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Recordings & Discussions of Major Conductors: A | B | C | D | E | F | G | H | I | J | K | L | M | N | O | P | Q | R | S | T | U | V | W | X | Y | Z | Discussions of Singers & Instrumentalists |
Ton Koopman & Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra & Choir
Bach Cantatas & Other Vocal Works
General Discussions - Part 4
Continue from Part 3
Ton Koopman and what should I add
Sweep Picker 2003 (Chas) wrote (August 6, 2003):
First time posting. I would like to know what are the works that any Bach Fanatic would not be caught without. Also, I would love to get into the Cantatas and Motets. Would Ton Koopman's series be a great way to start listening or who would you recommend? Please add to my list of what I currently have.
Thanks,
Choral and Vocal Music:
Mass in B Minor
Organ Music:
BWV 595 - Organ Concerto in C
BWV 593 - Organ Concerto in A minor
BWV 538 - Dorian Toccata and Fugue in D minor
BWV 542 - Fantasia and Fugue in G minor
BWV 565 - Toccata and Fugue in D minor
Keyboard Music:
English Suites
French Suites
Goldberg Variations
Italian Concerto
Partitas
Well-Tempered Clavier 1 and 2
Chamber Music:
Sonatas and Partitas for solo Violin
Six Cello Suites
Orchestral Music:
Brandenburg Concerto
Orchestral Suites
Concertos:
Three Violin Concertos
Monte Garrett wrote (August 6, 2003):
[To Chas] In the Choral and Vocal Music category, I would hasten to add both the St. Matthew and St. John Passions, as well as the Magnificat in D.
Bob Henderson wrote (August 6, 2003):
[To Chas] Its not really a matter of a clear first choice. Other factors are involved (such as price and availability).
If you want alot quickly and cheaply the Leusink and many of the Rilling cantatas are available at discount. This might also be true for certain Koopman recordings.
My choice for the new collector of the cantata cycle (given you are willing to pay full price) is that of Maasaki Suzuki and the Bach Collegium Japan. He has recorded about 40% of the existing cycle and issues new recordings at about four each year. Inspired work close to the heart of Bach. If you have the means do both. You can't have enough of this music.
Barry Murray wrote (August 6, 2003):
[To Chas] May I add a couple of suggestions.
I've not heard any of the Koopman cantata recordings, so can't offer you a comparison. I agree with the suggestion of the Suzuki cycle - very fine recordings. Another alternative is Herreweghe. I have about a dozen of his Bach discs and would highly recommend them. They are mostly on the Harmonia Mundi label, although there is a 4 CD set of cantatas and masses (BWV 233-236) on Virgin. These should all be fairly easy to find. In the vocal field, you might also like the Christmas Oratorio BWV 248. I have the Suzuki recording on Bis, which is very good. You will find extensive material on other recordings on the Bach Cantatas website.
In the field of chamber music, the sonatas for violin and harpsichord are fine works. There's a good recording of these on Naxos with Lucy Van Dael and Bob Van Asperen.
I'm sure you'll find many hours of happy listening.
Robert Sherman wrote (August 6, 2003):
[To Bob Henderson] With all due respect to Bob H., I would try Suzuki in a small dose or two to see if this is what you want before committing the big bucks there. On that I offer two thoughts:
1) Not having ever had the privilege of listening to JSB perform, nor of discussing music with him, I can't claim to know what is close to his heart. I do know what is close to mine, and that is more likely to be found with Richter or Rilling or occasionally Gardiner.
2) I have rarely found a performance of a major work that is great from beginning to end. I have never found ANY conductor to turn in consistently great performances to the extent that I would buy his next recording unheard, and be confident it would be outstanding. Ergo, I strongly recommend, by whatever means you can find, that you audition a specific recording before you buy it -- particularly if it's full price.
Chas (Sweep Picker 2003) wrote (August 17, 2003):
Thank You all for contributing to my list. Unfortunately, money plays a role on how I would collect Bach's Cantata. I have chosen to purchase the Suzuki recordings for the simple fact that they seem readily accessible compared to others complete Cantata recordings. At this time, there are 22 volumes recorded by Suzuki. I plan to purchase a volume per month. Today I purchased Volume One and I am already in my own world hearing "Christ lag in Todesbanden" (BWV 4).
There is nothing like hearing that passionate German heartfelt angst.
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (August 17, 2003):
[To Chas] I agree. The problem is that NONE of the people in the recording ARE GERMAN. They are DUTCH. If you want a good GERMAN recording, here are some Esembles and/or conductors I would recommend: Karl Richter and the Bach-Orchester and Bach-Chor München, Helmuth Rilling and the Stuttgarter Bachcollegium and Gaechinger Kantorei, the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig and Thomanerchor Leipzig (under any conductor From Karl Straube to Guenther Ramin to Kurt Thomas to the Mauersbergers to Hans-Joachim Rotzsch to those of today (including the current recording on the Web Page of the Matthaeuspassion conducted by Heinz Henning and using 2 Berlin Early Music ensembles and the Knabenchor Hannover) and the Virtuosi Saxoniae under Ludwig Güttler and the Neue Bachcollegium Leipzig under Max Pommer. Of the ones listed above, I would probably recommend either Pommer, Güttler, the ones of the Gewandhausorchester and Thomanerchor Leipzig, Straube, and Richter because of the connection to Bach and Leipzig in particular (these would be more embued with and keep with the Leipzig Bach interpretation tradition stemming to Bach himself). The reason I add Richter in there was that he received (for the most part) all of his training at the Thomaskirche and/or under people that had been or were at the time Thomaskantoren or associated in one way or the other with the Thomaskirche zu Leipzig.
René de Cocq wrote (August 20, 2003):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.] What's wrong with being Dutch?!...
David Glenn Lebut JR. wrote (August 21, 2003):
[To René de Cocq] Nothing wrong with being Dutch. My point was more in respect to them being out of the "tradition" loop, as I think MANY ensembles that perform Bach works are. Not that their interpretations aren't good, but for those (like me) who REALLY seek more "close to home" interpretations, one should go to the source, so to speak. For me, that means in this case German performers and more specifically those with a connection to Leipzig. The problem with Dutch (or English for that matter) is that there is too strong a French influence. i would have the same problem with Germans trying to sing English works.
Johan van Veen wrote (August 21, 2003):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.] I am very sensitive myself in regard to pronunciation and knowledge of the language and the culture of which that language is an expression. But to simply say that only Germans - in particular those from Leipzig - know how to perform Bach is a little shortsighted.
I generally don't like English performers in Bach, but: the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It is always possible there are exceptions. One that comes to my mind is the English tenor Charles Daniels, whom I heard as Evangelist in Bach's St Matthew Passion (BWV 244). He gave a brilliant performance, in perfect German. I think he is also very good in Schütz' Weihnachtshistorie (the recording by the Gabrieli Consort & Players).
In general I would say that Dutch singers who specialise in singing baroque music are pretty good in German. I have never heard any complaint about the German of the likes of Max van Egmond or Harry van der Kamp. In fact I believe that many musicians in the early music scene in the Netherlands are much more at home in German music than most other kinds of music. I can't understand why you see any French influence here. In fact, the figureheads of the Dutch early music scene - Leonhardt, Bijlsma, Brüggen, Van Egmond, Van der Kamp and many more - have perhaps performed less French music than Italian, German or English music.
And I could mention some German performers - even scalled 'HIP' performers - who are far less convincing in Bach than the best of the Dutch.
To prevent any misunderstanding: I am not biased. I am pretty critical about the Dutch recording of Bach's cantatas by Leusink et al. I just would like to contradict opinions which don't have any basis in the facts, IMO.
Arjen van Gijssell wrote (August 21, 2003):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.] Can't understand a word from what you're saying. The Dutch language is very close to the German language, i.e. we're part of the same language family. French is part of another European language group. The Dutch are on average good performers of German music, also because they have a longstanding tradition on performaning Bach. German conductors praise our pronunciation, and there is almost always somebody in the choir who knows how to pronounce eventual difficult things, being a native speaker or close to someone who is; that happens when you're neigbour country of Germany. The Dutch SMP tradition is very old and lively, I dare to say more than in Germany itself.
So nothing French about us, especially not in pronunciation!
I gather that you're from the States? We have a joke that Americans believe that Holland is the capital city of Kopenhaguen. Honni soit qui mal y pense.
Valter Lellis Siqueira wrote (August 22, 2003):
[To Arjen van Gijssell] If some people object Dutch people doing German music, what are they going to say about the Bach produced by the Japanese nowadays (which I personally find fantastic)? They should also hear our performances of Bach and other European composers in São Paulo and other Brazilian cities. Lots of European conductors have praised them. Although the Portuguese language is miles away from German we do sing idiomatically in it and in other languages! Finally, I'd like to say that I do enjoy Ton Koopman's performances of Bach's Cantatas and other works. And, by the way, he uses the lute, which in N. Harnoncourt's books is mentioned as an obligatory part of the basso continuo in Baroque music since it was used in those days.
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (August 22, 2003):
[To Johan van Veen] You missed my point. My point was that (at least for me) if one wants to find AUTHENTIC, AUTHORITATIVE performances of a work, one should go straight to the source. I have VERY GREAT misgivings about Rilling's, Klemperer's, and other conductors' (EVEN GERMAN) insterpretations of Bach because they are REMOVED from the Leipzig connection. That is why I DO like Richter (even though his recordings were with Muenchen ensembles), because he received his training primarily in Leipzig. I like Rilling's use of Harpsichord in the Continuo, but I would NOT recommend ANY of his recordings (with the above-mentioned exception). If one is to REALLY get a sense of what Bach is about, one should look for recordings of his works by ensembles and/or performers associated in one way or another with Leipzig or any place that Bach worked at. Since none of his progeny are alive, that is the next best thing we have to go by.
As to the other part, again not to offend people, but there IS a lot of the French intonation in the Dutch voice (as in the English). The purity of the German word is (I feel) corrupted by the impurity of the voicing. The same could be said if someone was trying to play a Bach organ piece on a period instrument. The impurity of modern voicing on an organ (I find) takes away to some degree from the emotional expression of the work. At the same time, to ALWAYS play Bach's organ works on Silbermann organs is NOT well either. Bach ONLY came to support the Silbermann IN THE 1730s-1750. He NEVER EVEN HEARD ONE BEFORE THEN. He held a LIFE-LONG support for the organ builders of Hamburg and Luebeck, yet NO ONE has EVER recorded on one of THEIR instruments (i.e., a Schnitger organ, etc.). The closest I have ever heard of was Diane Bish's program in the Haarlem Bavokerk on the Mueller organ. Also NO ONE has ever recorded ANY Bach organ work on the organ at the Georgenkirche zu Eisenach or (with a VERY few possible exceptions) ANYWHERE ELSE Bach worked in, grew up in, or studied in. But this is all beside the point. Suffice it to say that I have NO OBJECTIONS TO Dutch performers as performers and people, but the purity (German is a PURE language, especially in the region of Eastern Germany [the region of Bach and Luther and possibly my ancestors]) is not there. Hochdeutsch is a very fluid, pure, expressive language, and when you introduce other elements into it (such as idiomatic issues, phonetic issues, etc.), the expressiveness of the language and the meaning of the words is hampered. In fact, if one was to try a literal translation of Bach's words into Dutch or even English, it is NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE, since the language has changed since the words were written, and the version used (a more poetic version) is more difficult to translate literally.
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (August 22, 2003):
[To Arjen van Gijssell] It is PART OF the Germanic Family, but (like English) it is NOT pure. If one looks at the history of the Dutch language and culture, one would see that the Spaniards and French have also penetrated into it. The Belgians ARE NOT THE ONLY PART OF THE NETHERLANDS to have had French-German mingling. The whole of Brabant has had a LONG history of French AND German intermixing, as much as English and German intermixing. I think it is interesting that, after all, the Dutch word for Church (Kerk) and the Gaelic word for Church (Kirk) ARE THE SAME except for 1 letter. The Eastern regions of Germany, however, except for a VERY FEW instances of Slavic invasion (all of which were repulsed with not much instances of intermingling) are more pure in language and vocalization. Take, for instance, the vocalization of the letters. In German the long "A" sound is written thus: e or ae. In Dutch, it is written thus: ee. In German, the "oy" sound is written thus: eu or aeu. In Dutch, it is written thus: uy or oe. In German, the "u" sound is written thus: ue or u or oe. In Dutch, it is written thus: oo. The ONLY case I know of where German and Dutch agree is in the word Haar or Staat (and this I think in order to differentiate words,especially in the case of Staat "state" and Stadt "City"). The unyielding duplication of vowels (or vowel-consonant pairs such as in Rembrandt's last name: van Rijn) is NOT present in PURE German (with the above-mentioned exception). If one wanted to find a PURELY Germanic language, one needs go to either Eastern German or Scandinavia (especially Denmark, Iceland, or Norway). These were areas NOT affected by the Romans OR other invaders. That is why I did NOT include most of Western and all of Southern Germany. The ONLY impact Latin had on the above-mentioned region is in music and in the "ae" sound. That (I believe) is why when Martin Luther looked for a language to use for his translation of the Bible he used the Hochdeutsch language he was reared in.
Another point is that if one listens closely to the performance, one could tell that it is NOT their native tongue. English performances have the same problem. Here is a case in point: I have a recording of the Markuspassion formerly believed to be written by Reinhard Keiser but now believed to be written by Nikolaus Bruhns' brother, Friedrich Nikolaus Bruhns. It was recorded (I don't know the name of the ensembles) in Switzerland by Swiss ensembles. One could tell that it was not performed by German ensembles because the inflection, the vocalization, and the sound in general was NOT like a German sound. It sounded like the singers were singing through their noses, especially the one that sang the role of Jesus. There was a very nasal tone in his singing. The same case when English-speaking ensembles perform Bach's works. And (I feel) the same could be said about Koopman's performance of BWV 247 and BWV 248 (at least - I haven't heard his recordings of the other Vocal works of Bach).
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (August 22, 2003):
[To Valter Lellis Siqueira] Generally, it is a matter of taste. To me, though, I find that if one is looking for AUTHORITATIVE, AUTHENTIC performances (wch are the main things nowadays) one should look North of the Alps and East of the Rhine. That is why I mentioned the fact that for the above-mentioned types of performances one should look to German ensembles. I also mentioned NOT ALL German ensembles and/or performers, but those with one or another connection with Leipzig. After all that is where Bach spent a bulk of his life (1723-1750), that is where he tuaght MOST of his students, that is where the MAJORITY of his Vocal works were written, that is where the MAJORITY of Bach Scholarship has been seated since his move there, that is from whence the "Bach tradition" originated (initially by his sons and students).
Neil Halliday wrote (August 22, 2003):
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote: "I like Rilling's use of Harpsichord in the Continuo, but I would NOT recommend ANY of his recordings..."
I understand you are addressing issues of 'authority' and 'authenticity' in your post; however, as one who often immensely enjoys Bach's music played on modern instruments (without the idiosynchracies that sometimes beset 'authentic' performances), I think it needs to be said that the Rilling cantata cycle - the only complete cycle on (mostly) modern instruments - is invaluable, at least in my estimation.
Johan van Veen wrote (August 22, 2003):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.] To me there seems to be no evidence whatsoever that performers from the Leipzig area - or having received their musical education there - are better suited to perform Bach than others. I really don't see what exactly you are looking for.
Yes, I know that Germans around Leipzig have a particular accent - is that what you are looking for? Should Bach's texts be pronounced that way and should Schubert's Lieder be pronounced with a Viennese accent?
If that is the case, then the question is what Leipzig German did sound like in Bach's time. And would every singer speak - or even be able to speak - German that way? As far as the trebles is concerned: probably yes, since most of them will have come from the same region. But the adults? Possible, but unlikely. They came from everywhere - some of Bach's pupils were singing in the Thomaskirche, but if they have come to Leipzig in their late teens it seems rather unlikely that they will have picked up the Leipzig accent.
But maybe this is not what you mean. But I ca't figure out what special Leipzig aspect you are looking for. You have to be a little more specific. You write at length about the similarities and dissimilarities between German and Dutch - which are partly incorrect or meaningless - without proving that these things have a negative influence on the way Bach's music is performed.
And coming from the same region as the composer generally doesn't guarantee for an "authentic" performance. Rinaldo Alessandrini once told that when he started his group Concerto Italiano he had to teach his Italian singers to speak proper Italian before performing Monteverdi.
You seem to forget that history can change things. There have been organists in the 19th century who claimed to know exactly how to perform Bach's organ music, because they were the pupil of a pupil of a pupil of Bach. Now we know that there is no such a thing as an 'unbroken tradition'. These organists were way off the mark as far as the interpretation of Bach's music is concerned.
Your claim has yet to be proven.
Arjen van Gijssell wrote (August 22, 2003):
[To Johan van Veen] I even find David's reasoning somewhat disturbing. Talking about "pure" German, proclaiming that only people from Leipzig can really get closest to Bach, sounds like the "Blut und Bodem" theory which I thought we've got past.
Bob Henderson wrote (August 22, 2003):
There is a demand for reduction in David's argument which can never be satisfied. Even if his theory be admitted. What I seek is a certain purity of spirit, not purity of place, language or nation. Last spring I attended a concert in Boston in which the SMP was presented by a Japanese ensemble in a Catholic church. The soloists were Dutch, English and German and Japanese. May we all experience again and again such authenticity of spirit!
Uri Golomb wrote (August 23, 2003):
Tradition
< David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote: You missed my point. My point was that (at least for me) if one wants to find AUTHENTIC, AUTHORITATIVE performances of a work, one should go straight to the source. I have VERY GREAT misgivings about Rilling's, Klemperer's, and other conductors' (EVEN GERMAN) insterpretations of Bach because they are REMOVED from the Leipzig connection. That is why I DO like Richter (even though his recordings were with Muenchen ensembles), because he received his training primarily in Leipzig. >
Adding to Johan's already-expressed reservations about this claim, I would say that two things need to be proven in order for this claim to stand:
1. In general, you have to prove that a continuous tradition generally leads to the preservation of performative style. This contention becomes less and less likely as time goes by. Even if you have a continuous tradition of performance going straight from the composer in an unbroken lineage to the present day (the composer taught x, who taught y, etc.), that doesn't mean that the great-great-great-grand-pupils of the Master will be any closer to him than people from other traditions. After 200 years, with each generation introducing changes, an unbroken lineage guarantees nothing. It's just as possible that someone who has no biographical connection with the composer, but who has studied the historical sources in detail, will come up with a more authoritative performance than a great-great-grand-pupil who takes tradition on trust, assuming that his "direct link" absolves of the need to re-examine things.
2. In the case of Leipzig, you have to prove that there is an unbroken tradition. Does Leipzig's Bach tradition trace back to Bach, or to Mendelssohn? When Mendelssohn performed the St. Matthew Passion in Leipzig, it was the first performance of that work in Leipzig in over a century (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I'll have to inquire this in greater detail, but AFAIK most (though not all) of Bach's vocal music was not performed in Leipzig after his death; and even if it was, it was not on a regular basis.
Coming back to the first point: I've listened to many recordings by Thomaskantors Günther Ramin, Kurt Thomas, Erhard Mauersberger (and his brother, the Dresden Kreuzkantor Rudolf Mauersberger -- another mentor of Karl Richter's), Hans-Joachim Rotzsch and Georg Christoph Biller. They do not represent a single style. Rotzsch sang, as a tenor, under his three predecessors; yet in many of his recordings he departs quite radically from the traditions he acuiqred from them (insofar as they resembled each other). And Karl Richter also developed his own approach, quite different in several important respects from his mentors' (though there are also distinct similarities).
If Rotzsch was already very different from Mauersberger (his immediate predecessor), what makes you -- or anyone -- think that Ramin's approach would bear a distinct similarity to Bach's, or even Mendelssohn's? If a significant change can occur within a decade, how many more changes can occur in a one, two or three centuries!
It's not entirely impossible that the Bach's instutitional successors have preserved something of his performance style; but I find it highly unlikely. If anyone claims that they have, the claim has to be proven. It cannot be taken on faith or trust; it is not a self-evident truth. Students do not always resemble their teachers and mentors; sometimes, indeed, they deliberately forge their own independent identity, almost making a point of sounding different from their teachers. People change themselves -- compare Rilling's 1970s recordings with his 1990s recordings. Or Harnoncourt's 1968 Mass and 1971 SMP with his 1986 Mass and 2000 SMP. And culture in general changes. All this should be kept in mind.
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (August 23, 2003):
[To Johan van Veen] Because with Leipzig, the tradition starting with Bach has a practically unbroken chain all the down to today.
Johan van Veen wrote (August 23, 2003):
[David Glenn Lebut Jr.] Any evidence for that?
David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (August 23, 2003):
[To Johan van Veen] Bach-his pupils-their pupils-etc. There is a LONG, UNINTERRUPTED chain there. And I am not just talking of Thomaskantors, either. Organists as well have the same situation. And besides, the ones that DID leave Leipzig brought the Leipzig traditions with them (i.e., the students [such as K.P.E. Bach and Kirnberger] that went to Berlin or to Hamburg) and their students in turn took their ideas all over the world (for instance, one of Emmanuel Bach's students [I don't remember his EXACT name] was the teacher of Franck and later of Widor). So it all goes back to Leipzig and covers MANY generations.
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