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Recordings & Discussions of Major Conductors: A | B | C | D | E | F | G | H | I | J | K | L | M | N | O | P | Q | R | S | T | U | V | W | X | Y | Z | Discussions of Singers & Instrumentalists |
Ton Koopman & Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra & Choir
Bach Cantatas & Other Vocal Works
General Discussions - Part 2
Continue from Part 1
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Riccardo Nughes wrote (February 7, 2002):
http://www.andante.com/magazine/article.cfm?id=15907
Warner Bros stops Koopman's Cantatas cycle.
Charles Francis wrote (February 7, 2002):
[To Riccardo Nughes] Does this mean we can expect to see some 'cut-out' bargains at Berkshire in the near future?
Philip Peters wrote (February 7, 2002):
AAAAARGGG! There are only three complete recodings of the cantatas available and at Suzukui's pace one may well wonder if he will ever finish his. Whatever opinion one may have about the Koopman cycle I feel that discontinuing it is irresponsible. So what else is new?
Thomas Boyce wrote (February 7, 2002):
Good morning from New York. A nice and gloomy day, which can only mean one thing: time for Bach's music. And plenty of it, as all of the bosses are in Philadelphia for a meeting. :)
Anyway, I read an article at Andante dot com: "Classical CDs are Dead, Long Live Classical CDs."
Phooey.
Since the compact disc came on the market, or should I say 1990, when I bought my first CD player, my classical music-spending has increased three-fold.
And since I joined this list and the Cantatas list, that spending has doubled. Am I speaking for everyone here?
A few years after I read a bunch of doom-and-gloom articles about how no one reads anymore, two Barnes & Noble Superstores were put up in my neighborhood (East 86th Street, Manhattan). I guess they're still reading.
Put out a good product and people will buy it.
Thomas Braatz wrote (February 7, 2002):
The Koopman Bach cantata cycle --
It's somewhat like hearing about a relative, who died because nobody could afford to support him.
So Warner Classics 'indulged in a vanity project' which will now be replaced by more Harnoncourt recordings, among other things?!!
The prevailing attitude is: "We did that already. We're competing against ourselves by continuing with Koopman. Let's milk as much as we can from the already existing flagship Harnoncourt cantata series by increasing the advertising costs necessary to sell this project effectively so as to make more people believe that this is the only legitimate, authentic recording of the Bach cantatas on the market."
Riccardo Nughes wrote (February 7, 2002):
< Thomas Braatz wrote: So Warner Classics 'indulged in a vanity project' which will now be replaced by more Harnoncourt recordings, among other things?!! >
Just in november 2001 many new recordings from N.Harnoncourt were planned :
- Dvorak,Slavonic Dances;
- Bartok, Orchestral Works;
- Beethoven, 5 piano concertos (featuring P.L.Aimard);
- Berg, Violin Concerto (featuring G.Kremer);
- Smetana, Ma Vlast;
- Bruckner, Symphony n°9;
- Haydn, Orlando Paladino (featuring Cecilia Bartoli).
2 months after : "....Among upcoming projects are a planned Má vlast and a Bruckner Ninth Symphony, both with Harnoncourt and the Vienna Philharmonic, as well as other projects that Cosgrove plans to discuss with the Austrian maestro in March...." (where to discuss probably means to reduce, if not to cancel...).
So WB curtail seems to be damaging even Harnoncourt, for the happiness of someone.
< The prevailing attitude is: "We did that already. We're competing against ourselves by continuing with Koopman. Let's milk as much as we can from the already existing flagship Harnoncourt cantata series by increasing the advertising costs necessary to sell this project effectively so as to make more people believe that this is the only legitimate, authentic recording of the Bach cantatas on the market." >
This is paranoia. Actually in the WB catalogue there are Bach Cantatas from F.Werner, J.E.Gardiner and K.Richter. Using this kind of news for drab polemics is infamous. I know people fired from European WB, they don't blame for that Harnoncourt.Are they fools?
Johan van Veen wrote (February 7, 2002):
[To Riccardo Nughes] Some people use everything to support their distaste for artists they don't like. The decision taken by Warner Classics has nothing to do with protecting Harnoncourt. As you rightly pointed out, even his position isn't quite safe. I think the latest issue of The Gramophone wrote the same. The article on andante shows that other artists are in danger as well. Some already got the sack. It's just shortsighted stupidity of Warner Classics - and other companies which have done or are doing comparable things. They show their true faces and reveal what many people already knew: they don't care about music, only about money. If they don't earn it with classical music, then they turn to garbage like cross-over.
Charles Francis wrote (February 7, 2002):
[To Riccardo Nughes] One can only hope that the termination of the Gardiner/Koopman cycles will create an opportunity for a Rifkin/OVPP complete edition.
Richard Grant wrote (February 7, 2002):
[To Thomas Braatz] More Harnoncourt, Yummy!!! Now, Tom are you really competent to state as fact the reasons and marketing strategy of Warner Bros. in this? Or is it like my belief about your reasons for disliking Harnoncourt so: more a reflection of my reaction to your position than an honest fair-minded assessment of it? Warners is after all - or should I say before all - a business and not a conservatory library or museum. I think we should be grateful to them for a very very high quality series, superbly produced and well marketed. And it did so when other producers with longer standing traditions in the field of classical music didn't dare toi take the chance.
Richard Grant wrote (February 7, 2002):
[To Johan van Veen] Is crossover"garbage" by nature or just because you, like me, don't like it?
Donald Satz wrote (February 7, 2002):
[To Charles Francis] What bothers me about the termination of Koopman's cycle, and it applies to most other areas of commerce as well, is the lack of loyalty and goodwill these corporations display. It may well be financially advantageous to junk the cycle, but Warner has had many customers who acquired each volume to date. We are essentially being told - "Too bad for you, move on to something else".
Goodwill sometimes involves taking a short-run loss in order to have further gains in the long-run. Our corporations don't give much thought these days to the horizon.
Richard Grant wrote (February 7, 2002):
[To Donald Satz] Goodwill might involve taking a loss but I'm afraid business doesn't. I feel awful at the loss of this series which I was just beginning to collect. But lets place the blame in this case where it belongs, on good old capitalism, if indeed "blame" is to be placed anywhere in matters like this.
Donald Satz wrote (February 7, 2002):
[To Richard Grant] I don't see any point in attaching blame; it would be a waste of energy and time. The way I look at it is that although capitalism junks the project, it was capitalism that created it in the first place.
Richard Grant wrote (February 7, 2002):
[To Donald Satz] Amen
Rev. Robert A. Lawson wrote (February 8, 2002):
[To Donald Satz] I agree. This is very disappointing!
Rev. Robert A. Lawson wrote (February 8, 2002):
Do any of you think there is any chance that Koopman will be able to finish
his project through another, perhaps smaller, label?
Johan van Veen wrote (February 8, 2002):
[To Rev. Robert A. Lawson] Considering all thge musicological research which has taken place for this cycle I can't believe that he will just accept this decision and go on with things. And if a company has cancelled an important project is it possible to go on with other recordings as if nothing has happened? So I could well imagine Koopman going to another label altogether. But how much choice is there?
Kirk McElhearn wrote (February 8, 2002):
[To Rev. Robert A. Lawson] This is always possible. Koopman had an exclusive contract with Warner, which probably ended when they decided not to finish the cantatas. Perhaps he will take his worelsewhere; perhaps he will stay with them to record other things.
Ludwig wrote (February 8, 2002):
I seems to be that Warner has an anti-Bach attitude based on behavior of the past 30 years. They did not let the complete Harnoncourt Das Katatenwerke sell out and instead took it off the shelves in the United State and threw what had not sold into the public trash heap. That left collectors as myself with incomplete sets. They then compounded the problem by re-issuing the set in parts so expensive that the average collector had to decide either to buy, go into debt or eat that week.
I am not surprized that they have cancelled but feel they need to realize that profits from large sets do come but are slow in doing so when they price things so expensively that one must purchase one item at a time if one does not not wish to go into debt. Putting together large sets of complete works is like planting a fine vineyard that will produce very fine wine. One must wait along time to see the results and Warner does not seem to have the patience to do this.
Peter Bright wrote (February 8, 2002):
[To Ludwig] I cannot agree more with Ludwig's post. Unfortunately, the short-termism is bound to continue, and perhaps get worse. One only has to look at the way pop and rock music is marketed - except for very few artists, there is an early push, a few songs storm up the charts and the band then disappears. For some reason I am reminded of a case in the early 1980s when Neil Young was sued by his own record company for not sounding like Neil Young! (I forget whether it was Warner or Geffen that was responsible). These attitudes do not sit comfortably with the marketing of great works of art (whether in classical or popular art, they can take a very long time before they are recognised as such). As far as rock music goes, it seems that an increasing number of serious artists are fighting against the control freakery of their labels - some, such as Bob Dylan seem to have full control again over their output. Once labels show flexibility and pass some of the responsibility on to the artists, the results are usually positive. When we look at classical players and conductors of the stature of Koopman, Harnoncourt or Gardiner, all of whom have proved there worth but are still affected by stupid, short-term driven decisions, it makes one despair about the future. I'm afraid that we can look forward to an increasing pasteurisation and funnelling of classical musical taste.
Dick Wursten wrote (February 8, 2002):
Just a silly question:
Did Koopman reach the high level (set the standard for the next century), which he was expected (and trumpetted, merchandized) to reach when the series were started?
Quality always being the decisive factor whether a recording will last longer than - say - 10 years. I can't really judge. I only heard a few and only once I was touched by the beautiful sound he created. All the other times (and on other levels) I was disappointed... as I was about the accompaning three books, the world of the bach-cantatas.
Johan van Veen wrote (February 8, 2002):
[To Dick Wursten] Basically I agree as far as the quality of Koopman's interpretation is concerned. No, I don't think his project is really good. But I didn't expect that much from him, because I think in many ways he is not the most profound interpreter anyway.
I would be able to understand that his project was cancelled with the argument of a lack of quality, but then it should have happened long before. The simple fact that a project like this is cancelled because it isn't giving the company enough profit on the short term is very worrying and also revealing as far as the real motives of the company - this and others as well - are concerned. And it is also worrying regarding other - present and future - long-term projects.
Remember that DG cancelled the plans to record the Bach-tour of Gardiner. And two attempts to record all Haydn's symphonies have been cancelled before they were finished. It doesn't look good at all.
Piotr Jaworski wrote (February 8, 2002):
[To Peter Bright] One thing comes to my mind, however not 100% relevant... During the so-called "martial law" in Poland in 1982-1983 many Poles instead of watching evening news in the 'regime TV' (heavily censored, full of lies and misinformation) were putting their TV-sets in the ... windows! The same happened to the regime-owned newspapers and magazines etc., etc. We were able to create quite unique "alternative society".
I was not a big fan of the Koopman cycle (decided to spend my money on Suzuki's), but am equally horrified by the developments in the Warner as most of us ... and I'm horrified by the possible disappearance of Opus 111 due to the idiotic policy of NAIVE...., I can only imagine the "new attitude" to the Early Music of Sony Classical, Deutsche Grammophon etc., etc.
So, maybe we should not support those companies with our money any more?
If they care about us that much, why not to respond with a really "decent payback"? Let them make those never-ending cross-overs, McCartney oratorios, Billy Joel passions or even Britney Spears cantatas series. OK, but to finance that? No, thanks. I'll stay with Hyperion, BIS, Chandos, Metronome, Signum, Glossa, Symphonia ..... the list is still long enough. And I'm quite sure that one of them will definitely take care about all "Koopmans".
Charles Francis wrote (Bebruary 8, 2002):
[To Piotr Jaworski] Often my CD acquisitions are from little-known regional labels. Typically, the performances are more innovative than those of the major labels which seem to promote a few 'stars' and a safe product. A problem is that the successful 'independents' are acquired by the few big fish and diversity is lost. But, hopefully this creates a niche for a new pioneer.
Michael Grover wrote (February 8, 2002):
[To Piotr Jaworski] For the record, I really like Paul McCartney's Liverpool Oratorio. Especially his little Spanish ditty, "Tres Conejos". (Not sure I spelled that right.) (And NO, I am not kidding - I really do like it.)
Here is a very interesting article from andante.com, a follow up to Norman Lebrecht's rants about the state of the classical music recording industry:
http://www.andante.com/magazine/article.cfm?id=13701
I especially like the concluding paragraph:
"Maybe classical music will turn out to be a 21st-century version of the Grateful Dead, that durable counterculture rock group that was one of the world's largest concert draws for years, even decades, but couldn't sell any records - and so, for years at a time, didn't make them. In an interview a few years ago, Los Angeles Philharmonic music director Esa-Pekka Salonen talked about how, in Southern California, classical music is the counterculture. He rather likes that idea. Perhaps that's how we'll be – and listening all the more intently at concerts because we know there'll be no instant replay."
I'm really not sure how it will all end, and the recent fate of Koopman's and Gardiner's cantata cycles is certainly regrettable, but I do know this: We have been collectively absolutely spoiled rotten. Right now, at this moment, we have more choice in the music that we want to listen to, and it is more easily available to us, than to any other people in the history of the world. There is only one good classical record store within a two hour radius of where I live (Streetside Records in St. Louis), but every time I go there, I am amazed at the dozens and hundreds of new and old recordings that I have never seen or heard before. I guess I'm saying we should count our blessings.
We should probably also go to more concerts. And take a friend. Or your children. :) My eight year old son likes listening to *NSync, but he also likes listening to harpsichord. Who am I to argue? I grew up alternating between Beethoven and Beatles.
Piotr Jaworski wrote (February 8, 2002):
[To Michael Grover] For the record - those were only "innocent examples". And I hope that none is actually offended. I only wanted to describe certain trends within the "Big Record Companies". I'm not thrashing the other music - rock, punk, alternative, jazz etc., etc.
I grew up with Sex Pistols, The Clash, King Crimson, Pink Floyd ...... as much as with Vivaldi, Beethoven, Chopin or Haydn... And eternally - Hats Off to Sir McCartney!!!
Everywhere - you're right! No need to argue then.
Dave Harman wrote (February 9, 2002):
< Ludwig wrote: I seems to be that Warner has an anti-Bach attitude based on behavior of the past 30 years. >
Whatever their attitude, it really hurts to collect Vols 1 - 11 and then have the bottom drop out of the project. Although I do read good reviews on the Suzuki/BIS set, I'm resigned to having to buy duplicates.
Koopman's web site announced Vol 12 was released but so far it hasn't surfaced.
Perhaps our Don Satz could do some reviews of the Bach Cantatas.
Kirk McElhearn wrote (February 9, 2002):
[To Dave Harman] It looks like you are not a member of the Bach Cantatas mailing list, where we discuss nothing but different recordings of the cantatas.
Go here to find out more:
http://www.mcelhearn.com/bach.html
Joost wrote (February 10, 2002):
Today I received the subscription form for next season's four concerts in Ton Koopman's Bachcantata series. So at least this part of his project will be continued.
Charlie Ervin McCarn wrote (February 11, 2002):
< Warner Bros stops Koopman's Cantatas cycle. >
Outrageous!
Cantatas Cut
Koopman’s Bach Cantata Cycle
Koopman’s Petition
Petition to Warner against their decision to discontinue Koopman's project of recording the complete Bach Cantatas
Ton Koopman
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