Cantata BWV 198 - Discussions

Cantata BWV 198
Laß, Fürstin, laß noch einen Strahl
Discussions - Part 2

Continue from Part 1

Discussions in the Week of April 13, 2008

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 11, 2008):
Introduction to BWV 198 Laß, Fürstin, laß einen Strahl!

BWV 198 Laß, Fürstin, laß einen Strahl! (Let Princess, One more Ray)

BWV 198 page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV198.htm

BWV 198 discussion page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV198-D.htm

Written as a memorial to the Electoress Christiane Eberhandine who died April 5, 1727, an observance in her honor was held Friday October 15, 1727. According to scholars, Bach was commissioned to prepare this work, and it was only completed two days before the performance as evidenced by the autographed score. For a more detailed history of the issue of Bach's commission see Dürr, page 865.

The virtue of the queen is highly praised in this composition, with the goal that her subjects not forget the very special ways of this mother of theirs. Dürr mentions that the poetic design of this work demands a different musical treatment than one would find when madrigalian poetry is used. This is an ode, or strophic poem form. As some controversy prevailed over how the text might be set, Bach divided the nine strophes, each of eight lines into movements creating the following pattern:

Mvt. 1. Chorus SATB, fl I, II, oboe d'amore I, II, strings, viola da gamba I, II, lute I, II, Basso Continuo
Mvt. 2. Recitative – Soprano, Strings, BC
Mvt. 3. Aria – Soprano, Strings, BC
Mvt. 4. Recitative – Alto, woodwinds, strings, viola da gamba I and II, lute I and II
Mvt. 5. Aria – Alto, viola da gamba I and II, lute I and II (fn. Lutes might have played the bass line)
Mvt. 6. Recitative – Tenor, oboe d'amore I, II, BC
Mvt. 7. Chorus (scoring as in Mvt. 1)
Mvt. 8. Aria – Tenor, fl I, oboe d'amore I, violin I, II, viola da gamba I, II, lute I, II, BC
Mvt. 9. Recitative – Bass, fl I, II, oboe I, II, BC
Arioso – Bass
Recitative – Bass
Mvt. 10. Chorus (Scoring as in Mvt. 1)

Malcomb Boyd, Oxford Composer Companions, p. 482 states that Bach did not observe the librettist's (Gottsched's) original form when he put this work together, something Boyd thinks showed a lack of respect for the poet's work and reputation.

He also mentioned that Bach chose an unusual scoring in terms of instruments and that some parts are missing. The OCC article is interesting for someone seeking more detail on this work.

Due to the length and complexity of this work, I am going to take the liberty of quoting Dürr at length.

"Bach's setting requires an exceptionally abundant instrumental ensemble: the woodwind is represented by two each of travers flutes and oboes d'amore. The strings are supplemented by two violas da gamba, and the continuo by two lutes. In addition, if we are to believe the chronicler Sicul, the continuo part was realized not just by organ but also by harpsichord, from which Bach himself directed the performance. The beginning, middle and end of the work are each marked by a chorus in which the entire instrumental ensemble participates. Each of these choruses represents a different musical principle. The opening chorus is governed by the principle of the concerto, or more specifically the group-concerto, for each instrumental group—flutes, oboes, upper strings, gambas—come to the fore in alternation. The choral writing, broken up figuratively is woven into this concertante instrumental texture. The over-all form is bipartite, A, A-prime, in which the four-line text is delivered complete within each half. The second chorus, Mvt. 7, represents the principle of fugue. Again, it is designed in two halves, (divided by a thematic orchestral episode), each of which consists of a fugal exposition plus a looser choral postlude. Finally, the concluding chorus represents the principles of song and dance. It is a choral aria, whose partly obbligato instruments at times approach an antiphonal concertante style, though without concealing the overall dance-song effect. The structure is easily recognized as binary dance form with repeats, framed by ritornellos, and with gigue-like melodic writing. It is worth pointing out the repeated choral unison in the B section. Introduced by the words, "You poets, write! we could read it so that, it lays special emphasis on the following quotation from the imaginary poets' writings: She has been virtue's property, her subjects' delight and glory, and prize of queens."

For an exploration of the arias and remaining movements see Dürr, p. 867. I am going to leave this part to the research of the individual because I want to spend a little time isolating the textual elements.

At the outset the text tells of many tears surrounding her memorial. The numbness of grief is indescribable, and felt by persons throughout every class level in the community. Her death brought about the silencing of strings of inner joy, and I could not read these words without thinking about the inner loss many feel even today over Princess Diana, whose sons recently held a musical memorial in her honor. The love of a leader, and a woman of great virtue must have truly hit the community hard. Traditionally, I have heard, in European countries that when a dignitary dies bells of a cathedral and churches are rung, and in this poem the whole European world is said to be affected. Admiration for her bravery in death is expressed, and her willingness to meet her Creator is applauded. As the queen had chosen to retain her Lutheran faith, rather than become a Roman Catholic, she is also praised as a protector of the faith…an interesting element in this case.

Imagery of heaven as a place free of the lowly world of pain and as a jeweled haven is poetically portrayed to be an appropriate place for the queen now. A robe of pearl representing purity is said to be her new covering, while on earth in many regions survivors will wear (implied - black) mourning dress. Thus, poets are admonished to write of her and praise her virtue.

The score is massive, in both our online version and the BGA, but for those wishing to pursue the details using the above quoted material as a guideline might be helpful.

In past weeks I have requested the help and sharing of many on the list, and your responses have been informative and generous. It seems in my good intent to make sure everyone was adequately appreciated for his/her contributions I have been clogging the email boxes a bit by saying thank you so often. So in this final coming week of my hosting time, I will say thank you in advance to all who contribute to the discussions ahead. Hosting the discussions has been a challenge and a pleasure and an experience to grow from in the future. Special thanks to Aryeh for providing this grand opportunity.

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 12, 2008):
Jean Laaninen wrote:
>In past weeks I have requested the help and sharing of many on the list, and your responses have been informative and generous. It seems in my good intent to make sure everyone was adequately appreciated for his/her contributions I have been clogging the email boxes a bit by saying thank you so often. So in this final coming week of my hosting time, I will say thank you in advance to all who contribute to the discussions ahead. Hosting the discussions has been a challenge and a pleasure and an experience to grow from in the future. Special thanks to Aryeh for providing this grand opportunity.<
Ten weeks have passed already? How time flies when I am having fun, and someone else is doing the heavy work.

I found the courtesy of acknowledgements quite a charming (ancivilizing?) touch. Many of us, at one time or another, have sent posts and seen no mail at all for a day or two. We are left to wonder: broken web site, shocked readers, worst of all (and most likely), sheer indifference? The details of the <thank yous> can be worked out. In general, a nice idea.

Yoel has noted from time to time that there are many readers, but a much smaller group of active participants, on classical music lists. We are well advised to learn to tolerate each other. An estimate that 1% (one percent) of the general population might know what a Bach Cantata is, or even who Bach was, could be way too high.

I would guess that if we review the past ten weeks, the breadth of participation has been unusually high, perhaps a record. I would also guess that Jean will take that as an indication of a personal objective accomplished, and well she should.

There are many details which indicate how much effort Jean put into preparing her introductions. Others of us who take on the task (I speak mainly for myself) do not have the time, skills, or resources to do quite so much. I found her comments on the scores especially helpful. It is one of the benefits of BCW that the weekly introductions have lasting value in the archives, in addition to providing stimulus for the weekly discussion.

Thanks, Jean. Time to take a deep breath, relax, and recognize that your work was recognized and appreciated. And keep writing!

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 12, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski] Thank you (here I go again saying thank you) Ed. You were an inspiration to me before I began with so many details on your cantatas and your diligence staying on task.

I agree with you and Yoel. With few who write, we need to get along, and even appreciate each other more. Who would I have to discuss these matters with if I didn't know people on the list? Only a few folks who are often so busy that a chat is possible only from time to time. So I view the list group as very special friends, indeed.

After I mailed my final introduction I asked my husband to take me out for a late lunch/early dinner to celebrate. It takes some endurance to do this work, but I also hope that some who have never written before will enter into the task, adding to our knowledge and allowing us to get to know each other even better.

I will continue to comment at a reduced rate now as I am now like Brad, practicing the Italian Concerto, but in my case to record it this summer to include on my website. Great music, and a wonderful way to work out positively the energy flow that comes from the celebration of Bach and the challenges of life.

With so much appreciation,

William Hoffman wrote (April 12, 2008):
The best historical view, including a contemporary account of the performance, is in the BachCantatas Title Page, Cantata BWV 198, References: B.M.C. (Baroque Music Club). The work is set in the "Italian Style," which Boyd in OCC says relates to the Italian cantata sequence of choruses, arias and recitatives as well as the idioms appropriate to that style: opening chorus, "concerted texture"; accompanied recitatives (ariosoi) Mvt. 2, Mvt. 4, Mvt. 6 and 9; simple recitative opening 9; motet-fugue chorus Mvt. 7; striking arias Mvt. 3, Mvt. 5 and Mvt. 8; and closing dance-like chorus (Mvt. 10).

Italianate also is the unusual combination of "antique" instruments, pairs of violas da gamba and lutes (as well as separate harpsichord) both in continuo and obliggato functions. The uses of these instruments are explored in detail in Joshua Rifkin's "Performance questions in Bach's Trauerode" (Bach Studies 2). In summary, Rifkin suggests Bach drew his vocal and instrumental forces from a "variety of sources" (p.124) in Leipzig. The use of gambas and lutes, he suggests relates to royalty and death, as well as the gentle gender of the deceased (p.131). He suggests that they may be used in dual function as "an idiosyncratically expanded ensemble" or as a "self-contained adjunct" (p.131). He also suggests that the selective use of the harpsichord offers a special sonority with the lutes and gambas (p.150), particularly in the alto aria Mvt. 5, "How died the heroine," which is the heart and soul of the work. Another striking use of the whole ensemble is the preceeding alto arioso, "The mournful Bells," descending in pitch from flutes to the lutes.

Bach's autograph score calls the work a "Tombeau," which is for "instruments douces" and for the occasion. Two movements have a dance feel. The alto aria (Mvt. 5) is a pastorale and the closing chorus is a gigue.

The commissioned text is by the noted Leipzig Enlightenment professor and poet, J.C. Gottsched, where, in the alto aria (Mvt. 5), the verses focus on the moment of the Queen's death and Bach silences all the instruments, save the gambas and lutes. Bach and Gottsched collaborated on two other cantatas (music lost, probably parodies), BC G42 (1725), a wedding serenade, and BWV Anh. 13 (1738), another university commission. Cantata BWV 198 has been adapted as a sacred work for all-Souls Day (November 1), altered text and added chorales by Wilhelm Rust, BGS editor, available as Kalmus Vocal Scores 6940 (our discussion music). Cantata BWV 198 will be performed at the Bethlehem Bach Festival, May 2 and 9, with the Ascension Oratorio (BWV 11).

Only Bach's original score survives. The parts undoubtedly were salvaged by Bach for the parodied Köthen Funeral Music, Cantata BWV 244a (Part 1 opening and closing choruses), and the parodied St. Mark Passion (BWV 247) (core lyrical music: both choruses and all three arias).

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (April 12, 2008):
[To Jean Laaninen] Thank you Jean for all your introductions.

The Chapelle des Minimes performed this beautiful cantata (together with BWV 106) in November 2006, with Jan Caals as conductor. And last March, we performed the Markus Passion (BWV 247) with Julius Stenzel as conductor, with the same music for the first and final choruses and for three arias.

The first chorus is a real challenge for the choir, rythmically and harmonically, at least I found the alto part much more difficult to learn than with other cantatas.

Additionnally, there is a question about dotted rythms. Some scores have dotted rythms (for example on measure 12) and others not. The Breitkopf score for BWV 198 and the Carus score (with additions of Koch) for the Markus Passion (BWV 247) have semiquavers, but in the Breitkopf score, there is a small line above with the same music with a dotted rythm. Here is what the Preface says: "It can be assumed with certainty that the vocal parts were intended to be performed as dotted notes in the same manner, as notated by Bach himself in bars 28, 30, 31, 35, 36, 60, 62, 67 and 68. It is possible that we are witnessing here a remarkable example of Bach's compositional process in which he became increasingly aware of the kind of dotting he wanted in this movement as the work progressed."I have not listened to any recordings yet, how do they deal with this question?

Another small remark: the online V&P score of this website
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Scores/BWV198-V&P.pdf) has a different text ("Lass, Höchster, lass der Hoffnung Strahl"). At the first choir rehearsal I came with it, and was very surprised to hear the others sing a completely different text! I asked Aryeh who suggested me to ask this question when BWV 198 would be discussed, so here we are! Can someone explain?

I have to add that I really love the final chorus, with the dancing pattern, and the homophonic parts in contrast with the others. I find that the words of Markus Passion (BWV 247) ("Bei deinem Grab...") flow very well with the music, but maybe the words of BWV 198 are more adapted in character ("Doch Königin! du stirbest nicht").

Uri Golomb wrote (April 12, 2008):
Here is a review I wrote of a recent recording of this work, which might interest readers ([16] on http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV198.htm ):

Johann Sebastian Bach: Tombeau de san Majesté la Reine de Pologne Katharine Fuge – soprano, Carlos Mena – alto, Jan Kobow – tenor, Stephan Macleod – bass, Francis Jacob – organ

Ricercar Consort/ Philip Pierlot

Mirare MIR 030; 78’19; recorded 2006

Rating: 4 stars

Bach composed the Trauer-Ode for a memorial service honouring the Electress of Saxony. On that occasion, the Trauer-Ode was performed together with other works. Consort Ricercar attempt to recreate the original sequence: the Ode is framed by the B-minor Prelude and Fugue, BWV 544, and its two parts are separated by a short chorale prelude. These organ works, effectively played by Francis Jacob, strengthen the sense of ceremonial solemnity – but not enough to counterbalance the oddly dry-eyed renditions of the Trauer-ode’s outer movements. Like many other performers (including – to varying degrees – Herreweghe [7], Leonhardt [8], Koopman [11] and Gardiner [9]), Pierlot’s group accentuate the lilting dance-like rhythms in these two choruses, undermining the intense grief and ceremonial solemnity of Bach’s music. The opening chorus, especially, sounds touchingly eloquent at one moment – and frustratingly cheerful at the next.

Elsewhere, Pierlot and Consort Ricercar (a one-per-part vocal consort supported by a small orchestra) subtly yet eloquently underline Bach’s expressive musical rhetoric; they also achieve a well-nigh perfect balance between crystalline textural clarity and alluring sensuous beauty. Similar qualities grace their persuasively lyrical rendition of the A-major Mass. In many respects, then, this is a moving and satisfying disc – but the frustrating clipping of the Trauer-Ode’s outer movements prevents me from giving it a wholehearted recommendation. Among the recordings of the Trauer-Ode known to me, Andrew Parrott’s (on Sony Classical [12]) is perhaps unique in striking the elusive balance between ceremonial restraint and heartfelt grief and in avoiding any hint of inappropriate cheerfulness; his version (also one-per-part) remains my primary recommendation for this work.

Terejia wrote (April 12, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski] I wished to express thank you for valuable work of Jean but I cannot think of any better/more gracious message than Ed.

BWV 198 is one of my favorite cantata with profound beauty yet recently I seem to be at the bottom of sine-carve that I do not feel like doing even things I like the best and otherwise I do with so much zest, as is occasionally the case with me when I feel overwhelmed by something.

Adding my own gratitude and best wishes to Jean to Ed's beautiful post.

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 12, 2008):
[To Thérèse Hanquet]
You've made some good observations below. I can offer some general comments, but I do not have any academic references that speak precisely to the issues you have brought up, even though I now have seven resources at home that speak to Bach issues.

Score differences are something I think a lot of people treat with caution. It's kind of like walking on eggs.

I started to play the piano somewhere before age five, so at 64 I've seen a whole lot of printed music. And from the start I remember thinking that just when I knew a piece someone went and wrote it a different way. And with singing, once I began to read, the same problem occurred. That used to make me a little upset, and it still does at times.

I'm going to make a list of possible reasons for differences in scores.

1. Different scores may have been created from differing source material.
2. Errors in reproducing scores occur more often than one might imagine.
3. Correction to scores today in rehearsals often has to do with notes that do not fit in a harmonic framework that is found in the rest of the piece, or passing tones, for example that cannot be rationally explained, and don't seen to be what a composer would have chosen based on the rest of the work. Something just sounds wrong, that is. Occasionally there are word errors. 4. Music like language is historically always in flux. Sometimes the changes or corrections are made to accommodate current speaking patterns or to correct for lack of known historical usage.
5. As you mention, the evolution of the composer in technique can impact source material.
6. Although there are those who will disagree with me, I think it is possible that differences in sources may come from a choice of environment of performance. I have not heard this theory espoused on this list, but because of Bach's ability to create interlacing parts so eloquently, he obviously had a fine ear and may have fine tuned some compositions in some editions to suit a particular environment. Every person on this list has his or her special abilities. For those of us who work with recording and who have gradually developed a more highly trained ear than we possessed intitally, there is an awareness that Bach could create what we call auto-panning in his scores so incredibly therefore had great acoustic acumen.
7. Another reason for change in accentuation - sustains or more detachment can be based on the number of singers/instrumentalists with whom a composer/director like Bach might have had available. For example, if one is performing in a very live environment, without detachment in some places the texture may become excessively muddy if the ensemble is very large. In the case of todays work, the original audience was most likely very large and maybe the musical ensemble, too, and I believe a man as smart as Bach would have had such factors in mind in the composition of his work and its performance impact.
8. Later revisions of a work get different printings by different companies, and even using identical sources different results will appear. These could be transcription problems. These could be editorial choices, and I suppose with hand written scores sometimes dots could be faint or slightly smeared and their meaning obscured and thus perhaps disregarded.
9. Later versions also come under the scrutiny of musicologists who may argue for the use or lack of use of some markings on the basis of comparison with other scores Bach developed in a similar time period.
10. Some reference has been made to scores Bach's sons revised, perhaps to make them more marketable or usable in a later time.
11. Scores translated into other languages may have had adjustments made to facilitate a different language. Accentuating some words in a different tongue, for example, may have some problems due to accentuations in a language. If some source material came through translated scores, this could be a reason for differences.
12. Even the parts of Germany where scores were used and reproduced might have had variances by dialect, though of course since I am not deep in this kind of study I am not in a position to clarify such a matter on a particular score.
13. The use of a particular movement of any cantata at whatever risk to criticism might have allowed for a word change to something other than the original. If Bach altered the librettists text, someone else may have thought a correction to the original poetry was warranted. 14. Some material is missing from some works, and arrangements that fill the gaps are a matter of guessing at times.

I am you get the idea that with these possible factors alone, that answering such a question as yours is an extremely complex matter, and that one would have to check multiple scores chronologically and in other ways to come up with what might be a satisfying answer. Having said that, if someone on this list knows an exact answer to your question, I hope they will share with us.

I hope someone with a depth of knowledge of this cantata and works that relate will be able to answer you final observations at the end of this post.

Bradley Lehman wrote (April 12, 2008):
Jean Laaninen wrote:
< Score differences are something I think a lot of people treat with caution. It's kind of like walking on eggs. (...)
8. Later revisions of a work get different printings by different companies, and even using identical sources different results will appear. These could be transcription problems. These could be editorial choices, and I suppose with hand written scores sometimes dots could be faint or slightly smeared and their meaning obscured and thus perhaps disregarded. (...)
9. Later versions also come under the scrutiny of musicologists who may argue for the use or lack of use of some markings on the basis of comparison with other scores Bach developed in a similar time period. (...)
13. The use of a particular movement of any cantata at whatever risk to criticism might have allowed for a word change to something other than the original. If Bach altered the librettists text, someone else may have thought a correction to the original poetry was warranted. (...) >
The version with "Lass, Fürstin" is the original by J.C. Gottsched. The one with "Lass, Höchster" is a version by W. Rust. Both texts are printed in full in volume 13.3 of the Bach-Gesellschaft, as part of the critical report about the music and its discrepancies. I'm sure many more details about all this are available in the Neue Bach-Ausgabe as well.

[Jean and Therese, I'll send you a copy of those BG preface pages off-list so you can see the whole thing.]

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 12, 2008):
[To Bradley Lehman] Since I do not have these details I'm glad you can fill in the blanks. One great thing I appreciate about musicologists is that they know where to find the details.

Bradley Lehman wrote (April 13, 2008):
<< The version with "Lass, Füstin" is the original by J.C. Gottsched. The one with "Lass, Höhster" is a version by W. Rust. Both texts are printed in full in volume 13.3 of the Bach-Gesellschaft, as part of the critical report about the music and its discrepancies. I'm sure many more details about all this are available in the Neue Bach-Ausgabe as well.
Since I do not have these details I'm glad you can fill in the blanks. One great thing I appreciate about musicologists is that they know where to find the details. >
The NBA and BGA are both very good editions in their own historical contexts, and both were carefully ("cautiously"...) done in a positivistic style of musicology. Neither is exhaustive, of course, since choices always need to be made, and since research continues after their publication. But, for the type of positivistic questions they're able to answer, such as "why is there such a discrepancy of the two sung texts", these two editions are always worth consulting as part of the process of finding answers.

For other types of questions that go beyond sorting out the extant *written* materials, such as questions of musical interpretation or performance practices, these fine editions don't have all the answers. They still have the limitation (but also the virtue) of their cautious focus on facts about pieces of paper that Bach and his colleagues touched. Music isn't paper. :) Composition was and is a dynamic process as music gets created, used, reused, and takes on a life of its own. All the style of musicological positivism can do there is to sort out and describe any clearly discernible layers, and present them. It doesn't tell anybody how to be musical, or how to pick a tempo or
balance an ensemble or deliver a phrase with appropriate accentuation, beyond the printed or handwritten scores/parts.

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 13, 2008):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
< All the style of musicological positivism can do there is to sort out and describe any clearly discernible layers, and present them. It doesn't tell anybody how to be musical, or how to pick a tempo or balance an ensemble or deliver a phrase with appropriate accentuation, beyond the printed or handwritten scores/parts. >
This is an important point. Structural points of view inform, in my opinion, only up to a point.

William Hoffman wrote (April 13, 2008):
Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
< .... (")It is possible that we are witnessing here a remarkable example of Bach's compositional process in which he became increasingly aware of the kind of dotting he wanted in this movement as the work progressed." I have not listened to any recordings yet, how do they deal with this question? >
William Hoffman replies:
I think Uri Golomb in his review of the latest recording on the list, [16], (Pierlot/Ricercar Consort), helps to frame the discussion in a general sense. He calls it a "moving and satisfying disc" except for the "frustrating clipping of the Trauer-Ode's outer movements...." The crux of the dilemma, it seems to me, is that these framing, expansive choruses are influenced by the dance, especially the gigue, while the actual music (both Cantata 198 and the St. Mark Passion (BWV 247)) is for mourning and consolation. And in light of Thérèse Hanquet's quote, I think that Bach in 1727, as he is writing the music, is caught up in both the dance and mourning aspects.

As to the recordings of the choruses (in both works), my cursory examination and selective reflections suggest that they run the gamut, stylistically, from the dance to the mourning. I am struck, on the one hand, with some of the most recent performances of the BWV 247 choruses, in the Goodman and Webber accounts with the quickened dance emphasis; while in some of the older performances, in particular Robert Craft [2] (Cantata BWV 198) and Wolfgang Goeninwein (BWV 247), with the solemn, still stately approach, and, ironically, ditto with Koopman's Cantata BWV 198 effort [11] in 1996!

I must personally acknowledge, given the double-shot of both works, that I prefer the "older," more stately approach, although I'd like to have the best of both worlds, because I like both chocolate and vanilla equally!

Neil Mason wrote (April 13, 2008):
I wish to add my thanks for the work of Jean.

Unfortunately I do not have the time to listen to the cantatas on a weekly basis. However I know that when I have holidays and can listen I will find the introductions penned by Jean and the following comments illuminating.

I do hope that Jean will find the time and energy to do more of them in the future.

Chris Rowson wrote (April 13, 2008):
Jean Laaninen wrote:
< BWV 198 Laß, Fürstin, laß einen Strahl! (Let Princess, One more Ray)
BWV 198 page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV198.htm
BWV 198 discussion page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV198-D.htm
Written as a memorial to the Electoress Christiane Eberhandine ...
Malcomb Boyd, ... >

What is it about this cantata that has the typos flowing like tears? The intro sets the tone by omitting the "noch" from the first line and calls the Fürstin "Eberhandine", while www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV198.htm gives the extraordinary title "Treauerode"?

Of course the typos are not important, but I think it really does the Fuerstin a disservice to compare her with Princess Diana. Christiane Eberhardine was genuinely appreciated by a large propof the populace, and not least for standing up to the pressure from her extremely powerful husband ("the Strong") to turn Saxony Catholic in accordance with the then usually accepted principle that the religion of the people follows the religion of the ruler. This was a hard struggle, and she won and the people loved her for it.

Princess Diana was perhaps more loved by foreigners seeking an icon than by the British public, for many of whom she was an expensive irrelevance.

But how about taking the whole of the Soprano aria BWV 198/3 (Mvt. 3) in triplet rhythms?

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (April 13, 2008):
[To William Hoffman] I just bought yesterday the Ricercar Consort recording of BWV 198 [16] (and was pleasantly surprised to see it included the BWV 234 mass).

I have their recording of BWV 106 which I really love, but here I also was a little disappointed with the first chorus of BWV 198. Maybe it is because of the OVPP in this case... also it seems to me that the voice of Carlos Mena (who is an excellent and moving singer) comes out more than those of the three others.

They apparently do not do the dotted rythms where we did (and where they are indicated above the score). I think that these dotted rythms accentuate the message of the text. Also with more singers, the music conveys another character and allows for more contrast IMHO.

When we performed the Markus Passion (BWV 247), we also made the dotted rythms, but a little less accentuated (in between semiquavers and dotted rythms), and we had a significantly slower tempo than in BWV 198. This seemed indeed more appropriate to the more intimate and "personal" character of the text.

I concur with Uri Golomb's review for the quality of the rest of the Ricercar Consort's recording [16], but I do not feel the final chorus dissatisfying at all. For me the dance-like music expresses the idea that the dead princess will always be there in the memory of her people and be their joy and proudness.

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 13, 2008):
Chris Rowson wrote:
< Princess Diana was perhaps more loved by foreigners seeking an icon than by the British public, for many of whom she was an expensive irrelevance. >
On another music list, the music at Diana's funeral was the subject of a recent lively discussion.

And she looked so good in that short black cocktail dress ...

Chris Rowson wrote (April 13, 2008):
[To Douglas Cowling] That's what I mean, Diana looked good in a short cocktail dess, Christiane Eberhardine helped get the marshes drained so people could live there.

Julian Mincham wrote (April 13, 2008):
[To Chris Rowson] A bit unfair. I am no royalist, but she did a lot to combat the prejudices against aids victims and she was working on the strategies to get rid of the landmines which disfigure so many people around the world when she died.

In my view she did rather more constructively than the rest of the royal family put together---although indeed, that might not be saying very much.

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 13, 2008):
[To Neil Mason] I'm glad you found my work worthy, Neil. Yes, after a longer break of maybe a year, if Aryeh wishes me to return I will schedule some weeks for the list. Meanwhile, I need to get back to recording as my family and friends were a bit disappointed I did not give them a recorded Christmas gift this year--never mind they'd had two cantatas and a flute concerto mid-year. But that's good quality support, and I love to make music. I am also doing a bit more video filming of some wonderful recitals here, and while I have streamlined my methods, I take time to get the program details before, and to follow through quickly with a DVD and snapshots taken from the performance for these great young people. So my life in retirement is a celebration of music, and an opportunity to help nurture the future of music. To see one's own performance allows one to realize the small details that are good and those that need correction or improvement.

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 13, 2008):
[To Chris Rowson] I work from the resources I have, and I'm sorry if my errors were an offense. In ten weeks there have not been so many, but Aryeh is willing to correct these details, as he does at times. The fact that there are many resources and not all presented in material in the same manner is a good reason for discussion and asking for the participation of people like you.

A musical memorial certainly does not equate the personalities of the royal members involved. However, I would like to point out that both women were known and loved for their giving ways, even though their lives were dramatically different. That's someone history has documented even if Diana became a pop figure in a manner which was not possible in early Germany.

This may not be of any importance to you, but at the end of ten weeks I am tired, and perhaps for that reason the quality of my work has contained a few imperfections.

Have you ever written the introductions? Would you honor us by doing so?

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (April 13, 2008):
Chris Rowson wrote:
< That's what I mean, Diana looked good in a short cocktail dess, Christiane Eberhardine helped get the marshes drained so people could live there >
Well you're being a bit catty without justification: Princess Diana did plenty of social justice work, especially in regards to AIDS and her work for an international ban on the use of anti-personnel landmines.

Aryeh Oron wrote (April 13, 2008):
Introduction to BWV 198 - The Princess and the Prince (somewhat OT)

Julian Mincham wrote:
< A bit unfair. I am no royalist, but she did a lot to combat the prejudices against aids victims and she was working on the strategies to get rid of the landmines which disfigure so many people around the world when she died.
In my view she did rather more constructively than the rest of the royal family put together---although indeed, that might not be saying very much. >
On the other hand, the Prince of Wales is the Patron of Gardiner's Bach Cantata Pilgrimage series.

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 13, 2008):
[To Aryeh Oron] Great point, Aryeh.

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 13, 2008):
[To Kim Patrick Clow] One of the ironies of life is that seeing the worst in others is very easy, but in terms of quality social interaction and the building of society, I have always found it is wise to accept faults along with virtues and to focus on what is good in others most of all.

Peter Smaill wrote (April 13, 2008):
A few discursive thoughts about this fascinating and complex work.

It is not really a Church cantata at all; there are as it happens 11 which do not have any hymn reference at all, and this work, devoid of all chorales, would make a twelfth. According to Dreyfus, who analyses its setting copiously in his "Patterns of invention", there were no clergy officiating at the memorial service. Christ, so often in Bach the image of comfort for the departed is absent, not mentioned ; unless the word "Schopfer" is taken to refer not just to God the Father as creator. And yet Bach then derives the St Mark Passion (BWV 247) setting from the music here composed for a scarcely religious event.

The contemporary account talks of Bach moving round the orchestra, playing several of the instruments as reported in C E Sicul's "Das thraenende Leipzig" (in Boyd) and Dreyfus is certain that critic-to-be Scheide was in the audience. The chopping about of Gottsched's poem by Bach may be thus a significant point of tension with the Enlightenment forces in Leipzig.

Whittaker is strongly repelled by the incursion of the unison passages in the final chorus, which he considers an unparalleled blunder. For me they are a masterstroke, underpinning the solemnity in contrast to the dance rhythms of the section, and illustrating the idea of writing or rather engraving the qu's tribute, "She was virtue's possession/Her subjects delight and glory". The epitaph thus achieves a dramatic separation from the rest of the text.

More controversially, Dreyfus observes that Bach put his pen down on the completion of the score only two days before the performance, necessitating rapid work by the copyists for the large band and choir parts. So this work tends to support the theory that the Cantatas could be executed rapidly by copyists because we have more evidence of the precise timing of its commission and execution than is usual the case.

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 13, 2008):
Peter Smaill wrote:
< Whittaker is strongly repelled by the incursion of the unison passages in the final chorus, which he considers an unparalleled blunder. For me they are a masterstroke, underpinning the solemnity in contrast to the dance rhythms of the section, and illustrating the idea of writing or rather engraving the queen's tribute, "She was virtue's possession/Her subjects delight and glory". The epitaph thus achieves a dramatic separation from the rest of the text. >
I agree that the unison passage is one of Bach's greatest choral moments. It is even more affecting in the St. Mark Passion (BWV 247) where the final chorus is set at the grave of Christ and the choir reads his epitaph:

Schau, diese Grabschrifft solt du haben:
Mein Leben kömmt aus deinem Tod,
Hier hab ich meine Sünden=Noth
Und Jesum selbst in mich begraben.

See, you shall have this epitaph:
"My life will come out of your death ..."

I remember hearing the old Gönnewein recording (which I think was the first reconstruction) as a teenager and finding the passage so unique and affecting in the works of Bach.

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 13, 2008):
Peter Smaill wrote:
< More controversially, Dreyfus observes that Bach put his pen down on the completion of the score only two days before the performance, necessitating rapid work by the copyists for the large band and choir parts. So this work tends to support the theory that the Cantatas could be executed rapidly by copyists because we have more evidence of the precise timing of its commission and execution than is usual the case. >
I noticed this fact of close completion in Deurr, but did not think about the expanded meaning you have brought up here. Could university students (perhaps even some performing, been recruited to help with the monumental task?

Skip Jennings wrote (April 13, 2008):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< Well you're being a bit catty without justification: Princess Diana did plenty of social justice work, especially in regards to AIDS and her work for an international ban on the use of anti-personnel landmines. >
I'm not sure how we got on to this subject, but here is my $0.02:

Diana would have been forgotten within a month of her death if she had looked like Camilla.

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 13, 2008):
Ach! If only the music stimulated so much discussion.
>I'm not sure how we got on to this subject, but here is my $0.02:<

The subject came up because in her introduction, Jean raised the analogy between Diana and Christiane, to provide current social context for Bachs composition, a commission (fee contested!) for a memorial service.

>Diana would have been forgotten within a month of her death if she had looked like Camilla.<
Ach! If only ugliness were so easily forgetten. Or forgiven.

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 13, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski] Ed, you do put perspective to these matters, and give me great opportunity
for a good chuckle.

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 14, 2008):
Peter Smaill wrote:
>More controversially, Dreyfus observes that Bach put his pen down on the completion of the score only two days before the performance, necessitating rapid work by the copyists for the large band and choir parts. So this work tends to support the theory that the Cantatas could be executed rapidly by copyists because we have more evidence of the precise timing of its commission and execution than is usually the case.<
Thanks for several stimulating thoughts in this post, which require a bit of time with the references.

Until then, from the above citation, there are some considerations of logic, before any conclusions, however preliminary:

(1) Even if the report of the timing of the last pen stroke (Bach put his pen down) is reliable, this does not necessarily precede the beginning of copying of parts.

(2) BWV 198 may be the example which is least typical of Bach's characteristic composition circumstances. It may well be a better case for unusual, rather than characteristic methods. I believe the condition of the autograph score supports this idea (reference to follow).

(3) Much of the discussion on this topic has centered on the suggestion that the Leipzig cantatas for the first few years were typically completed and copied in the evening before performance, then sight read not very long after dawn the following morning. Completion of the score, even if only two days in advance, is significantly different.

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 14, 2008):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< (3) Much of the discussion on this topic has centered on the suggestion that the Leipzig cantatas for the first few years were typically completed and copied in the evening before performance, then sight read not very long after dawn the following morning. Completion of the score, even if only two days in advance, is significantly different. >
I am inclined to agree with Ed's analysis here. Having said that, the work process seems interesting to me.

Chris Rowson wrote (April 14, 2008):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote, regarding Diana:
< Well you're being a bit catty without justification: Princess Diana did plenty of social justice work, especially in regards to AIDS and her work for an international ban on the use of anti-personnel landmines. >
Yes, I admit, I was being a bit unfair, her last few years Diana made some useful contributions. But still she is remembered principally for looking good on camera, and I think it does Christiane Eberhardine a disservice to be likened to her. The people called her "The Pillar of Saxony".

Chris Rowson wrote (April 14, 2008):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< Ach! If only the music stimulated so much discussion. >
So what do you think about taking the whole of the Soprano aria 198/3 in triplet rhythms, Ed?

William Hoffman wrote (April 14, 2008):
Intro. to BWV 198: Genesis

William Hoffman offers this note:

Cantata BWV 198: Genesis (Motives, Methods, Opportunities). While much has been written about Bach's conflict with University church music director J.G. Görner, which threatened Bach's involvement, the actual genesis of the Funeral Ode shows Bach, the calculating composer, to be a most calculating impresario.

Here is the composition timeline (cited in Rifkin, "Performance questions in Bach's Trauerode," Bach Studies 2, CUP, 1995, p/120ff): Her Majesty's death, Sept. 5, 1727; Royal Mourning period begins, September 7 (ban on all musical performances); Leipzig University student Kirchbach requests memorial service with music at Paulinerkirchke, September 12; while awaiting August the Strong's approval (October 3), Gottshed text and Bach's music solicited; Görner protest, October 7; compromise (one-time event) with Görner compensation, October 11; performance October 17.

Process: Bach loves commissions and is free to produce only this work. Having presented his demanding St. Matthew Passion (BWV 244) on the previous Good Friday, he has vast performing resources available (including gambas and lutes). Also, on August 3, he had presented Cantata BWV 193a for August's Name Day, his first for the Saxon Court. No longer writing weekly cantatas, he's broadened his horizons; he's got his foot in the royal door. He composes music for this ode "in the Italian style," strongly favored by the Court at Dresden (see Carol Baron, "Tumultuous Philosophers," Bach's Changing World, p.54). The service is an "august" (pun intended!).

Ulterior motive? With his lyric parodist Picander at hand, fresh from the St. Matthew Passion (BWV 244) successful collaboration, Bach does "double-duty," killing two birds with one stone. Bach lays out the mourning music with another Passion in mind, probably Mark (see "Classical notes: Bach Redux," flanderstoday.eu; interview with Julius Stenzel re. St. Mark Passion (BWV 247) performance, 3/16/2007). Picander may even have suggested to Bach how to restructure the Gottsched texts so they could be parodied. It's the beginning of Bach's final push for a "well-regulated church music" (through extensive parodies): the oratorios of 1734-35, the four Lutheran Masses of the late 1730s, and of course the great contrafaction, the Mass in b Minor (BWV 232), 1749 (for the Dresden Court).

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 14, 2008):
[To Chris Rowson, regarding Diana] Though it may seem a bit weak to you, I really think all I had in mind was that musically events develop out of a need for people to memorialize those in the public eye who are greatly loved. Even on this side of the ocean we can distinguish between a woman who was so committed to her beliefs that she lived an exemplary life, and to one who suffered some great misfortune in the course of hers. You are being unfair as you say, Chris. Ease up a little, please--to be reminded of a recent event in history does not equate with the past of a very special individual and I knew that when I made a general comparison.

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 14, 2008):
William Hoffman wrote:
< Here is the composition timeline (cited in Rifkin, "Performance questions in Bach's Trauerode," Bach Studies 2, CUP, 1995, p/120ff): Her Majesty's death, Sept. 5, 1727; Royal Mourning period begins, September 7 (ban on all musical performances); Leipzig University student Kirchbach requests memorial service with music at Paulinerkirchke, September 12; while awaiting August the Strong's approval (October 3), Gottshed text and Bach's music solicited; Görner protest, October 7; compromise (one-time event) with Görner compensation, October 11; performance October 17.
Process: Bach loves commissions and is free to produce only this work. >
Although there is no evidence whatsoever to substantiate my supposition, I believe that a musician in Bach's position would never be caught unprepared by the death of a royal or civic worthy. He would have known that a member of the royal family or a leader in the city or church could die suddenly and that a suitable musical offering would have to be performed. I'm sure that Bach could have written any of the memorial cantatas on short notice, but I suspect that he had mental or real sketches for texts and music ready for these eventualities. If there was a "conspiracy" between Bach and Picander, it was probably part of a long-standing conversation about a memorial work for the queen. As I've mentioned before, the service and music for the recent funeral of the Queen Mother had been finalized for ten years. That's the work that courtiers and would-be courtiers are paid to do.

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 14, 2008):
Chris Rowson wrote:
>Yes, I admit, I was being a bit unfair, her last few years Diana made some useful contributions. But still she is remembered principally for looking good on camera, and I think it does Christiane Eberhardine a disservice to be likened to her. The people called her "The Pillar of Saxony".<
Without entering the Diana controversy, I think you raise a good point re Christiane Eberhardine, and her status as inspiration for Bachs memorial music. Or at least inspiration for the source of the commission fee, before it came under dispute, if I have that bit of history correctly.

Which raises a number of subsidiary points of interest:

(1) Does her status as a female politcal hero make new social advances for women, at the time?

(2) Is her religious affiliation specifically Lutheran, or more generally anti-Catholic.

(3) Was her spiritual affiliation the inspiration for the music, for the fee, or a little of each?

An aside to Chris: good to see you back on-list, with a spirit of give and take in the discussions. I think Diana is principally remembered for her spectacular death, rather than for either her looks or accomplishments (potential or actual). What she shares with Christiane is the willingness to confront and question male hierarchy. Were I a lady, I might admire them both equally, for that quality alone.

Chris Rowson wrote (April 14, 2008):
Introduction to BWV 198 - noch

The thing is, I lived in England through most of Diana's life, and I later spent several years in Saxony. Christiane Eberhardine was 270 years gone, but still a major presence. I think there is a big mismatch between the two, and I think it is important for the comprehension of this cantata to have a grasp of the depth of feelings for her of the Saxon people.

She stood up for them against August The Strong, and won - and there were not many who did that.

This depth of feeling is what Bach has expressed so powerfully in the cantata that makes it so particularly impressive - an amazing achievement given the shortage of time. "O Königin, Du stirbest nicht ."

Chris Rowson wrote (April 14, 2008):
Doug Cowling wrote:
"Although there is no evidence whatsoever to substantiate my supposition, I believe that a musician in Bach's position would never be caught unprepared by the death of a royal or civic worthy. He would have known that a member of the royal family or a leader in the city or church could die suddenly and that a suitable musical offering would have to be performed. As I've mentioned before, the service and music for the recent funeral of the Queen Mother had been finalized for ten years. That's the work that courtiers and would-be courtiers are paid to do."
Yes I'd been speculating along similar lines, too. And while the death of August The Strong or his heir was sure to be memorialised in Dresden, there was good reason to think that the Queen's memorial would be in Leipzig .

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 14, 2008):
[To Chris Rowson, regarding noch] I am impressed with the fact that this woman's presence is still so highly regarded. Having lived on this side of the pond and not having had access to any information about Christiane Eberhardine - though I have studied quite a bit of history - the enlightenment you bring to this point in discussion takes on more meaning.

Because there are many things I do not know about European history generally as I have studied European history largely in the theological vein, I did not anticipate that BWV 198 would be a big topic. And I had sort of imagined a more limited discussion, and that I would ease out of my final week without being on email too much. So much for imagining.

Obviously I was quite wrong and had I recognized the significance of this work to Europeans and others who know this history I would have taken the time to do the score analysis. As it is, I have three recitals and filming on one to do this week, along with other appointments, so I cannot attempt that approach right now. But since there is considerable important imagery in this work, I have decided to do a score analysis with a little deeper
look to the text in relation to the notes and form at some point in the future. When I have completed this task I will mail it to the group--perhaps later this summer.

I think it is good that you have made your points because we cannot know everything here, and perhaps even some in your area do not realize the contribution this woman made to history.

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 14, 2008):
Chris Rowson wrote:
>This depth of feeling is what Bach has expressed so powerfully in the cantata that makes it so particularly impressive – an amazing achievemgiven the shortage of time. “O Königin, Du stirbest nicht …”<
I see that this is an important point, and so it is worth getting the details as accurate as possible. I believe Doug Cowling is making the opposite argument, that Bach must have had the music prepared in advance, either because the event is so important to Bach, or so inevitable. That is, shortage of time is not a factor.

I am not clear as to whether there is any conflict with the time line, or only with the motivation, as presented by William Hoffman. My impression of his point is that Bach would not have had any music specifically available until the commission was securely in hand for BWV 198. However, there is the suggested analogy with BWV 193a, which was parodied from older material despite the lack of time pressure.

>So what do you think about taking the whole of the Soprano aria 198/3 in triplet rhythms, Ed?<
Sorry I overlooked this question the first time it came around, in the midst of the Diana discussion. In my responses, I did not mean to imply that there has been no discussion of music re BWV 198. Just the opposite, in fact, there is much more than usual. The question is welcome, the sort that stimulates careful listening.

To be responsive, a quick look at a couple references (Whittaker, BWV, no score at hand), and a listen to Scherchen [1], indicate that the triplet phrases are intended to provide contrast, and Scherchen plays the aria exactly that way. Does anyone take the entire aria in triplet rhythms?

Neil Halliday wrote (April 14, 2008):
Introduction to BWV 198 (Mvt. 1)

Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
>in the Breitkopf score, there is a small line above with the same music with a dotted rythm. Here is what the Preface says: "It can be assumed with certainty that the vocal parts were intended to be performed as dotted notes in the same manner, as notated by Bach himself in bars 28, 30, 31, 35, 36, 60, 62, 67 and 68. It is possible that we are witnessing here a remarkable example of Bach's compositional process in which he became increasingly aware of the kind of dotting he wanted in this movement as the work progressed."
I have not listened to any recordings yet, how do they deal with this question?

Of Scherchen [1], Jürgens [3], and Rilling [6] (the recordings I have), only Rilling dots the vocal parts from start to finish. It's not easy to nominate a definite preference in this matter, because other matters such as tempo and phrasing are also important, so one would have to hear a performance where these parameters were constant in order to form an opinion about the dotting; apparently it's not a 'make or break' matter, judging from these examples.

On the matter of tempo, I prefer that of Jürgens [3], Koopman [11], and Parrott [12] (from samples of the latter two), all around 7 mins.

On phrsasing, Jürgens [3] excessively separates the dotted 1/16^th notes from the following 1/32^nd notes, IMO; from the samples, Parrott [12] and Koopman [11] have more varied phrasing - sometimes connecting the the dotted 1/16^th note to the following 1/32^nd note with a slur, as shown occasionally in the score, eg, in the second bar, third beat, with the d'amore and gamba parts; and in the 4^th bar from the end, with the flute I and violin I parts. Why only these parts are marked in this fashion in the score is a bit of a mystery, similar to the situation with the vocal writing, where only short sections of the vocal parts are notated with the dotted rhythm (Rilling [6] dots all of it, as noted above).

Rilling's version [6] flows nicely enough, though it seems a bit brisk (5.45). Gardiner's brisker tempo (5.17) [9] creates the unfortunate image of the celebrants dancing around the queen's coffin (IMO), but to his credit Gardiner does have more flexibility of phrasing than Fasolis' equally fast version (5.09) [14]. At the other extreme, Scherchen's very slow 9.38 [1], with heavy vocal vibratos heard seemingly from all the members of the Vienna Chamber Academy Choir, makes for a laboured performance.

The score shows other signs of loss or rush, eg, no figured bass extant, or indications of phrasing/articulation for the swinging octaves in the continuo.

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (April 14, 2008):
[To William Hoffman, regarding Genesis] Your post answers a question I had about the genesis of the Markus Passion (BWV 247).

At our first rehearsal for the Markus Passion (BWV 247), Julius Stenzel precisely (who conducted the performance) told us that he thought that the Markus Passion (BWV 247) was written prior to BWV 198, as the words fitted the music so well (I hoped I understood him correctly). I was puzzled then to read on our concert notes that "it is probable that the Markus Passion (BWV 247) was first heard on Good Friday, 23^rd March 1731" (while BWV 198 was written in 1727). But this interesting hypothesis would confirm that Bach thought well in advance.

No link with this, but last Wednesday Julius told us that there will probaly be a CD of our performance of the Markus Passion (BWV 247), as the recording seemed satisfying. I will be interested to listen to it "from the other side"!

John Pike wrote (April 14, 2008):
[To Chris Rowson, regarding Diana] Sorry to go off topic, but I have read these and other comments about Diana and Camilla with some sadness. I found them quite gauche.

I was never a great fan of Diana, nor am I of Charles or Camilla, but some of these comments are really not in order. Whatever her faults (and there were many), Diana was greatly loved by the British people, and she did indeed do a lot of very good work, much of it already mentioned on list. She also communicated very well with ordinary people. Anyone who saw the mountains of flowers in London after her death could have been left in no doubt about that. I remember seeing footage once of her playing a snippet of the slow movement of Rachmaninov's second piano concerto, with nice touch. I imagine there was a lot more to her than some are prepared to give credit for.

The comments about Camilla's personal appearance were also inappropriate for members of a list where this week we are discussing one of Bach's greatest cantatas, in my view. I have not had time to listen to any recordings this week, but it has always been one of my favourites. I find it extraordinary that Whittaker was unable to appreciate the supreme genius of Bach in the unison passage...indeed a deeply moving moment and entirely appropriate given the libretto at that point.

John Pike wrote (April 14, 2008):
[To Neal Mason, regarding Jean Laaninen] I agree with all this. I, too, have little free time now, but I have greatly enjoyed reading Jean's excellent introductions and, it should be added, the very high standard of contributions (broadly speaking) from list members over the weeks since I rejoined the list. A few years ago, the list was marred by recurrent unpleasantness, in which I must confess I allowed myself to slip, but the current discussions are very enjoyable and stimulating.

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 14, 2008):
Thérèse Hanquet wrote (regarding Genesis):
< I was puzzled then to read on our concert notes that "it is probable that the Markus Passion (BWV 247) was first heard on Good Friday, 23^rd March 1731" (while BWV 198 was written in 1727). But this interesting hypothesis would confirm that Bach thought well in advance. >
Again, there is no evidence to support my presupposition, bI believe that Bach conceived many of his secular cantatas with their eventual reuse as sacred works. The ill-named "parody" technique unfortunately has fostered the Rushed Bach Myth ("Mein Gott, it's Friday night and I don't have a cantata for Sunday!) and the Bored Bach Myth ("Mein Gott, I can't think of another damned cantata; I'll use that old one from What's-Her-Name's funeral") Far from being lesser works because they reused musical material, Bach more often than naught transformed them: the Christmas Oratorio (BWV 248) and the Mass in B Minor (BWV 232) are the greatest examples. In fact, the versions in those works have become "the" versions and the earlier incarnations often considered run-ups. All of these popular Romantic myths do not help get us closer to the real Bach who I believe was the Well-Regulated Bach.

Aryeh Oron wrote (April 14, 2008):
BWV 198 - Provenance

Thomas Braatz contributed Provenance page for Cantata BWV 198.
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Ref/BWV198-Ref.htm

Santu de Silva wrote (April 14, 2008):
The rhythms of the French Funeral March pervade this work. It has been some time since I listened to the whole thing, but at least one aria (a contralto aria?) is in that slow 12/8 time, or at least quadruple time with triplets.

Neil Halliday wrote (April 15, 2008):
The text of this cantata contains some striking images, eg, a ray of light (ie, a last glance from the queen) from the starry vaults of heaven (Salem = heavenly Jerusalem, I presume) looking down on the misery of the mourners (Mvt. 1); the tolling bells with their resounding bronze awaking the mourners' souls' terror, and piercing them to the depth of bone marrow and arteries (Mvt. 4); Eternity's sapphire house, with a brightness that makes our day look like night, and our sun appear dark by comparison, drawing the queen's lively glance (in life) away from earth's lowly state (Mvt. 8), and the vanity of the royal purple robe replaced by a pearl-white robe of purity (Mvt. 9), etc.

Th 1/16^th note string motive in the 1^st recitative (Mvt. 2) appears in the accompaniment of the following soprano aria (Mvt. 3), which has affecting chromatic melismas on "Schmezenswort" ("painful word"). Scherchen [1] gives the violin I part to a solo violin. Rilling [6] is a bit fast and unaffecting. Gardiner [9] probably has one of the finest recordings of this aria (not to ignore the others).

Perhaps the tolling of different size bells is represented by the 1/16^th, 1/8^th, and 1/4 note figures (broken chords) in the accompaniment of the following recitative (Mvt. 4). Scherchen [1] has pizzicato double bass in the continuo for the largest bell.

The following alto aria (Mvt. 5) is nearly as moving as the "Ewäge" aria in the SJP (BWV 245) (which has 2 violas d'amore, cf. 2 violas da gamba in this movement BWV 198/5); the long-held notes in the instruments are heard later in the voice on the words "starb" (died") and "besiegt" ("vanquished") set to affecting changing tonalities. (Some recordings are a bit light on the long notes on the gambas).

Listening to Jürgens [3], I noticed an independant entry of the fugue subject on the flutes in the central chorus, BWV 198/7 (Mvt. 7). It is in fact the only independent instrumental entry of the fugue subject (apart from the flute entries in the central ritornello); otherwise the instruments double the (fugue subject) vocal entries. This entry of the unison flutes can be heard in the second fugal exposition within the sequence A,S,unison flutes, T, B. The flutes are silent in the first fugal exposition, first appearing in the central ritornello in a dialoque with the gambas. Rilling [6] has a particulaly grand entry of the subject when it appears in the (vocal) bass line doubled by continuo.

The tenor aria (Mvt. 8) is very moving, another candidate for a "Bach's Greatest Hits" selection. (BTW, is Parrott's flute [12] loud enough?) Baldin with Rilling [6] brings a pleasing gentle expression to his voice (for a change?).

In the following movement (Mvt. 9), Scherchen's bass vocalist [1] has a magnificent but gentle bass voice, making this recitative/arioso/accompanied recitative movement a joy to listen to. The harpsichord has arpeggio chords in the arioso that mimic the rhythm of the accompaniment in the preceding aria ie, one (silent 2) three; 1,(silent 2), 3. Some recordings in the arioso reveal the common problem of bass strings 'sawing away' without any treble material. The succession of diminished 7^th and minor chords (on woodwinds) in the accompanied recitative reflects the text ("the land loses its eyes' delight").

The final chorus (Mvt. 10) has that affecting combination of sweetness and sorrow that marks the closing of Bach's passions, with a sweeping melody given to 1^st violins doubled by woodwinds, that is taken up by the choir in a mostly homophonic setting. (The 12/8 rhythm of this chorus is also seen in the alto aria).

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 15, 2008):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< The text of this cantata contains some striking images, eg, a ray of light (ie, a last glance from the queen) from ...etc. >
I have saved your notes to my computer so that when I get some time in the summer I can compare what strikes me with what you have written, regarding the score.

Chris Rowson wrote (April 16, 2008):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< ...
(1) Does her status as a female politcal hero make new social advances for women, at the time?
(2) Is her religious affiliation specifically Lutheran, or more generally anti-Catholic.
(3) Was her spiritual affiliation the inspiration for the music, for the fee, or a little of each?
An aside to Chris: good to see you back on-list, with a spirit of give and take in the discussions. I think Diana is principally remembered for her spectacular death, rather than for either her looks or accomplishments (potential or actual). What she shares with Christiane is the willingness to confront and question male hierarchy. Were I a lady, I might admire them both equally, for that quality alone. >
1) I've not been conscious of this as a gender issue, I never thought of it like that before.

2) I have always assumed she was specifically Lutheran, as was all (?) of Saxony.

3) She was an inspiration to the people and they loved her. I'll try to give a bit more background.

I grew up as an English organist, entranced by JSB, but knowing I could never visit Leipzig - it wasn't impossibly far but I'd get shot if I tried. Time went by, the wall came down, and I found myself living in Dresden. And the Frauenkirche was being rebuilt.

I consider myself privileged to have experienced the latter stages of this, and many times as I crossed the bridge looking at the rising profile I thought of how JSB had also seen this. And during this time, I read the Wolff biography and came to understand much better JSB's position in time and space.

It is not possible to spend much time in Dresden without becoming aware of August der Starke - August the Strong. His influence is everywhere, still. As just one example, I will mention the Golden Rider, an extremely imposing statue of August dressed as a Roman emperor mounted on an equally imposing horse. It stands, in splendid at the top of Dresden's Main Street, completely covered in gold.

It survived the famous firestorm of 1945 by being disassembled and stored in a cave by the people of Dresden, and reassembled and restored later.

August's reign (1694-1733) was very much a Golden Age for Saxony. Initially looking to France as the senior monarchy, Saxony's power was secured and increased while that of the ailing Louis XIV waned. By 1715 Saxony was one of the most powerful states in Europe. The capital was Dresden, and Leipzig its 2^nd city.

Saxony and its ruling Wettiner dynasty had been supporters of Martin Luther from the beginning, even before the Diet of Worms in 1521. But August wanted to become King of Poland, partly for the royal title - like King Louis of France - as well as for economic and military reasons. He won the necessary battles and the necessary election, but to secure the crown he had to convert to Roman Catholicism.

In the religious upheavals of the 16th and 17^th centuries, a principle had been established by which the religion of a people must follow that of the ruler. Thus Saxony was going to have to accept an influx of Roman Catholic priests, acceptance that communication of man could no longer be direct but must be mediated by a Latin-speaking priest, that the Lutheran German Bible must be replaced by the Latin form, and that all rituals and rites must be conducted in a language incomprehensible to most Saxons.

I imagine August was very pleased to be turned away from this course. But it was Queen Christiane Eberhardine who was credited with having accomplished this, and she remained the defender of the people´s religion in the eyes of the public, who called her "The Pillar of Saxony". She was also involved in many more projects to benefit the people of Dresden and Saxony, not least the construction of the Frauenkirche.

Her death in 1727 was correspondingly mourned and memorialised. JSB was commissioned to provide music.

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 16, 2008):
Chris Rowson wrote:
< In the religious upheavals of the 16^th and 17^th centuries, a principle had been established by which the religion of a people must follow that of the ruler. Thus Saxony was going to have to accept an influx of Roman Catholic priests, acceptance that communication of man could no longer be direct but must be mediated by a Latin-speaking priest, that the Lutheran German Bible must be replaced by the Latin form, and that all rituals and rites must be conducted in a language incomprehensible to most Saxons. >
This description is a tad on the polemical side. Luther assumed that Latin would remain in the liturgy of the church when he produced his two forms of the mass. Bach's choir sang in Latin every Sunday, and not just an optional motet but parts of the ordinary such as the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo and Sanctus.

I'm not sure that history is served by the image of bogeyman Jesuits swarming over Saxony. The Lutheran settlement was established and demanded conformity with civic and ecclesiatical penalties. Clergy were the monitors of this orthodoxy and maintained visitations which were judicial inquisitions. Even Luther was hardly a promoter of the freedom of relgious conscience -- his writings against the Jews are primarily arguments against their refusal to see things his way.

Lutherans did not think of themselves as having individual theological freedom in some proto-democracy. The queen was making a stand for the old establishment of relligion probably out of personal conviction and the Lutherans who benefted materially and politically from that regime were grateful for her stand. The world was a very different place fifty years later in 1776 and 1789.

Bradley Lehman wrote (April 16, 2008):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< I'm not sure that history is served by the image of bogeyman Jesuits swarming over Saxony. The Lutheran settlement was established and demanded conformity with civic and ecclesiatical penalties. Clergy were the monitors of this orthodoxy and maintained visitations which were judicial inquisitions. Even Luther was hardly a promoter of the freedom of relgious conscience -- his writings against the Jews are primarily arguments against their refusal to see things his way. >
Going off-topic, but there *is* an interesting hymn that came out of the 17^th century Jesuit evangelization of the natives of Toronto and its environs. They came in with one of their own hymn tunes, and made up a text that was supposed to connect with the natives' own tribal imagery about God, and then gently steering them toward Jesus. It's #17a and #17b here: http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/misc/fillette.htm

To get at that, I worked my way through some 100+ year old library book in French, whose name I don't remember at the moment, but it was in my notes at the time.... It was about the Jesuits' missionary adventures there.

But, the hymn continues to be in hymnals today, usually with the bowdlerized 19^th century retranslations such as "Twas in the moon of wintertime", or indexed as "Huron Carol". And Bach used the related chorale melody (the one the Jesuits brought over before changing it) in cantatas BWV 73 and BWV 107, and the Ascension Oratorio BWV 11, and the organ setting BWV 658.

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 16, 2008):
Introduction to BWV 198 OFF TOPIC

Bradley Lehman wrote:
< But, the hymn continues to be in hymnals today, usually with the bowdlerized 19^th century retranslations such as "Twas in the moon of wintertime", or indexed as "Huron Carol". And Bach used the related chorale melody (the one the Jesuits brought over before changing it) in cantatas BWV 73 and BWV 107, and the Ascension Oratorio BWV 11, and the organ setting BWV 658. >
Didn't Charpentier use that tune, "Une Jeune Pucelle," as one of the motifs in the Messe du Minuit?

Bradley Lehman wrote (April 16, 2008):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Didn't Charpentier use that tune, "Une Jeune Pucelle," as one of the motifs in the Messe du Minuit? >
Yes, and in his little mass that uses other instruments "instead of the organ", too. I found more than 100 settings of it by various composers.

This puts me into the mood to listen to Eustace du Caurroy's consort settings of it right now...if I could remember which CD they're on!

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 16, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski, Chris Rowson & Douglas Cowling] When I studied History of Theology at Fuller, my reading produced very little that would have suggested the actions of women recorded would have had much political influence, let alone changed anything that would have amounted to advancement for women. This is a general statement. If this woman was included in the history of theology it was usually only a line or two in passing.

If she was included in my textbooks which I sold when I retired, my guess is that the emphasis would have been on her stronghold to Lutheranism as her birth and spiritual heritage. Since the marriage endured I'm inclined to think that Augustus the Strong must not have thought any consequences coming from such a decision to be major.

When I have time to analyze the whole score later this summer I will come back to your last question, but I asked a professor friend at ASU what he thought, and he said Bach was deeply and kindly disposed to this woman and it shows in the music. That's a paraphrase, but you get the idea.

Bradley Lehman wrote (April 16, 2008):
< This puts me into the mood to listen to Eustace du Caurroy's consort settings of it right now...if I could remember which CD they're on! >
Aha, here it is, track 24: Amazon.com
along with three other settings roughly contemporary with it, 1576-1616.

My mistake, it might not be in the Charpentier "messe pour plusieurs instruments au lieu des orgues" after all; I'm not sure. I was mis-remembering across from Charpentier's "noels pour les instruments", where it's definitely included. Both that and the Midnight Mass are well done in this delightful disc by the Boston Camerata:
Amazon.com

Carry on.

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (April 17, 2008):
BWV 198 OFF TOPIC---Alto Aria and Ken Burns

I have never been a fan of the Ken Burns documentaries that go on forever. In fact I have never watched them but caught snippets of some of them here and there by accidentally having the tele on and leaving it on. Having said that, every time since his Civil War documentary, when I listen to the alto aria of this sui generis cantata, the theme played by the pair of viole da gamba (if only English or rather Italian had a "dual"!) very much puts me in mind of a theme that was used in KB's Civil War. I don't know whether he actually employed Bach's vdaG writing or whether he was just using generic vdaG music.

I am sure that others have noticed this resemblance before.

Anyway,

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (April 17, 2008):
on-topic joke

Sorry, if this offends anyone. One can always ignore. I however am deeply struck by my own sense of humor in the present case and am only intent on bringing some joviality to anyone who may share my sense of humor and simultaneously be a Bach-devoté(e).

While listening to the Ricercar Consort's recording [16] of BWV 198 (the cantata which I personally have more recordings of than any other),I recalled that, when I first posted on that recording when it appeared, another lister found it too anemic vel sim bc. of the OVPP chorus.

Personally I have no doctrinaire viewpoint on OVPP. If it works, it works; if it don't, it don't. For me it works on this recording of this work gloriously.

Anyway I had come to listen to the recording tonight after shutting the debate of the two Democratic candidates (couldn't take it no more, no more) but then I recalled that Hillary said to Barack that, IF they sang Bach OVPP in my church.....

That's it,

Chris Rowson wrote (April 17, 2008):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< This description is a tad on the polemical side. . >
More ignorant than polemical, I´m afraid, Doug. Or not historically informed - I´m no historian, I was just doing my best because this aspect didn´t seem to have been covered here.

I do think the queen was very much perceived by the public - rightly or wrongly - as protecting them from being forced into Catholicism. This perception persists even in present-day Dresden. The building of the Frauenkirche was also associated with her, and that towering dome was very much an assertion of independence from, if not defiance of, August´s Catholicism.

It is significant that it was not possible to hold the major act of public mourning for this very popular Queen in her own capital city.

BWV 198 is a very special cantata, and I think these circumstances explain why.

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 17, 2008):
[To Chris Rowson] I am very glad that you shared your perspective Chris. When you've lived where people still discuss these things you have first-hand knowledge of how the matter exists in people's mind's even today. Those of us who have the little knowledge of this cantata that we have gained only recently are enriched by the experiences and opinions of others. I would like to see more of your detailed thoughts on the cantatas in the future. History is a compound/complex matter and the post that you gave us provides the kind of detail that would encourage one to read further on this topic in the future.

William Hoffman wrote (April 17, 2008):
[To Douglas Cowling] William Hoffman replies to the most recent posting that gives me a reply opportunity:

I have just finished reading the first two chapter's of Carol Baron's recent book, Bach's Changing World: Voices in the Comunity, Univ. of Rochester Press, 2006. As editor, she also is author of the first two chapters, 1. "Transitions, Transformations, Reversals: Rethinking Bach's World," and 2, "Tumultuous Philosophers, Pious Rebels, Revolutionary Teachers, Pedantic Clerics, Vengeful Bureaucrats, Threatened Tyrants, Worldly Mystics: The Religious World Bach Inherited." The titles themselves tell a lot. My initital impression is that Bach's Time and World was an incredible era of ferment and he was right in the thick of it. Major currents included, of couse, the Enlightenment, Lutherans involved in three directions (Orthodoxy, Pietism, and Reform), and Protestant and Catholic finding common ground and accomodation thru Rationalism, Absolutism, Skepticism, and Heterdoxy.

Here's the concluding paragraph of Chapter 2 (p.73f): "By focusing on the variety of shared religious, philosophical, and spiritual experiences Bach's community shared, this essay attempts to facilitate entry into that vortex of flux and fusions. It encourages the reader to compare the complexities in Bach's world to the disparate religious parameters in our own. Beyond that, this essay presents the view of a complex world that was worthy because of its multifaceted aspirations and enthusiasms, of the monumentally great musician who made his way there." I would add: ...and who was profoundly influenced by all of it and in turn left a towering legacy that endures and enlivens all posterity.

Jean Laaninen wrote (April 17, 2008):
[To William Hoffman] The very titles of these chapters are simply astounding. This is one book I am going to add to my reading list.

Chris Rowson wrote (April 17, 2008):
BWV 198-3 (Mvt. 3)

I wrote:
>So what do you think about taking the whole of the Soprano aria BWV 198/3 (Mvt. 3) in triplet rhythms, Ed?<
And Ed Myskowski replied:
"To be responsive, a quick look at a couple references (Whittaker, BWV, no score at hand), and a listen to Scherchen [1], indicate that the triplet phrases are intended to provide contrast, and Scherchen plays the aria exactly that way. Does anyone take the entire aria in triplet rhythms?
I´ve not heard it done in triplets, other than in my imagination. I also haven´t seen a score of the cantata other than the V&P available here. It just struck me when I looked at it like one of those cases where everybody reads it according to 20^th century conventions and never wonders about it.

But when I read the score it just seems to me to be crying out for triplets throughout. So then I wonder how JSB would have notated that if he had intended it, and think, "Well, like this". Whereas reading it according to the 20^th C convention (as the recordings apparently do) gives an effect which I find limping, with that perpetual backwards and forwards between twos and threes.

For example, it flows so beautifully in bars 5 to 8 that it seems a terrible shame to play pedantically "egal" in bars 10 to 15, and then to find disjointed triplets in bars 16 and 17, before the flow is resumed in bar 18. It seems like a fight.

Admittedly, the later text does indeed speak of vanished peace and of strife, but did JSB intend to word-paint that when he wrote the Trauerode? And if so, what do the lyrically flowing triplets represent? And Gottsched´s original text has in any case a very different message, speaking of "lovely lyres".

Julian Mincham wrote (April 17, 2008):
[To Chris Rowson] There are good examples of Bach's playing with the 2 and 3 groupings within a particular movement and the tensions that they produce. One of my farourites is the first movement of the Fm keyboard concerto. The opening bars are stolidly 2/4 with a bass line constructed from a repeated figure thus---quaver, two semi-quavers and then two more qu. Half way through the (lengthy) ritornello the main melodic line becomes a stream of continuous triplets which dominate much of the rest of the movement. However the foursquare bass figure is also retained throughout creating a delicious rhythmic tension between the outer parts, most notably in the climactic section near the end over a repeated dominant pedal. I think that Bach is also deliberately playing with the 2 against 3 rhythmic groupings in this aria from BWV 198 and, in this case at least, I don't see any need to assume an archaic form of notation which is intended to convey something different from what is actually written on the page.

A final point about the Fm concerto is the subtle, almost throw-away reference to the triplet grouping at the end of the first phrase, a masterpiece of compositional skill (and artistic judgement) in preparing the listener for what is to come later.

Lissette Jimenez wrote (April 17, 2008):
[To Jean Laaninen] I know, right? I'm building my Bach library, and it's great to see a positive review of a new book pertaining to Bach.

Thanks for the recommendation

Nessie (Anne) Russell wrote (April 17, 2008):
[To Yoël L. Arbeitman, regarding jok] I don't get it. I think only Americans would get it.

Neil Halliday wrote (April 17, 2008):
Chris Rowson wrote:
> I´ve not heard it done in triplets, other than in my imagination. I also haven´t seen a score of the cantata other than the V&P available here. It just struck me when I looked at it like one of those cases where everybody reads it according to 20^th century conventions and never wonders about it.<
Give this a try (for access to the BGA, if you have acrobat reader): http://www.kantate.info/BG/BGA_BWV198.pdf

No convention there (20^th C or otherwise), it's obviously written as Bach intended it to be played.

Bars 28-30 in particular make this clear (or rather, one can see there is no possibility of a 'convention' applying); after two beats of 'duplets', the violin I line is specifically written in continuous triplets, while the voice part, with 1/16^th notes, remains "egal".

In bar 9, the strings fall silent (thus obeying the text - the OCC refers to this as a "Bachian pun"); the continuo has a solidly 'square' rhythm (albeit syncopated); perhaps Bach does not wish the violins to sound too 'lively' staightaway.

[The situation with the dotted notes in the choral parts of the 1^st movement is less certain; having been made aware of it, I think (though not sure yet) I like Rilling's approach [6] (dotting all the vocal as well as the instrumental parts].

Terejia wrote (April 17, 2008):
First, I thought I could postpone my own comment to next week, but then I remembered this is the last week to have Jean as our discussion leader.

I consider this to be superb example of h-moll cantata. Somehow, I find my favorite pieces in this particular key. It might be a special key for this greatly admired composor, though I lack in academic knowledge.

Neil Halliday wrote:
< Th 1/16^th note string motive in the 1^st recitative appears in the > accompaniment of the following soprano aria, which has affecting > chromatic melismas on "Schmezenswort" ("painful word"). Scherchen [1] gives the violin I part to a solo violin. Rilling [6] is a bit fast and unaffecting. Gardiner probably has one of the finest recordings of this aria (not to ignore the others). >
which just reminds me of terzet by soprano-tenor-alto/solo-violin in BWV 248 Part 5, BWV 244 "Erbarme Dich", (just a subjective association): http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/27352

I enjoyed your beautiful inspirational writing at the beginning paragraph in the post.

Terejia wrote (April 17, 2008):
belated thank you to Julian

Julian Mincham wrote:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/27344
Thank you for your information, Julian. I will look for BWV 135 CD and come back to this interesting topic
later.

Julian Mincham wrote (April 17, 2008):
[To Terejia] Cheers?? Let me know what you think of it.?

Peter Smaill wrote (April 17, 2008):
[To Terejia] A very interesting thought and observatiuon regarding this work - is B minor a key special to Bach? Both this and the B minor Mass (BWV 232) were dedicated or gifted to the Saxon royal house.

The B Minor Mass however does not much work for this possibility. It was never so called by Bach and in point of fact the bulk of it is in the relative major key, i.e. D major.

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 17, 2008):
Peter Smaill wrote:
< The B Minor Mass (BWV 232) however does not much work for this possibility. It was never so called by Bach and in point of fact the bulk of it is in the relative major key, i.e. D major. >
It's interesting that Bach never gave the B Minor (BWV 232) a title: the title page merely lists the names of the principal sections. The Bach family refrred to it as "The Great Catholic Mass" as it called the St. Matthew (BWV 244), "The Great Passion" (or Big Passion)

John Pike wrote (April 17, 2008):
[To Terejia] An interesting thought. I'm very fond of the first violin and harpsichord sonata in B minor, but then I love them all!

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 20, 2008):
BWV 198 recordings

The recording by Thomas/American Bach soloists [10] is worthy of special mention, see comments by Aryeh from the first cycle discussions. I expect to have the well-received Ricercar [16] for comparison soon. In the meantime, the Thomas alto movements (Mvt. 4 and Mvt. 5) strike me as especially outstanding, Mvt. 4 for the delicate expression of the pealing of bells, Mvt. 5 for the crisp 12/8 rhythm, and both for the vocals by Judith Malafronte. Not to be missed, for those who enjoy a female alto (and to be avoided for exactly that reason, if a counter-tenor is your requirement). The entire performance shows clear textures and balance, with the special instrumentation (gambas and lutes) articulated throughout. The 12/8 dance character of the closing chorus (Mvt. 10) is emphasized, as pointed out by William Hoffman

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the stimulating discussion of this work, and of the recordings. For me, its special character came out by considering it in chronology, and in relation to the Passions, especially first SMP (BWV 244) of April 1727.

Stephen Benson wrote (April 21, 2008):
Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
< I do not feel the final chorus dissatisfying at all. For me the dance-like music expresses the idea that the dead princess will always be there in the memory of her people and be their joy and proudness. >
I just wanted to throw my hat in with Thérèse and the few others who find the dance-like quality central to their appreciation of the final chorus (Mvt. 10). The rocking triplet rhythm, the lilting upward punctuation at the end of each phrase, the arching melodic line that follows---all those musical elements carrying a text proclaiming "Thou shalt not die!" and testifying to Christiane Eberhardine’s "joy and fame" produce a chorus that, to me, is a celebration and affirmation of the life of the deceased princess. This kind of thinking, I would suggest, does not take place in a vacuum. I doubt that anyone who has experienced the ecstatic outpouring of life through music at the end of a New Orleans jazz funeral can question its legitior authenticity.

I am also quite taken with the resemblances between this chorus and the rondo finale of Beethoven's Piano Sonata Op. 10, No. 3. Here we find the same upward inflection at the end of three-note figures (not triplets, but three-note figures nevertheless) followed by an arching line of a remarkably similar melodic shape. It's almost as if Beethoven has condensed, at a time when he was actively experimenting with concentrating themes and ideas, the essential elements of Bach's entire chorus into the rondo's first four measures. That the sonata was dedicated to the Countess Margarete von Browne, wife of one of his aristocratic Viennese patrons, makes the correspondences even more intriguing.

198 and which passion!!!!

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (May 19, 2008):
One of our announcers speaking of some forthcoming program (i didn't pay attention) said of BWV 198 that it encapsulates the essence of the Saint John Passion.

Whatever,

John Pike wrote (May 19, 2008):
[To Yoël L. Arbeitman] I'm sure he meant the St Mark passion (music lost). It is now generally accepted that Bach used the same music in both works.

Aryeh Oron wrote (May 19, 2008):
[To Yoël L. Arbeitman] John is of course correct.
The info is also presented at the main page of Cantata BWV 198.
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV198.htm
Most recordings of Markus-Passion BWV 247 use the reconstruction of Diethard Hellmann, based on 5 Mvts. from BWV 198, among others.
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV247.htm

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (May 20, 2008):
Yes, Aryeh and John, I knew what he meant. Did he know what he meant? The trouble is that these announcers are not necessary for the informed. They mislead those who would like to be informed. Not all of us come from homes, let's say, where our parents hand on such knowledge. Many of us, I as a younger person when I was, depend for our education on such announcers and, when they do not do their homework but simply state something they vaguely remember, they are doing an ill-service.

That's my two cents.

As to recreating the Markus, I think that's an awful idea personally. Recently I relistened the Lukas and was very moved by it. I find it to have wonderful music and, if we forget to compare Bach, it is a very satisfying work.

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 20, 2008):
Yoel wrote:
>I knew what he meant. Did he know what he meant?<
Perhaps he did, and he simply misspoke? Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, who can keep track? Not so easy to go back and fix a mistake on the radio, not as simple as posting a correction on BCML.

Personally, I am much more concerned with the BBC hyperbole, which appears intentional.

Anyway, it just goes to show, you cant trust anyone anymore. Especially radio.

Cantata BWV 198: Complete Recordings | Recordings of Individual Movements | Discussions: Part 1 | Part 2

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