken OVPP sample

http://www.abeillemusique.com/produit.php?cle=14883

This sample of BWV 56's final chorale is certainly a lovely example of an OVPP performance.

The voice parts flow nicely, and the tempo is right for this beautiful "Come, O death, sleep's brother" chorale (same as Rilling's).

Notice the solidity and stability supplied by the prominent oboe that doubles the soprano line. This oboe's trill at the end of some of the lines is also a lovely touch. (The brittle, swelling, (petite?), gut-string violins of La Petite Bande will no doubt irritate me in movements where they have important parts, but here they dissolve into
the overall texture).

Notice also the Richteresque tenutos on the fermatas. It was a long time coming, after the Harnoncourt 'separation of words, and shortening of the final notes' revolution of the late 70's!

I notice, in following the score at the BCW, that it is actually not any easier to follow the individual lines in this OVPP performance, compared with Rilling's recording, but this is important from an aesthetic point of view; the balance of the voices and the instruments is very pleasing in this OVPP performance.

BTW, at the start of the second section of this chorale, the tenor's note is actually below the bass, which has the same note as the alto at this point (ie, the tenor is below the unison bass and alto, requiring a keen ear to follow the voices separately).

Kuijken's renditions

Ed Myskowski wrote (February 25, 2008):
Neil Mason wrote, in reply to [?]:
>>My preference of renditions differs from time to time according to what element I need and want at the moment.<<
Neil M.
>I have been taking note, however, of the general approbation of Kujiken recently. What aspects of the music does he treat as important that you find attractive?<
Although I was not the first on BCML to comment positively on the Kuijken recordings, most of the recent approbation has come from me, I believe, as the result of the series of solo cantatas for which I wrote the introductions. I hope you are correct that the approbation was general, but I think most of was me, repeatedly from week to week. There is probably a marketing message in there somewhere.

In no particular order, from bottom to top perhaps, the postive features:

(1) Attention to continuo details and up to date performance practice.

(2) Nice balance between continuo, main instruments, and voices.

(3) Great detail in the OVPP texture. Not a plus if you like to hear a blend of large forces. Even then, for performance planning, you might find the spare exposure of the music helpful as an audible score. Something like that.

(4) Outstanding soloists (who are also the choir). At the risk of omitting someone, I will not mention my favorites again. You will not be disappointed in anyone. Satisfaction guaranteed, direct complaints to Julian Mincham.

(5) A sense of continuous performance. I do not know how to explain this better. The recordings do not sound like an assemblage by engineers.

(6) Thoughtful booklet notes. I am always gratified when someone states their artistic goal, and achieves it. In this case, Kuijkens stated goals are expression of a lifetime of performing experience, absorption of the OVPP scholarly research in actual performance practice, and careful integration of the meters and rhythms of text and music. To my ear, he achieves these objectives admirably.

The next CD (Vol. 6) was due out in Nov. 2007. According to the Accent website, that was postponed until Feb. 2008. I am watching for it, starting to look overdue.

If you are at all tempted, buy a CD. It would be great to see this series continue, a little support can't hurt. If you are unhappy, direct complaints to Julian Mincham. Did I already say that? A few of you guys out there, I really love.

Julian Mincham wrote (February 25, 2008):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< If you are at all tempted, buy a CD. It would be great to see this series continue, a little support can't hurt. If you are unhappy, direct complaints to Julian Mincham. Did I already say that? A few of you guys out there, I really love. >
Why me Ed? I've never advocated Kijkens on this lis! Mainly because I don't know enough of his work.

Harry W. Crosby wrote (February 25, 2008):
Now, on the subject of the Kuijken series: I cannot pretend to explain in musical terms my attraction to these performances/recordings. But Neil's original question and answers by Ed and Julian certainly identify one salient element that leads to my enthusiasm: a freshness, a new look, a difference that reminds me that my simplistic earlier idea of simply having a favorite version of each cantata, playing that, and getting what I need. Thank you Ed, Neil, and Julian!

Kuijken and his bright crew won me over despite my general lack of enthusiasm for OVPP --- now, in a several cases I actually prefer choruses in that form to any of my other versions. And that made me wonder why, and to analyze those choruses to see what made them, in my mind, more compelling in this smaller, more immediate form. I have fun now thinking, as I listen to further choruses, "OK, how would this one translate to OVPP?" And I look forward to listening to Kuijken et alia as they record the choruses about which I speculate. Will my speculation work? Do I know myself that well? Can I possibly know enough about music to anticipate what I will see as success in such a transfer?

So, for what it is worth, my endorsement of Kuijken --- who is also beautifully recorded!

Bradley Lehman wrote (February 25, 2008):
Ed Myskowski wrote about Kuijken's ongoing cantatas series:
< In no particular order, from bottom to top perhaps, the postive features:
(1) Attention to continuo details and up to date performance practice. >
We should point out, for any who haven't seen those booklet notes yet: about half of Kuijken's continuo section in the essay is about his intriguing use of a different cello, and the claims he makes about its importance. It's held against the chest or shoulder, and sometimes strap-on.

He has also done a new recording of Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" using that, but I haven't heard it yet. It's a 2007 release on Accent.

Ed Myskowski wrote (February 25, 2008):
Harry W. Crosby wrote:
>Kuijken and his bright crew won me over despite my general lack of enthusiasm for OVPP<
Good to see you rejoining the fray. I dont expect it is any secret that you and I became back-row pals back in the nostalgic days of the BCML Pub.

From the other side of the issue, I am always pleasantly surprised at how the best of traditional performances reward careful listening. Kuijken himself is the first to point out that his performance choices do not necessarily make other approaches obsolete; no line-up of forces can substitute for good taste nor overcome bad taste.

Speaking of careful listening, this gives me an opportunity to apologize again for writing carelessly about the Kahlhofer LP of BWV 207, after a single quick and casual run through. I heard what I expected to hear, rather than what is actually there. Like all of the early Cantate LPs that I have available, it is in fact a very detailed and enjoyable performance.

Also apologies for any grammatical confusion. I find that my own apostrophes are transmitted back to me intermittently, sometimes correct, sometimes garbled. Given the choice of, for example: Bach[garbage]s, Bach*s, or Bachs, I am staying with the latter as the least objectionable or confusing. I do know better, it is a choce of the lesser of the evils.

Jean Laaninen wrote (February 25, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski] Well, Ed, minor errors or not--we almost all make them sometimes, to your credit you stay with the discussion in spite of the problems your computer gives you.

That aside...and this probably should be a separate message, but I am not going to take the time, Dürr does not include oboe d'amore in aria iii of 207... I checked that after checking my score. So, it is possible that there has been some cross use of scores, or perhaps material included that belongs elsewhere--or, alternatively yet one more optional choice someone made. In the future I will try to list which score I used so that if someone doesn't find something or finds something different they can cross-reference this material if they have the identical score available.

Neil Mason wrote (February 26, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski] Well if the approbation has all come from you, there has been no dissent.

Thank you for putting your thoughts into words - sometimes this is a difficult process for such intangible matters.

You might have persuaded me to try some.

Terejia wrote (February 26, 2008):
[To Neil Mason] Greeting Neil,

Although Ed and others replied to it far better than myself replies in between :

Ed Myskowski wrote:
< Neil Mason wrote, in reply to [?]:
>I have been taking note, however, of the general approbation of Kujiken recently. What aspects of the music does he treat as important that you find attractive?<
Ed wrote
>> Although I was not the first on BCML to comment positively on the Kuijken recordings, most of the recent approbation has come from me, I believe, as the result of the series of solo cantafor which I wrote the introductions. I hope you are correct that the approbation was general, but I think most of was me, repeatedly from week to week. There is probably a marketing message in there somewhere.
In no particular order, from bottom to top perhaps, the postive features:
(1) Attention to continuo details and up to date performance practice.
(2) Nice balance between continuo, main instruments, and voices.<<
As to Cantata performance of Kuijken, I only have SJP BWV 245 excerpt. So far, I concur. I found continuo of "Mein treuer Heiland" absolutely beautiful and spirituel.

>> (3) Great detail in the OVPP texture. Not a plus if you like to hear a blend of large forces. Even then, for performance planning, you might find the spare exposure of the music helpful as an audible score. Something like that.
(4) Outstanding soloists (who are also the choir). At the risk of omitting someone, I will not mention my favorites again. You will not be disappointed in anyone. Satisfaction guaranteed, direct complaints to Julian Mincham.
(5) A sense of continuous performance. I do not know how to explain this better. The recordings do not sound like an assemblage by engineers.<<
My excerpt of BWV 245 version was not OVPP(I failed to find this in abbreviation section but someone just happened to explained it in the listand I came to know the definition : one voice per part) so I and Ed seem to be talking about different Kujken versions.

As to OVPP, I only have Rifkin BWV 78, BWV 99, BWV 8. Beautiful ensemble indeed.

>> (6) Thoughtful booklet notes. I am always gratified when someone states their artistic goal, and achieves it. In this case, Kuijkens stated goals are expression of a lifetime of performing experience, absorption of the OVPP scholarly research in actual performance practice, and careful integration of the meters and rhythms of text and music. To my ear, he achieves these objectives admirably. <<
Sounds worthy goals to pursue. OVPP generally seems to suggest a relentlessly academic direction and technical perfection if anything devoid of humanity, though these two elements may not always have to be incompatible.

Terejia wrote (February 27, 2008):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
> (..)
Although I was not the first on BCML to comment positively on the Kuijken recordings, most of the recent approbation has come from me, I believe, as the result of the series of solo cantatas for which I wrote the introductions. I hope you are correct that the approbation was general, but I think most of was me, repeatedly from week to week. There is probably a marketing message in there somewhere.<
Since Ed has been so insistent upon(used humorously here :-))
listening to Kuijken , I bought CD of BWV 248 Weihenacths Oratorium today. It was not OVPP. Recorded in 1997.We seem to be talking about different Kuijken but nevertheless, basic line of direction has not drastically changed since then.

> In no particular order, from bottom to top perhaps, the postive features:
(1) Attention to continuo details and up to date performance practice.
(2) Nice balance between continuo, main instruments, and voices.<
I found this to be the case. I was listenging to Teil 1 and Teil 2 while I was preparing for legal lecture tommorrow and answering question from the student. (Not with score in my hand but this is the only way I can listen to CD these days)

I found this to be the case. I particularly liked his precise rendition of trills, precise articulations, that he conducted so that each instrument can be heard like a beautiful mosaic pattern. Only thing that I didn't care for so much is too heavy a timpani in introduction to Teil 1. Vibrato was fairly modest and refrained in solists but could have been deleted more.

> (3) Great detail in the OVPP texture. Not a plus if you like to hear a blend of large forces. Even then, for performance planning, you might find the spare exposure of the music helpful as an audible score. Something like that.
(4) Outstanding soloists (who are also the choir). At the risk of omitting someone, I will not mention my favorites again. You will not be disappointed in anyone. Satisfaction guaranteed, direct complaints to Julian Mincham. <
Since my CD is not OVPP, I have no comment on these.

> (5) A sense of continuous performance. I do not know how to explain this better. The recordings do not sound like an assemblage by engineers. <
I can vaguely sense this. I would listen to more and I may talk about it later.

> (6) Thoughtful booklet notes. I am always gratified when someone states their artistic goal, and achieves it. In this case, Kuijkens stated goals are expression of a lifetime of performing experience, absorption of the OVPP scholarly research in actual performance practice, and careful integration of the meters and rhythms of text and music. To my ear, he achieves these objectives admirably.
The next CD (Vol. 6) was due out in Nov. 2007. According to the Accent website, that was postponed until Feb. 2008. I am watching for it, starting to look overdue.
If you are at all tempted, buy a CD. It would be great to see this series continue, a little support can't hurt. If you are unhappy, direct complaints to Julian Mincham. Did I already say that? A few of you guys out there, I really love. >
As to the CD I bought today, which was fairly cheap, I didn't see any booklet stating goals by the conductor himself. Thank you for your information, which led me to a new world of BWV 248-so far I have heard Harnoncourt(old version), Dresdenkreuzchoir by Martin Flemig and Karl Richter (Karl Richter is in my father's collection not mine).

Ed Myskowski wrote (February 27, 2008):
Terejia wrote:
>Since Ed has been so insistent upon(used humorously here :-))
listening to Kuijken , I bought CD of BWV 248 Weihenacths Oratorium today. It was not OVPP. Recorded in 1997.We seem to be talking about different Kuijken but nevertheless, basic line of direction has not drastically changed since then.<
It is the same Kuijken. I do not have the BWV 248 recording as yet. I have been referring mainly to the series of recordings of cantatas on the Accent label which began in 2006, and reached Vol. 5 in 2007. We can only hope that Vol. 6 will be released as scheduled, due out now, Feb. 2008, and that the series will continue to complete its planned scope of twenty volumes by 2011.

In the booklet notes to that series, Kuijken describes how he gradually came to respect and adopt the performance practice, which for convenience, we call OVPP. I expect that you are exactly right, his performance practice did not change drastically, but evolved from small choir to OVPP.

Incidentally, when I first joined BCML a few years ago, this abbreviation (OVPP) confused me as well. Like you, I eventually figured it out in context. Later, I realized that it is included in the BCW <Terms and Abbreviations> section, under the <Musical Terms> heading. I expect it can also be found using the <Search> function, although I did not confirm this just now.

I appreciate the humour. I like to think of my insistence, in the nature of diligence. Not everyone agrees.

Ed Myskowski wrote (February 27, 2008):
Terejia wrote:
>As to the CD I bought today, which was fairly cheap, I didn't see any booklet stating goals by the conductor himself. Thank you for your information, which led me to a new world of BWV 248<
I think you did well to acquire this Kuijken CD, especially at a good price. It appears that it is getting old (1997) and not easy to find. Perhaps you can share your thoughts on it, when it comes up in the discussion sequence, or sooner? I am not very quick at transcribing from print publications to BCML posts, but I will try to find the time to add some of Kuijkens statements, regarding his performance philosophy. In the meantime, you will ngo wrong with any of his cantata recordings on Accent, which contain all the notes.

Sidebar to Accent: no need to thank me, just release the next CD!

Everyone has their own favorite aspect of BCML. I enjoy sharing my preferences, and hearing what others are enthusiastic about. Reports of live performances are very special, and all too rare. The current ongoing discussion of preparation for a performance of BWV 34 is a new and enlightening experience, unique in my time on BCML, I believe.

Since most of us listen to the music via recordings, I find that is an important field of discussion for me, not necessarily for everyone.

I second Jeans suggestion: Brad Lehman and Julian Mincham, in particular (not to overlook others) are music professionals who have been very generous in sharing their expertise, without ever being condescending (sorry for that word, I couldnt think of a smaller one). They display what BCML (and the world) can always use more of: generosity of spirit.

Thank you, Terejia, for taking the time in a busy schedule to participate in the discussions. We have many readers, I am sure, but the group who have the time and interest to post is not large. Every voice is important, I hope we have made you feel welcome.

I am partial to the music, especially the music of the week, but as I was recently reminded, anything relevant to Bach is appropriate.

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Last update: �February 29, 2008 �16:10:10